Going to be a swole recovery.... with Lean Gains

MrKleen73 said:
Good stuff Doug, and don't worry about losing too fast as long as not losing muscle there is no too fast. Starting your prep at 6-7% is not a bad thing if that is where you are... Hell then it gives you time to play with things for 3-4 months. Maybe even add a lb or two of lbm while perfecting your peak week. Give you enough time to do 2 or 3 runs at it while being extremely lean so you can really tell what to tweak, and what makes the best differences.
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If I lose faster that's ok for sure but I don't need to and a recomp would be nice for where I am at. 7% for the start of prep looks feasible right now I still have 4 weeks....
 
RickRock13 said:
I love rainbow trout!! But I dont get it very often, its mostly Tilapia for me on fish because I usually am a broke a$$ and I like to get my fish in bulk usually getting 5 or 6 lbs to put in the freezer
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Yah I use a lot of talapia also the trout at costco is huge though and reasonable for what it is. Not an every day thing but nice for a real treat..
 
Really enjoying this new training style now that I have round a way to regain my intensity.. all increases went through without a hitch.. did hamstrings, calves and arms...

I did some wheel of death afterwards really concentrating on full range I got a good 7 then just 2 and I was flat on my face. I will try very hard to increase my proficiency on this exercise...

Gobbled up a lb of lean ground beef last night on 3 multigrain flatbread buns and then a couple cups frozen yogurt, I was nicely gorged... make Doug happy...

I am definitely looking a tad bigger, I am thinking this has turned into the recomp I intended it to be. People are also conmmenting on how lean I got all of a sudden...
 
DreamWeaver said:
Ocean fish is so toxic though... I tried and I got so sick from eating it... spent a lot of time in the bathroom.. Costco has some nice rainbow trout.
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Too bad you guys werent closer. I am surrounded by some of the best salmon rivers on earth. I moved to Prince George with a freezer that would barely close full of fresh sockeye salmon. Nothing but salmon. MWA HAA HAA

I just finished reading through this whole log and you got me VERY curious about this leangains webpage. I have never even heard of it and got some new reading to do. Sounds like your results are insane so far.
 
jlinteris said:
Too bad you guys werent closer. I am surrounded by some of the best salmon rivers on earth. I moved to Prince George with a freezer that would barely close full of fresh sockeye salmon. Nothing but salmon. MWA HAA HAA

I just finished reading through this whole log and you got me VERY curious about this leangains webpage. I have never even heard of it and got some new reading to do. Sounds like your results are insane so far.
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I know about the fishing in BC, I used to live in Vernon and go any direction for great fishing and not just Salmon, Trout and what was the other almost char type Dolly Vartons or something. Hek the stream I was homesteading by that drains into Kal lake was full of pan sized rainbows...

Yah if you think you coold do well fasting and gorging (you look like a gorger to me) then this is your thang...
 
MrKleen73 said:
Good stuff Doug, and don't worry about losing too fast as long as not losing muscle there is no too fast. Starting your prep at 6-7% is not a bad thing if that is where you are... Hell then it gives you time to play with things for 3-4 months. Maybe even add a lb or two of lbm while perfecting your peak week. Give you enough time to do 2 or 3 runs at it while being extremely lean so you can really tell what to tweak, and what makes the best differences.
Click to expand...

I agree here, there really isn't any such thing as losing too fast as long as you are not sacrificing muscle!!!
 
jlinteris said:
Too bad you guys werent closer. I am surrounded by some of the best salmon rivers on earth. I moved to Prince George with a freezer that would barely close full of fresh sockeye salmon. Nothing but salmon. MWA HAA HAA

I just finished reading through this whole log and you got me VERY curious about this leangains webpage. I have never even heard of it and got some new reading to do. Sounds like your results are insane so far.
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Lucky Bas-Terd! :saevilw:
 
DreamWeaver said:
Really enjoying this new training style now that I have round a way to regain my intensity.. all increases went through without a hitch.. did hamstrings, calves and arms...

I did some wheel of death afterwards really concentrating on full range I got a good 7 then just 2 and I was flat on my face. I will try very hard to increase my proficiency on this exercise...

Gobbled up a lb of lean ground beef last night on 3 multigrain flatbread buns and then a couple cups frozen yogurt, I was nicely gorged... make Doug happy...

