Green Tea (-)-epicatechin - Myostatin Inhibitor

[Royd The Noyd]

So if I take green tea I'll look like RAMY, right???

J. Nutr. Biochem., 2014 vol. 25(1) pp. 91-4
Effects of (-)-epicatechin on molecular modulators of skeletal muscle growth and differentiation
Gutierrez-Salmean, G; Ciaraldi, TP; Nogueira, L; Barboza, J; Taub, PR; Hogan, MC; Henry, RR; Meaney, E; Villarreal, F; Ceballos, G; Ramirez-Sanchez, I
Sarcopenia is a notable and debilitating age-associated condition. Flavonoids are known for their healthy effects and limited toxicity. The flavanol (-)-epicatechin (Epi) enhances exercise capacity in mice, and Epi-rich cocoa improves skeletal muscle structure in heart failure patients. (-)-Epicatechin may thus hold promise as treatment for sarcopenia. We examined changes in protein levels of molecular modulators of growth and differentiation in young vs. old, human and mouse skeletal muscle. We report the effects of Epi in mice and the results of an initial proof-of-concept trial in humans, where muscle strength and levels of modulators of muscle growth were measured. In mice, myostatin and senescence-associated β-galactosidase levels increase with aging, while those of follistatin and Myf5 decrease. (-)-Epicatechin decreases myostatin and β-galactosidase and increases levels of markers of muscle growth. In humans, myostatin and β-galactosidase increase with aging while follistatin, MyoD and myogenin decrease. Treatment for 7 days with (-)-epicatechin increases hand grip strength and the ratio of plasma follistatin/myostatin. In conclusion, aging has deleterious effects on modulators of muscle growth/differentiation, and the consumption of modest amounts of the flavanol (-)-epicatechin can partially reverse these changes. This flavanol warrants its comprehensive evaluation for the treatment of sarcopenia.

 

[Driven2lift]

Just because it is one of the constituents in GTE does not mean you will get the effects lol the dose is far too small.

I assume this is in response to the new BLR product; it is a pure epicatechin extract and correctly dosed, there is no comparison

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Just because it is one of the constituents in GTE does not mean you will get the effects lol the dose is far too small.

I assume this is in response to the new BLR product; it is a pure epicatechin extract and correctly dosed, there is no comparison

Can you tell me the dose used in this study? I can....but I want to see if you can. Good luck!

 

[Royd The Noyd]

I hope the dose isnt this high:


Food Chem. Toxicol., 2010 vol. 48(1) pp. 409-16

Hepatotoxicity of high oral dose (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate in mice

Lambert, JD; Kennett, MJ; Sang, S; Reuhl, KR; Ju, J; Yang, CS

The tea polyphenol (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG) has been studied for chronic disease preventive effects, and is marketed as part of many dietary supplements. However, case-reports have associated the use of green tea-based supplements with liver toxicity. We studied the hepatotoxic effects of high dose EGCG in male CF-1 mice. A single dose of EGCG (1500 mg/kg, i.g.) increased plasma alanine aminotransferase (ALT) by 138-fold and reduced survival by 85%. Once-daily dosing with EGCG increased hepatotoxic response. Plasma ALT levels were increased 184-fold following two once-daily doses of 750 mg/kg, i.g. EGCG. Moderate to severe hepatic necrosis was observed following treatment with EGCG. EGCG hepatotoxicity was associated with oxidative stress including increased hepatic lipid peroxidation (5-fold increase), plasma 8-isoprostane (9.5-fold increase) and increased hepatic metallothionein and gamma-histone 2AX protein expression. EGCG also increased plasma interleukin-6 and monocyte chemoattractant protein-1. Our results indicate that higher bolus doses of EGCG are hepatotoxic to mice. Further studies on the dose-dependent hepatotoxic effects of EGCG and the underlying mechanisms are important given the increasing use of green tea dietary supplements, which may deliver much higher plasma and tissue concentrations of EGCG than tea beverages.

