Inflammation, agmatine and muscle growth

[AutoKal47]

So, I've been taking 1gr of agmatine a day for the last 10/15 days (don't remember)
because I had 50gr of it sitting here for the longest time, I didn't wanna toss it..

Since the stuff makes me sleepy I've been dosing it 500mg first thing in the morning
(enough coffee gets rid of the sleepiness and I'm too damn busy anyway during the day)
and another 500mg post workout (which is midnight, so the sleepiness is welcome)

Now, I've noticed only one thing while on it, which is
I was getting slightly less DOMS, and since I workout every day
this allowed me to use more weight and overall push more.
Actually, the weight increased quite a bit, broke few PRs and
went up on every exercise, this on top of turning my only day off in a legit wo day.

It seems all good right?
I'm not sure.. I mean, obviously more weight and more reps means strength increase
(due to a better recovery since recovery IS my worst enemy because I just trash my own self everyday)
and more muscle growth.

But let's take yesterday's wo for example, it was back day (well, one of 'em in my week..)
after warming up my first two exercises are the heaviest ones, bb t-bar rows and then one arm db rows.
Overload is just a metaphor for me with these two exercises, I just *love* the pain on my back and lats
and when I'm done with these two I literally feel like I'm growing wings. I literally go for the maximum amount
of pain i can possibly stand. Then the rest of the workout proceeds...

Obviously this causes me insane DOMS for the following 2/3 days.

Yesterday I broke my PR on bb t-rows, out of excitement I picked up the bar AGAIN at the last set,
and nailed 2 more reps on top of the new PR. Same goes for db rows, went up with weights
and and and..

So according to what usually happens DOMS should have been much worse, if anything, the same right?

Instead, I'm not that sore today (which makes me slightly pissed)..

So after all this boring paragraph, my question is:

if agmatine reduces muscle inflammation, does it means it slows down muscle growth somehow?
I mean, I damage my muscle in the gym busting my a## but if agmatine reduces the damages produced
by the training, doesn't it the same as my workout was less "intense"?

I am pretty sure I'm missing a very simple point here because I sense the answer is "no" but please,
educate me on this

 

[mr.cooper69]

All I read was the question. The answer is no. In fact, it's not even clear if clinical NSAIDs actually hinder muscle growth

 

[3utcher]

> enhanced recovery > less DOMS
(same would apply to carnitine, BCAA, and even protein shakes preworkout)

 

[fightbackhxc]

All I read was the question. The answer is no. In fact, it's not even clear if clinical NSAIDs actually hinder muscle growth

this is what I have heard as well

 

[Whacked]

Sup Coop

Isn't it somewhat paradoxial to say that Agmatine ("IF" it is in fact an antinflammatory agent) does not hinder muscle growth but then say that X-gels (arachadonic acid - proinflammatory prostaglandins/eicosanoids) lead to muscle hypertrophy as stated in the other threads?

How does one cause inflammation and the other limit inflammatation but BOTH be hypertrophic agents?

All I read was the question. The answer is no. In fact, it's not even clear if clinical NSAIDs actually hinder muscle growth

 

[mr.cooper69]

Sup Coop

Isn't it somewhat paradoxial to say that Agmatine ("IF" it is in fact an antinflammatory agent) does not hinder muscle growth but then say that X-gels (arachadonic acid - proinflammatory prostaglandins/eicosanoids) lead to muscle hypertrophy as stated in the other threads?

How does one cause inflammation and the other limit inflammatation but BOTH be hypertrophic agents?

No, because there are a million different types of inflammation. I never said agmatine promotes hypertrophy either .

 

[Whacked]

Then whats the purpose of it other than a vain pump

I never said agmatine promotes hypertrophy either .

 

[mr.cooper69]

Then whats the purpose of it other than a vain pump

Lowers blood glucose, lowers blood pressure, improves mood, improves NO-mediated performance in the gym, promotes LH and GH release

 

[Whacked]

Wellllllllll then.......

Back OT (sorry for derailing AutoKal)

 

[uvawahoowa]

Then whats the purpose of it other than a vain pump

Increased NO production increases both substrate delivery to muscle tissue and metabolic waste disposal? Just guessing at that one, but seems plausible?

 

[uvawahoowa]

Increased NO production increases both substrate delivery to muscle tissue and metabolic waste disposal? Just guessing at that one, but seems plausible?

Was any part of that right coop?

 

[RecompMan]

All I read was the question. The answer is no. In fact, it's not even clear if clinical NSAIDs actually hinder muscle growth

Believe I saw a story on aspirin aiding muscle growth a while back. Judo I think posted it

 

[RecompMan]

Lowers blood glucose, lowers blood pressure, improves mood, improves NO-mediated performance in the gym, promotes LH and GH release

Argh. Lol.

