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Cjg

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I wonder why there is no boost in test from lowering the estrogen.....
 
StatePlan1425

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I'd be curious what your E2 levels will be 30 days from now? A lingering question about Letrone is MOA, that is, is it suicidal or not. Thanks for your investments thus far in labs.
 
ahh123

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I like how this topic finally gave us few blood work results so it justified it's creation.

Too bad most blood work is just for same few products and not much else.

So in summary currently blood work showed:
1) Letrone can drop E2 levels but total testosterone not go up - even when E2 drops significantly where we'd expect total testosterone to go up
2) Viron not raise total testosterone and probably only work on increasing free testosterone

Correct me if I'm wrong about these summary or if something else was worthy to add based on current blood work posted.
 
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ucheoma

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I think it's probably saying something about other products not having bloodwork brought forward
 
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conkertheking

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I wonder why there is no boost in test from lowering the estrogen.....
Prolactin. I am absolutely convinced that despite being within the normal lab range, a prolactin level of >220 is not healthy for a young man. And it's widely stated that prolactin will suppress HPTA function - apparently, it suppresses the HPTA more strongly than an E2 deficiency boosts it.
 
brundel

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Prolactin is possibly the culprit with regards to test levels staying static.
Its hard to say though.

I have seen dozens of labs that showed a rise in testosterone levels concurrent to the drop in estrogen directly related to AI administration indicating that the rise in test was caused by the drop in estro. Im not sure this is even debatable but we have seen a couple of labs now where total T did not rise.
Could be that HPTA function in these specific guys is compromised and its just a coincidence that consecutive labs showed similar results. For example, there was another set of labs posted on this forum where the subject was taking clomid, an AI and several supposed OTC test boosters and his test level did not rise even 1 point which means either 100% of the 10 products he was taking were bunk (possible) or his HPTA is damaged beyond repair which, unfortunately, is more common among AAS users than most like to believe. MOST of the long term AAS users I know are on lifetime HRT as a result of perma HPTA damage.
As more labs trickle in we will have more info to compare and asses.

For now at least you guys have viable proof that Letrone kicks the )(*&# out of estrogen as intended and that thyroid function also appears to be stimulated which reflects animal studies that showed increases in thyroid function, HGH, IGF-1, cAMP, and ghrelin.
 
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conkertheking

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Prolactin is possibly the culprit with regards to test levels staying static.
Its hard to say though.

I have seen dozens of labs that showed a rise in testosterone levels concurrent to the drop in estrogen directly related to AI administration indicating that the rise in test was caused by the drop in estro. Im not sure this is even debatable but we have seen a couple of labs now where total T did not rise.
Could be that HPTA function in these specific guys is compromised and its just a coincidence that consecutive labs showed similar results. For example, there was another set of labs posted on this forum where the subject was taking clomid, an AI and several supposed OTC test boosters and his test level did not rise even 1 point which means either 100% of the 10 products he was taking were bunk (possible) or his HPTA is damaged beyond repair which, unfortunately, is more common among AAS users than most like to believe. MOST of the long term AAS users I know are on lifetime HRT as a result of perma HPTA damage.
As more labs trickle in we will have more info to compare and asses.

For now at least you guys have viable proof that Letrone kicks the )(*&# out of estrogen as intended and that thyroid function also appears to be stimulated which reflects animal studies that showed increases in thyroid function, HGH, IGF-1, cAMP, and ghrelin.
I've never done AAS in my life so obviously I sincerely hope that permanent HPTA damage is not the cause in my specific case. The fact that my total T is always at least 3 or 4 points above the bottom of the range despite LH and FSH being literally on the border line of being too low indicates that I actually have a fairly hard-working pair of nuts, if only they would be told to work harder by the brain.
I did have a condition known as hydrocephalus for a year as a teenager, which involves raised intracranial pressure. There's a fear at the back of my mind that this may have done some damage to the hypothalamus or pituitary, but if that was the case would I not be properly shut down, as opposed to simply being at the low end of normal? My neurosurgeon has seen several MRI and CT scans, and assured me at the time that he didn't think I'd suffered any permanent brain damage. Plus, I had one lab result where my LH managed to get up to something like 4.8, and total testosterone was 16nmol which is 3 points higher than it has ever been on any other test. So I'm holding out hope that I don't actually have HPTA damage and that there's something else which is f*cking it up, something hopefully manageable. :)