 

[Driven2lift]

Cannot draw any correlation between that study and the new product whatsoever.

That is showing EGCE induced toxicity.
Not to mention it is not in humans.

I would just wait on brundel to give his input here before this gets crazy into extrapolations and postulations.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Cannot draw any correlation between that study and the new product whatsoever.

That is showing EGCE induced toxicity.
Not to mention it is not in humans.

I would just wait on brundel to give his input here before this gets crazy into extrapolations and postulations.

But I thought we were making unwarranted observations from abstracts, no?

Also please answer my question in post #3. Thx.

 

[Driven2lift]

But I thought we were making unwarranted observations from abstracts, no?

Also please answer my question in post #3. Thx.

Unlike those studies the new product has seen human trials.
I will let this sit until Brundel can comment it is not my place I just didn't want this to explode into a product bashing thread like the recent USP release, without the reps present to comment.

Oh and FYI the catechin in your study showing hepatoxicity is completely different than the one used in Brundel's product and the study you quoted for it initially.

epicatechin is not Epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), also known as epigallocatechin-3-gallate.

Epicatechin is structurally different and also most predominantly found in cacao, not GTE.

 

[brundel]

Can you tell me the dose used in this study? I can....but I want to see if you can. Good luck!

Ive read the whole study and I def know.

 

[brundel]

I hope the dose isnt this high:


Food Chem. Toxicol., 2010 vol. 48(1) pp. 409-16

Hepatotoxicity of high oral dose (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate in mice

Lambert, JD; Kennett, MJ; Sang, S; Reuhl, KR; Ju, J; Yang, CS

The tea polyphenol (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG) has been studied for chronic disease preventive effects, and is marketed as part of many dietary supplements. However, case-reports have associated the use of green tea-based supplements with liver toxicity. We studied the hepatotoxic effects of high dose EGCG in male CF-1 mice. A single dose of EGCG (1500 mg/kg, i.g.) increased plasma alanine aminotransferase (ALT) by 138-fold and reduced survival by 85%. Once-daily dosing with EGCG increased hepatotoxic response. Plasma ALT levels were increased 184-fold following two once-daily doses of 750 mg/kg, i.g. EGCG. Moderate to severe hepatic necrosis was observed following treatment with EGCG. EGCG hepatotoxicity was associated with oxidative stress including increased hepatic lipid peroxidation (5-fold increase), plasma 8-isoprostane (9.5-fold increase) and increased hepatic metallothionein and gamma-histone 2AX protein expression. EGCG also increased plasma interleukin-6 and monocyte chemoattractant protein-1. Our results indicate that higher bolus doses of EGCG are hepatotoxic to mice. Further studies on the dose-dependent hepatotoxic effects of EGCG and the underlying mechanisms are important given the increasing use of green tea dietary supplements, which may deliver much higher plasma and tissue concentrations of EGCG than tea beverages.

Hopefully your not implying that EGCG is -epicatechin.
If we used green tea extract the amount of EGCG would be limited and the amount of epi would be close to none.

We use -epicatechin. Eventually -epicatechin does become EGCG but only a % of it.
I take 150mg EGCG daily and have for years. I feel fantastic and Im in perfect health.

The amount you would get from Follidrone would be insignificant let alone toxic.

 

[brundel]

Unlike those studies the new product has seen human trials.
I will let this sit until Brundel can comment it is not my place I just didn't want this to explode into a product bashing thread like the recent USP release, without the reps present to comment.

Oh and FYI the catechin in your study showing hepatoxicity is completely different than the one used in Brundel's product and the study you quoted for it initially.

epicatechin is not Epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), also known as epigallocatechin-3-gallate.

Epicatechin is structurally different and also most predominantly found in cacao, not GTE.

Exactly.

I dont remember saying anything about green tea extract. Its not on our label.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Ive read the whole study and I def know.

So, what does did they use in the human subjects?