Still yet to use it. It is an Anabolic substance due to the effects on pi3k/akt pathway.

Great intra with some bcaas

 

[AutoKal47]

All I read was the question. The answer is no. In fact, it's not even clear if clinical NSAIDs actually hinder muscle growth

Got it, thanks coop.
Actually, I read an article a while back on how long term use of NSAIDs supposedly helped with muscle growth
It was posted somewhere here

> enhanced recovery > less DOMS
(same would apply to carnitine, BCAA, and even protein shakes preworkout)

Yeah but those never affected DOMS for me

Sup Coop

Isn't it somewhat paradoxial to say that Agmatine ("IF" it is in fact an antinflammatory agent) does not hinder muscle growth but then say that X-gels (arachadonic acid - proinflammatory prostaglandins/eicosanoids) lead to muscle hypertrophy as stated in the other threads?

How does one cause inflammation and the other limit inflammatation but BOTH be hypertrophic agents?

Back OT (sorry for derailing AutoKal)[/QUOTE]

Ya know, that's exactly why I asked, I was reading about ARA as well and I did the same connection
so, no derailing at all my friend

Argh. Lol.

Still yet to use it. It is an Anabolic substance due to the effects on pi3k/akt pathway.

Great intra with some bcaas

That's kind of how I'm using it,
I down the second dose when I'm at the last 3/4 sets of my workout

 

[RecompMan]

Got it, thanks coop.
Actually, I read an article a while back on how long term use of NSAIDs supposedly helped with muscle growth
It was posted somewhere here

Yeah but those never affected DOMS for me

Back OT (sorry for derailing AutoKal)

Ya know, that's exactly why I asked, I was reading about ARA as well and I did the same connection
so, no derailing at all my friend

That's kind of how I'm using it,
I down the second dose when I'm at the last 3/4 sets of my workout[/QUOTE]

*when*I use it it'll be with 3 mg yohimbine 10 g modern bcaas and 20 g glucose

 

[dontknowaboutme]

I am actually curious about agmatine's relationship to GnRH and plan to run bloodwork soon to see if it has an noticeable effect.

 

[rob112]

In for any more good info

 

[rob112]

I am actually curious about agmatine's relationship to GnRH and plan to run bloodwork soon to see if it has an noticeable effect.

According to the advanced discussion section it seems to be not cost effective to use with that being a primary purpose. That said, any lab works would be awesome for the board to see.

 

[criticalbench]

All I read was the question. The answer is no. In fact, it's not even clear if clinical NSAIDs actually hinder muscle growth

Very good to know.. i thought that was something proven. Does that go the same for both cox 1 as it does cox 2 inhibitors?

Mike

 

[mr.cooper69]

Very good to know.. i thought that was something proven. Does that go the same for both cox 1 as it does cox 2 inhibitors?

Mike

COX-2 inhibitors are far more studied with respect to hypertrophy and are probably more relevant too:

If you need to use them, space them away from workouts

 

[Whacked]

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/nsaids-and-hypertrophy-by-jay-mccombs/

COX-2 inhibitors are far more studied with respect to hypertrophy and are probably more relevant too:

If you need to use them, space them away from workouts

Very good to know.. i thought that was something proven. Does that go the same for both cox 1 as it does cox 2 inhibitors?

Mike

 

[mr.cooper69]

Solid article. When was it written? New data has emerged in recent years.

 

[Whacked]

Beats me as it doesnt say but you are correct as much of the cited sources reflect older studies circa 10 years ago.

Solid article. When was it written? New data has emerged in recent years.

 

[T-Bone]

I don't know AutoKal, but it seems like agmatine is having a positive effect for you. I wouldn't go searching for negatives. I would just enjoy the benefits you seem to be getting. If your not sore, then that is a good thing!.

 

[AutoKal47]

I don't know AutoKal, but it seems like agmatine is having a positive effect for you. I wouldn't go searching for negatives. I would just enjoy the benefits you seem to be getting. If your not sore, then that is a good thing!.

I agree some more time passed and recover is actually improved.
Different from let's say Leucine which is more endurance and faster recover between sets,
agmatine seems to give me better recover in a day by day basis.
I am actually able to push more, past two weeks I hit new PRs on bb squats, dl, bb-tbar rows
I noticed that I do get sore, but as soon as I move/start the next wo the pain pretty much goes away.
So yeah, is doing good
I'm not sure about the dosing tho', I don't actually know how much i'm taking, I'm downing 1/4 tsp twice a day
(tastes like a##..)