Even when I had prolactin levels of 170 on a previous blood test, people here were still telling me that this was borderline high prolactin for a guy. So I can only imagine that 230 is a lot worse. It's certainly the most obvious thing to target during the next cycle, so IMO I'll wait to see what happens with that. If I manage to find a supp combo which actually does dramatically reduce my prolactin levels on a blood test and still doesn't improve gonadotropin levels, then I'll worry. But not until then. :D
 
rtmilburn

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I've never done AAS in my life so obviously I sincerely hope that permanent HPTA damage is not the cause in my specific case. The fact that my total T is always at least 3 or 4 points above the bottom of the range despite LH and FSH being literally on the border line of being too low indicates that I actually have a fairly hard-working pair of nuts, if only they would be told to work harder by the brain.
I did have a condition known as hydrocephalus for a year as a teenager, which involves raised intracranial pressure. There's a fear at the back of my mind that this may have done some damage to the hypothalamus or pituitary, but if that was the case would I not be properly shut down, as opposed to simply being at the low end of normal? My neurosurgeon has seen several MRI and CT scans, and assured me at the time that he didn't think I'd suffered any permanent brain damage. Plus, I had one lab result where my LH managed to get up to something like 4.8, and total testosterone was 16nmol which is 3 points higher than it has ever been on any other test. So I'm holding out hope that I don't actually have HPTA damage and that there's something else which is f*cking it up, something hopefully manageable. :)

Even when I had prolactin levels of 170 on a previous blood test, people here were still telling me that this was borderline high prolactin for a guy. So I can only imagine that 230 is a lot worse. It's certainly the most obvious thing to target during the next cycle, so IMO I'll wait to see what happens with that. If I manage to find a supp combo which actually does dramatically reduce my prolactin levels on a blood test and still doesn't improve gonadotropin levels, then I'll worry. But not until then. :D
There is a good amount of evidence that cabergoline can help restore test to normal levels. I would look into using either parmi or caber for 3 or months. I wouldn't rely on natural prolactin inhibitors for something like this.
 
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conkertheking

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There is a good amount of evidence that cabergoline can help restore test to normal levels. I would look into using either parmi or caber for 3 or months. I wouldn't rely on natural prolactin inhibitors for something like this.
Trouble is that because I'm within the lab range my doc probably won't prescribe anything, and I'm in a country (Ireland) with fairly strict customs controls by the medicine board - not sure I'd fancy my chances trying to import research chems. So I want to exhaust OTC options before I go down that road, if possible.
 
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Out of interest, has there ever been any bloodwork posted for SNS Inhibit-P? I'm well aware of the debate around combining L-DOPA and P5P in the same supplement, but I'm very interested in the idea of using Vitex as a dopamine agonist, would be interesting to see if this has worked for anyone else. Would consider combining it at one cap per day with Prolactrone at one cap per day, to get the best of both worlds.
 
StatePlan1425

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Curious as well. I've read the threads/debates. Would be great to see the labs.
 
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Extreemjase

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Hey everyone, here is my blood work a few months after pct,
Can anyone tell me if my levels are good?

ImageUploadedByAnabolicMinds1448917731.598207.jpg
 
fueledpassion

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Here are my past 3 Bloodworks too



Bloodwork 1

TT-998

Free T- 40

E2- 11

LH-0.1

FSH- 0.2



Bloodwork 2

TT-999

Free T-450

E2-25

LH- 1.1

FSH-1.2



Bloodwork 3

TT- 1,000

Free T- 500

E2- 0

LH- 10

FSH -5

Crazy bro!

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Just Kidding,
We can all post numbers. Pictures!
View attachment 123671
(Example not mine)
That looks about like Test-E @ 300mg/wk for me...
 
fueledpassion

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Out of interest, has there ever been any bloodwork posted for SNS Inhibit-P? I'm well aware of the debate around combining L-DOPA and P5P in the same supplement, but I'm very interested in the idea of using Vitex as a dopamine agonist, would be interesting to see if this has worked for anyone else. Would consider combining it at one cap per day with Prolactrone at one cap per day, to get the best of both worlds.
To boost Testosterone or to control Prolactin?

