Will you agree to the premise that it is possible for the body to make adaptations that make the growth process more efficient?
Iron Addict
Iron Addict
Could you be more specific?Will you agree to the premise that it is possible for the body to make adaptations that make the growth process more efficient?
Iron Addict
Bullshit? No, thats what you brought it to. We were discussing training and adapting to growth but you wanted to take it to adapting to poisons and 50 sets of high intensity exercise or some other bullshit.OK, it sounds as if you are willing to admit that the body, under the correct stresses, the body will in fact increase it's ability to synthesize protein. I will also have to assume that you have read the large body of evidence (since you are so keen on studies) that has shown that squats and deadlifts are unparalleled for inducing exercise stimulated testosterone, and growth hormone production.
Now, what is more likely to push the body to make adaptations? A bunch of smaller movements that are needed to work the same amount of musculature, or one or two BIG lifts that hit 70-80% of the bodies overall muscle mass in one fell swoop AND induce test and GH production?
Remember, we are primarily discussing drug free genetically typical trainees here that need to keep the overall volume in check. If you believe ANYONE can handle high volume/high frequency training, then well......that’s a topic for another day....
If you haven't personally seen the results that MANY, MANY trainees actualize when going from a no-squat, no-deadlift routine to one using these best of the best lifts--fine. But don't say it doesn't work that way. There is a long history of this method dating back to the 40's and staying with us to the current day.
There IS adaptation that occurs outside of the specific area worked. Since you seem so studied you must have read the studies that show runners bone density goes up IN THEIR ARMS when starting a running program. And their arms are stressed how when running? I have also seen the same studies and abstracts about the same non-worked areas increasing bone density and muscle density from training. But I really don't need them to back up this argument. 20 years experience in the gym, and 10 as a trainer has provided me all the anecdotal evidence I need.
And as far as me talking generalities, it was you who stated:
The body can adapt to almost anything given time.
BULLSHIT!!
Admit it? Jesus Christ its basic **** you learn in any Physiology 101 class. Of course the body adapts, that is how you gain strenght and grow!!! Compared to someone who doens't exercise to someone who does OF COURSE the person who exercises will have an increased rate of protein synthesis. How basic can you get?!!?!?OK, it sounds as if you are willing to admit that the under the correct stresses, the body will in fact increase it's ability to synthesize protein. I will also have to assume that you have read the large body of evidence (since you are so keen on studies) that has shown that squats and deadlifts are unparalleled for inducing exercise stimulated testosterone, and growth hormone production.
!!
Yes I have seen it in competitive hockey (minor and collegiate leves) in which the majority of the exercises revolved around squats and deadlifts. Their upper bodies didn't magically grow.If you haven't personally seen the results that MANY, MANY trainees actualize when going from a no-squat, no-deadlift routine to one using these best of the best lifts--fine. But don't say it doesn't work that way. There is a long history of this method dating back to the 40's and staying with us to the current day.
BULLSHIT!!
Great, you just posted studies where SQUATS induced the hormonal output. They damn sure weren't measuring output in response to concentration curls.
You need a study for validation, people that have been there and done it don't. Put your next 10 drug-free training clients of a routine excluding squats and deads and see how well they fare.
I run a workload of 50-75 (currently 77) personal training clients and have been at this a while now, and I know from experience that those who don't use drugs, and don't or won't do the big lifts have a way harder time accruing muscle mass. Strossen wrote Super Squats, McRobert "Brawn", McCallum A zillion articles, and untold numbers of articles based on real world experience have been written since the 50's and are still get plenty of press in todays "modern" world, and it is all drivel because Bobo says so.
RIGHT! No abstract no validity-RIGHT AGAIN!
Iron Addict
With all those zillion articles and zillion books and zillion testimonials you would think they would do a study on it. Oh yeah, they did and the results were:Strossen wrote Super Squats, McRobert "Brawn", McCallum A zillion articles, and untold numbers of articles based on real world experience have been written since the 50's and are still get plenty of press in todays "modern" world, and it is all drivel because Bobo says so.
Iron Addict
hahahaha... I'm not taking sides with anyone here.. I agree with points on both sides.. but it really irks me when people say stuff like that.. doesn't make ANY sense..
