I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

[fightnews]

Hey, bro. Would you summarize the benefits you got from pa, including approximate number of lbs added to sets, any bodyweight gained, and the time it took to see those benefits?

Ya I gained about 10 pounds right away and the biggest benefit is your muscles are noticeable fuller all the time. I used it for about 4 months straight. I've been off it for about a month but had 2 doses left. I took them the other day and the muscle fullness came right back. Ive also lost weight/strength in the last month since stopping. Ordering more tomorrow.

 

[kissdadookie]

Ya I gained about 10 pounds right away and the biggest benefit is your muscles are noticeable fuller all the time. I used it for about 4 months straight. I've been off it for about a month but had 2 doses left. I took them the other day and the muscle fullness came right back. Ive also lost weight/strength in the last month since stopping. Ordering more tomorrow.

I can understand the weight loss from coming off of it but I don't see how one would lose strength if one stops taking it though.

 

[fightnews]

10-15% weight increase for dumbbell shoulder press, dumbbell press/inclined, bench/inclined, squat, close grip bench press
pull up/different variations are easier, im able to crank out more reps within the same set. my dips are basically the same idk why

i finished altogether 3 products containing PA and im currently on my last bottle
my weight still fluctuates within the same range... maybe a pound extra

what product seem best?

 

[ELROCK]

Ya I gained about 10 pounds right away and the biggest benefit is your muscles are noticeable fuller all the time. I used it for about 4 months straight. I've been off it for about a month but had 2 doses left. I took them the other day and the muscle fullness came right back. Ive also lost weight/strength in the last month since stopping. Ordering more tomorrow.

Huh? You gained 10 lbs on it?

 

[cbsharpe]

Ya I gained about 10 pounds right away and the biggest benefit is your muscles are noticeable fuller all the time. I used it for about 4 months straight. I've been off it for about a month but had 2 doses left. I took them the other day and the muscle fullness came right back. Ive also lost weight/strength in the last month since stopping. Ordering more tomorrow.

Not doubting you, but 10lbs in 4 months time? Wowza!!!! What percentage of fat, if any, did you gain?

Every time I read about PA, I get more and more intrigued.....

 

[bananaClip]

what product seem best?

i cant tell the difference. for me long as im consistent with hitting the weights and eating somewhat right im improving
but these supplements definitely help because all this didnt happen last year this time around
my plan is to stay on PA/-epicatechin until i come across a plateau..... then change up my workout and perhaps a break

i am on my last bottle of KING and i will buy more, to me its just a much better value over micro-PA altho the microPA looks more sophisticated which makes me think it works better lol

 

[Grayson]

Is everyone dosing PA everyday?

I was thinking of incorporating while I'm doing UD2.

 

[Contaygious]

How are you dosing king?

 

[kissdadookie]

i cant tell the difference. for me long as im consistent with hitting the weights and eating somewhat right im improving
but these supplements definitely help because all this didnt happen last year this time around
my plan is to stay on PA/-epicatechin until i come across a plateau..... then change up my workout and perhaps a break

i am on my last bottle of KING and i will buy more, to me its just a much better value over micro-PA altho the microPA looks more sophisticated which makes me think it works better lol

Meh, Micro-PA isn't really more sophisticated. They just mix the PA with an emulsion to improve bioavailibility, but PA in it's powdered form doesn't seem to have bioavailibility issues to begin with so there's really no need for the emulsion in the first place.

Is everyone dosing micro-PA everyday?

I was thinking of incorporating while I'm doing UD2.

I've been using it daily but then again, I'm in the gym every single day to begin with Looking objectively at the data though, it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that one is probably safe dosing preworkout only. I don't really see how it would be all that beneficial to take it on non-training days.

