HELP PLEASE Workout partner is a puss & wont squat help me convince him 2

[Dwight Schrute]

Now, Morfiend I do incorporate many apsects of HST in my training but the problem is its not anything new. These are basic concepts taught in any Exercise and Strength Program in college. So when people ask what is my training is like, well its really back to basics (at least to me) that is incorporated into a total mealplan. I'm not sure what IA tihnks about this but to me the majority problems that I see are not even training related. Training can be tweaked here and there but diet to me plays a MUCH more crucial part in this game. When it comes down to it, the majority of people I have trainined make more progress from changes in theri diet than changes in their training. Of course we want to get all working optimally but for me the key to making stricly lean gains or getting completely shredded is more based on diet.

 

[morfiend]

Now, Morfiend I do incorporate many apsects of HST in my training but the problem is its not anything new. These are basic concepts taught in any Exercise and Strength Program in college. So when people ask what is my training is like, well its really back to basics (at least to me) that is incorporated into a total mealplan.

Its just marketing packaged in a new name.

Gotcha, kinda figured that. Good luck with your new business.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I edited. Gave you a little bit more.

 

[lifted]

haha yeah yeah.. what do the programs look like anyways? i only know IA's is based on working one exercise every 10 days?....

:think: Nah man, IA has a lot of different programs that he uses with people. Just from reading all of his articles, I owe a lot of strength gains, and successful PCT regimens to him...

Read up bro, you'll learn a lot...

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I'm still wondering how you got that score on What-A-Shot!

 

[iron addict]

Morefiend, Then you DON'T KNOW ****. My routines are anything from very abbreviated hardgainer style to full-on volume. It is training based on the individual client. Wrote 3 waved volume routines last week. 2 mid level volume, and one abbreviated low frequency routine.

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

And they take time....much longer than people think.

 

[iron addict]

Bobo,

Agreed that nutrition is key. As long as the trainee isn't exceeding his recovery threshold many protocols can be successful. BUT.......they all fail if diet isn't nailed down correctly. Get them both optimized and great things happen!

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Man, you had to ruin it didn't you. Just when we had things going real nice!!!!



:cheers:

 

[Debaser]

I like Stuart's books too, but he's no God. He can be wrong. Your article count does not equate to your level of knowhow. I mean he believes in ribcage expansion for crying out loud.

Now look at Bryan Haycock, who not only has written many articles, but actually BACKS UP his findings! He doesn't just state anecdotal evidence (like what's going on right now).

HST is a nearly unparalleled program if your goal is hypertrophy. And even more to its credit, most of its supporters are natural hardgainers. Now if you want something to think about...how did the pre-steroid old-timers train? 3 full body workouts a week! Maybe they knew something many trainees today don't. Those that are dissing the program either haven't read enough about it, or merely don't understand it.

 

[iron addict]

Tell an experienced trainee to load their spinal culumn 3x a week with 400-600 lbs. My back damn sure isn't ready after a whole days rest to pound it again, nor is CNS--at least for me, and most people at this level.

unparalled for newbies maybe. Not newbie hardgainers, not experienced lifters either. It works well for SOME people. Unparalleled??? Hardly...

Iron Addict

 

[lifted]

I'm still wondering how you got that score on What-A-Shot!

Well Bobo, with the right training, you can become as good as yours truly....of course many factors fall into place here. Finger training to failure vs. picking your nose, and the right kind of diet that focuses on the cuticles....just to name a few... :hammer: :twisted:

 

[Debaser]

Maybe you should tell that to all of the olympic-style lifters, as well as all those on Bill Starr type 5x5 programs that they can't squat, bench or deadlift 3 times a week. It works because you're not going to failure all the time, you're working at submaximal levels. As for your muscles, most appreciable hypertrophy is over and done with after 36 hours, which is evidenced pretty concretely by scientific studies. And as for your CNS, overtraining is something that is cumulative over time. That's where Mentzer was dead wrong. Your recovery isn't determined on a workout-to-workout basis, it's calculated over longer spans of time. That's why so many people have success on the Smolov squat program, even though it's so much work with high frequency.

