Green Tea (-)-epicatechin - Myostatin Inhibitor

[De__eB]

So...you're NOT gonna rip on dsade's version? Still haven't answered this.

Two reasons:

1). I generally try to stay out of other company's subforums.

2). You'll also notice there is a lot more behind Dsade's formula than just (-)-epicatechin, several well-validated and human studied ingredients. Also dsade doesn't have people making miracle claims.

 

[Geoforce]

So...you're NOT gonna rip on dsade's version? Still haven't answered this.

MyoSynergy has not been released yet and only has one ingredient in common with BLR's product. We do not get in the habit of jumping into these type of debates anyways. Matt has been working on Myo for quite a while. I have worked with him for a few years now and always been a fan. He develops products that he wants to use and that he thinks will help people based on science that he knows and/or studies. I know he believes in his product because he never releases anything he doesn't think is quality. We have a write-up that explains why we think MyoSynergy deserves a shot, and we have people who have ran it. Hopefully consumers will give it a whirl. If they enjoy it and want more then we succeeded. If they didn't, we failed.

We simply aren't a company that thinks about "competition" that much. Sure we want everyone to use our products, but all of us are fans of other companies and all of us are people who want companies to make products that work. Hell Matt has worked with all sorts of people from other companies for close to or over a decade now. I hope BLR has created a great product for people to use. We wouldn't release one if we didn't think the same thing.

The ingredient in question is a part of a bigger formula for our product. That's it. If BLR has a winner then that is fantastic news for supplement users. This industry has a ton of products that don't do what people claim. We need more that DO what people claim. We would never be against someone else making a great product as we don't really view other companies as competition. Matt's competition is against his own body and he creates products for him that he thinks other people will love. He has always been that way and we aren't about to change.

We don't have a version of BLR's product. BLR doesn't have a version of our product. We share an ingredient. We don't even know if we share the same extract %. I don't see the products as having much in common to be honest. Maybe other people do.

 

[brundel]

Surely you jest if you're saying prolactrone is superior to Inhibit P?

Mucuna Pruriens is more effective than Levodopa on its own. This is human study documented.

Vitamin B6 enhances the effects of Levodopa further. This is human study documented.

Vitex Angus reduces prolactin levels. This is again human study documented.

--

So I'm really curious how $45 Green Tea and L-dopa product is superior to a $21 Mucuna Pruriens, P5P, Vitex Angus product.

****, you could buy Inhibit-P AND our Green Tea product, for a better price than prolactrone.

Honestly, until his beta test thread, I had never even heard of brundel or his company.

Sorry no. Just no to all of that nonesense.

1. Ldopa is more efficient at reducing Prolactin than Macuna extract.
2. Vitamin b6/pyridoxine causes Ldopa to be metabolized OUTSIDE the blood brain barrier. Since dopamine cannot pass the BBB this means the only thing your getting is side effects. This is why there are drug interactions with b6 and levodopa.
3. There are also studies showing vitex raises prolactin.

4. The doses are stupid. In studies MIN 250mg ldopa was used to reduce prolactin. (Theraputic dose for parkinsons is up to 8000mg. We recommend 1-3 caps with 3 capd being 499mg ldopa.
Yours has 90mg ldopa per dose.
In studies b6 required 600 mg. I believe it was IV as well but dont quote me on that. You have 50mg p5p. So unless P5P is 1200% stronger than b6 (it isnt) then this is a joke at best besides the fact that most of the p5p just causes the Ldopa to be less effective or...at the doses you included NON effective at lowering prolactin.

In short- Inhibit p has 5.4g Ldopa.
Prolactrone has 14.9 Ldopa so close to 300%. Since this is likely the only thing in your product doing anything at all this matters.

Unfortunately even its action is inhibited by the p5p included in the formula.

Talk about taking peoples money.

This is a joke at best. There is no defense here. Inhibit P sucks. Period.