 

[Swolbraham]

I didn't take it, but my brother who lifts with me did. He's 20, dog**** diet lol but has made pretty impressive progress. End if the bottle he increased his 1rm for bench by 225 -> 235, squat from 275 -> 300 and deadlift from 295 -> 315.. Granted I'm constantly badgering him to eat more but gained 3 lbs in those 4 weeks. Can't wait to try it myself. Had him split the dose from 1 cap 3x daily to 3 caps pre wo and the only difference he noted was better pumps in the gym with three caps pre

 

[kissdadookie]

I didn't take it, but my brother who lifts with me did. He's 20, dog**** diet lol but has made pretty impressive progress. End if the bottle he increased his 1rm for bench by 225 -> 235, squat from 275 -> 300 and deadlift from 295 -> 315.. Granted I'm constantly badgering him to eat more but gained 3 lbs in those 4 weeks. Can't wait to try it myself. Had him split the dose from 1 cap 3x daily to 3 caps pre wo and the only difference he noted was better pumps in the gym with three caps pre

If you're talking about King, if you're going to split the dosing, I would probably say go with 2 caps pre and 1 cap post.

 

[Swolbraham]

Ok gotcha. How come tho?

 

[fightnews]

Huh? You gained 10 lbs on it?

ya? a lot of people have

 

[bananaClip]

Meh, Micro-PA isn't really more sophisticated. They just mix the PA with an emulsion to improve bioavailibility, but PA in it's powdered form doesn't seem to have bioavailibility issues to begin with so there's really no need for the emulsion in the first place.

i mean the packaging and the capsules :jester:
its good to know that bioavailability isnt inferior in powdered form

 

[Contaygious]

So is there a cheaper pa than king? The pa only ones look more expensive from what I found and have less servings

Also, king is mos def trying to play off the myostasin stuff that is hot right now in their ads:
4.5X
SUPPORT
MYOGENIC REGULATORY
FACTORS (MRFS)*†

 

[thescience]

Ya I gained about 10 pounds right away and the biggest benefit is your muscles are noticeable fuller all the time. I used it for about 4 months straight. I've been off it for about a month but had 2 doses left. I took them the other day and the muscle fullness came right back. Ive also lost weight/strength in the last month since stopping. Ordering more tomorrow.

how long did it take you to gain the 10lbs of bodyweight? you said you lost strength when getting off of it, does that mean you gained strengh on it? if so, how many lbs did you put on your bench?

 

[fightnews]

how long did it take you to gain the 10lbs of bodyweight? you said you lost strength when getting off of it, does that mean you gained strengh on it? if so, how many lbs did you put on your bench?

i didn really track it bro sorry

 

[fightnews]

how long did it take you to gain the 10lbs of bodyweight? you said you lost strength when getting off of it, does that mean you gained strengh on it? if so, how many lbs did you put on your bench?

just try it reviews are subjective but there are enough positive 1s on this that i say go for it

 

[Grayson]

I've been using it daily but then again, I'm in the gym every single day to begin with Looking objectively at the data though, it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that one is probably safe dosing preworkout only. I don't really see how it would be all that beneficial to take it on non-training days.

I'll try it today.

I have another depletion workout and am already sore as fuark, so let's see what it does. If not, I might have to jump on the clear muscle bandwagon to speed up recovery.

 

[Contaygious]

I heard the patent failed so maybe ol can give us a better price pa now.

 

[Grayson]

just ordered two kings on amazon. Its sold out at bb com and oos/not carried there.

I heard the patent failed so maybe ol can give us a better price pa now.

Source for this news?

 

[Swolbraham]

just ordered two kings on amazon. Its sold out at bb com and oos/not carried there.

I heard the patent failed so maybe ol can give us a better price pa now.

where you hear this?

 

[Adobo]

It's around on sale for 33.99 if you look through Holiday sales.

 

[Contaygious]

Ah man, missed that sale. Oh well. I saw the chatter on bb com, but might just be rumours.

 

[Adobo]

Ah man, missed that sale. Oh well. I saw the chatter on bb com, but might just be rumours.

There is some truth that bpi/cutler might no able to restock it for a bit. The sale is through the holiday weekend .

 

[Spaniard]

I heard the patent failed so maybe ol can give us a better price pa now.

Link to info

Are you talking about the carbacyclic derivative?

 

[Contaygious]

Nothing concrete just bb com speculation because it was taken down from bb com store. Can't find the thread now...

 

[Spaniard]

Nothing concrete just bb com speculation because it was taken down from bb com store. Can't find the thread now...