Ironically, going to failure, which is precisely what you preach, is by far the most taxing to the CNS.

 

[iron addict]

You know, one thing I have found is that is DOESN'T MAKE A **** what some select few can do. Most people with AVERAGE recovery just can't load their joints nor CNS that heavily with only one days rest.

What is your current squat and deadlift poundage? If it is 450+ for your working sets, not singles, and you can do this productively 3x a week count yourself fortunate and quit seeing everything through the eyes of someting you read, or your limited perspective. A large chunk of the training populas just can't do this.

Iron Addict

 

[Debaser]

I still think you misunderstand the program. You start out with 70-75% of your max. The only time you ever hit failure is one session every 2 weeks. You're not going balls to the wall all the time. If you started out with a 5 rep max of 500 lbs in the squat, the last 2 weeks in the HST cycle would look like:

375 x 5
400 x 5
425 x 5
450 x 5
475 x 5
500 x 5

 

[iron addict]

I do understand the system and also understand from experience that 400+ lbs on my back every other day is too damn much. Not a lot to understand from my perspective. And yes, I have tried doing it--no-go!

Iron Addict

 

[Debaser]

Ok we'll have to agree to disagree here. Please understand that I mean no offense whatsoever and just enjoy healthy debate...you're still a very respected bro in my book.

 

[iron addict]

And by the way, I agree Mentzer had a lot of it wrong. But you are going to be talking out your ass if you beleive it doesn't work well for many people. His last rendition of HD was just way too little volume or frequency for my tastes or opinions--but some do great on it so saying it is wrong, well is just wrong. His biggest failing was that he was much to dogmatic in his approach (ring any bells) and His diet theories, well...DAMN. But he did much for helping many rethink their approach.

I know first hand about this because I met the man and had him train me for a couple of weeks in person. I am not an advocate of his last go at HD, but know it works well for people, and a LOT of people that will fall strait on their faces doing HST may be served well by a routine such as those advocated in his second book. Go tell Dogg/Dante that his methods are wrong and will fail those that try it.

Your research will certainly prove his program horrible. But I have seen HUNDREDS of people get great results doing it.

Iron Addict

 

[morfiend]

Morefiend, Then you DON'T KNOW ****. My routines are anything from very abbreviated hardgainer style to full-on volume. It is training based on the individual client. Wrote 3 waved volume routines last week. 2 mid level volume, and one abbreviated low frequency routine.

Iron Addict

whoah buddy, I think this whole thread was about how "YOU DONT KNOW ****". where'd all this hostility come from? It was a simple question asking about your training styles.

maybe you should get away from the personal attacks, grudges, have some humility, and then you might even learn something too.

 

[bigmark1972]

:rant: Behold what I have created I am so proud!:rasp:

I think at the very least someone should acknowledge that in general it sure seems that those that squat and deadlift are bigger than those that do not. This may attitiude, drive, or whatever, just an observation. You guys must see this yourselves right? I mean the really big guys all squat or dead this is just the way it is, at least around here. Could be some sort of connection perhaps? BTW I am enjoying this battle you guys have going on as training is one of my favorite subjects.

There are legions of people that never venture toward the squat rack or do deads and very seldom do any of them impress me in any way.

 

[iron addict]

morefiend, That was posted in response to you saying how I setup my routines. You made a VERY incorrect statement, and I corrected you there was no personal attack involved at all. You said you KNOW, how I setup my routines and YOU were WRONG. Simple as that.

Iron Addict

 

[iron addict]

Bigmark,

That sure has been my experience also, but apparrently SOME people do not see the correlation.

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I think at the very least someone should acknowledge that in general it sure seems that those that squat and deadlift are bigger than those that do not. This may attitiude, drive, or whatever, just an observation. You guys must see this yourselves right? .

No. Look at the pics posted.