 

[Royd The Noyd]

 

[brundel]

Im not sure you understand whats going on. Let me try to explain it better for you.
This chart you posted has NOTHING to do with our new product.
Our product has -epicatechin.
Not apples or raspberries or green tea. So this means literally nothing.

But lets say for example we were. Lets take the top one. Apples.
If you had 100mg of apples you would only have .0006mg EGCG.

 

[brundel]

And again. EGCG is great stuff. I take it every day and I have no hepatoxicity.

 

[brundel]

Other than that good contribution.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Im not sure you understand whats going on. Let me try to explain it better for you.
This chart you posted has NOTHING to do with our new product.
Our product has -epicatechin.
Not apples or raspberries or green tea. So this means literally nothing.

But lets say for example we were. Lets take the top one. Apples.
If you had 100mg of apples you would only have .0006mg EGCG.

Im not sure you understand whats going on. Let me try to explain it better for you.
This chart i posted has EVERYTHING to do with the thread I started.

With the knowledge this chart gives me I can buy Swanson capped cocoa for $10 and get a ton of (-)-epicatechin in my diet....and look like Ramy I guess.

 

[brundel]

Im not sure you understand whats going on. Let me try to explain it better for you.
This chart i posted has EVERYTHING to do with the thread I started.

With the knowledge this chart gives me I can buy Swanson capped cocoa for $10 and get a ton of (-)-epicatechin in my diet....and look like Ramy I guess.

Lol..





Good luck with that.

 

[fightbackhxc]

In for brohugs and brodowns.

 

[brundel]

Im not sure you understand whats going on. Let me try to explain it better for you.
This chart i posted has EVERYTHING to do with the thread I started.

With the knowledge this chart gives me I can buy Swanson capped cocoa for $10 and get a ton of (-)-epicatechin in my diet....and look like Ramy I guess.

Plus I assure you I know whats going on.
Its you who seems to be confused.

First you started a thread about green tea and epicatechin.
Then it turned into EGCG.
Then cocoa.

None of it was coherent.
Its people who dont know what they are talking about who change their stance every second because...well you have no valid point nor any understanding about the topics you are bringing up. Still not sure what your point is....
but then again neither do you.



And...youll never look like Ramy.

 

[brundel]

Plus I assure you I know whats going on.
Its you who seems to be confused.

First you started a thread about green tea and epicatechin.
Then it turned into EGCG.
Then cocoa.

None of it was coherent.
Its people who dont know what they are talking about who change their stance every second because...well you have no valid point nor any understanding about the topics you are bringing up. Still not sure what your point is....
but then again neither do you.



And...youll never look like Ramy.

Also youll die of theobromine poisoning before anything happens.


Other than that....

 

[brundel]

In for brohugs and brodowns.

Id prefer happy intelligent conversations but this whole thread was nonsense.
Since we released a product last night with epicatechin in it the thread was intentionally poking at us.
I dont appreciate it.

He can try to hug me. Well see where it goes.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Plus I assure you I know whats going on.
Its you who seems to be confused.

First you started a thread about green tea and epicatechin.
Then it turned into EGCG.
Then cocoa.

None of it was coherent.
Its people who dont know what they are talking about who change their stance every second because...well you have no valid point nor any understanding about the topics you are bringing up. Still not sure what your point is....
but then again neither do you.



And...youll never look like Ramy.

You're right it'll be hard to look like Ramy. But I sure hope my epicatechin and sugar pill can add 100lbs to my deadlift in 3 days.

 

[brundel]

You're right it'll be hard to look like Ramy. But I sure hope my epicatechin and sugar pill can add 100lbs to my deadlift in 3 days.

It was 4 days but whos counting

The reality is this...in order to get enough of this stuff from food..lets take cocoa for example, you would need to eat like a kg of cocoa or more.
Im not 100% sure but I think this will kill you the same way even small amounts of chocolate or cocoa kills animals. Theobromine poisoning.
Im AM 100% certain you would get very ill and at least spend some time in the hospital.
Or you could eat like 300 apples in a couple hours. Also not recommended.

