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sektelsnor

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I'm an idiot. I wasn't taking clomid. I was taking exemestane. Baseline bloods are right before cycle and new bloods are right after. I intend to take new bloods 6 weeks from my last blood test.

Thanks for the help everyone.
 
justhere4comm

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subbed.
 
habajaba

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Curious... Thinking of getting bloodwork after my cycle of Epidrone + Sup3r-4. How many days after last dose should I go to get the rock bottom T numbers? I'd like to get that number and then another after PCT to see how much I recover. Unfortunately, I didn't do pre bloodwork, because I didn't realize I needed it at the time. If I could time travel, I'd do it. :)
 
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ryox82

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Curious... Thinking of getting bloodwork after my cycle of Epidrone + Sup3r-4. How many days after last dose should I go to get the rock bottom T numbers? I'd like to get that number and then another after PCT to see how much I recover. Unfortunately, I didn't do pre bloodwork, because I didn't realize I needed it at the time. If I could time travel, I'd do it. :)
Good question,

With test you wait to do PCT because it remains in your system for about 2 weeks, so in that case I would get my bloods done the day I start. With that same logic with Andros you can start the day after your last dose so I THINK you should be able to get those bloods then. At the same time I can't see your levels crashing in one day. I'm in for an answer from somebody smarter than myself.
 
habajaba

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Good question,

With test you wait to do PCT because it remains in your system for about 2 weeks, so in that case I would get my bloods done the day I start. With that same logic with Andros you can start the day after your last dose so I THINK you should be able to get those bloods then. At the same time I can't see your levels crashing in one day. I'm in for an answer from somebody smarter than myself.
That was my concern. I've read the andro half life is like 24hrs, so the andro itself would be gone. But I wasn't sure how long for the T in my system to hit rock bottom. Had planned on starting PCT right away, but don't want to start that til I get the bloodwork. Hoping someone who definitively knows chimes in!
 
justhere4comm

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These are my results from less than 30 days using Letrone to lower my Estradiol.

Screen Shot 2016-10-04 at 9.34.44 AM.png


Screen Shot 2016-10-04 at 9.34.04 AM.png


Edited: to add data range.
 
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kisaj

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What's the reference range? Where were your numbers before this lab? Are you running anything or in PCT?
 
justhere4comm

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What's the reference range? Where were your numbers before this lab? Are you running anything or in PCT?
I have no pre cycle bloods. Yep...

This was pre-pct. 3 weeks. with only Letrone.
Right now I'm 10 days into PCT.


Edited my above images to encompass requested information.
 
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kisaj

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Ok, so you posted up only estradiol numbers and nothing else, after running an unknown cycle, and taking an OTC for only 3 weeks before PCT, and we don't have any idea of your pre #s.

So, in essence, that lab tells us nothing. Not to be rude, but I am not sure what the intent was.
 
justhere4comm

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Ok, so you posted up only estradiol numbers and nothing else, after running an unknown cycle, and taking an OTC for only 3 weeks before PCT, and we don't have any idea of your pre #s.

So, in essence, that lab tells us nothing. Not to be rude, but I am not sure what the intent was.
Thanks for bringing that up. Please read the OPs description of this thread.
I'm demonstrating how one OTC product helped to lower my Estradiol. I ran it solo.

The only part you need to see is what I posted. AFAIC.
I have posted bloods in my PCT log. Ongoing. Hope this helps.
 
DirtyWilly

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Thanks for the info!

These numbers seem a little unusual, maybe I'm reading your dosing wrong?

For the first test collected on 2016/09/28, this was after 4 weeks of just Epidrone (Epi-A/EpiCat)?
For the second test collected on 2016/10/20, this was after 3 additional weeks of Epidrone plus Sup3r-4 (4-Andro)?

The second test is total: 7 weeks of Epidrone + 3 weeks of Sup3r-4?
 
habajaba

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Thanks for the info!

These numbers seem a little unusual, maybe I'm reading your dosing wrong?