LMAO....You have my number, give it to them.yeah 400+ mgs a week test does nothing for upper body growth--lol.
Again, if it's not your experience fine, but don't say it doesn't occur.
And don't just pick on me:nono: You really out to call or email Randall Strossen and Stuart McRobert and tell them they are full of ****. I have talked to Randy and Stuart both on a few occasions, and I am sure they'd be happy to field a call from you bashing their experiences with squatting and the overall effect they have on growth. www.ironmind.com and www.hardgainer.com will get you they're numbers-lol
No study no validity--LMFAO
Iron Addict
Umm, Raul, HIIT triggers a test release and that is mainly circuit training.Bobo, Im gonna give my opinions again hehe. They are not magic exercises, they are compound exercises that target the majority of our Muscle Mass (Deadlift and Squat) thus triggering an hormone response "Test" when the demand is high ie . Hard Squats or Deadlifts. That doesn't mean other exercises will increase test levels, of course anything that creates a big demand on the body will trigger them. I think with appropriate diet, those 2 exercises will add grow in the whole body.
I don't tihnk anytone cares how many clients you have currently running. That is the 3rd time you've posted that in the last 2 dyas so are we supposed to be impressed?
I suggest you read all of the studies.
QUOTE]
You have stated that YOU went from 140 to whatever you weigh about 5 times over the last 2 days. That is what no one cares about. That is a study of ONE, a 77 training client roster has at least a fair sampling of the gene pool--oh yeah, genetics don't matter--lmfao.
I don't need a damn study because I didn't learn everything I know out of a book.
Iron Addict
Oh I'm sure IA will turn this into "Bobo hates compound exercises and thinks they are satan". Then you can chime in with all the benefits.hahaha you guys are too funny. I was going to bring out some points, in favor of compound exercsises.. altho not claiming they're magical but i figured i'd let you guys go at it for a little while longer.. this is awesome
LMAO....You have my number, give it to them.
They can have a conference call with Dr. Hatfield, cofounder of ISSA.
If I take 400mg of test per week and only do squats, my arms won't get bigger (excpet for water retention). If you actually hypertrophy will occur, your nuts.
Do you always selecitvely filter out things you don't want to believe? LOL.....
Neither did I. My pic is right there for everyone to see. I practice what I preach but I also find out WHY things are happening then just believing age old myths.I don't tihnk anytone cares how many clients you have currently running. That is the 3rd time you've posted that in the last 2 dyas so are we supposed to be impressed?
I suggest you read all of the studies.
QUOTE]
You have stated that YOU went from 140 to whatever you weigh about 5 times over the last 2 days. That is what no one cares about. That is a study of ONE, a 77 training client roster has at least a fair sampling of the gene pool--oh yeah, genetics don't matter--lmfao.
I don't need a damn study because I didn't learn everything I know out of a book.
Iron Addict
IA all you ever do is give opinion on everything. THey are like assholes....
I think those exercise in a progressive mode meaning that your strength was let's say at 135lbs per 8 reps and with proper diet and nutrition you can now squat 350lbs per 8 reps, i think you are going to have big legs and you are also going to make your body more efficient in pushing weights on others compound exercises.Umm, Raul, HIIT triggers a test release and that is mainly circuit training.
If you actually tihnk the amount released is singificant within that 1 to 2 hours peroid, your severely wrong.
Yes, that is what he is saying. I'm saying its bullshit.I hope you're not serioiusly trying to say that DL/Squat will build up your whole body?
OMG.....Not at all morfiend, but when you add squats and deads to a solid routine that works upper body also the growth is usually much greater.
Iron Addict
Then you can believe it. You also believed High GI was good for you.Again im just stating my opinion , I could be wrong. But at least I can say those exercises have improved my body in a way leg extensions or lying curls could not do
Yeah, those studies are in a fantasy world and mean nothing compared to the controlled settings and meticulous log keeping of Joe BLow down the street.....LMAO!!!!!!Raul,
Your experience doesn't count because there wasn't a study conducted on you while the effects were occuring-lol
Iron Addict
I agree wholeheartedly with Lyle.But in terms of hypertrophy, the only criteria that have to be met are:
a. progressive tension overaload to the target muscle
b. adequate nutrients
In that sense, any movement that fulfills 'a' can generate hypertrophy
whether it's compound or not.