Im also not saying everyone is gonna see a 25% strength increase in 4 days either.
Im saying that for a fact it happened in our testing process.
As time goes on and more people eat this stuff we will see what the average is.

I tried to run a study here on the forum but guys just didnt want to do any work or get involved.
The goal of the study was to prove it worked like I say it does...let the product do the talking. BEFORE RELEASE.

instead now people will just have to take my word.
Many will who know me and us and from their experiences you can judge.

 

[mr.cooper69]

I think we can chalk up that deadlift change to placebo. It reminds me of a study in which subjects who thought they were being given steroids (but they were actually placebo) had absolutely absurd increases in strength over a 1 month period. A huge component of the 1RM is neural in nature; a better test of actual muscle resilience would be a higher rep range.

 

[warbird01]

Plus I assure you I know whats going on.
Its you who seems to be confused.

First you started a thread about green tea and epicatechin.
Then it turned into EGCG.
Then cocoa.

None of it was coherent.
Its people who dont know what they are talking about who change their stance every second because...well you have no valid point nor any understanding about the topics you are bringing up. Still not sure what your point is....
but then again neither do you.



And...youll never look like Ramy.

Watch out, Royd will :data: dat ass if you are not careful.

 

[MVatty]

I think we can chalk up that deadlift change to placebo. It reminds me of a study in which subjects who thought they were being given steroids (but they were actually placebo) had absolutely absurd increases in strength over a 1 month period. A huge component of the 1RM is neural in nature; a better test of actual muscle resilience would be a higher rep range.

Mr. Cooper you seem like one of the most knowledgable members on this forum and I and many others here value your opinion. That being said do you think BLR might have something here or do you think the claims don't add up with the ingredient being used?

 

[mr.cooper69]

Mr. Cooper you seem like one of the most knowledgable members on this forum and I and many others here value your opinion. That being said do you think BLR might have something here or do you think the claims don't add up with the ingredient being used?

Thanks for the kind words. I posted on this somewhere else on the forum, forget where, but the human data is solid. You need to remember myostatin inhibition is a fairly weak pathway in someone who already weight trains...it's much more prominent in the elderly/sedentary, which the epicatechin study was conducted in.

But the ingredient has potential, and the formeron product has a pretty high dose (250mg) if it's all the (-)- isomer as brundel seems to be saying.

 

[AdelV]

What new product?? And what USP product?

 

[De__eB]

Remember when the authors of the study decided against using any human control group whatsoever?

Remember when if you have any untrained person use grip training for 7 days their grip will get stronger?

Remember when Scott Colker has been trying to shove follistatin down our throats for years?

Remember then the 41-50% reductions in myostatin from follistatin supplementation weren't enough to cause effects?

There are a plethora of HDAC inhibitors in MANY plants.

Just like there are tons of cAMP enhancers that will upregulate follistatin which would then suppress myostatin.

Garbage.

 

[De__eB]

So you heard (-)-epicatechin can reduce myostatin response to physical stimuli by 40%?

What if I told you Vitamin D can reduce myostatin response to physical stimuli by 70%?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24280059

We're still taking insane scientific leaps, right?

 

[Royd The Noyd]

If you truly think epicatechin is going to have any real world benefits in a healthy training young person I've found a reliable source for those interested. Although as Deeb pointed out, and I've been alluding too, its a pipe dream....

According to the study I posted in the first post of this thread:

"Human subjects were treated for 7 days with 25 mg of pure Epi (Sigma-Aldrich) provided in capsules bid (~1 mg/kg/day)."

That means a 200lb male needs about 90mgs of pure epicatechin for an equivalent dose.

The company CocaoWell specializes in cocoa products standardized for flavanols including epicatechin. That way you don't have to guess how much epicatechin your getting from a prop blend with maltodextrin. And you get the benefits of other flavanols.