For the first test collected on 2016/09/28, this was after 4 weeks of just Epidrone (Epi-A/EpiCat)?
For the second test collected on 2016/10/20, this was after 3 additional weeks of Epidrone plus Sup3r-4 (4-Andro)?

The second test is total: 7 weeks of Epidrone + 3 weeks of Sup3r-4?
Of course, I'm all about the data and want to help the community in any way I can... The only downfall is I didn't get a baseline prior, so the numbers here are really only useful for gauging Sup3r-4's effects. Not sure how much Epidrone has suppressed me from natural levels (if it did)...

You got the timing info correct. I've been dosing the recommended 300mg Epi-A and 330mg 4-Andro throughout.

The Epidrone raises DHT, not Test. So I'd expect it to suppress the Test numbers somewhat. Sup3r-4 raised my Test by 226 ng/dL. What I find interesting is my Estradiol went down. Had expected that to rise on the 4-Andro.
 
DirtyWilly

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Yeah, great stuff!

After 4 weeks of Epidrone (Epi-A/EpiCat), appears your T got slightly suppressed from base down to 329. Without the base numbers we can't say for sure, but it appears your E has gone down to 14. Suppressed T and low LH/FSH can be a sign of high E, but since DHT inhibits LH/FSH and E I could only guess it all went down. Lower T typically means lower E through less aromatase, but it's not a perfect indicator if E is elevated. Seeing how E at 14 is already low, this all hints at it going down. There could be some feedback in there, but it looks like the Epidrone/DHT is winning.

After 7 weeks of Epidrone (Epi-A/EpiCat) plus 3 weeks of Sup3r-4 (4-Andro) your T went up to 554. You would expect your E to go up along with the T and with the Sup3r-4 product and it probably did! However, your LH/FSH has continued to go down. To me this shows the DHT is still winning and continues to drive your LH/FSH/E down. Lowering E raises T, but seeing how suppressed your LH/FSH is I don't think lower E alone could have gotten you up to 554.

On the surface, all these products are doing what they claim.

How's training going?
I'd imagine you've seen some impressive increases in power?
How about side effects?
Mostly good? Achy joints? Acne?
 
habajaba

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DirtyWilly, thanks for taking the time to break it all down. I knew the basics, but you really helped me understand on a whole new level.

Training is going extremely well. Strength and endurance (I believe that's from the epicat) have gradually increased the whole cycle. Physical recomp is quite noticeable. Pics will be posted next week when I finish the cycle.

If you want to know more on my training, the full Epidrone log is at http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284797

Ongoing log is at http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285977

No side effects to speak of. Zero acne. No joint issues. No hair loss from the DHT.

Unfortunately, I have no data, but I suspect my natural T levels are borderline low based on these results. Might be time to discuss TRT with my doc...
 
habajaba

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4 andro raised test? Thought it was suppressive
It suppresses natural production. But I'm still on cycle. The raised test is actually the 4-Andro after conversion to Test.
 
fueledpassion

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How long had you been on the 4-andro when you took the most recent test? So it converts to Test -- that is good, but notice it didn't crush your natural HPTA at all. It is behaving as if your body has normalized itself (LH on the low end) and FSH is actually quite high in this regard.

Usually those two values settle at the low end when the body gets enough T to suffice. It usually has pulsations with a few hours of peaky activity throughout the day, morning likely being one of the higher moments for LH/FSH values as well as T levels. Similar observations can been see on the epi-andro blood work as well. I point this out because when I run steroids, aka Testosterone, Tren, EQ, etc etc, I have 0.1 and 0.1 readings on both LH and FSH right after or during a cycle.

Are these products actually bringing results? Are we talking pounds of muscle or are we talking "I feel better" and "more stamina" in the gym?

I ask because this would be an excellent bridging product for those of us that run gear but want to have periods of "health checks and balances" on our system to recover our cholesterol/lipid values, liver, hemo, etc. I might consider running this with PCT based on these blood results I'm seeing here. It almost seems like these PH's are strong enough to be better than natty but not really strong enough to cause significant setbacks in terms of overall organ and blood health.
 
habajaba

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The bloodwork is 3 weeks on 4-andro. I would say noticeable but not dramatic results. I've been recomping.