For a natty stack testosterone boost, I'd just go with a raw form of Mucuna Pruriens + ZMA + Vit D3. Take it all in the evening and you will be just fine in both departments (Test and Prolactin)
 
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I was on test e 500mg a week for 8 weeks, then 4 weeks pct with Clomid. These test results were about 2 1/2 - 3 months after.
 
fueledpassion

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I was on test e 500mg a week for 8 weeks, then 4 weeks pct with Clomid. These test results were about 2 1/2 - 3 months after.
On second thought it may not be high after all. But usually I would expect LH & FSH to be on the low side if the body was finally normalized. Something between 1-3 is typical I believe but this value could probably change even on a day by day basis depending on diet, sleep pattern, etc.
 
stespiel

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i just ordered bloodwork for pre cycle. will post once i have mid-cycle bloodwork too. i'm running 6 weeks of purus halovar.
 
UncleSarm

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With all the cycles people are doing, it's a little disappointing to see so few labs posted here, as it would be very informative. This also makes me wonder how someone can reliably comment on the effect of a compound. For example Joe does a cycle of Compound A, standard PCT, and time off = time on + PCT. Then he decides to do a cycle with Compound B, which is considered mildly suppressive. After a week or two he quits because he feels like crap and totally shut down. All of a sudden Compound B, anecdotally has become highly suppressive. If Joe had started with test levels of 900 and Compound B reduced test by 200 points, Joe would not have noticed the test drop, but if Joe was at 350 (just above the clinically deficient line but still feeling fine) a 200 point drop would put him well into low test territory. As Joe didn't do bloods before his cycle, his experience is not reliable for someone with normal test levels.
I understand that costs for bloods can add up, but it's like doing a cycle without at minimum having Nolva and an AI on hand.
 
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Can anyone help me interpret these results? In the lab notes, they just say that everything is "normal."


TESTOSTERONE 10.0 nmol/L 7.6 - 31.4
17-Beta OESTRADIOL 104 pmol/L < 192
 
rtmilburn

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Can anyone help me interpret these results? In the lab notes, they just say that everything is "normal."


TESTOSTERONE 10.0 nmol/L 7.6 - 31.4
17-Beta OESTRADIOL 104 pmol/L < 192
Well there really isn't any else to say other than everything is normal, with just those numbers. As test is lower but in normal range as well your e2.

What are you wanting to know?????Are you have any symptoms that you are trying to figure out?

Honestly though to really be able to determine anything you need to get much more than just test and e2 levels. Such as free test, bioavailable test, SHBG, dhea, dhea-s, e2, prolactin, LH, FSH, and prolactin levels. That is also just the tip of the spear as other hormomes can effect those values. Things like FULL thyriod panel and also need to know thing like cortisol levels, pregenalone levels, and vitamin D levels. Even then there can be other factors that effect those levels like lyme disease and other illnesses, and SOOO much more. The endocrine is so complex that just 2 values/hormones mean almost nothing especially when they are within normal range.
 
rascal14

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Well there really isn't any else to say other than everything is normal, with just those numbers. As test is lower but in normal range as well your e2.

What are you wanting to know?????Are you have any symptoms that you are trying to figure out?

Honestly though to really be able to determine anything you need to get much more than just test and e2 levels. Such as free test, bioavailable test, SHBG, dhea, dhea-s, e2, prolactin, LH, FSH, and prolactin levels. That is also just the tip of the spear as other hormomes can effect those values. Things like FULL thyriod panel and also need to know thing like cortisol levels, pregenalone levels, and vitamin D levels. Even then there can be other factors that effect those levels like lyme disease and other illnesses, and SOOO much more. The endocrine is so complex that just 2 values/hormones mean almost nothing especially when they are within normal range.
It's a shame it takes multiple doctors for a lot of people for them to find one who understands that.
 
rtmilburn

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It's a shame it takes multiple doctors for a lot of people for them to find one who understands that.
Yes it really is!!! Most doctors just don't understand hpta at all. Quite a bit of endocrine doctor don't even get it. So it can really be a struggle to find a good doctor to figure whats actually wrong. That's why even people that get on trt, still feel like crap or only feel good for a little bit; as they aren't treating the real problem/s but are just masking them.