Hmmmm..... cool, keep me updated

 

[alvin1]

Nothing concrete just bb com speculation because it was taken down from bb com store. Can't find the thread now...

and it was also take down fromthe bpi/cutler website! Look we will not see ki g for a while

 

[kissdadookie]

and it was also take down fromthe bpi/cutler website! Look we will not see ki g for a while

Rumour has it that the PA is in short supply right now thus for the supply shortage on King (I guess Micro-PA used up most of the supply probably). The patent that ChemiNutra had has been rejected though, not sure if they've resubmitted for a new patent or not. De__eB probably has more info on that matter.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Rumour has it that the PA is in short supply right now thus for the supply shortage on King (I guess Micro-PA used up most of the supply probably). The patent that ChemiNutra had has been rejected though, not sure if they've resubmitted for a new patent or not. De__eB probably has more info on that matter.

Lonza makes a product called Memree (or something like that) that has a high PA content. It's also loaded with PS. it's expensive though. And exclusive to some supplement I forgot the name of ATM.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

This stuff

http://lipogen.us

 

[kissdadookie]

This stuff

http://lipogen.us

I wonder which would be ultimately cheaper, PA from ChemiNutra or the stuff in lipogen.

 

[Spaniard]

I wonder which would be ultimately cheaper, PA from ChemiNutra or the stuff in lipogen.

Lipogen may have the better profile "The cells that worked for signaling mTOR were phosphatydic acid from both egg and soy, phosphatidylserine, and lysophosphatidic acid. The egg phosphatidic acid boosted mTOR signaling by 221%, but that paled in comparison to some of the others. Soy-based phosphatidic acid boosted mTOR signaling by 636%. The lysophosphatidic acid performed about the same, followed by the phosphatidylserine, which was at a little under 600%"

That was in vitro but it looks like a combo of Phosphatidic Acid and Phosphatidylserine would work well for mTOR signaling

 

[kissdadookie]

Lipogen may have the better profile "The cells that worked for signaling mTOR were phosphatydic acid from both egg and soy, phosphatidylserine, and lysophosphatidic acid. The egg phosphatidic acid boosted mTOR signaling by 221%, but that paled in comparison to some of the others. Soy-based phosphatidic acid boosted mTOR signaling by 636%. The lysophosphatidic acid performed about the same, followed by the phosphatidylserine, which was at a little under 600%"

That was in vitro but it looks like a combo of Phosphatidic Acid and Phosphatidylserine would work well for mTOR signaling

Yeah, as long as the source of the PA is from soy it should work for our purposes (it would appear, going by available data in the recent study as well as past PA data, supplementing with PA is for the purpose of getting the extracellular effect, which would make the soy derived PA preferable as that is the type that isn't easily incorporated into cell membranes).

As Royd has also noted in another thread a little while back, PS actually is a potent stimulator of mTOR as well. The problem with PS of course is that it's one of the most expensive ingredients in the dietary supplements market.

Not to mention PS also has positive effects on managing cortisol. Man, I really want high quality PS to come down in price so that I can play with very large doses of the stuff.

As for LPA, this is possibly the MOA of supplemental PA, that it gets metabolized to LPA. Thus possibly explaining why soy derived PA is more beneficial (the type that doesn't easily get absorbed into cell membranes) and why PA and LPA performed similarly in terms of stimulating mTOR.

 

[Spaniard]

Yeah, as long as the source of the PA is from soy it should work for our purposes (it would appear, going by available data in the recent study as well as past PA data, supplementing with PA is for the purpose of getting the extracellular effect, which would make the soy derived PA preferable as that is the type that isn't easily incorporated into cell membranes).

As Royd has also noted in another thread a little while back, PS actually is a potent stimulator of mTOR as well. The problem with PS of course is that it's one of the most expensive ingredients in the dietary supplements market.

Not to mention PS also has positive effects on managing cortisol. Man, I really want high quality PS to come down in price so that I can play with very large doses of the stuff.

As for LPA, this is possibly the MOA of supplemental PA, that it gets metabolized to LPA. Thus possibly explaining why soy derived PA is more beneficial (the type that doesn't easily get absorbed into cell membranes) and why PA and LPA performed similarly in terms of stimulating mTOR.

I was looking into LPA and came across everything you just posted, exactly. Lol. Except, doesn't LPA --> PA?

The LPA seemed like a viable option, possibly a better one from in vitro data. However, have you looked at the other LPA studies? I Googled LPA and came across a few studies showing it's role in carcinogenesis, heart disease and a few others. It looks like it might not be the best candidate for a supplement.