However, there is another issue: many isolation movements are very
difficult to progressively overload safely and/or with good form. That
is, as weights increase in many isolation movements (i.e. leg
extensions), joint stress starts to cause problems. For other movements
(i.e. cable crossover, concentration curl), a small incresae in weight
can totally ruin form (which means you're no longer loading hte muscle
effectively). In those two regards, compound movements may or may not
be a more effective way of providing progressive tension overload to a
given muscle.
Another issue is that heavy compound movements tend to wreck people so
quickly that it prevents them from doing too many movements overall and
overtraining. That is, with isolation only, a lot of people will do
every freaking exercise under the sun and overtrain. Wipe 'em out on a
heavy compound movement and their motivation to add lots of stupid,
little exercises tends to be gone.
Lyle
Then you can believe it. You also believed High GI was good for you.
I have already said, its not the exercise but the WAY its carried out.Yes bobo but this is different, this is about how my body responded to an specific workout not a diet in particular. I'm open for suggestions as I've and will always be for you to tell me bobo what would be a better exercise that would stimulate the kind of mass that deadlifts and squats can do, I do respect your theories and your scientific data but I want to hear what your take is on those two exercises.
:goodpost:i pulled this off of an old MFW post
I agree wholeheartedly with Lyle.
My carreer as a trainer is based on 20+ years of training and digesting everything I can both in written format and real world experience. Science as applied to bodybuilding has severe limitations and one day you will discover that.
How many studies have you read that stated item X was 7x stronger than test and "real world" results prove it to be ****. How many studies have your read that protocol X has been proven to much more effient at producing hypertrophy than protocol Y, and with a bit of searching you then find as many studies stating exactly the opposite. I have read study after study stating single set training is a worthless protocol, and then you have people like Mentzer, Dorian, or Dogcrapps system that proves itself on countless trainees to be effective. How many studies show volume training to be ineffective? TONS! Tell me volume doesn't work for plenty of people--DUH!
For each study stating one thing there is usually another contradicting it. That doesn't make them useless. I read lots of studies and abstracts, read at least 10 during the course of the day on at least 6 different boards today alone.
It's entertaining and can help one make important distictions. But if you think they are the last word on any subject you are sorely mistaken.
I base my training carrer on what works--I also know that MANY, MANY things work for different people and I damn sure don't condemn things at face value just because I I don't have experience with them.
Here are some words that may be appropriate I wrote recently after another intenet debate:
The Truth
I am going to devote today’s “tip of the day� to the “truth.�
Everybody is looking for the “truth� about what bodybuilding/powerlifting/weight training for fitness, is “really� about. If I only had a nickel for every post I have read about that describes what constitutes the absolute “ultimate reality� of effective weight training. Everyone is looking for the definitive program that lays everything out for them, step by step, at least within a reasonably definable framework of a “system� that is the system of all systems. Guaranteed to make you the god or goddess you yearn to be……………..
And the absolute truth is…….I hold the truth. Problem is so do MANY, MANY others. And the so very interesting thing about this “absolute truth� is we are all right!!!! And all wrong at the same time!!! Some of you might have guessed that I was going to get philosophical here, and I am. Because I truly believe that unless we all can share more than how to get bigger and stronger, we are only achieving a part of what can be accomplished in this arena of information exchange. We then are operating more like a raft and not the river. The raft may get you to the other side of the river, but the river is the power and energy that makes it all possible. Unless the articles and posts are helping one not only build their bodies but their minds and spirits as well, only a small percentage of the possible benefit has been achieved.