I also know plenty of people that are 260+ that don't do them at all.

 

[DoctorX2k2]

No. Look at the pics posted.

I also know plenty of people that are 260+ that don't do them at all.

Competing in weight class for optimal chances of winning is somewhat a different approach though. Compounds exercises are still better than a whole isolation program even though both could work... I could progress without Squats and deadlifts... but not as fast, for sure. Having a squat increasing each and every week is great for motivation.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Why? Their main exercises are deadlifts and squats, so would you think they would be fairly large. Could it be that the exercise in itself isn't as important as the WAY it is done?

Nobody said isolation exercises are better. What was said is "doing squats and deadlidts make you big" and the fact of the matter is they don't unless you do them in a way that targets hypertophy. I could do squats and deadlifts all the time geared for strength and I won't grow that much. SO once again, its the way its done, not just the exercise.

Plus, having a squat and/or deadlift that increases evey week doens't mean your growing optimally. Its two completely different types of training.

 

[iron addict]

No. Look at the pics posted.

I also know plenty of people that are 260+ that don't do them at all.

And for every pic you post of a POWERLIFTER that DOESN'T TRAIN FOR HYPERTROPHY, I can throw up 10 of bodybuilders and even a bunch of powerlifter that do them and are huge. Ronnie Colemans 800 lb deadlifts ring any bells?

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

And for every pic you post of a POWERLIFTER that DOESN'T TRAIN FOR HYPERTROPHY, I can throw up 10 of bodybuilders and even a bunch of powerlifter that do them and are huge. Ronnie Colemans 800 lb deadlifts ring any bells?

Iron Addict

I though we were talking natural here IA or do you want to get into enhacing agents.


Jesus you sound like a Flex ad.

Oh so now its training for HYPERTROPHY instead of just training with squats and deadlifts. Oh you mean that is matters HOW YOU TRAIN? Its not JUST THE EXERCISE?


Unbelievable...

 

[DoctorX2k2]

If you increase your firing rate (neural stimulation) then go for hypertrophy... will you be able to stimulate for fiber? I'm asking.

Anyways... I thought muscles never popped out of nowhere just from training and that's where nutrition came in.

I still wonder how WSM get so big... training for strenght :think:

 

[iron addict]

Well that is damn sure a better example that just throwing up a few pictures of powerlifters and then stating see, see everyone, these guys are not that big and they squat and deadlift.

And we both know it was a silly example as most Pl'ers primarily train for increased neural innervation.

iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

If you increase your firing rate (neural stimulation) then go for hypertrophy... will you be able to stimulate for fiber? I'm asking.

Anyways... I thought muscles never popped out of nowhere just from training and that's where nutrition came in.

I still wonder how WSM get so big... training for strenght :think:

No. Training for nerual stimulation doesn't stimulate growth responses. Did you actually read the articles posted in the other thread that commented in? Did you look at the pics posted from the Worlds in 2003?

It gets old repeating the same old stuff because because don't read the thread.

Are you selectively filtering out what you don't want to read?

 

[DoctorX2k2]

I though we were talking natural here IA or do you want to get into enhacing agents.


Jesus you sound like a Flex ad.

Oh so now its training for HYPERTROPHY instead of just training with squats and deadlifts. Oh you mean that is matters HOW YOU TRAIN? Its not JUST THE EXERCISE?


Unbelievable...

The question is... does hyperthophy occurs at a better rate with Squat and Deadlift when training for hypertrophy? Not : Are they absolutly needed for it?

 

[morfiend]

The question is... does hyperthophy occurs at a better rate with Squat and Deadlift when training for hypertrophy? Not : Are they absolutly needed for it?

No.

You could train for hypertrophy using a conglomerate of exercises, and grow just as well. theres nothing special about squat/deadlift.

 

[DoctorX2k2]

I didn't ask if neural stimulation stimulates more growth... I asked if a better firing rate would be useful when you turn to hypertrhophy training... and that wasnt a statement but a simple question. No need to be arrogant.