Ill put Prolactrone up to Inhibit P any time.
Ill put 10000$ into an escrow account and SNS can do the same. 20k


well run bloodwork. I already have so I know how mine works.
Feel free to step up.


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[brundel]

Administered pyridoxine hydrochloride to patients with parkinsonism who were receiving maintenance doses of levodopa. They found that large doses of pyridoxine completely eliminated the clinical effects of levodopa, while smaller doses reduced or abolished its therapeutic activity or only dyskinetic side effects. This was associated with a reduced rise in plasma dopa levels following levodopa administration. Other workers have also reported reduced clinical activity of levodopa following pyridoxine.2


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[brundel]

Oh and I posted 6-8 studies regarding -epi. You just didnt read them

 

[brundel]

Again. Please stop wasting my time.
I have better things to do. Adult things.

 

[De__eB]

Sorry no. Just no to all of that nonesense.

1. Ldopa is more efficient at reducing Prolactin than Macuna extract.
2. Vitamin b6/pyridoxine causes Ldopa to be metabolized OUTSIDE the blood brain barrier. Since dopamine cannot pass the BBB this means the only thing your getting is side effects. This is why there are drug interactions with b6 and levodopa.
3. There are also studies showing vitex raises prolactin.

4. The doses are stupid. In studies MIN 250mg ldopa was used to reduce prolactin. (Theraputic dose for parkinsons is up to 8000mg. We recommend 1-3 caps with 3 capd being 499mg ldopa.
Yours has 90mg ldopa per dose.
In studies b6 required 600 mg. I believe it was IV as well but dont quote me on that. You have 50mg p5p. So unless P5P is 1200% stronger than b6 (it isnt) then this is a joke at best besides the fact that most of the p5p just causes the Ldopa to be less effective or...at the doses you included NON effective at lowering prolactin.

In short- Inhibit p has 5.4g Ldopa.
Prolactrone has 14.9 Ldopa so close to 300%. Since this is likely the only thing in your product doing anything at all this matters.

Unfortunately even its action is inhibited by the p5p included in the formula.

Talk about taking peoples money.

This is a joke at best. There is no defense here. Inhibit P sucks. Period.


Ill put Prolactrone up to Inhibit P any time.
Ill put 10000$ into an escrow account and SNS can do the same. 20k


well run bloodwork. I already have so I know how mine works.
Feel free to step up.


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3. At doses that were much higher than ours, I'm sure you're well aware of non-linear respone curves.
4.
Re: Mucuna Pruriens dosing

5g of Mucuna Pruriens is what has been studied numerous times. Mucuna Prurueins is 3-6% L-dopa, which would be between 150-300mg of L-Dopa

2 servings per day of Inhibit-P puts you at 180mg of L-Dopa.

Conclusion? We're accurately dosed on the L-Dopa. If you're feeling really frisky and want even more L-Dopa, you can go ahead buy 2 bottles of Inhibit-P for the price of Prolactrone and quadruple dose it.

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Re: B6/Dopamine metabolism - Dopamine and Prolactin have extra-BBB activities.

--

Oh and I posted 6-8 studies regarding -epi. You just didnt read them

Sure did. None of them support the claims you're making.

 

[brundel]

So if you take double your recommended dose it will have less than ours at normal dose?
awesome.

Or if you want it to work you can buy 2 bottles of an ineffective product and quadruple the dose to achieve one dose of ours?
But it still wont work because you will have 200mg of p5p.
And really smart choice for consumers.

Regarding other activity of prolactin outside BBB.....Im glad you said this because guys using inhibit P are likely gonna have tons of prolactin to work with.

Good luck with that.


Hows it selling by the way?


I cant keep ours in stock as it sells out faster than we can produce it.

 

[punjabimunde]

So if you take double your recommended dose it will have less than ours at normal dose? awesome. Or if you want it to work you can buy 2 bottles of an ineffective product and quadruple the dose to achieve one dose of ours? But it still wont work because you will have 200mg of p5p. And really smart choice for consumers. Regarding other activity of prolactin outside BBB.....Im glad you said this because guys using inhibit P are likely gonna have tons of prolactin to work with. Good luck with that. Hows it selling by the way? I cant keep ours in stock as it sells out faster than we can produce it.