Or there is Cocoavia which is what has been used in some of the clinical a related to cocoa and cardiovascular disease. Cocoavia makes little packs you mix in with water.

Effects of cocoa flavanols on risk factors for cardiovascular disease.

AuthorsErdman JW Jr, et al. Show all Journal
Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2008;17 Suppl 1:284-7.

Affiliation
Abstract
Epidemiologic investigations support the hypothesis that regular consumption of flavonoid-containing foods can reduce the risk of cardiovascular diseases (CVD). While flavonoids are ubiquitous in plants, cocoa can be particularly rich in a sub-class of flavonoids known as flavanols. A number of human dietary intervention trials with flavanol-containing cocoa products have demonstrated improvements in endothelial and platelet function, as well as blood pressure. These studies provide direct evidence for the potential cardiovascular benefits of flavanol-containing foods and help to substantiate the epidemiological data. In this review, results from selective published trials with cocoa and chocolate focused on risk for CVD will be discussed along with a study we recently completed evaluating the effects of the daily consumption of flavanol-containing dark chocolate (CocoaVia?) with and without plant sterol esters on CVD markers in a normotensive population with mild hypercholesterolemia. In this study, the daily consumption of flavanol-containing dark chocolate was associated with a significant mean reduction of 5.8 mmHg in systolic blood pressure. Together the results of these human dietary intervention trials provide scientific evidence of the vascular effects of cocoa flavanols and suggest that the regular consumption of cocoa products containing flavanols may reduce risk of CVD.

 

[Driven2lift]

You really enjoy posting up entirely unrelated studies don't you.

I see in your profile you have a PH podcast. That why you have a hate on for natural anabolics?

Honestly that is another study not using the extract Brundel, and now EvoMuse is.

Let's just wait until release and judge the product on effectiveness the best way we can; by trying it. A few trusted AM members will soon be logging.
The initial test subjects saw good results.

That is all there is to it.

 

[warbird01]

You really enjoy posting up entirely unrelated studies don't you.

I see in your profile you have a PH podcast. That why you have a hate on for natural anabolics?

Honestly that is another study not using the extract Brundel, and now EvoMuse is.

Let's just wait until release and judge the product on effectiveness the best way we can; by trying it. A few trusted AM members will soon be logging.
The initial test subjects saw good results.

That is all there is to it.

Royd doesn't even take PHs lol

and lol at calling rational thinking "hate."

De_eB just owned this product. You seriously still fall for supplement hype? How many times have we heard about a myo inhibitor or "holy grail" of supps over the years? Oh yeah, I am sure this is the ONE! Seriously, come back down to reality bro.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

#halfnatty

 

[Royd The Noyd]

You really enjoy posting up entirely unrelated studies don't you.

I see in your profile you have a PH podcast. That why you have a hate on for natural anabolics?

Honestly that is another study not using the extract Brundel, and now EvoMuse is.

Let's just wait until release and judge the product on effectiveness the best way we can; by trying it. A few trusted AM members will soon be logging.
The initial test subjects saw good results.

That is all there is to it.

^doesnt recognize simple connections so claims it's unrelated. Brings up unrelated topic in same post.

 

[Driven2lift]

Royd doesn't even take PHs lol

and lol at calling rational thinking "hate."

De_eB just owned this product. You seriously still fall for supplement hype? How many times have we heard about a myo inhibitor or "holy grail" of supps over the years? Oh yeah, I am sure this is the ONE! Seriously, come back down to reality bro.

I am not an expert.
I never said this would be the next great thing, nor have I promoted it whatsoever.

I just dislike something being put down without any legitimate data, the polar opposite of hype.

I prefer basing my purchases on tested, reliable feedback which is why I am looking forward to logs. It intrigued me that Brundel's testing was in young athletic men unlike any previous study.

Apologies for if I came across as being a drone falling for hype.