With Epidrone, I noticed added strength and endurance. I feel about the same, maybe a little LESS endurance after adding the Sup3r-4. But visibly, I feel like I'm getting bigger with the addition of 4-andro.

Weight is going down or same most weeks. Went up 4 lb this past wk. But when same/up I'm still noticeably leaning out. So that leads me to believe that I'm adding lean mass.

I'm also taking cycle assist, for the record.

Interesting observations regarding the LH/FSH. I don't have any real understanding of how all this works... Curious if I'm naturally low (kinda appears that way, right?) then maybe I'm not suppressed as much simply because I'm still not making as much as my body wants even with the added test from the 4-andro?
 
fueledpassion

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The bloodwork is 3 weeks on 4-andro. I would say noticeable but not dramatic results. I've been recomping.

With Epidrone, I noticed added strength and endurance. I feel about the same, maybe a little LESS endurance after adding the Sup3r-4. But visibly, I feel like I'm getting bigger with the addition of 4-andro.

Weight is going down or same most weeks. Went up 4 lb this past wk. But when same/up I'm still noticeably leaning out. So that leads me to believe that I'm adding lean mass.

I'm also taking cycle assist, for the record.

Interesting observations regarding the LH/FSH. I don't have any real understanding of how all this works... Curious if I'm naturally low (kinda appears that way, right?) then maybe I'm not suppressed as much simply because I'm still not making as much as my body wants even with the added test from the 4-andro?
There may be other pathways that 4-andro converts to though - not just Testosterone. For instance, something like DMZ doesn't show up as Testosterone but clearly it is doing something in the system. With that logic in mind, I wouldn't assume that the increase in Test is representing 100% of the activity of the 4-andro. Just a thought. Remember that we don't have free T levels on either of these bloods. I wouldn't be surprised if your free T levels are on the rise too.

This stuff seems so mild you'd almost assume a single dose of Trip or Clomiphene E3D would be enough to have the benefit of 4-andro without the shutdown.
 
habajaba

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There may be other pathways that 4-andro converts to though - not just Testosterone. For instance, something like DMZ doesn't show up as Testosterone but clearly it is doing something in the system. With that logic in mind, I wouldn't assume that the increase in Test is representing 100% of the activity of the 4-andro. Just a thought. Remember that we don't have free T levels on either of these bloods. I wouldn't be surprised if your free T levels are on the rise too.

This stuff seems so mild you'd almost assume a single dose of Trip or Clomiphene E3D would be enough to have the benefit of 4-andro without the shutdown.
I did get free Test on the first one. It was 12.8 with a reference of 8.7 - 25.1. But I saved money on the second test and left it out.

That said, I'm not really tracking what you're saying. I mean I get that the 4-andro could do more than just directly boost Test. I also know the epi-andro is in play as well, by raising DHT and suppressing Test. By how much, we don't know. Has anyone done any bloods to see approx how much epi-andro suppresses?

Based on what you're saying, I'm gathering the tests are pointing to my system being minimally suppressed at most. Which again, I assume means that I'm likely naturally low in Test?
 
fueledpassion

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I did get free Test on the first one. It was 12.8 with a reference of 8.7 - 25.1. But I saved money on the second test and left it out.

That said, I'm not really tracking what you're saying. I mean I get that the 4-andro could do more than just directly boost Test. I also know the epi-andro is in play as well, by raising DHT and suppressing Test. By how much, we don't know. Has anyone done any bloods to see approx how much epi-andro suppresses?

Based on what you're saying, I'm gathering the tests are pointing to my system being minimally suppressed at most. Which again, I assume means that I'm likely naturally low in Test?
That blood test is testing for testosterone. Anything synthetic is likely not to show up in the test. What dose are you running of the 4-andro?

My question/hypothesis is this: Could the 4-andro be used at a dose that supports healthy T levels (600-800) without causing significant shutdown of LH/FSH production?