Only one word "BRAVO"!!!!

 

[De__eB]

So if you take double your recommended dose it will have less than ours at normal dose?awesome.Or if you want it to work you can buy 2 bottles of an ineffective product and quadruple the dose to achieve one dose of ours?But it still wont work because you will have 200mg of p5p.And really smart choice for consumers.Regarding other activity of prolactin outside BBB.....Im glad you said this because guys using inhibit P are likely gonna have tons of prolactin to work with.Good luck with that.Hows it selling by the way?I cant keep ours in stock as it sells out faster than we can produce it.

Double our recommended dose? Our recommended dose is 1-2 servings per day, most people are going to be taking two to go with a month per bottle.That gives them 180mg of L-dopa which is exactly in line with the amount of L-dopa in mucuna pruriens studies.

This is less than the amount of L-Dopa in L-Dopa studies because Mucuna Pruriens is more potent than L-Dopa alone.

--

The point was, if they want to believe that they need more L-Dopa, they could up their dose, and still come out ahead pricewise.--

Your red herring over P5P is pretty soundly thwarted by the study demonstrating it to enhance the prolactin reduction caused by L-Dopa. Not to mention, dopamine does not need to cross the blood brain barrier to exert its effects on prolactin.I suggest you read the following before fretting about P5P and L-Dopa:

The pituitary gland maintains its anatomical and functional connections with the brain yet sits outside the blood-brain barrier (Box 7.5). The anterior part of the sella turcica is the tuberculum sellae which is flanked by wing-like projections of the sphenoid bone known as the anterior clinoid processes. The posterior part, known as the dorsum sellae, is flanked by the posterior clinoid processes. These clinoid processes are the points of attachment of the diaphragma sellae, a reflection of the dura mater surrounding the brain. In this way, the entire pituitary gland is surrounded by dura such that the arachnoid membrane, and thus the cerebrospinal fluid, cannot enter the sella turcica.

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[mr.cooper69]

I feel like De_eb is living my life, just one year later

 

[fightnews]

It was 4 days but whos counting

The reality is this...in order to get enough of this stuff from food..lets take cocoa for example, you would need to eat like a kg of cocoa or more.
Im not 100% sure but I think this will kill you the same way even small amounts of chocolate or cocoa kills animals. Theobromine poisoning.
Im AM 100% certain you would get very ill and at least spend some time in the hospital.
Or you could eat like 300 apples in a couple hours. Also not recommended.

Im also not saying everyone is gonna see a 25% strength increase in 4 days either.
Im saying that for a fact it happened in our testing process.
As time goes on and more people eat this stuff we will see what the average is.

I tried to run a study here on the forum but guys just didnt want to do any work or get involved.
The goal of the study was to prove it worked like I say it does...let the product do the talking. BEFORE RELEASE.

instead now people will just have to take my word.
Many will who know me and us and from their experiences you can judge.

Where does everyone keep coming up with these obscure food components that might build mass? Is there no end to it? When is the well going to dry up and all the components tried?

 

[fightnews]

So you heard (-)-epicatechin can reduce myostatin response to physical stimuli by 40%?

What if I told you Vitamin D can reduce myostatin response to physical stimuli by 70%?

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We're still taking insane scientific leaps, right?

So you're saying vitamin d is the ultimate mass builder and likely to add 200 lbs to my deadlift in 3 days? Even though I only deadlift once a week

 

[De__eB]

So you're saying vitamin d is the ultimate mass builder and likely to add 200 lbs to my deadlift in 3 days? Even though I only deadlift once a week

Definitely.Can I sell vitamin D for $40 now?

 

[fightnews]

You really enjoy posting up entirely unrelated studies don't you.

I see in your profile you have a PH podcast. That why you have a hate on for natural anabolics?