If you find a good bulk source of soy derived phosphatidylserine let me know. I'll try it out with you and we can compare notes.

 

[alvin1]

Rumour has it that the PA is in short supply right now thus for the supply shortage on King (I guess Micro-PA used up most of the supply probably). The patent that ChemiNutra had has been rejected though, not sure if they've resubmitted for a new patent or not. De__eB probably has more info on that matter.

Still make no sens to me, if they are to be out of it for a while, why did they take out the product from there page, instead of just list it out of stock? I think there is more than that at play.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

This paper gave the Lipogen breakdown. I'm not sure how that compares to King.

http://www.lipidworld.com/content/13//121

Lipids Health Dis, 2014 vol. 13 pp. 121

A soy-based phosphatidylserine/ phosphatidic acid complex (PAS) normalizes the stress reactivity of hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal-axis in chronically stressed male subjects: a randomized, placebo-controlled study

Hellhammer, J; Vogt, D; Franz, N; Freitas, U; Rutenberg, D
BACKGROUND: Supplementation with a phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylserine/ phosphatidic acid complex (PAS) has been observed to normalize stress induced dysregulations of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis (HPAA). Prolonged stress first induces a hyper-activation of the HPAA, which then can be followed by a state of hypo-activation.The aim of this study was to examine effects of an oral supplementation with 400 mg PS & 400 mg PA (PAS 400) per day on the endocrine stress response (ACTH, saliva and serum cortisol) to a psychosocial stressor. A special focus was to analyze subgroups of low versus high chronically stressed subjects as well as to test efficacy of 200 mg PS & 200 mg PA (PAS 200).
METHODS: 75 healthy male volunteers were enrolled for this double-blind, placebo-controlled study, stratified by chronic stress level, and randomly allocated to one of three study arms (placebo, PAS 200 and PAS 400 per day, respectively). Study supplementation was administered for 42 days for each participant. Chronic stress was measured with the Trier Inventory for Chronic Stress (TICS), and subgroups of high and low chronic stress were differentiated by median values as provided by the TICS authors. A six week period of supplementation was followed by an acute stress test (Trier Social Stress Test - TSST).
RESULTS: Chronic stress levels and other baseline measures did not differ between treatment groups (all p>0.05). Acute stress was successfully induced by the TSST and resulted in a hyper-responsivity of the HPAA in chronically stressed subjects. Compared to placebo, a supplementation with a daily dose of PAS 400 was effective in normalizing the ACTH (p=0.010), salivary (p=0.043) and serum cortisol responses (p=0.035) to the TSST in chronically high but not in low stressed subjects (all p>0.05). Compared to placebo, supplementation with PAS 200 did not result in any significant differences in these variables (all p>0.05). There were no significant effects of supplementation with PAS on heart rate, pulse transit time, or psychological stress response (all p>0.05).
CONCLUSION: In chronically stressed subjects, a supplementation with PAS 400 (MemreePlus) can normalize the hyper-responsivity of the HPAA to an acute stressor.
TRIAL REGISTRATION: DRKS-ID: DRKS00005125.
Type: Journal article
PMID: 25081826 | DOI
Free Full Text (full-text online)

 

[Spaniard]

This paper gave the Lipogen breakdown. I'm not sure how that compares to King.

http://www.lipidworld.com/content/13//121

Lipids Health Dis, 2014 vol. 13 pp. 121

A soy-based phosphatidylserine/ phosphatidic acid complex (PAS) normalizes the stress reactivity of hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal-axis in chronically stressed male subjects: a randomized, placebo-controlled study

