Products Bloodwork

All Creation said:
Hey guys, I just got my bloodwork back from a solo run of Letrone, and either it works or I have my placebo effect dialed-in well. ;)

I am a 30 year old, natty who has been lifting for over 5 solid years. I have low-ish T-levels and had borderline high E-levels.

I took Letrone at 2 caps a day for 30 days and on the morning of bloodwork I took 1 capsule.

Here is my baseline bloodwork:

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And here is my Letrone bloodwork:

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In summary, I had a decrease of 14.2 points in Estradiol, while LH increased 0.2 points and FSH increased 0.2 points. Test levels stayed almost exactly the same.


As far as anecdotal assessment: I felt more confident and more carefree while using Letrone. I also had really bad joint pain to start but that tapered away. I had excellent pumps at the gym and feel like I have physically leaned up in my appearance while only dropping 2-3 pounds.

Overall, I'm happy with Letrone and next up is a month of Viron!
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Thanks for running labs for us brother. I appreciate it. Now you guys have viable labs posted with pre and post numbers.
Im surprised only estro was effected but everyone is different. Most of the other labs we ran had test and LH and FSH altered.

Either way a 30% drop in estrogen levels is solid in my book ;)
 
All Creation said:
Hey guys, I just got my bloodwork back from a solo run of Letrone, and either it works or I have my placebo effect dialed-in well. ;)

I am a 30 year old, natty who has been lifting for over 5 solid years. I have low-ish T-levels and had borderline high E-levels.

I took Letrone at 2 caps a day for 30 days and on the morning of bloodwork I took 1 capsule.

Here is my baseline bloodwork:

Invalid Link Removed


And here is my Letrone bloodwork:

Invalid Link Removed


In summary, I had a decrease of 14.2 points in Estradiol, while LH increased 0.2 points and FSH increased 0.2 points. Test levels stayed almost exactly the same.


As far as anecdotal assessment: I felt more confident and more carefree while using Letrone. I also had really bad joint pain to start but that tapered away. I had excellent pumps at the gym and feel like I have physically leaned up in my appearance while only dropping 2-3 pounds.

Overall, I'm happy with Letrone and next up is a month of Viron!
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Awesome results bro..! thx for posting blood work..! You're going to love Viron..!
 
I suspect it's more likely that people who are shut down (0-3 LH) will experience a much greater boost than people who are already doing ok as far as LH goes. 5 isn't bad compared to what the people who beta tested Letrone were on, IIRC.

We'll find out more when I do my log, my LH and FSH are absolutely abysmal at the moment so if my theory holds, Letrone + Rebirth should cause them to absolutely rocket.

Bloods on Monday morning and I've decided to wait for results before I start my log, would prefer if anyone following the log knows where I stand before I begin.
 
XAndroX said:
14 points drop in Estradiol isnt that much, thats perhabs why T and LH barely changed. It's normal. Back in the day where I had no experience with AI, prohormones etc. I had Estradiol levels ranging from 23 to 35 while T and LH were almost unchanged. 10-15 points drop can be archieved just by changing your diet.
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Wrong. 10-15 pts is quite considerable. And for an OTC, even more remarkable. 35% reduction is right on par with low dose arimidex or aromasin in males.
 
XAndroX said:
35% isnt much. How come I easily droped my Estradiol by approx. 10-15 points without any supps back in the day when I was 100% natural and didn't touch anything besides whey, glutamin and creatine?

It is simple, when Estradiol drops below the range which the body considers normal (every one has his own range which the body considers normal) than more Testosterone is produced in order to make the Estradiol go up into the bodys normal range. LH and Testosterone almost didn't changed which means the drop was still in the normal range.
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Can you tell us how you did this and what you changed in your diet?
 
I don't know if im allowed to post links but you should check out Anabolicmen.com it's a site dedicated to optimizing Testosterone production naturaly. You can find alot informatione there.
 