Edit:
P.s. I'm not claiming I'm a doctor or know more than any doctor. If i were to be trying to diagnose you I would have no clue, at least at this point in my life. Also you should follow any advice that is given to you by your doctor. However, don't hesitate to get a second opinion; as there are a LOT of quack doctors. Any opinion i give is my education deduction of what MIGHT be wrong and is not by any means actually medical advice.
 
brundel

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Can anyone help me interpret these results? In the lab notes, they just say that everything is "normal."


TESTOSTERONE 10.0 nmol/L 7.6 - 31.4
17-Beta OESTRADIOL 104 pmol/L < 192
Test is low and estro is mid range.
I agree that more testing is required, however, test is low regardless.
Why is the question and more tests may reveal a cause.
We also know nothing about you.
Could be you just ran a cycle
Could be your on a medication that is causing this such as ssri or opiates.
 
vujade

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REBIRTH PCT RESULTS

I ran a 2nd 10 week cycle last year of Ostarine & Stano.

My PCT consisted of

Rebirth - 2 caps a day for 8 weeks
Viron - 2 caps a day for 8 weeks
Letrone - 1 cap a day for 8 weeks

The cycle ended in the middle of November and PCT ended in the middle of January.

So its been 2 months since PCT was over and i had bloodwork done, because i wanted to
see if the PCT was a success or not, especially since its been 2 months since PCT was over.

My test levels came back at 556, which is over 100 points higher then after my previous PCT
from the 1st cycle i did last year when i logged Rebirth. You can see the results of that PCT here...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/265587-vujades-blr-rebirth.html

So I am happy to report that Rebirth has for a fact made me fully recover a 2nd time, and
this time, my test levels are even higher then they've been in years. My test levels were in
the low 400's 12 years ago. So to have them at 556 at 46 years old, without the use of any
drugs, I'm pretty excited..!

brundel
halfhuman

BW2.jpg


E2 got cut off, but it was 25. The range is 7.6 yo 42.6, so Im right in the middle.
 
dustter

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Are we looking for legal anabolic bloods here or for bloods after any type of natty or AAS cycles?

I have bloods right now pre- anavar/test that im on now
 
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CJNator

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Are we looking for legal anabolic bloods here or for bloods after any type of natty or AAS cycles?

I have bloods right now pre- anavar/test that im on now
Bloods for anything claiming to manipulate hormone levels.
 
UncleSarm

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I ran a 2nd 10 week cycle last year of Ostarine & Stano.

My PCT consisted of

Rebirth - 2 caps a day for 8 weeks
Viron - 2 caps a day for 8 weeks
Letrone - 1 cap a day for 8 weeks

The cycle ended in the middle of November and PCT ended in the middle of January.

So its been 2 months since PCT was over and i had bloodwork done, because i wanted to
see if the PCT was a success or not, especially since its been 2 months since PCT was over.

My test levels came back at 556, which is over 100 points higher then after my previous PCT
from the 1st cycle i did last year when i logged Rebirth. You can see the results of that PCT here...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/265587-vujades-blr-rebirth.html

So I am happy to report that Rebirth has for a fact made me fully recover a 2nd time, and
this time, my test levels are even higher then they've been in years. My test levels were in
the low 400's 12 years ago. So to have them at 556 at 46 years old, without the use of any
drugs, I'm pretty excited..!


brundel

halfhuman

View attachment 133128

E2 got cut off, but it was 25. The range is 7.6 yo 42.6, so Im right in the middle.
I did my PCT with Rebirth and will post my post-cycle bloods values once I receive the response from the lab. Excited to see what Osta and Rebirth did.
 
brundel

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I did my PCT with Rebirth and will post my post-cycle bloods values once I receive the response from the lab. Excited to see what Osta and Rebirth did.
You used Osta for a PCT?
 