I am definitely looking a tad bigger, I am thinking this has turned into the recomp I intended it to be. People are also conmmenting on how lean I got all of a sudden...
Click to expand...


You have got to love that! Cool thing about the recomps that I have seen thus far are that they guys get very lean recomping while still gaining LBM. That is pretty damn cool. Make the recomp a true recomp and almost effortless compared to trying to recomp using normal dieting strategies.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I think it is just the food. Remember that when you take in large amounts of protein whether you take carbs or not there is an insulemic reaction. The body shoots out Glucagen to balance the blood sugar, stimulate an insulin spike to shuttle the nitrients into your muscle. When it is a fast breaking meal that shuttling of nutrients becomes obvious whether carbs are taken in or not. As a matter of fact I get it now whether fasting meal or any other during the day if the meal was big enough.

Lots of protein = Lots of glucagen = Lots of nutrients getting to the muscle.

I think why it wouldn't be noticed in Al's situation was that he was not fasting nor was he taking in as much food at one sitting as you are.
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I would have to disagree with the portion i have bolded and here is why:

Glucagon is a catabolic hormone which is triggered in the fasting state. Any intake of nutrients inhibits it's release in favor of insulin release. Glucagon and Insulin oppsoe each other therefore are not release at the same time.

Protein intake does stimulate insulin release. This would actually inhibit glucaon release. Insulin is released with both protein and carbs (which is why a protein shake high in leucine can induce equal amount of protein synthesis as with protein and dextrose).

Glucagon does not equalize blood sugar. That's insulin. Glucagon causes the RELEASE of blood sugar in the absence of food. Meaning when you have low circulating blood sugar, glucagon is released to induce glycogenolysis and gluconeogenesis to raise blood sugar levels preventing hypoglycemia.

An important point to remember is Glucagon and Insulin are opposing hormones. The ratio of the two is depending on your dietary intake. In the fasting state Glucagon rules. In the Fed State Insulin is king.

And as you know Insulin activates Glut IV transporters which allows for absorption of glucose. Glucagon does not activate muscle nutrient absorption b/c at the time of glucagon release there is no nutrients to absorb(b/c you are in a fasted state).
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
I would have to disagree with the portion i have bolded and here is why:

Glucagon is a catabolic hormone which is triggered in the fasting state. Any intake of nutrients inhibits it's release in favor of insulin release. Glucagon and Insulin oppsoe each other therefore are not release at the same time.

Protein intake does stimulate insulin release. This would actually inhibit glucaon release. Insulin is released with both protein and carbs (which is why a protein shake high in leucine can induce equal amount of protein synthesis as with protein and dextrose).

Glucagon does not equalize blood sugar. That's insulin. Glucagon causes the RELEASE of blood sugar in the absence of food. Meaning when you have low circulating blood sugar, glucagon is released to induce glycogenolysis and gluconeogenesis to raise blood sugar levels preventing hypoglycemia.

An important point to remember is Glucagon and Insulin are opposing hormones. The ratio of the two is depending on your dietary intake. In the fasting state Glucagon rules. In the Fed State Insulin is king.

And as you know Insulin activates Glut IV transporters which allows for absorption of glucose. Glucagon does not activate muscle nutrient absorption b/c at the time of glucagon release there is no nutrients to absorb(b/c you are in a fasted state).
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Hey..:wow:.. he is totally right, it all started to come back to me when I was reading this post and I even looked it up and double checked it and it is 100% accurate, practically right out of the textbook! Great call... REPd!
 
Thanks Andres! I may have used the wrong wording trying to quote a study, I was pretty sure it was the glucagon that was released, but it is actually the glycogen release from the liver that was signalled by the Glucagon is that more accurate?

I am going off the studies and reasoning of why ingesting protein alone causes an insulin spike. I was pretty sure it said Glucagon played a role in that. Now I have to ge reread the study and make sure I understood what I read. Are you sure that glucagon is not also released when protein only meals are eaten to tell the liver to release some of the stored glycogen in order to get the insulin response?
 