Hellhammer, J; Vogt, D; Franz, N; Freitas, U; Rutenberg, D
BACKGROUND: Supplementation with a phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylserine/ phosphatidic acid complex (PAS) has been observed to normalize stress induced dysregulations of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis (HPAA). Prolonged stress first induces a hyper-activation of the HPAA, which then can be followed by a state of hypo-activation.The aim of this study was to examine effects of an oral supplementation with 400 mg PS & 400 mg PA (PAS 400) per day on the endocrine stress response (ACTH, saliva and serum cortisol) to a psychosocial stressor. A special focus was to analyze subgroups of low versus high chronically stressed subjects as well as to test efficacy of 200 mg PS & 200 mg PA (PAS 200).
METHODS: 75 healthy male volunteers were enrolled for this double-blind, placebo-controlled study, stratified by chronic stress level, and randomly allocated to one of three study arms (placebo, PAS 200 and PAS 400 per day, respectively). Study supplementation was administered for 42 days for each participant. Chronic stress was measured with the Trier Inventory for Chronic Stress (TICS), and subgroups of high and low chronic stress were differentiated by median values as provided by the TICS authors. A six week period of supplementation was followed by an acute stress test (Trier Social Stress Test - TSST).
RESULTS: Chronic stress levels and other baseline measures did not differ between treatment groups (all p>0.05). Acute stress was successfully induced by the TSST and resulted in a hyper-responsivity of the HPAA in chronically stressed subjects. Compared to placebo, a supplementation with a daily dose of PAS 400 was effective in normalizing the ACTH (p=0.010), salivary (p=0.043) and serum cortisol responses (p=0.035) to the TSST in chronically high but not in low stressed subjects (all p>0.05). Compared to placebo, supplementation with PAS 200 did not result in any significant differences in these variables (all p>0.05). There were no significant effects of supplementation with PAS on heart rate, pulse transit time, or psychological stress response (all p>0.05).
CONCLUSION: In chronically stressed subjects, a supplementation with PAS 400 (MemreePlus) can normalize the hyper-responsivity of the HPAA to an acute stressor.
TRIAL REGISTRATION: DRKS-ID: DRKS00005125.
Type: Journal article
PMID: 25081826 | DOI
Free Full Text (full-text online)

I'd be curious as to what the combo of these two would do for mTOR signaling. I might have to pick up a Lipogen, it's derived from soy lecithin, so we're good there. It's only like 300mg off the mark from king and the JISSN study PA wise.

 

[kissdadookie]

I was looking into LPA and came across everything you just posted, exactly. Lol. Except, doesn't LPA --> PA?

The LPA seemed like a viable option, possibly a better one from in vitro data. However, have you looked at the other LPA studies? I Googled LPA and came across a few studies showing it's role in carcinogenesis, heart disease and a few others. It looks like it might not be the best candidate for a supplement.

If you find a good bulk source of soy derived phosphatidylserine let me know. I'll try it out with you and we can compare notes.

I think it's PA -> LPA.
Phosphatidylcholine -> PA

So theoretically (and there's an animal study that suggests this, haven't seen a human study done for it), under physical stressors (i.e. strength training), phospholipase is released, usually this occurs at the cell membrane level, but it would appear that under physical stressors the enzyme also gets out to the peripheral of the cells (so in plazma). So this would metabolize the extracellular PA to LPA. The LPA then activates the ERK pathway which eventually stimulates mTOR. So that’s thus far the most likely way supplemental PA stimulates mTOR. This would possibly also explain why PA supplementation essentially does basically nothing when administered to sedentary subjects (sedentary subjects are missing that physical stressor component, I’m guessing with there being no phospholipase produced and getting out to the periphery of cells, the supplemental PA basically ends up getting “wasted”).

For intracellular PA, the body produces a lot of it as is when exercising especially during the eccentric movement. The main substrate for that is phospatidylcholine IIRC so if you want more intracellular PA, logic would suggest that what you want more of is phosphatidylcholine. The problem with this is that taking in a lot of phosphatidylcholine doesn’t actually lead to a lot more of it being stored in muscle cells as apparently the levels are closely regulated by the body.

This is mostly stuff I’ve extrapolated from going through a lot of the PA studies as well as what Dr. Stout and Dr. Wilson has discussed on the subject on another board.

I'd be curious as to what the combo of these two would do for mTOR signaling. I might have to pick up a Lipogen, it's derived from soy lecithin, so we're good there. It's only like 300mg off the mark from king and the JISSN study PA wise.

The more important question with that study is what impact that PA has on controlling stress (and thus affecting cortisol levels), if any. I think it’s pretty well known that PS has this effect, not sure of PAs role in this though.

For mTOR, like you’ve mentioned and like Royd mentioned in another thread, PS does stimulate mTOR, so the bigger question in my mind really is if PA+PS has any additive effects when used in combination or if you’re just better off using a higher dose of PA (plus PA from as far as I can tell is the much cheaper ingredient out of the two).