 

[DoctorX2k2]

No.

You could train for hypertrophy using a conglomerate of exercises, and grow just as well. theres nothing special about squat/deadlift.

I didn't ask if they were needed for growth... I asked if growth would occur faster with compound exercises... such as Squat and Deadlifts.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Well that is damn sure a better example that just throwing up a few pictures of powerlifters and then stating see, see everyone, these guys are not that big and they squat and deadlift.

And we both know it was a silly example as most Pl'ers primarily train for increased neural innervation.

iron Addict

Wow, IA, what happened to?

"There is something magic about squats and deadlifts."

What happened to?

"Sure does sound like you have never pulled a heavy deadlift."

So now your saying its not just doing the exercise but its HOW you do the exercise, as in training for HYPERTROPHY?!?!!?

SO either you can train for strenght and use squats and deadliofts as your main focus in which you won't grow that much, but your stregth will increase. Doesn't sound too magical there....

Or, you can actually train for hypertrophy with squats and deadlifts in which case you will grow. Doesn't sound like anything magical there....


So in conclusion maybe instead of telling people to lift heavy squats, and that they are magical you should focus on telling people to train for hypertrophy instead.

Gee, that sounds a little like something someone else said from the beginning....


LMAO!!!

 

[morfiend]

I didn't ask if neural stimulation stimulates more growth... I asked if a better firing rate would be useful when you turn to hypertrhophy training... and that wasnt a statement but a simple question. No need to be arrogant.

I'm fairly certain (w/o looking much up..) that hypertrophy has no neural involvement. It all has to do with mechanical load.

 

[DoctorX2k2]

I'm fairly certain (w/o looking much up..) that hypertrophy has no neural involvement. It all has to do with mechanical load.

Thanks damn it! That's what I wanted to know... a clear answer without twisting the question the wrong way.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Thanks damn it! That's what I wanted to know... a clear answer without twisting the question the wrong way.

It was already answered in the other thread. You obviously didn't read the article that was posted.

 

[DoctorX2k2]

Wow, IA, what happened to?

"There is something magic about squats and deadlifts."

What happened to?

"Sure does sound like you have never pulled a heavy deadlift."

So now your saying its not just doing the exercise but its HOW you do the exercise, as in training for HYPERTROPHY?!?!!?

SO either you can train for strenght and use squats and deadliofts as your main focus in which you won't grow that much, but your stregth will increase. Doesn't sound too magical there....

Or, you can actually train for hypertrophy with squats and deadlifts in which case you will grow. Doesn't sound like anything magical there....


So in conclusion maybe instead of telling people to lift heavy squats, and that they are magical you should focus on telling people to train for hypertrophy instead.

Gee, that sounds a little like something someone else said from the beginning....


LMAO!!!

I think IA meant Squat and Deads are darn great exercises for any types of training and that hypertrophy from big compound exercises was better...
You say I filter what I do not want to read, but you twist things over pretty much too. I've read the whole thread and statements have been deformed pages after pages.

 

[DoctorX2k2]

It was already answered in the other thread. You obviously didn't read the article that was posted.

The other Thread... ok... I spend my time reading every single thread, sorry, I just can't read. I'm not pro IA or pro Bobo... but you two twist things all over to your favor and it's annoying.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Reading every thread? YOU POSTED IN IT!

Good lord...

 

[DoctorX2k2]

Heh Heh... no need to go insane over it Bobo... I don't even remember which thread you're talking about.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I think IA meant Squat and Deads are darn great exercises for any types of training and that hypertrophy from big compound exercises was better...
You say I filter what I do not want to read, but you twist things over pretty much too. I've read the whole thread and statements have been deformed pages after pages.

Who said they aren't?


We're not twisting anything around, you seem to be comprehending it wrong.


IA says genetics play a huge role in competitors, I say it doens't. He says squats make your arms big. I say it doens't. He like to back up things with what happens in the gym. I use both and usually try to back it up with scientific evidence. There is the whole thread.