ScottyDoc said:
Hey..:wow:.. he is totally right, it all started to come back to me when I was reading this post and I even looked it up and double checked it and it is 100% accurate, practically right out of the textbook! Great call... REPd!
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haha thanks! My biochem professor would be quite proud. The man LOVED and STRESSED the insulin/glucagon ratio and all the consequences of one being high and the other low.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Thanks Andres! I may have used the wrong wording trying to quote a study, I was pretty sure it was the glucagon that was released, but it is actually the glycogen release from the liver that was signalled by the Glucagon is that more accurate?

I am going off the studies and reasoning of why ingesting protein alone causes an insulin spike. I was pretty sure it said Glucagon played a role in that. Now I have to ge reread the study and make sure I understood what I read. Are you sure that glucagon is not also released when protein only meals are eaten to tell the liver to release some of the stored glycogen in order to get the insulin response?
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Your welcome Chris! I mean heaven knows how many times you've had to correct me haha!

Yes Glucagon RELEASES glucose from stored glycogen. This initiates glycogenolysis which allows for stored glycogen to be converted to glucose that can circulate the system(but NOT in muscle tissue, muscle tissue is greedy and keeps all the glycogen and glucose for itself) keeping a homeostasis of blood glucose levels.

Now the reasong behind WHY protein causes an insulin spike would have to be via activation of pancreatic beta cells that release the insulin. The mechanism of this I am not well versed in.

Well think about this Chris, can glucagon be release when protein is ingested? Well first off what are the action of glucagon? They are all catabolic(glycogenolysis, lypolysis, gluconeogensis, stimulation of ketone body formation, etc etc). Therefore if if protein induces glucagon release, protein ingestion would be catabolic...and we all know its not. Therefore biochemically it doesnt make sense to release a catabolic hormone when you want to store and build(protein synthesis from the digested amino acids).

But can a release of endogenous glucose spike BSL high enough to trigger insulin? Not that I know of. What causes the insulin release is the ingestion of the dietary protein itself, not the release of endogenous glucose.

Also remember protein is not stored as protein. It either is used in protein synthesis, used as energy(via a number of different pathways), or stored as adipose tissue.

INgestion of BCAA being ketogenic can aid in gluconeogenesis b/c they can bypass first pass metabilism in the liver and enter muscle cells depleted of glucose to form new glucose or into hepatocytes to form new glucose as well. Even when we dont ingest glucose the body will make glucose from amino acids.

Does that answer your question? And yeah reread the study and share it b/c it sounds fascinating. It may have to do with glucagons ability to increase endogenous amino acid absorption release by tissues in the body via cartabolic protein degradation to form new glucose.
 
Thanks and Rep'd! I just went through 10 pages of your log trying to find it thinking it was a study I posted in there. We have so many excellent logs going on right now where we are all talking about hormonal activity and what not that remembering where you place something is not an easy task. Now to find that study because you know it is gonna drive me nuts until I see where I made the mistake. :)
 
MrKleen73 said:
You have got to love that! Cool thing about the recomps that I have seen thus far are that they guys get very lean recomping while still gaining LBM. That is pretty damn cool. Make the recomp a true recomp and almost effortless compared to trying to recomp using normal dieting strategies.
Click to expand...

Oh yah I'm livin the dream...

GoHardOrGoHme said:
I would have to disagree with the portion i have bolded and here is why:

Glucagon is a catabolic hormone which is triggered in the fasting state. Any intake of nutrients inhibits it's release in favor of insulin release. Glucagon and Insulin oppsoe each other therefore are not release at the same time.

Protein intake does stimulate insulin release. This would actually inhibit glucaon release. Insulin is released with both protein and carbs (which is why a protein shake high in leucine can induce equal amount of protein synthesis as with protein and dextrose).

Glucagon does not equalize blood sugar. That's insulin. Glucagon causes the RELEASE of blood sugar in the absence of food. Meaning when you have low circulating blood sugar, glucagon is released to induce glycogenolysis and gluconeogenesis to raise blood sugar levels preventing hypoglycemia.

An important point to remember is Glucagon and Insulin are opposing hormones. The ratio of the two is depending on your dietary intake. In the fasting state Glucagon rules. In the Fed State Insulin is king.

And as you know Insulin activates Glut IV transporters which allows for absorption of glucose. Glucagon does not activate muscle nutrient absorption b/c at the time of glucagon release there is no nutrients to absorb(b/c you are in a fasted state).
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I actually understood that ... good job...