 

[Spaniard]

I think it's PA -> LPA.
Phosphatidylcholine -> PA

So theoretically (and there's an animal study that suggests this, haven't seen a human study done for it), under physical stressors (i.e. strength training), phospholipase is released, usually this occurs at the cell membrane level, but it would appear that under physical stressors the enzyme also gets out to the peripheral of the cells (so in plazma). So this would metabolize the extracellular PA to LPA. The LPA then activates the ERK pathway which eventually stimulates mTOR. So that’s thus far the most likely way supplemental PA stimulates mTOR. This would possibly also explain why PA supplementation essentially does basically nothing when administered to sedentary subjects (sedentary subjects are missing that physical stressor component, I’m guessing with there being no phospholipase produced and getting out to the periphery of cells, the supplemental PA basically ends up getting “wasted”).

For intracellular PA, the body produces a lot of it as is when exercising especially during the eccentric movement. The main substrate for that is phospatidylcholine IIRC so if you want more intracellular PA, logic would suggest that what you want more of is phosphatidylcholine. The problem with this is that taking in a lot of phosphatidylcholine doesn’t actually lead to a lot more of it being stored in muscle cells as apparently the levels are closely regulated by the body.

This is mostly stuff I’ve extrapolated from going through a lot of the PA studies as well as what Dr. Stout and Dr. Wilson has discussed on the subject on another board.



The more important question with that study is what impact that PA has on controlling stress (and thus affecting cortisol levels), if any. I think it’s pretty well known that PS has this effect, not sure of PAs role in this though.

For mTOR, like you’ve mentioned and like Royd mentioned in another thread, PS does stimulate mTOR, so the bigger question in my mind really is if PA+PS has any additive effects when used in combination or if you’re just better off using a higher dose of PA (plus PA from as far as I can tell is the much cheaper ingredient out of the two).

So what about LPA? PS had a lower percentage of mTOR signaling in comparison to both PA and LPA. LPA had the highest at 1132%

 

[Spaniard]

I don't know why it keeps cutting off the last half^^^

"In contrast, elevated mTOR signaling was observed at all tested concentrations of S-PS (529, 588, and 457%), S-LPA (649, 866, and 1,132%), and S-PA (679, 746, and 957%; P<0.05). Egg-PA induced an 873% increase in mTOR signaling with the 100µM dose (P<0.05), whereas no significant increase was observed with the 10 or 30µM doses."

 

[Spaniard]

Ridiculous... lol

http://www.jissn.com/content/10/S1/P7

 

[kissdadookie]

So what about LPA? PS had a lower percentage of mTOR signaling in comparison to both PA and LPA. LPA had the highest at 1132%

I thought about that as well. LoL. Don't have an answer to that though. Could be a myriad of reasons, not cost effective? Not orally bio-available? Etc. Would have to dig around to figure that one out I suppose.

 

[Contaygious]

Just got my kings. So you take 3 pwo? None on off days? Maybe ill try the two pwo and one post,

 

[kissdadookie]

Just got my kings. So you take 3 pwo? None on off days? Maybe ill try the two pwo and one post,

I would say that should work well most probably.

 

[TGB1987]

King is being reformulated and the new formula should be available late next week for purchase according to the cutler rep I deal with. I asked what they were changing in the formula and he said he didn't know. That tells me it is probably the PA that is being either removed or replaced. I hope I am wrong here but I know these guys have a habit of doing this with their products unfortunately. I am shocked that the rep didn't know what the changes were going to be. Doesn't make sense. He said he would email me the formula change info when he got it. If he emails it to me I will post it here. Honestly I doubt he sends me the email.

 

[Contaygious]

Whoa there! Should i order more now before they are gone with the pa?

 

[TGB1987]

They are already gone. The new one may have PA I am not sure but it concerned me that when I asked he didn't know. To me that sounds like they may trying quietly remove it. Like I said I may very well be wrong but time will tell

 

[Spaniard]

They are already gone. The new one may have PA I am not sure but it concerned me that when I asked he didn't know. To me that sounds like they may trying quietly remove it. Like I said I may very well be wrong but time will tell

It's likely going to be PA free due to Chemi-Nutra losing the patent