If you need anymore clarification, just ask.

 

[DoctorX2k2]

Then you post PLers picture... so you inplied that IA was talking about strenght training but he didn't. One thing I gotta agree with IA and DC though is the strongest BBers are generally the biggests.

He said Squat and Deadlifts are great (changed magic to great, cause that's what he really meant) exercises for hypertrophy then you said they are not needed... that's what I call a twist.

I agree with genetics though. Some people, like you, were 6'0 160 when they were teens... but puberty developpement and genetics are 2 different things.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

People were saying you must do HEAVY LIFTS to grow. So I posted PL pictures. What part of that equation do you not get? It was to show its not just the exercise, as they were claiming they were "magical" but its HOW YOU DO IT!

The biggest guys are the strongest? I'm not even going to answer that one.


Jesus, even after explaining it you still get it wrong. Must be that selective filtering again.

 

[iron addict]

Well Bobo, heavy is relative and for clarity purposes I am NOT talking low rep neural training. One of my trainees is doing 530 for 20 reps and well, he's a big boy. I am talking 8-20 reps for these lifts.

And you just keep amazing me with the "genetics have little to do with ones abilty to become a competitor" WOW-WOW-WOW! And I don't mean just getting up on the stage and being luaghed off it. If genetics don't matter how come your not as big as Cutler?

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Because I havne't been lifting for 15+ years. You know IA, those guys have been using enhancing agents at high doses and lifting the majority of their life. Why isn't Cutler as big as Coleman? Genetics. Does that mean Cutler doens't belong on stage? Nope. Asking me why I'm not as big as Cutler is laughable anyway.

Heavy is relative, but when we're talking moderate ranges, its usually consdered moderate BECAUSE of the rep range. At least that what is taught in most Exercise and Physiology classes. But I guess you can have your own classifications....but just let us in next time because when one says HEAVY LIFTS, its usually low reps. Next time, I will know what your talking about...

You keep amazing me with your complete generalizations of just about everything. I mean its a good marketing technique and everything but when you get down to the details, you generalizations are amazing.


I still love how 75g of Whey is good for digestion. Talk about WOW-WOW-WOW!!!!!

 

[iron addict]

Well it's damn sure not as great a marketing technique as stating that the biggest reason you are not as big as cutler is you haven't been training 15 years, or not as great a technique as stating you can make any of them competitors. I would never make that statement in a million years.

I do make the promise that if they are not happy with the results I will refund their money. NO ONE CAN PROMISE THEY CAN MAKE YOU A COMPETITOR REGARDLESS OF YOUR GENETIC LIMITATIONS. That is just pie in the sky fantasy.

Iron Addict

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I offer a guarantee as well, and I'm not worried.

I said 15+ years with the majority of those years using high doese of gear. Half those guys can't even have kids anymore. And we're talking about Mr. Olympia here. I said competitor on ANY level, even if its a local high school. Nowhere did I ever promise anyone Mr. Olmypia but I guess we're back to IA putting words in my mouth again. Its your typical tactic...

How about those "magical" squats and those 75g Whey shakes.....LMAO!!!!

I guess we can add in, heavy lifting really isn't heavy, its moderate weight with moderate ranges.....

 

[Dwight Schrute]

NO ONE CAN PROMISE THEY CAN MAKE YOU A COMPETITOR REGARDLESS OF YOUR GENETIC LIMITATIONS. That is just pie in the sky fantasy.

Iron Addict

And its a process that takes years and years.....You make it sound like I'm telling people I can do it in 8 weeks.

Nice try though....

Althoug my last compeititor did finish 1st, and I have a girl competing in 6 weeks that 2 years ago was about 150lbs at 5'5 with very little muscle. Sorry, I don't put limitations on people and its not all me. Its just someone guiding them in the right direction. They bust their ass and they do iut for themselves. I just try and help them get there.

Maybe you should have more people do thos "magical" squats....LOL