Honestly that is another study not using the extract Brundel, and now EvoMuse is.

Let's just wait until release and judge the product on effectiveness the best way we can; by trying it. A few trusted AM members will soon be logging.
The initial test subjects saw good results.

That is all there is to it.

If it doesn't work can we get our money back?

 

[Piston Honda]

If it doesn't work can we get our money back?

Do you want him to lift for you too?

 

[TheNietzsche]

Where does everyone keep coming up with these obscure food components that might build mass? Is there no end to it? When is the well going to dry up and all the components tried?

There is cited research on this ingredient all over here. It's not like its being pulled from thin air.

 

[fightnews]

This is why one guy saw a 25% increase, however, it doesnt explain how every single tester saw at least 10% in a week.
It also doesnt explain 10lbs of weight gain with no food increase in a guy who has never been able to attain this weight.
or a 6 inch vertical jump increase...
Some of the increases are incredible. I actually made them send me videos as I didnt believe it.
100% certain it happened. The exact mechanism....Im unsure.

To bad it doesn't make your penis grow, 12" just isn't enough for me and I'm sure a lot of other guys could use some. When are they going to make a supplement that does that?

 

[Piston Honda]

To bad it doesn't make your penis grow, 12" just isn't enough for me and I'm sure a lot of other guys could use some. When are they going to make a supplement that does that?

If you want your penis to grow 12" :

1) find a chick with a shallower vagina
2) buy yourself a magnifying glass
3) measure yourself 6 times and add it all up

 

[cbsharpe]

To bad it doesn't make your penis grow, 12" just isn't enough for me and I'm sure a lot of other guys could use some. When are they going to make a supplement that does that?

Actually, chicks wouldn't even want it if it was that big.

 

[De__eB]

There is cited research on this ingredient all over here. It's not like its being pulled from thin air.

Preliminary research that says 'this is worth looking into'

Email Taub or Gutierrez-Salmean.

Tell them that their published documents are being used to say that (-)-epicatechin is a natural anabolic compound and will be a potent and effective myostatin inhibitor, mass builder, and strength builder in young trained lifters.

See what the response is.

 

[fightnews]

Actually, chicks wouldn't even want it if it was that big.

Who said anything about chicks?(no homo)

 

[harbonah]

Who said anything about chicks?(no homo)

No chicks and no homo.....guys who let the goat ****er in? :hijacked:

 

[Touey]

Preliminary research that says 'this is worth looking into'

Email Taub or Gutierrez-Salmean.

Tell them that their published documents are being used to say that (-)-epicatechin is a natural anabolic compound and will be a potent and effective myostatin inhibitor, mass builder, and strength builder in young trained lifters.

See what the response is.

In the early 19th century Gregor MacGregor founded the Central American nation Poyais. Londoners all invested in the newly found nation, which he published a book detailing. Alas ships of settlers from Britain set out for Poyais.

 

[Mission1]

Actually, chicks wouldn't even want it if it was that big.

Keep telling yourself that

 

[cbsharpe]

Keep telling yourself that

LOL.. OKAY. Don't believe the hype my man.

 

[toddmuelheim]

Subbed

 

[Mission1]

LOL.. OKAY. Don't believe the hype my man.

Lol... Never do.

 

[TheNietzsche]

An interesting direction, this thread went...

 

[warbird01]

Can someone please link me to the logs of these people who claim to have gained 100 lbs on their DL and 10 lbs in 10 days? Oh yeah, and they guy who claimed they felt like they were on halotestin.

 

[Piston Honda]

Can someone please link me to the logs of these people who claim to have gained 100 lbs on their DL and 10 lbs in 10 days? Oh yeah, and they guy who claimed they felt like they were on halotestin.

One guy made the 100lb claim and one guy compared it to Halotestin. Brundel is not saying this product will induce those gains.

 

[brundel]

Double our recommended dose? Our recommended dose is 1-2 servings per day, most people are going to be taking two to go with a month per bottle.That gives them 180mg of L-dopa which is exactly in line with the amount of L-dopa in mucuna pruriens studies.