If so, we might have found a legal, OTC HRT. I'm also curious to know if what you have is legit or if it's just something that boost natural T production. If it is a real pro-hormone, it would seem that you are getting anabolic benefits of physiological testosterone without the negative feedback of shutdown. That doesn't sound exciting to younger men who have healthy levels of T, but to the older crowd, this could matter.
 
habajaba

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Dosing the 4-andro at the recommended 330mg in 3 divided doses of 110mg each.

The 4-andro product is Sup3r-4. I purchased it and Epidrone because I trusted that OL and BPS were respectable companies that weren't likely to sell bunk stuff. But I guess it's certainly possible what I have is not truly 4-andro but a natural T booster.

Any idea how much natural T boosters typically boost the number? I gather 226 is a pretty good boost. Not sure that's something you would see from natural products?

I also wonder if since I'm still pretty low, if that's why I'm not totally shut down. Because I'm sure my body could manage to use more if it had it.
 
vujade

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Dosing the 4-andro at the recommended 330mg in 3 divided doses of 110mg each.

The 4-andro product is Sup3r-4. I purchased it and Epidrone because I trusted that OL and BPS were respectable companies that weren't likely to sell bunk stuff. But I guess it's certainly possible what I have is not truly 4-andro but a natural T booster.

Any idea how much natural T boosters typically boost the number? I gather 226 is a pretty good boost. Not sure that's something you would see from natural products?

I also wonder if since I'm still pretty low, if that's why I'm not totally shut down. Because I'm sure my body could manage to use more if it had it.
4 Andro converts to Testosterone, so your testosterone levels will be elevated if you take enough of it.
This is the same if you take testosterone injections, your test levels will be elevated even though its not your natural testosterone.
 
habajaba

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4 Andro converts to Testosterone, so your testosterone levels will be elevated if you take enough of it.
This is the same if you take testosterone injections, your test levels will be elevated even though its not your natural testosterone.
Right. We covered that earlier. But what's in question by fueledpassion is why I'm not totally shut down since I'm taking in this exogenous Test.
 
DirtyWilly

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4 Andro converts to Testosterone, so your testosterone levels will be elevated if you take enough of it.
This is the same if you take testosterone injections, your test levels will be elevated even though its not your natural testosterone.
What's the downside to 4-Andro? Any idea of the mechanism that 4-Andro causes suppression?

Does it lower LH/FSH? Or does natural increase in T, raise E, which lowers LH/FSH?
 
vujade

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What's the downside to 4-Andro? Any idea of the mechanism that 4-Andro causes suppression?

Does it lower LH/FSH? Or does natural increase in T, raise E, which lowers LH/FSH?
any prohormone or steroid will cause suppression, even high doses of DHEA.

Not sure of 4=andro effects on LH/FHS or how its caused.
 
MrKleen73

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What's the downside to 4-Andro? Any idea of the mechanism that 4-Andro causes suppression?

Does it lower LH/FSH? Or does natural increase in T, raise E, which lowers LH/FSH?
It's the same negative feedback loop that causes most forms of suppression / shutdown. Basically 4-Andro converts to testosterone, once at supraphysiological levels the negative feedback loop signals to increase conversion to estrogen as a part of the negative feedback loop. This should in turn lower test levels to normal via less the conversion and less LH stimulation at the pituitary.
 
fueledpassion

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It's the same negative feedback loop that causes most forms of suppression / shutdown. Basically 4-Andro converts to testosterone, once at supraphysiological levels the negative feedback loop signals to increase conversion to estrogen as a part of the negative feedback loop. This should in turn lower test levels to normal via less the conversion and less LH stimulation at the pituitary.
Right, but his LH/FSH isn't bottomed out. Sure, the LH isn't high but it isn't shutdown either. His FSH looks to be higher than what a stable, physiological T level would represent. Usually these hormones hang out at the lower end but have periods in the day where they are higher.

I think the key word you mentioned above is "supra" physiological levels of T. His T isn't beyond normal levels which might explain why suppression isn't bad. If that were the case, I'd say he needs to double his dose for 7-10 days and retake the blood test to see what happened. Granted, easy for me to say when I'm not footing the bill.

For what it is worth, I'd send some money PayPal to cover the next blood test just to see.