Let’s take a peek at the “truth.� Ask anyone of respected authority about what constitutes effective training for size and strength and you are sure to hear the “truth.� While there is nothing wrong with what most of the experts in the field have to say, the component that is usually lacking in their version of the truth is that it is their truth, and it will be a non-truth for many others as long as they are dogmatic in the application of their pet theory. Many of these truths are an absolute lie (or failure of progress) for a big percentage of the trainees seeking the “truth.�
Weight training, is somewhat like religion, art, and many other activities that throw in that totally unpredictable wildcard of human individuality into the equation. Ask 10 deer hunters what the best caliber for deer is. You may get 10 different answers. Ask 10 Harley riders, or street rodders what the “best� way to go fast and look cool doing it is and you may get WAY more than 10 answers. And they are all right!! Dogmatism and limited perspectives are some of the many human conditions that keep us as a species from growing and fulfilling our almost limitless possibilities. And I will tell you it is damn hard to find an activity as ruled by dogmatism and generalities “carved in stone�, as the various branches and systems of weight training.
We look at the world through our own eyes, and while it is plainly obvious that we all have eyes, it is apparently not so obvious that what we see is filtered through our own unique perspective that colors all that is experienced by our individual bodies, minds, and spirits. The way we interpret and react to any stimulus is the totality of our physical bodies, our minds, and the experiences that came before every second of “now� that have shaped how we perceive things to be. The “reality� of my perceptions, your perceptions, and the next guys, are the sum total of the mind, body, and spirit (for those, that believe they possess one (myself included) (can I do parenthesis in parenthesis) (yes, I guess I can—lol).
What you should avoid as much as possible is the belief that your belief is the only truth, and that the way that is most productive for you is the only path to the destination. If you have read much of my writings you know that I am an advocate of lower volume training. I would bet it “all� that if you picked someone at your average gym in anywhere USA, or the country of your choice. Then blindfolded them, spun them around like a contestant in a piñata bash, and told them to start walking blindly until they ran into someone, and kept doing the same thing in this blind and impartial fashion until they has 100 “picks�, they would find that the greatly larger percentage of this selectively unselected group would do much better on low, or lower volume and frequency training than what is popularly advocated by the glossy magazines that showcase the genetically elite.
These are the role models that have set the so-called standard as the best way to get huge. Be that as it may, my opinion in no way refutes the fact that some people of the group would thrive much better on high volume and frequency workouts. So……..we are back to the fact that for every “truth�, there is a “lie.� In this case the lie being all those that did better using the other guys truth. And I understand that my experience with this may be totally different than others, I can and do accept this.
Opening yourself to see that the other training and diet philosophies are valid can have more impact than you would imagine. The impact will be scaled by how you apply it. If only taken in the context of how it can be applied to your understanding of training and application to your routine and diet, it will be worthwhile. It will have significant benefits of helping you better understand what might be potentially productive options training and diet wise. Hell, if the only benefit was to stop some of the never ending “theory bashing� that goes on at many of the online forums the training world would be much improved.
But if you can use this little shift of thought to open yourself to the notion that in any human interaction there is bound to be differing viewpoints on any topic or issue of discussion you will reap the real benefits. It is absolutely amazing how much energy is wasted by peoples need to be right. People alienate themselves from those with differing views, conflict and struggle at all levels from two people in a hostile debate, to wars being fought because of peoples absolute need to be right at all costs, and inability to see that others viewpoints, no matter how “whacked� they seem to be, are still right for them. This doesn’t mean to adopt an attitude of “anything goes�, nor does it mean that you should refrain from trying to show people your point of view. It does mean that when you disagree, you agree to disagree and understand that even the most diametrically opposed viewpoint is valid for the person holding it, and you should not spend inordinate amounts of time and energy trying to beat your perspective into others.
I often find links to boards I have not been to yet and will sign-up as a board member, answer a few posts, or post an article or two, and the reaction at some boards is often downright hostile. Simply because my posts didn’t go along with the prevailing “experts� on the forum. And so it goes with life too.
Can’t we all just get along—lol, Rodney King
Iron Addict
OMG!!!!wow i can't believe i read through that thing ... thought you just wrote all that on here.. then it was just copied pasted from your site? ok, whatever..
HST seems to be THE program for hypertrophy, why dont you traininers put more people on that?
haha yeah yeah.. what do the programs look like anyways? i only know IA's is based on working one exercise every 10 days?....morfiend, me and Bobo are both luaghing our fucking asses off over your last statement.
Bobo, can I get a big syncronized OMG!
Iron Addict
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