I simply enjoy learning about new supplemental prospects; of course I don't expect to hulk out by popping this or any pill but it does have potential merit. Cooper has stated his opinion as well and expressed his interest.

Anyways
Apologies if required for anything said

I'll be sidelined until the logs
dsade brundel

 

[Driven2lift]

^doesnt recognize simple connections so claims it's unrelated. Brings up unrelated topic in same post.

I respect your opinion and appreciate your argument; bringing potential side effects to light is never unwarranted.
It's good someone digs for them

I will leave the debating to the company reps involved.

 

[brundel]

I do agree with cooper on this to some degree, Im pretty sure some of the larger increases~ the ones I mentioned, DID have something to do with placebo effects and I dont expect everyone will see this.
This is why one guy saw a 25% increase, however, it doesnt explain how every single tester saw at least 10% in a week.
It also doesnt explain 10lbs of weight gain with no food increase in a guy who has never been able to attain this weight.
or a 6 inch vertical jump increase...
Some of the increases are incredible. I actually made them send me videos as I didnt believe it.
100% certain it happened. The exact mechanism....Im unsure.


The other good news is while I put a spotlight on the myostatin/follistatin ratio there are a TON of other things going on that increase performance and for those intelligent enough to understand the studies i posted (and others) it is evident.
I expect almost every user to see serious strength gains and significant improvements in athletic performance.
Ive taken real follistatin....it def works. It doesnt appear that the increase here is comparable to injected Folli, but, considering what happened to me when I used Folli I feel confident in saying when its high some noticeable things happen including strength and weight gain.


We tried to run a blind study using members here but not enough people stepped up.

Its a shame really.
Logs will start shortly.

One way or another.......we wont be having this discussion afterward.

 

[brundel]

Also....looks like LOTS of other companies are also planning to use this bunk ingredient all of a sudden.
But naah......it doesnt work.

Why would they do this?

 

[Touey]

I do agree with cooper on this to some degree, Im pretty sure some of the larger increases~ the ones I mentioned, DID have something to do with placebo effects and I dont expect everyone will see this.
This is why one guy saw a 25% increase, however, it doesnt explain how every single tester saw at least 10% in a week.
It also doesnt explain 10lbs of weight gain with no food increase in a guy who has never been able to attain this weight.
or a 6 inch vertical jump increase...
Some of the increases are incredible. I actually made them send me videos as I didnt believe it.
100% certain it happened. The exact mechanism....Im unsure.


The other good news is while I put a spotlight on the myostatin/follistatin ratio there are a TON of other things going on that increase performance and for those intelligent enough to understand the studies i posted (and others) it is evident.
I expect almost every user to see serious strength gains and significant improvements in athletic performance.
Ive taken real follistatin....it def works. It doesnt appear that the increase here is comparable to injected Folli, but, considering what happened to me when I used Folli I feel confident in saying when its high some noticeable things happen including strength and weight gain.


We tried to run a blind study using members here but not enough people stepped up.

Its a shame really.
Logs will start shortly.

One way or another.......we wont be having this discussion afterward.

It reminds me of a study in which subjects who thought they were being given steroids (but they were actually placebo) had absolutely absurd increases in strength over a 1 month period.

It reminds me of logs in which subjects get sprightly - using common sense not emotion on purchases will do well for most / I try things all the time just for the fun of it

 

[warbird01]

I am not an expert.
I never said this would be the next great thing, nor have I promoted it whatsoever.

I just dislike something being put down without any legitimate data, the polar opposite of hype.

I prefer basing my purchases on tested, reliable feedback which is why I am looking forward to logs. It intrigued me that Brundel's testing was in young athletic men unlike any previous study.

Apologies for if I came across as being a drone falling for hype.

I simply enjoy learning about new supplemental prospects; of course I don't expect to hulk out by popping this or any pill but it does have potential merit. Cooper has stated his opinion as well and expressed his interest.