However, I also want to say that LH/FSH will shutdown whether estrogen is high or not. If it were merely just about estrogen/test ratio as the key feedback metric, then steroids that do not convert to estrogen wouldn't shut us down at all. You and I both know that isn't the case though.

There are many things involved in that feedback and generally speaking, whether a wet or dry AAS, the higher the value in the serum blood levels, the stronger the feedback system becomes in terms of signaling shutdown. I personally think the feedback system occurs mainly at the androgen receptors - as we have seen with SARMS - even they cause some suppression mainly because they also bind to the androgen receptor just like traditional AAS, albeit with a weaker affinity.
 
habajaba

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This is quite interesting. I would be up for running a bit longer just to see. After all, I'd like to know where that line is for me personally anyway. This is the first time I've ever run a PH.

I run out of my Epidrone and Sup3r-4 Friday morning. Not sure I could get more in time... If I were to double dosage and keep running it, do you think I'd need to run both Epidrone and Sup3r-4 for those 7-10 days? Or just the 4-andro?
 
justhere4comm

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This is quite interesting. I would be up for running a bit longer just to see. After all, I'd like to know where that line is for me personally anyway. This is the first time I've ever run a PH.

I run out of my Epidrone and Sup3r-4 Friday morning. Not sure I could get more in time... If I were to double dosage and keep running it, do you think I'd need to run both Epidrone and Sup3r-4 for those 7-10 days? Or just the 4-andro?
For the love of mike! (who's middle name is science) somebody send this man some supplements! This cannot end here!
 
DirtyWilly

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As I understood it, negative feedback from steroids that don't convert is from binding to the androgen receptors. However, it's not just the binding to the receptors, it's the competition with receptors between that and your natural T. The natural T levels begin to rise because they don't have androgen receptors to bind to anymore and the runaway T begins the negative feedback.

Can binding to the androgen receptor alone cause shutdown in the case of non-converting steroids, or is only in response to the body's natural runaway T?

How bad is shutdown from say Tren? Tren doesn't convert to E or DHT and has 5 times the binding as T to androgen receptor. Does Tren solo crush your LH/FSH to those low 0.1/0.1 numbers?
 
fueledpassion

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Yes, Tren shuts you down very harshly. The signal is strong and immediate, as is for any 19-Nor Testosterone or synthetic version. I think it is most in the signaling at the androgen receptor. Think of Ostarine, for instance. It binds to the androgen receptor at 30% the affinity of Test, and guess what? It has only mild suppression that is easy to recover from.

Similar things can be said about other mild steroids as well. I think estrogen plays a role though too. I think you have a decent understanding of it all and it might be correct in assuming that when the test has no where to bind to, you kick start a negative feedback loop. I remember one time my bloods showed no activity in my LH/FSH, indicating I was shutdown (which was expected) but my total T was 289. This might support your claim.

But then again, the H-Drol might have been showing up as Testosterone as well in the form of oral Turinabol. The other possibility from that blood work is that the Test-P was not completely out of my system at the time, which is likely the cause since it was about 4 days after my cycle had ended.

All that said, I believe the feedback starts at the binding to the receptor. The strength and duration of the affinity is what ultimately matters, IMO.

But we should stop speculating and just look it up - probably common medical knowledge TBH.
 
Misfit28

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I found this really interesting. I got bloodwork done two days after I stopped dosing OL Sup3r-11, and I also used Alpha Gainz Stano TD and caps. I even added in a bit of Ostarine and GW (OL EnduraShred) for the last week and a half. I was cutting, and other supps used were Vitamin D3 (4000 IU), 100mg Forskolin95 (OL Forslean), BPS DCP 2.0, SNS Betaine (2.5g per day), SNS TTA-500, SNS MCC (5g per day) OL Bloodshr3d War and OL Conqu3r Unleashed.

I think I gained more muscle mass than lost fat, I got really off track during the holidays.