This is less than the amount of L-Dopa in L-Dopa studies because Mucuna Pruriens is more potent than L-Dopa alone.
Ive already shown that this is not true. Sorry no.

--

The point was, if they want to believe that they need more L-Dopa, they could up their dose, and still come out ahead pricewise.--

Your red herring over P5P is pretty soundly thwarted by the study demonstrating it to enhance the prolactin reduction caused by L-Dopa. Not to mention, dopamine does not need to cross the blood brain barrier to exert its effects on prolactin.I suggest you read the following before fretting about P5P and L-Dopa: Cute picture but also no. Why do you think people take decarboxylase inhibitors with ldopa? To prevent metabolism outside the BBB.

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Prolactin secretion in Parkinson disease.
Eisler T, Thorner MO, MacLeod RM, Kaiser DL, Calne DB.
Abstract

We studied the dopaminergic control of lactotroph cells in the anterior pituitary of parkinsonian patients and age-matched normal subjects. The resting levels of prolactin and the TRH-induced rise in prolactin were normal in Parkinson disease. Levodopa elicited a normal suppression of prolactin concentrations in parkinsonian subjects; the major abnormality to emerge was attenuation of the response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH) in the parkinsonian patients following administration of Sinemet (levodopa plus carbidopa) or bromocriptine. These findings imply pathology of extrastriatal dopamine systems in Parkinson disease. Since the addition of carbidopa enhanced the suppression of prolactin induced by levodopa, exogenous levodopa probably acts predominantly through the formation of dopamine in the hypothalamus, but inside the blood-brain barrier, rather than as a direct effect of circulating dopamine on the anterior pituitary or areas of the hypothalamus outside the blood-brain barrier.



"Pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), in oral doses of 10 mg to 25 mg, may reverse the effects of levodopa by increasing the rate of aromatic amino acid decarboxylation. Carbidopa inhibits this action of pyridoxine".

Why do you think they use carbidopa?

 

[brundel]

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[toddmuelheim]

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[De__eB]

What if I told you that your inability to grasp the difference between what you're trying to do in a PARKINSONS PATIENT and what you're trying to do in a HEALTHY YOUNG ATHLETE doesn't mean you can keep citing studies targeted at increasing levodopa absorbption inside the BBB for parkinsons patients and have a valid point.

--

Prolactin is secreted by lactotrophs in the PITUITARY which is OUTSIDE THE BBB.

Its secretion is inhibited by dopamine. Typically, this dopamine would be secreted from the hypothalamus, however, where dopamine is being released from is irrelevant as long as it is reaching the pituitary.

 

[brundel]

This is an easy solve.

Again, Ill put Prolactrone up against inhibit p.
We can run a test with bloodwork to test prolactin levels.

If my product doesnt perform better Ill take it off the market.
If inhibit P doesnt perform better SNS removes inhibit P.

Bloodwork beats bull**** all day long.

 

[brundel]

To be fair and to save time and effort Ill tell you that initially I believed pyridoxine would help.
The first test batch of Prolactrone had pyridoxine in it.
We ran bloodwork on 4 people and it failed to lower prolactin in 2. Went up in 1. and dropped 1ng/dl in the fourth.

1/2 1 cap of prolactrone dropped my Prolactin to 5 fro 10 recently.
half a cap or 1/6th of the top end dose.


but I stand by my previous offer. Bloodwork settles all.

 

[MVatty]

Got my money on prolactrone. Step up SNS.

 

[louisaboy]

Geesh.....it was all good just a week ago.....lmao!!!! I like both Sns and Blr. Would love for this challenge to take place.

 

[brundel]

Geesh.....it was all good just a week ago.....lmao!!!! I like both Sns and Blr. Would love for this challenge to take place.

It would be fine now if they "SNS reps" would 1. stay the f out of our company forums and 2. refrain from insulting our integrity.
So, it can stop here.

Or we can continue. I took the whole weekend off.