XAndroX said:
I don't know if im allowed to post links but you should check out Anabolicmen.com it's a site dedicated to optimizing Testosterone production naturaly. You can find alot informatione there.
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I'll check it out in a second but what diet changes did u do to achieve this?
 
I stoped drinking from plastic bottles. I started eating only organic food for the most part . I stoped eating or using soy products like soy sauce. I started supplementing with zinc. And I tried to lose some body fat. More body fat = more aromatase. Sorry for not going into detail here. It's 3 am where I live and I will try to get some.sleep now. If you have any questions than feels free to ask.

Editi: white bottom mushrooms are great as a natural aromatase inhibitor.
 
XAndroX said:
I stoped drinking from plastic bottles. I started eating only organic food for the most part . I stoped eating or using soy products like soy sauce. I started supplementing with zinc. And I tried to lose some body fat. More body fat = more aromatase
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Oh ok that makes total sense then.
 
So you made lifestyle changes and lowered e2 levels. That's great, but still doesn't make your comment true. 35% reduction in estradiol is significant regardless of the means. You accomplished this through changes. The other guy did it with an OTC.
 
Bloods done this morning. The following have been sent away to be tested, I expect them back by next Monday at the latest.

Standard:
Liver
Renal

Hormones:
Testosterone (Total)
Testosterone (Free)
Estradiol
SHGB
LH
FSH
Prolactin

Thyroid:
TSH
T3
T4

One caveat here is that my lab ignored my request for total and free testosterone last time and gave me back a figure for "Testosterone" in nmol/L which I *assume* is just total testosterone. I asked the nurse to specifically mark "free testosterone" as a separate test today so hopefully this time I'll get the two figures separately. Even if not, one can infer a certain amount from estradiol and SHGB levels - not ideal but at least it's something.

Brundel recommended getting IGF-1 tested as well but the nurse didn't reckon that (a) our local lab is able to test for that - would have involved sending them on to another and thus increasing the waiting time for results, and (b) that a single test for igf-1 on a random morning would be too useful given that it tends to fluctuate. So I apologise to anyone who was hoping for that, but as I say it didn't seem like any result would be useful enough to justify delaying the start of the log.

Really psyched to get started now though :D

One question: Most people doing logs talk about their gym progress, unfortunately my gymming is somewhat limited at the moment due to an ongoing meniscus injury - can only do upper body exercises and even then primarily only sitting down ones, to be on the safe side. Feckin' thing was almost healed and I stupidly decided to go back to the squat rack just a few weeks earlier than my doc recommended... Tearing one's meniscus for a second time is somehow even more horrifying than when it happens the first time. >_< With this in mind, workout chat will be somewhat limited (I will still log the exercises that I do but it's pretty generic isolation exercises until my knees are back to normal) so what else should one talk about in a log? Presumably mood, libido, unexpected potential effects, joint issues, etc?
 
conkertheking said:
Bloods done this morning. The following have been sent away to be tested, I expect them back by next Monday at the latest.

Standard:
Liver
Renal

Hormones:
Testosterone (Total)
Testosterone (Free)
Estradiol
SHGB
LH
FSH
Prolactin

Thyroid:
TSH
T3
T4

One caveat here is that my lab ignored my request for total and free testosterone last time and gave me back a figure for "Testosterone" in nmol/L which I *assume* is just total testosterone. I asked the nurse to specifically mark "free testosterone" as a separate test today so hopefully this time I'll get the two figures separately. Even if not, one can infer a certain amount from estradiol and SHGB levels - not ideal but at least it's something.

Brundel recommended getting IGF-1 tested as well but the nurse didn't reckon that (a) our local lab is able to test for that - would have involved sending them on to another and thus increasing the waiting time for results, and (b) that a single test for igf-1 on a random morning would be too useful given that it tends to fluctuate. So I apologise to anyone who was hoping for that, but as I say it didn't seem like any result would be useful enough to justify delaying the start of the log.