Anyways
Apologies if required for anything said

I'll be sidelined until the logs
@dsade @brundel

De_eb posted some pretty good data...and logs are almost useless for judging a product.

 

[Piston Honda]

Are you guys gonna crap on dsade's product too, or just brundel's?

 

[brundel]

Are you guys gonna crap on dsade's product too, or just brundel's?

Dont trip about it
Ignorant posts are not going to stop this train.

notice its only SNS reps saying anything.
Failure.


maybe you guys should work on making something innovative instead of wasting my time.

 

[Jiigzz]

Dont trip about it
Ignorant posts are not going to stop this train.

notice its only SNS reps saying anything.
Failure.

maybe you guys should work on making something innovative instead of wasting my time.

Since when did Royd become an SNS rep?

 

[mr.cooper69]

It's not an SNS thing. De_eb is by nature pretty critical and inquisitive when it comes to formulas. That's a plus in my books

 

[De__eB]

Dont trip about it Ignorant posts are not going to stop this train.notice its only SNS reps saying anything.Failure.maybe you guys should work on making something innovative instead of wasting my time.

Innovative? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

-Someone else found the ingredient, had the idea, funded and published a study
-A bunch of sports nutrition blogs picked it up
-The smart ones all pointed out threshold and dosing issues

So, with 5 months of fairly widespread attention to the ingredient and study, how exactly are you 'innovating'?

You didn't even bother to find any innovative pictures of follistatin treated or myostatin knockout gened animals for your writeup.

You're the one who chose to go down the 'guys, we're selling a myostatin inhibitor' road.

Surely you understood the heat that was going to come your way when you start throwing around a category of ingredient that simply doesn't exist in an effective form yet, in spite of MILLIONS of dollars of pharma research.

-100lb increase in Deadlift in 4 days
-20lbs per arm on DB incline press in 10 days.
-6 inch gain on vert jump to 53 inches.
-one user compared the strength increase to halotestin.

Increases in mass were also reported by our internal testers including 10lbs weight gain in 10 days with what appears to be 0 BF% increase."

And claims like this, are just ridiculous.

Especially that deadlift increase one, given that myostatin inhibition in animals tested so far doesn't even increase strength.

10 lbs weight gain in 10 days, none of which was fat, while not changing nutrient intake at all either as you said in another post?

That is completely physiologically impossible.

--

To close with a nod at your witty verbage

'Maybe you should work on making something that works, instead of wasting consumers money'

 

[Piston Honda]

So...you're NOT gonna rip on dsade's version? Is it because he hasn't released a superior prolactin control supplement to the one SNS has released? Really trying to figure out why it's all directed toward brundel; figured it's competitive jealousy.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

So...you're NOT gonna rip on dsade's version? Is it because he hasn't released a superior prolactin control supplement to the one SNS has released? Really trying to figure out why it's all directed toward brundel; figured it's competitive jealousy.

Is he calling it a myostatin inhibitor and adding 20lbs per arm to inline DB press in 20 minutes as well? I highly doubt he is.

 

[De__eB]

So...you're NOT gonna rip on dsade's version? Is it because he hasn't released a superior prolactin control supplement to the one SNS has released? Really trying to figure out why it's all directed toward brundel; figured it's competitive jealousy.

Surely you jest if you're saying prolactrone is superior to Inhibit P?

Mucuna Pruriens is more effective than Levodopa on its own. This is human study documented.

Vitamin B6 enhances the effects of Levodopa further. This is human study documented.

Vitex Angus reduces prolactin levels. This is again human study documented.

--

So I'm really curious how $45 Green Tea and L-dopa product is superior to a $21 Mucuna Pruriens, P5P, Vitex Angus product.

****, you could buy Inhibit-P AND our Green Tea product, for a better price than prolactrone.

Honestly, until his beta test thread, I had never even heard of brundel or his company.

 

[Piston Honda]

So...you're NOT gonna rip on dsade's version? Still haven't answered this.