UncleSarm

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I ran a 2nd 10 week cycle last year of Ostarine & Stano.

My PCT consisted of

Rebirth - 2 caps a day for 8 weeks
Viron - 2 caps a day for 8 weeks
Letrone - 1 cap a day for 8 weeks

The cycle ended in the middle of November and PCT ended in the middle of January.

So its been 2 months since PCT was over and i had bloodwork done, because i wanted to
see if the PCT was a success or not, especially since its been 2 months since PCT was over.

My test levels came back at 556, which is over 100 points higher then after my previous PCT
from the 1st cycle i did last year when i logged Rebirth. You can see the results of that PCT here...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/265587-vujades-blr-rebirth.html

So I am happy to report that Rebirth has for a fact made me fully recover a 2nd time, and
this time, my test levels are even higher then they've been in years. My test levels were in
the low 400's 12 years ago. So to have them at 556 at 46 years old, without the use of any
drugs, I'm pretty excited..!


brundel

halfhuman

View attachment 133128

E2 got cut off, but it was 25. The range is 7.6 yo 42.6, so Im right in the middle.
I did my PCT with Rebirth and will post my post-cycle bloods values once I receive the response from the lab. Excited to see what Osta and Rebirth did.
I finally got my post-cycle blood values. You can see them in my log: First Osta cycle
On the first post you can see all three bloods taken pre-cycle, pre-PCT, and post cycle for easier comparison.
vujade my test was also at 557 pre-cycle at 46 years old!
 
brundel

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If I remember correctly your post Rebirth PCT test levels were HIGHER than pre cycle levels. Is this correct?
So.... your HPTA was in better shape after PCT using Rebirth than it was before you ran a cycle at all. Pretty impressive for an OTC SERM.
 
UncleSarm

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If I remember correctly your post Rebirth PCT test levels were HIGHER than pre cycle levels. Is this correct?
So.... your HPTA was in better shape after PCT using Rebirth than it was before you ran a cycle at all. Pretty impressive for an OTC SERM.
No, that was vujade. Mine were 100 points lower after 4 weeks of Rebirth. Maybe I should have gone for 6-8 weeks, but still, my test levels quadrupled in that short time.
 
rtmilburn

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No, that was vujade. Mine were 100 points lower after 4 weeks of Rebirth. Maybe I should have gone for 6-8 weeks, but still, my test levels quadrupled in that short time.
Well I'm not justify rebirth nor slamming it, but 4 weeks isn't enough time to see full result with any serm. IMO 6 is optimal, as that is the most studied time frame, at least with clomid(I could be wrong but most studies I HAVE seen are 6 weeks). Even after a 6-8 weeks on a serm, isn't enough time to see if the HPTA is fully restored(again just my opinion based on studies and people smarter than me). Even if numbers are great, that could just be because of the serm. That why some people recommend bloods 4 to 6 weeks after PCT. Also being only 4 weeks post cycle bloods being a hundred points lower isn't that bad. As it takes more time to recover. Also that isn't uncommon to be lower even with a traditional PCT(when taken right after), it is also not uncommon to be higher than before as there is still assistants from serm. Your numbers still could be climbing up.

Also did you get bloods after cycle but before PCT? How suppressed were you? As ostarine tends to shutdown testosterone but not effect LH and FSH as much as typical steroids. Which should make PCT a little easier and that rebirth isn't that effective. Although idk I think rebirth IS the best OTC option. However, to form a proper opinion about, if it's good enough to replace traditional serms; we need to send more blood work.

P.S. Please correct me on anything. I could be wrong/misinformed. Also I am interested in hearing about other experiences with rebirth.
 
UncleSarm

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Well I'm not justify rebirth nor slamming it, but 4 weeks isn't enough time to see full result with any serm. IMO 6 is optimal, as that is the most studied time frame, at least with clomid(I could be wrong but most studies I HAVE seen are 6 weeks). Even after a 6-8 weeks on a serm, isn't enough time to see if the HPTA is fully restored(again just my opinion based on studies and people smarter than me). Even if numbers are great, that could just be because of the serm. That why some people recommend bloods 4 to 6 weeks after PCT. Also being only 4 weeks post cycle bloods being a hundred points lower isn't that bad. As it takes more time to recover. Also that isn't uncommon to be lower even with a traditional PCT(when taken right after), it is also not uncommon to be higher than before as there is still assistants from serm. Your numbers still could be climbing up.