MrKleen73 said:
Thanks and Rep'd! I just went through 10 pages of your log trying to find it thinking it was a study I posted in there. We have so many excellent logs going on right now where we are all talking about hormonal activity and what not that remembering where you place something is not an easy task. Now to find that study because you know it is gonna drive me nuts until I see where I made the mistake. :)
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Yah I have trouble finding stuff too... major logs going on righr now...
 
MrKleen73 said:
Thanks and Rep'd! I just went through 10 pages of your log trying to find it thinking it was a study I posted in there. We have so many excellent logs going on right now where we are all talking about hormonal activity and what not that remembering where you place something is not an easy task. Now to find that study because you know it is gonna drive me nuts until I see where I made the mistake. :)
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haha yeah I know, but it really sounds like a minor mistake or replacing one word for another or what not. You got the big picture which is the important part. The details is more for diet nerds like us! lol
 
I believe this is the study you are talking about Kleen - Invalid Link Removed

And for the record I feel that by using a very lean cut of meat (70% protein and 30% fat) in the study it may have made the insulin response seem higher then it is. I mean come on do they really suggest a steak causes more of a response then bread? If a fattier cut was used I would imagine the insulin response to be way different. Also this student was done by a Susanne Holt who was a graduate student at the time and since receiving her doctorate has never followed up on her studies preliminary results and I dont know of any other research implying what this study suggests. Begs to ask the question, why?


And on the subject of glucagon, when foods containing a high protein amount are consumed isnt there a balanced released of both insulin and glucagon and doesn't this glucagon act to raise blood sugar levels which would allow for the absorption of amino acids in the liver which would lead to their transformation to glucose? Yes protein does raise insulin but I dont think it is as high as the study tries to make it seem. Protein causes a balanced response of insulin and glucagon, the insulin is released to store the essential amino acids and the glucagon is released to keep the blood sugar stable, this is why you wont get a high blood sugar reading after eating just a steak.


A protein-rich meal leads to release of both insulin and glucagon. The latter stimulates gluconeogenesis and release of the newly formed glucose from the liver to the blood stream. The very moderate rise in insulin associated with the protein meal stimulates uptake of the sugar formed in the liver by muscle and fat tissue. - Invalid Link Removed
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I think this study is also relevant to this discussion - Invalid Link Removed
Protein increased insulin but had no effect on C-peptide or the insulin secretion rate, which suggests decreased hepatic insulin extraction or increased C-peptide clearance
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Doesn't this suggest that protein doesn't cause increased insulin levels by stimulating its release by the pancreas, but by decreasing the rate at which the liver removes insulin from the blood?

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts on this as a lot of what I post is based of assumptions and my own interpretations of things and I got a C in bio class :smashfreakB:
 
A little better job on the diet today... a) I was able to get more into my first meal it being a nwd... b) I was able to get the fat content up a bit which I believe is recommended for nwd's

12pm 12 oz chicken breast
2 cups mixed salad greens
Balsamic Vinegar
1 cup chilli
2 oranges

5pm 12oz chicken breast
1 cup rice
2 cups broccoli

8pm 6 large eggs
2 pieces Ezekiel bread
 
JudoJosh said:
I believe this is the study you are talking about Kleen - Invalid Link Removed

And for the record I feel that by using a VERY lean cut of meat in the study it may have made the insulin response seem higher then it is. I mean come on do they really suggest a steak causes more of a response then bread? If a fattier cut was used I would imagine the insulin response to be way different. Also this student was done by a Susanne Holt who was a graduate student at the time and since receiving her doctorate has never followed up on her studies preliminary results and I dont know of any other research implying what this study suggests. Begs to ask the question, why?


And on the subject of glucagon, when foods containing a high protein amount are consumed isnt there a balanced released of both insulin and glucagon and doesn't this glucagon act to raise blood sugar levels which would allow for the absorption of amino acids in the liver which would lead to their transformation to glucose? Yes protein does raise insulin but I dont think it is as high as the study tries to make it seem. Protein causes a balanced response of insulin and glucagon, the insulin is released to store the essential amino acids and the glucagon is released to keep the blood sugar stable, this is why you wont get a high blood sugar reading after eating just a steak.