Really psyched to get started now though :D

One question: Most people doing logs talk about their gym progress, unfortunately my gymming is somewhat limited at the moment due to an ongoing meniscus injury - can only do upper body exercises and even then primarily only sitting down ones, to be on the safe side. Feckin' thing was almost healed and I stupidly decided to go back to the squat rack just a few weeks earlier than my doc recommended... Tearing one's meniscus for a second time is somehow even more horrifying than when it happens the first time. >_< With this in mind, workout chat will be somewhat limited (I will still log the exercises that I do but it's pretty generic isolation exercises until my knees are back to normal) so what else should one talk about in a log? Presumably mood, libido, unexpected potential effects, joint issues, etc?
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That sounds good. Post everything that feels different while you are on it even if you think it isn't relevant. Physical changes, sleeping patterns, workout quality, etc....
 
Yes to all of it. I personally think it will be interesting to read about without the workout aspect being the primary discussion.
 
Hey Guys. Im have to run bloodwork again, i have been using Andro the giant( 4-Andro) . Do Guys think 8 or 9 days of everyting would be enough ? Thanks in advance
 
Bodiebuilders said:
Hey Guys. Im have to run bloodwork again, i have been using Andro the giant( 4-Andro) .

Do Guys think 8 or 9 days of everyting would be enough ? Thanks in advance
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Are you asking if you should run an 8 or 9 day PCT...?

Or am i not understanding your questions..
 
Bodiebuilders said:
Hey Guys. Im have to run bloodwork again, i have been using Andro the giant( 4-Andro) . Do Guys think 8 or 9 days of everyting would be enough ? Thanks in advance
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As above it would be helpful if you could clarify what exactly you're proposing to run for 8 or 9 days, but to be honest I would argue that where hormones are concerned, 8 or 9 days probably isn't enough of anything. Pretty much anything affecting hormones takes time to act, several weeks at the very least.
 
Sorry. I stopped taking 4- Andro 8 days ago. I have to check my testosteron and other hormones . You Guys think im ready to go or wait Some longer ?
 
Its not even close to enough. Post cycle it can take months to recover. This is with proper PCT. Without it can take a year or even potentially not recover at all.
You want ideally a 4 week PCT followed by another month off that. Then run labs.
 
brundel said:
Its not even close to enough. Post cycle it can take months to recover. This is with proper PCT. Without it can take a year or even potentially not recover at all.
You want ideally a 4 week PCT followed by another month off that. Then run labs.
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Agree with this. A proper PCT helps the process of recovery, but doesn't magically restore everything to homeostasis.
 
Hey guys.

Just checking in with some post-Viron bloodwork. I took 2 caps a day for 3 weeks, which I believe is double the usual dose of Longjack in human studies.

Baseline:

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30 days later after Letrone:

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And 3 more weeks later after Viron:

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I was honestly expecting my natural T to be much more elevated from Viron. It barely moved. But it nuked my Estro even further another 10ish points from what Letrone did, which really surprised me. Also it increased my LH about two points. Cool. ^_^
 
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All Creation said:
Hey guys.

Just checking in with some post-Viron bloodwork. I took 2 caps a day for 3 weeks, which I believe is double the usual dose of Longjack in human studies.

Baseline:

Invalid Link Removed

After Viron:

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I had just finished a 30 day Letrone run and segwayed immediately into the three weeks of Viron. My post-Letrone bloodwork is back at the end of page 3.

I was honestly expecting my natural T to be much more elevated. It barely moved. But it nuked my Estro even further another 10ish points, which really surprised me. Also it increased my LH. Cool. ^_^
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So the lectrone had you at higher than normal range estrogen?
 