Also did you get bloods after cycle but before PCT? How suppressed were you? As ostarine tends to shutdown testosterone but not effect LH and FSH as much as typical steroids. Which should make PCT a little easier and that rebirth isn't that effective. Although idk I think rebirth IS the best OTC option. However, to form a proper opinion about, if it's good enough to replace traditional serms; we need to send more blood work.

P.S. Please correct me on anything. I could be wrong/misinformed. Also I am interested in hearing about other experiences with rebirth.
No worries, glad to have this conversation. We all learn from exchanging knowledge and experience. I was just vocalizing the fact that I felt that the results in four week were pretty good, but knowing then what I know now, I would probably have gone a little longer. I would not have hurt to do so. I based my OTC PCT length on the traditional Nolva PCT recommended for Osta of 3-4 weeks.

Your analysis is pretty spot on. If you look at my log (First Osta cycle), I posted my bloods in the first post. You can see that I was suppressed and in the clinically deficient area, but not that bad really. And yes, LH and FSH in the middle of the normal range, which is why I chose to do an OTC PCT. Also my free test appeared to be within range due to low SHBG (based on the note from the lab).
As you mention, I am also hoping that my numbers are still rising. My post PCT bloods were taken on the day after the last dose of Rebirth. In vujade's case, his bloods were taken 8 weeks after an 8 week PCT, so 4 months total after his cycle. At the moment I am "benched", in the off-cycle period, but will take bloods again before doing another one, so it will be interesting to see what the levels are like in three months' time.
 
brundel

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I agree that 4 weeks is not usually long enough for full HPTA recovery. Especially when your a bit older.
Vujade ran labs at 4 weeks I believe and was not fully recovered so continued. After 8 things looked fantastic.
His LH was at the top end of the spectrum and test was higher than pre cycle.
SERMS work very well but they do take some time as its not an acute effect.
 
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Got my bloods taken. Anyone want to offer up some words? Everything look normal?
bludz.png
 
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sektelsnor

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Baseline from a few months ago

TESTOSTERONE 10.0 nmol/L 7.6 - 31.4
17-Beta OESTRADIOL 104 pmol/L < 192
 
NoAddedHmones

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Baseline from a few months ago

TESTOSTERONE 10.0 nmol/L 7.6 - 31.4
17-Beta OESTRADIOL 104 pmol/L < 192
So between your baseline results and your new results, what have you cycled, used etc?
 
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So between your baseline results and your new results, what have you cycled, used etc?
^This
oestradiol seems to have gone up a bit and is on the high side and Testosterone has also gone up a bit. Would be good to know anything you've been using in between
 
rtmilburn

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10 week osta 25mg 5mg clomid

pct 4 weeks of super pct and nolvadex at 30/20/10/10
Why would you used clomid on cycle?

It's not suited well for ON cycle for anything, as it's not very good at gyno prevention and is much better suited for HPTA restoration.

Ralox or Nova on cycle. Clomid, torem, or nolva pct. Although, if you use nolva on cycle don't use it for pct, unless you stack it with another serm.

However, I wouldn't recommend a serm on cycle at all just an AI. Unless you are using a very very estrogenic compound/s or are very very prone to gyno. Even then I recommend only ralox for on cycle but nolva works fine too but ralox is much better for on cycle.
 
rtmilburn

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10 week osta 25mg 5mg clomid

pct 4 weeks of super pct and nolvadex at 30/20/10/10
Also can you give a time frame. Like og blood work on x, then cycle x weeks later, than pct, then x weeks later post blood work.

As those will help tell your story much better
 
NoAddedHmones

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10 week osta 25mg 5mg clomid

pct 4 weeks of super pct and nolvadex at 30/20/10/10
Cool. Looking at it on the high level on the few numbers you provided, numbers look good, obviously cause your T is above base line from clomid your E rises in line. Once T balances off E should also fall.
 

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