I think this study is also relevant to this discussion - Invalid Link Removed

Doesn't this suggest that protein doesn't cause increased insulin levels by stimulating its release by the pancreas, but by decreasing the rate at which the liver removes insulin from the blood?

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts on this as a lot of what I post is based of assumptions and my own interpretations of things and I got a C in bio class :smashfreakB:
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The plot thickens....
 
JudoJosh said:
I believe this is the study you are talking about Kleen - Invalid Link Removed

And for the record I feel that by using a VERY lean cut of meat in the study it may have made the insulin response seem higher then it is. I mean come on do they really suggest a steak causes more of a response then bread? If a fattier cut was used I would imagine the insulin response to be way different. Also this student was done by a student who since graduated has never re-visted it or followed up on it and I dont know of any other research implying this. Begs to ask the question, why


And on the subject of glucagon, when foods containing a high protein amount are consumed isnt there a balanced released of both insulin and glucagon and doesn't this glucagon act to raise blood sugar levels which would allow for the absorption of amino acids in the liver which would lead to their transformation to glucose? Yes protein does raise insulin but I dont think it is as high as the study tries to make it seem. Protein causes a balanced response of insulin and glucagon, the insulin is released to store the essential amino acids and the glucagon is released to keep the blood sugar stable, this is why you wont get a high blood sugar reading after eating just a steak.

I think this study is also relevant to this discussion - Invalid Link Removed

Doesn't this suggest that protein doesn't cause increased insulin levels by stimulating its release by the pancreas, but by decreasing the rate at which the liver removes insulin from the blood?

I look forward to hearing everyones thoughts on this as a lot of what I post is based of assumptions and my own interpretations of things and I got a C in bio class :smashfreakB:
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NOTE: Glucagon like peptide-1 is NOT glucagon. It ACTUALLY stimulates the secretion of insulin and INHIBITS the release of glucagon. GLP-1 is a derivative of the proglucagon molecule. Proglucagon is the precursor to both glucagon and GLP-1. Both of which have opposing actions.

I had to look up the above since I never head of GLP-1 before but knew it wasnt the samething as str8 glucagon.

The question you must ask yourself is this: Does dietary intake of protein release glucagon?

The answer is it would be biochemical counterintuitive to release a catabolic hormone when the desirved activity is anabolism.

Remember when i said glucagon and insulin oppose each other? Well if they oppose each other, they will not be released simultaneously. This will cause the body to both store and to degrade simultaneously. This is a no go. Either the body is storing the food it has taken in, or it is trying to produce energy in from stored reserves.

Again GLP-1 will be released at the same time as insulin b/c it is a potent scretagogue of insulin and will potentiate its release.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
NOTE: Glucagon like peptide-1 is NOT glucagon. It ACTUALLY stimulates the secretion of insulin and INHIBITS the release of glucagon. GLP-1 is a derivative of the proglucagon molecule. Proglucagon is the precursor to both glucagon and GLP-1. Both of which have opposing actions.

I had to look up the above since I never head of GLP-1 before but knew it wasnt the samething as str8 glucagon.

The question you must ask yourself is this: Does dietary intake of protein release glucagon?

The answer is it would be biochemical counterintuitive to release a catabolic hormone when the desirved activity is anabolism.

Remember when i said glucagon and insulin oppose each other? Well if they oppose each other, they will not be released simultaneously. This will cause the body to both store and to degrade simultaneously. This is a no go. Either the body is storing the food it has taken in, or it is trying to produce energy in from stored reserves.

Again GLP-1 will be released at the same time as insulin b/c it is a potent scretagogue of insulin and will potentiate its release.
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I'll take your word for it... :ponder:
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
Again GLP-1 will be released at the same time as insulin b/c it is a potent scretagogue of insulin and will potentiate its release.
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Scretagogue.... Man that's a BIG word! LoL
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
NOTE: Glucagon like peptide-1 is NOT glucagon. It ACTUALLY stimulates the secretion of insulin and INHIBITS the release of glucagon. GLP-1 is a derivative of the proglucagon molecule. Proglucagon is the precursor to both glucagon and GLP-1. Both of which have opposing actions.

I had to look up the above since I never head of GLP-1 before but knew it wasnt the samething as str8 glucagon.

The question you must ask yourself is this: Does dietary intake of protein release glucagon?
The answer is it would be biochemical counterintuitive to release a catabolic hormone when the desirved activity is anabolism.