NoAddedHmones said:
So the lectrone had you at higher than normal range estrogen?
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It is a bit confusing the way it is worded. The first is his baseline at 42.7 Estradiol. Back on page 3 of this thread he posted his baseline bloods plus post-Letrone blood work showing Estradiol 28.5. A 14.2 point drop in roughly 30 days. Directly above it seems he is comparing his baseline bloods to his post-Viron blood work. It shows a significant increase in LH and a continued drop in Estradiol. I hope I summarized that correctly All Creation. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing the lab work. Repped.
 
Jebrook said:
It is a bit confusing the way it is worded. The first is his baseline at 42.7 Estradiol. Back on page 3 of this thread he posted his baseline bloods plus post-Letrone blood work showing Estradiol 28.5. A 14.2 point drop in roughly 30 days. Directly above it seems he is comparing his baseline bloods to his post-Viron blood work. It shows a significant increase in LH and a continued drop in Estradiol. I hope I summarized that correctly All Creation. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing the lab work. Repped.
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Bingo! Sorry, I should have been more clear with it. I just edited it and added the Letrone bloodwork for clarity.

I figured three weeks would be enough to let anything not effected by Viron, but effected by Letrone, return to baseline, which is why I again posted the image of baseline bloods.

I wonder if taking Viron without the Letrone cycle before it would have still lead to such a dramatic decrease in Estradiol. I mean 42 to 18 is pretty crazy if it could do that by itself.
 
Whats odd is there was a 35% rise in LH with no real concurrent rise in total T which is what we would expect from a rise in LH.

Also it is possible that Letrone is a suicidal AI which would mean estro would remain suppressed for a while. This combined with the Viron is likely why estro dropped further.
 
I've never experienced an increase in total test on TA or Viron. It significantly increased free test, which was the point of taking it to begin with. I wonder why it was on the baseline and not subsequent labs.

That is extremely impressive regarding the Letrone, additional Viron, and e2.
 
I gained 2 pounds while maintaining roughly the same diet. My strength also increased very slightly. I have been really stressed the past few weeks though, and so I just haven't really felt that good overall.

I think I felt better on Letrone and had better pumps in the gym, but again I have other things going on in my life that are probably the real cause of that.
 
One of the things Ive noticed from recent posts is decreases in estradiol levels don't appear to translate to increased T - Levels. Can anyone chime in with an explanation on this? Virtually all the marketing around AIs suggests reduction in E should lead to increases in T-levels.
 
You can convert only the free testosterone to E2 so it goes up which may or may not affect total test as SHBG and albumin are also involved, among others.
 
machinehead said:
You can convert only the free testosterone to E2 so it goes up which may or may not affect total test as SHBG and albumin are also involved, among others.
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No sure I understand this. Are you saying in the process of reducing E2 free testosterone is converted to e2? Doesn't make sense. What's the point of a suicidal AI then?
 
You stop converting the free test, it (free test) goes up. It has to come from total test which may go down as a result.
 
Thanks. But is there any study confirming this? This is the first ive read that e2 reduction leads only to conversion to free t and not total T
 
I believe he is saying that lowering e2 decreases SHBG, thereby increasing free test, but doesn't always have an effect on total test. That is fairly well known, but I am not positive that is what he was getting at.
 
kisaj said:
I believe he is saying that lowering e2 decreases SHBG, thereby increasing free test, but doesn't always have an effect on total test. That is fairly well known, but I am not positive that is what he was getting at.
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Thanks. Is there any bloodwork on this or other sites you know of evidencing the link between lower e2 = lower shbg = lower free t?
 
Higher free t is the result. As far as labs, I have a bunch of old ones archived at my docs I could maybe seek out, and it is well documented regarding how the process works.
 