 

[HondaV65]

I get more DOMS from high reps / low weight and I get less DOMS from low rep / high weight.

My muscles don't grow with high reps and low weight so it would seem to me that DOMS isn't the driving factor in hypertrophy.

 

[AutoKal47]

I get more DOMS from high reps / low weight and I get less DOMS from low rep / high weight.

My muscles don't grow with high reps and low weight so it would seem to me that DOMS isn't the driving factor in hypertrophy.

This would be a very long subject to discuss.. I find that mostly what you describe is CNS related,
meaning, some people are built to lift big weights, low reps and that's how they grow,
some other respond better to lower weights and high reps.

But while our body has a general tendency (towards heavy weight/low reps or low weights/high reps) this is also
muscle group depending, some muscles respond better to one or the other regardless our CNS/overall tendency.

Take me for example, for me the 1RM is somehow useless strictly speaking of muscle stimulation,
I do not get any stimulation from it.
But I can do 100 reps at 99% of my 1RM. This is how my CNS works.

It's crazy (and it took me a long time to find this out and
understand how to work it) how I can prepare my CNS to handle literally 99% of my 1RM for 12 reps
just loading my 1RM and perform even ONE, s#itty form, totally useless (for muscle stimulation) rep.
I learned from my crazy, endless training sessions, I will do a regular upward pyramid
up to my 1RM, and let's say the set before that, on the way up, I can handle 8 reps (90% of 1RM).
After my 1RM I will do a reverse pyramid and going down I will be able to easily do 12 reps with the same
weight I did 8 before. And this goes for BIG lifts, like squats, dl, rows, presses..
Once I discovered this I really started to grow a lot faster and got so much stronger.

 

[T-Bone]

Take me for example, for me the 1RM is somehow useless strictly speaking of muscle stimulation,
I do not get any stimulation from it.
But I can do 100 reps at 99% of my 1RM. This is how my CNS works.

That is totally ridiculous. You're obviously not doing 99% of your 1RM. You're calculating something wrong, either the "99%" or your 1RM, but that is completely illogical. If you can do 100 reps of anything that is impressive but there is no way it is at "99%" of you 1RM.

 

[T-Bone]

By the way, these 100 rep sets, how many sets of each exercise are you doing?

 

[AutoKal47]

That is totally ridiculous. You're obviously not doing 99% of your 1RM. You're calculating something wrong, either the "99%" or your 1RM, but that is completely illogical. If you can do 100 reps of anything that is impressive but there is no way it is at "99%" of you 1RM.

lol it wasn't meant to be taken literally my bad I should've said 100s probably
I did try to explain in details above, a weight I can perform 8 reps on my way up to my max
I can perform 12 reps on my way down after my heaviest set.

Lemme give you numbers: let's take deadlift for example, I do 6 sets on the way up,
not counting warmup, my 6th set is 300lbs, I can do 2 reps.
The one before that is 275lbs and I can do 4 reps on my way up but I'm able to do 5 or 6
when coming down form the 300lbs one, same for the following, 6 reps at 2 255 become 8 and so on..

Much more difference in bb t-bar rows, I can do 6 reps at my max (6 plates), 8 at 5.5 plates become 12 on the way back.
And in the reverse pyramid part I also do rest-pause, so after the 12 reps, rest pause and another 2 or 3 or 1,
whatever I can get.. Unload, and so on.

There was an article on this somewhere, talking about how you can "prepare" you CNS just loading a bigger weight,
pick it up (not performing any rep, like for squat was just taking it out of the rack if
I remember correctly, same for bench I think..) then unload to whatever is your max and go with the set.
I think that was meant to be a technique for when you try to beat your 1RM, but the subject was then
extended to well, what I do

In my case i think there is also a psychological component,
like once you nailed the heaviest one everything else seems easier

 

[T-Bone]

lol it wasn't meant to be taken literally my bad I should've said 100s probably
I did try to explain in details above, a weight I can perform 8 reps on my way up to my max
I can perform 12 reps on my way down after my heaviest set.

Lemme give you numbers: let's take deadlift for example, I do 6 sets on the way up,
not counting warmup, my 6th set is 300lbs, I can do 2 reps.
The one before that is 275lbs and I can do 4 reps on my way up but I'm able to do 5 or 6
when coming down form the 300lbs one, same for the following, 6 reps at 2 255 become 8 and so on..

Much more difference in bb t-bar rows, I can do 6 reps at my max (6 plates), 8 at 5.5 plates become 12 on the way back.
And in the reverse pyramid part I also do rest-pause, so after the 12 reps, rest pause and another 2 or 3 or 1,
whatever I can get.. Unload, and so on.