 

[mw1]

This is an easy solve.

Again, Ill put Prolactrone up against inhibit p.
We can run a test with bloodwork to test prolactin levels.

If my product doesnt perform better Ill take it off the market.
If inhibit P doesnt perform better SNS removes inhibit P.

Bloodwork beats bull**** all day long.

Like all the bs bloodwork you provided on Formeron

 

[mw1]

Sure I would be up for the challenge if it was a controlled trial with a 3rd party administering it

 

[De__eB]

It would be fine now if they "SNS reps" would 1. stay the f out of our company forums and 2. refrain from insulting our integrity.So, it can stop here.Or we can continue. I took the whole weekend off.

1). I do stay out of your forum, you can go market to sheep all you want

2). If you're advertising something as a myostatin inhibitor, and using stock photos of myostatin gene knockout mice to market a product, you have no integrity to insult.

--

 

[Piston Honda]

1). I do stay out of your forum, you can go market to sheep all you want 2). If you're advertising something as a myostatin inhibitor, and using stock photos of myostatin gene knockout mice to market a product, you have no integrity to insult. --

If you google "myostatin inhibitor," I believe most of the image results will be what Brundel posted. Is he saying you'll look like a Belgian blue heifer? No, he's including those pictures to show what myostatin inhibition looks like. For lay people like myself who don't have the scientific knowledge of what "myostatin inhibitor" means, the pictures are valuable. If you think Brundel is saying you'll look as huge as those mice after using his product, then you are also probably the type who thinks CellTech is what made Jay Cutler so big.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

If you google "myostatin inhibitor," I believe most of the image results will be what Brundel posted. Is he saying you'll look like a Belgian blue heifer? No, he's including those pictures to show what myostatin inhibition looks like. For lay people like myself who don't have the scientific knowledge of what "myostatin inhibitor" means, the pictures are valuable. If you think Brundel is saying you'll look as huge as those mice after using his product, then you are also probably the type who thinks CellTech is what made Jay Cutler so big.

Those pictures have absolutely nothing to do with epicatechin. There has never been an animal or human that looked like that as a result of epicatechin administration. It's a way to mislead the unknowing like yourself.

 

[De__eB]

If you google "myostatin inhibitor," I believe most of the image results will be what Brundel posted. Is he saying you'll look like a Belgian blue heifer? No, he's including those pictures to show what myostatin inhibition looks like. For lay people like myself who don't have the scientific knowledge of what "myostatin inhibitor" means, the pictures are valuable. If you think Brundel is saying you'll look as huge as those mice after using his product, then you are also probably the type who thinks CellTech is what made Jay Cutler so big.

You don't think the marketing behind 'myostatin inhibitors' is in any way deceptive?You're a supplement company owner's wet dream.

 

[Piston Honda]

Those pictures have absolutely nothing to do with epicatechin. There has never been an animal or human that looked like that as a result of epicatechin administration. It's a way to mislead the unknowing like yourself.

Brundel makes claim about his product -> uses pictures to show extreme examples of what his product claims to do -> customer has an idea of what it might do

Everyone else thinks pictures are what Brundel claims you will look like -> fail to understand the whole point of why pics were used in thread -> bloviate about how the product sucks before anyone's used it yet

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Is cool with hundred LB deadlift increases and genetically altered myostatin animals being used to advertise an unknown prop blend product. But questions a whey protein product.

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#irony

 

[Piston Honda]

You don't think the marketing behind 'myostatin inhibitors' is in any way deceptive?You're a supplement company owner's wet dream.

I have used Brundel's products before. They always do what they claim to do. He has earned my benefit of doubt on this one due to his track record.

SNS' flagship product, Focus XT, was thrown out twice by me due to it being marketed as a nootropic blend, when in actuality it should have been marketed as a laxative.

 

[reps4jesus]

It seems like every time the sns reps get in these threads sh!t heats up quick. Lmao I for one would love to see the blood work between the two products. Loser has to put their product on sale?