Reducing e2 theoretically should increase levels of gonadotropins LH and FSH, but often when taking steroidal AIs this seems to be a bit hit and miss. One theory I have (and this is purely speculation so take it with a large grain of salt) is that because AIs block aromatase by essentially "looking" enough (chemically speaking) like androtenedione or testosterone to bind to aromatase, it's possible that they may also bind to androgen receptors. We know for instance that some AIs decrease DHT levels while others do not - this is because some AIs have chemical properties which allow them to bind not only to aromatase, but also to 5-alpha reductase. Others can be converted to androgens by other enzymes - Formestane for example is chemically similar to androstenedione and is converted to a testosterone-like androgen by the same enzyme which normally converts androstenedione to testosterone - and this can have the prohormone-like effect of preventing the HPTA from being fired up while simultaneously reducing E2. It could even be that some such compounds have androgenic effects on androgen receptors, which further instructs the brain not to bother increasing production.

In my own case, once my E2 level plummeted on Formestane it remained low for two months after Formestane was stopped, without rebounding. This suggests that E2 wasn't lowered enough to cause a HPTA jump, so I wound up with an ongoing lowered E2 level while my test and other levels remained at the low end of normal.

As I say, all of this is pure conjecture on my part. More blood results over time from various users of these products will paint a more detailed picture.

Ultimately I feel there is still a lot of speculation and presumption around how this whole system fully works, primarily because these issues for guys and the use of drugs originally designed for treating cancer in women on guys for reproductive health purposes simply haven't been researched extensively enough. That's one of the reasons I think this thread is a great idea - everyone who gets bloodwork done contributes just a little bit to the bodybuilding community's understanding of the endocrine system and how various drug-induced changes impact on the overall picture, in a way which the pharma and research industries simply haven't bothered investigating it.
 
As mentioned, the more bloodwork done the more we can start proving or disproving a particular hypothesis. In line with the above, many naturally occurring AIs also have been discovered to inhibit the 17b-HSD family of enzymes. Therefore, if said compound inhibited say, both aromatase and 17b-HSD-5, one would expect to see lower E2 levels and either lower or at least not an elevation in T. (In this hypothetical, 17b HSD-3 is not affected so conversion of Adione to T in the testes would be unaffected, just conversion elsewhere in the body.)

However, unless a substance is tested for other enzymatic reactions other than just aromatase, it hard to know. BC and PC research are less far along in their search for naturally occurring anti androgens than they are for AIs. Sorry to hijack the thread...maybe I'll start another one to get the experts to weigh in.
 
i was going to do an 8 wekk ostrine and cardarine cyle then a 4 week pct i have low test from my last cycle at 7.4 free test but my doctors appointment isnt for 3.5 months? is this a really bad idea. I can get erections but its takes a little time.
 
Got my Letrone + Rebirth cycle results! This is a copy of the final post in my log thread over in the Supplement Log section:

RESULTS ARE IN!!!

Well ladies and gentlemen, got my results this morning. Epic in some ways, not so great in others, but certainly gives me a clear route forward with my hormones and a clear recommendation of Letrone as an incredible AI product :D

Code: 
Result			Baseline		Post cycle		Range

Hormones

Testosterone: 		11.1 nmol/L	 	10.2			8.6-29.0
Estradiol: 		80 pmol/L 		<50			95 - 223
LH: 			3.1 			3.0			2 - 9
FSH: 			2.0		 	2.0			2 - 12
SHGB: 			24.4 			29.6			16.5 - 55.9
Prolactin: 		224 			237			86-324

Thyroid

TSH: 			2.74 			3.01			0.27 - 4.2
Free T4: 		14.6 			17.7			12.0 - 22.0
Total T3: 		1.86 			2.35			1.3 - 3.1

None of my liver or renal values were abnormal. I will post these as soon as I find the print-out of the previous test, so I can post baseline with post cycle - I just can't remember which drawer I put it in :D

As you can see, all three Thyroid values are higher than pre-cycle. This is pretty epic - I wonder how much this can be corroborated with improved mood etc?

Regarding hormones: in my unexpert opinion, these results are telling me that Letrone is an absolutely stellar product. My Estradiol was so low that the lab didn't actually give me an exact figure - 95 pmol is the bottom of their range, after half a year of Formestane it had dropped from 112 to 80, but on Letrone they've given me a result which says "<50", implying that anything below 50 is too low for them to bother testing. Their range used to go down as low as 30, but apparently last year they started using a different enzyme to test the blood which produces a more accurate result, but results in the range needing to be raised.