There was an article on this somewhere, talking about how you can "prepare" you CNS just loading a bigger weight,
pick it up (not performing any rep, like for squat was just taking it out of the rack if
I remember correctly, same for bench I think..) then unload to whatever is your max and go with the set.
I think that was meant to be a technique for when you try to beat your 1RM, but the subject was then
extended to well, what I do

In my case i think there is also a psychological component,
like once you nailed the heaviest one everything else seems easier

You seem to make things way more complicated then they need to be.

 

[AutoKal47]

You seem to make things way more complicated then they need to be.

I'm only after muscle stimulation, this is the way I get that the most.
I wish I could get the same results and feel in a more simple way but
understand that I come from bad habits, long training sessions that
became longer and longer, my body can handle a great deal of abuse,
and that forces me to do things that are not the most "efficient" for most people.
I *should* deload and cruise and and and.. But I'm absolutely unable to let go,
or give myself a break so this is it, until something breaks or change.
I never advice anyone to do things the way I do them because I know they are
complicated and weird and lead to overtraining

And also, keep in mind that I don't train for the results, sure I do care about
the results, but I just love to train and most important I love to challenge myself.
I *do* complicate things on purpose and I do things just to see if I can and how far
I can push myself. This is my mindset, I'm not after the easiest way to gain muscle
or something like that

PS: i do use the 100 reps thing too, but just for few exercises like rack pulls (at the end of the heavy deadlift sets), leg extention/curls and tris

 

[T-Bone]

I'm not sure what you mean about 100 reps still. So you do 100 rep sets?. Just looked up "rack pulls", supposedly that is a powerlifting exercise. Well according to bb.com it is. How many sets of 100 reps do you do?. I'd be exhausted after just one set of 100 reps. Plus I'd be in the gym way too long. Do you mean you are doing so many sets and 100 reps total?. Sorry I'm so confused, it happens when you get old. I only have 7 more days of being 39.

 

[AutoKal47]

I'm not sure what you mean about 100 reps still. So you do 100 rep sets?. Just looked up "rack pulls", supposedly that is a powerlifting exercise. Well according to bb.com it is. How many sets of 100 reps do you do?. I'd be exhausted after just one set of 100 reps. Plus I'd be in the gym way too long. Do you mean you are doing so many sets and 100 reps total?. Sorry I'm so confused, it happens when you get old. I only have 7 more days of being 39.

well happy bday in advance then I ain't that much younger you know?

the 100 rep thing is not really connected to the CNS subject really,
I use the 100 reps as a finisher usually at the end of the workout, for tris
I will pick one exercise, usually a cable one at the end of the workout and well,
perform 100 reps, so with a very light weight, you can use the same weight,
or you can drop-set, I like the drop set better because I allows me not to have to rest
more than 5/10 seconds.
The rack pulls is the one you saw yes, usually is performed with very heavy weight
and single (or low anyway) reps.
The way I do it is different, I use it right after my regular deadlift routine,
with a light weight, keeping the tension constant in the lower back/hamstrings,
range of motion is short and you never "lock" at the top.
I do 25 to 30 reps (min) drop some weight, and so on until I reach 100,
then if I the pain doesn't knock me out I go on until it does.
I get the best back pumps ever, I just love it.
This is the only one that I don't do at the end of the workout, the deadlift+rack pulls
are the first exercise, underhand bb rows, weighted chin/pull ups, weighted back extensions,
SLDL, leg curls follows.
The bb rows suffer a bit from the deadlift (of course) but that's why I do underhand, I have the
"heavy" bb rows a different day.
Complicated, I know

 

[3utcher]

There was an article on this somewhere, talking about how you can "prepare" you CNS just loading a bigger weight,
pick it up (not performing any rep, like for squat was just taking it out of the rack if
I remember correctly, same for bench I think..) then unload to whatever is your max and go with the set.
I think that was meant to be a technique for when you try to beat your 1RM, but the subject was then
extended to well, what I do

That's called postactivation potentiation.
You can also do it with a muscle that isn't even working during your set, i do heavy shrug before every benchpress set.

 

[mr.cooper69]

That's called postactivation potentiation.
You can also do it with a muscle that isn't even working during your set, i do heavy shrug before every benchpress set.

Yep, good stuff. One major reason I will occasionally rotate the deadlift to an upper body day.

 

[AutoKal47]

That's called postactivation potentiation.
You can also do it with a muscle that isn't even working during your set, i do heavy shrug before every benchpress set.

So it has a name as usual.. I do stuff and then find out is actually a known technique or something lol