Anyway, I thought I would have my blood drawn before and after CEL M-TEST, and I got these pretty odd results:

First page screenshot of labs 20170106.jpg
Second page screenshot of labs 20170106.jpg


I'm really surprised by:

1. The high Test number, this is the highest I have ever read.

2. The high estradiol number

3. The regular LH and FSH values

For reference after my recovery from Trest back in September my Total Test was only 386.9. My FSH and LH levels have never been higher either. I used no SERM at all.

Thoughts?
 
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So this is after? That is an insanely high e2 level and an average total test level. LH and FSH look fine, but that T:E ratio is way off and needs to come down.
 
Misfit28

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So this is after? That is an insanely high e2 level and an average total test level. LH and FSH look fine, but that T:E ratio is way off and needs to come down.
Yes, right after ceasing 10mg Ostarine, Up to 500mg of Stano and 4 pumps (4mL measured in oral syringe) of 11-KT every day for 4 weeks or so.

I just started Inhibit E in hopes it will bring down my Estradiol, but I also have some pharma Xtane on hand.

I noticed I was retaining a TON of water, but damn. My libido has been super low lately as well, and erections almost nonexistent.

I've never seen an E2 that high before LOL. No gyno, though.

It's crazy. I don't know what this means, LOL. I know it means I'm not suppressed for one.

My theory is that my BF% (25 or so) means more aromatase enzyme. That's why the Estradiol is so high. I just can't explain the highest my test has ever read in the 5 or 6 times I've had bloodwork.
 
ELROCK

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Yes, right after ceasing 10mg Ostarine, Up to 500mg of Stano and 4 pumps (4mL measured in oral syringe) of 11-KT every day for 4 weeks or so.

I just started Inhibit E in hopes it will bring down my Estradiol, but I also have some pharma Xtane on hand.

I noticed I was retaining a TON of water, but damn. My libido has been super low lately as well, and erections almost nonexistent.

I've never seen an E2 that high before LOL. No gyno, though.

It's crazy. I don't know what this means, LOL. I know it means I'm not suppressed for one.

My theory is that my BF% (25 or so) means more aromatase enzyme. That's why the Estradiol is so high. I just can't explain the highest my test has ever read in the 5 or 6 times I've had bloodwork.
Thanks for taking the time to run bloods! Dude you need a real AI asap! Don't even bother with the Inhibit E.
 
ELROCK

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OTC AI can generally drop e2 numbers by about 10 points (maybe 15) or so and you need them dropped by a ton!
 
Misfit28

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OTC AI can generally drop e2 numbers by about 10 points (maybe 15) or so and you need them dropped by a ton!
Yeah, it's crazy. I think I'm going to start Exemestane at 12.5 EOD.
 
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I would definitely not take any OTC at this point. Good plan on the exemestane.
 
Misfit28

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I would definitely not take any OTC at this point. Good plan on the exemestane.
Thanks brother. First dose already down the hatch.

I was wondering why I couldn't seem to lose weight, LOL. Damn estrogen was probably holding on to the fat.

I just don't understand why estrogen was so elevated on Stano and 11-keto. Really weird.
 
shanedoolie1

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Me too! Old post but any luck? Lol

Edit: somehow this ended up on the wrong thread.. :/
 
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Adding info to this thread. To post a little context I will include Mid lvl HRT values. This will be blood work for PHARMATEST C 250 from (pharmacomstore.ws) If anyone been looking at this brand it good to go and legit.

Currently on HRT. At this point in time about mid lvl. Test for that was done about 2 week ago followed by the new one with the off the books dosing. Wanted to run test dose a little higher so this is off the books with my current doctor so I picked up 2 vials of PHARMATEST C 250 I was doing 125 mg M,W,F,S for a total of 475mg a week, but may end of doing just 375mg. Did increase on anastrozole dose to about 75-1mg a week (caps are .25mg each) and for lvls to stay the same w/the way higher test that pretty good in my books but I will be lowering those estro numbers a tad anyway.

Mid lvl test below. Small snip it.

3.JPG



Then off the books higher test does with PHARMATEST C 250 from (pharmacomstore.ws) 475mg a week split M,W,F,S. Total lvl over 1500.

Binder1 (1)_Page_1.jpg

Binder1 (1)_Page_2.jpg
 

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