Testosterone is almost the same as it was in the baseline, slightly lower, and LH and FSH are broadly unaffected. Now this doesn't suggest that Rebirth doesn't work, it just suggests that my particular problem with regard to gonadotropins is not related to estrogen feedback. And in fact, this is corroborated by the low E2 result - even if Rebirth didn't work at all, an E2 result that low should have the same effect by up-regulating LH production, and it didn't.

This suggests to me that my real hormone issue is Prolactin, which has repeatedly stubbornly refused to budge even with a Prolactrone cycle. As you can see here, my prolactin is actually slightly higher than it was going into the test, and I've certainly heard others say that prolactin being high can pretty much kill any hope of a proper HPTA restart, regardless of how much one alters E2 or ER levels.

So I think my next cycle, perhaps not until the new year, will be a stack of Letrone, Viron, and Prolactrone with ZMA every night. As I said previously, Prolactrone didn't reduce my PRL by much, but I had wondered if cutting ZMA from my stack might have caused a B6 deficiency, which would limit the brain's ability to convert L-DOPA to Dopamine. This is therefore the obvious next port of call. I'll drop Rebirth for two reasons, firstly to see if perhaps one of its effects was to lessen the boost from lower E2, but also because clearly with Letrone dropping E2 so low, there's really no need to run a SERM at the same time.

I do one to add one caveat regarding Rebirth though. In the course of my research, I discovered that one of the SERMs in Rebirth has an anti-estrogenic effect at ER beta, but a small estrogenic effect at ER alpha. So it could be that it's this estrogenic effect on ER alpha which prevented the drop in E2 from causing negative feedback. Documentation is incredibly sparse on which estrogen receptor is involved in HPTA regulation, so it's difficult to comment on this either way - however, as this effect is noted as "significant but small" in the write-ups, it seems preposterous to suggest that it could counteract the effect of E2 dropping so low. So for the time being, my conclusion here is that Letrone is a fantastic product and that Rebirth may be - the prolactin issue makes it very difficult to judge exactly why this stack didn't boost my HPTA.

As I say, next stack will be Viron (Test booster), Letrone (AI) and Prolactrone (Dopamine booster) - but with the addition of ZMA.

Don't expect that one too soon as I say - this is probably unnecessary and more "feels" than science, but I'd like to give my body a break from messing around with this stuff, if that makes sense. I know it's not a PH cycle or anything like that, but on the other hand I've been on Formestane since January and then Letrone just a month or two after that, and I'm just not sure what kind of uncharted waters I'd be heading into if I basically went a full year without letting my body do its thing without supplement support. Laugh at this if you will. :p

Thanks to everyone who gave me encouragement in this log, and thanks to Brundel for creating this absolutely stellar product. A 30pmol drop in estradio (AT LEAST - remember it could be a lot lower than 50, that's just as low as my lab will report!) is just incredible, and is actually far, more than Formestane achieved. I will have absolutely no hesitation in recommending Letrone to anyone who is looking for estradiol reductions, and the gigantic libido boost I experienced is of course icing on the cake :D

Until next time!
 
Im glad we got to see both estrogen drop and thyroid function increase as was suggested in the animal studies.
Im not sure we have seen a other plant that had such promise in a long time.
Thanks for running labs brother.
 
I have two takeaways from the latest posted bloodwork and one earlier

1. Letrone works in decreasing Estradiol!
2. Decrease in E2 does not translate into increases in Total T and, as far as I'm concerned, Free T. Decrease in E2 for the latest bloodwork did not translate to lower SHGB as one poster speculated which could translate into increase in Free T.

Kudos to Conkertheking and other's that have posted bloodwork.
 
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