Remember when i said glucagon and insulin oppose each other? Well if they oppose each other, they will not be released simultaneously. This will cause the body to both store and to degrade simultaneously. This is a no go. Either the body is storing the food it has taken in, or it is trying to produce energy in from stored reserves.

Again GLP-1 will be released at the same time as insulin b/c it is a potent scretagogue of insulin and will potentiate its release.
Click to expand...


See now you got me reading and I was right in the fact that High protein meals do cause a release in glucagon. Everywhere I look I find the same result regarding that. A simple search for high protein meal and glucagon release will pull up tons of articles and studies.

One interesting thing I found is that Glucagon has no effect on skeletal muscle. So in that aspect it is not catabolic, also Glucagon and Insulin reside in the body at all times. They don't oppose each other in the aspect that they can't be in the body at the same time but they oppose each other in that they create a balance with one another.

I would have to go directly to PubMed for some other searches if needed but this is the best explanation I have found. It is quite a read but explains the insulin / glucagon balance, the different things that cause secretion of both and how they have effects on each other. Has a lot of good graphs and tables in it explaining the differences on different aspects of physiology and metabolism.

Invalid Link Removed


So we are both correct in our understanding of the process however not how they interract with one another. One interesting though comes tomind after reading this. A high protein meal causes a release in glucagon the glucagon increases insulin sensitivity. So I wonder if without fasting one could use a high protein meal void of carbs to increase glucagon increasing lypolsis and insulin sensitivy then eat a high carb containing meal and take advantage of the increase insulin sensitivity as if they had fasted most of the day. Reason I wonder this is maybe just maybe a meal of pure protien after my morning workout would supply my muscle with plenty of aminos since Glut 4 transport is increaed via muscle activity even in the absence of adequate levels of insulin, which would be the case in that situation.

Another consideration is that during physical activity the insulin release is lowered and the glucagon release is increased. Which would explain why they say not to take in carbs during your workout. It also explains why in another thread it was mentioned that studies showed that a 10-20 gram of protein meal before cardio actually increases the amount of fat burned during the session. Well if the glucagon is already elevated from the protein the hormonally you are already set to burn fat before even stepping on the treadmill then you increase the energy expenditure and glucagon release during the activity which in turn further enhances the lipolsys.

Anyway I am to excited about some of the revalations that this article has brought to my attention about other things I have been learning recently. Please go have a look at the article and let me know what you think.


Also this one just has a few references that mention that high protein causes a release in Glucagon.

Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed
Look down toward the bottom you will see a Section saying Control of Glucagon Secretion where it again referes to protein, high amino content in the blood prompting the release of glucagon.

Is it just me or is the spelling of lypolsis just elusive? I feel I spelled it wrong in at least 3 different ways through out the post.

Andres let me know if that article goes along with your current knowledge. I am assuming that it will.
 
And so the Edumacation continues....
 
ScottyDoc said:
And so the Edumacation continues....
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When you have a little time read the link from Biomed it is pretty thorough and as long as it is accurate then it gave me a huge understanding of a lot of things that have recently presented themselves to me.

I think I am in love with nutrition and what it does for the body. I so could dive into this stuff for days!!!!!!!

I wonder what the entry level pay is for a dietician.
 
MrKleen73 said:
When you have a little time read the link from Biomed it is pretty thorough and as long as it is accurate then it gave me a huge understanding of a lot of things that have recently presented themselves to me.

I think I am in love with nutrition and what it does for the body. I so could dive into this stuff for days!!!!!!!

I wonder what the entry level pay is for a dietician.
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I think a lot of that is where you are working Brotha!
 
ScottyDoc said:
I think a lot of that is where you are working Brotha!
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Yeah in a perfect world i would do the things that interest me for money and then adjust my living to my wages. However now I have to adjust my wages to my living with a family and all that comes along with it. I would love to work in a related field to fitness or nutrition but not too sure if I could maintain my kids lifestyle if I tried to make that jump. That and my son is 16 if I am paying for college it is gonna be his...

However recently, IE the past couple of years, I have just fallen in love with the power of food and hormonal reaction to it. I started learning about insulin first as a reaction to many members of my family being type 2 diabetic. I did not want to end up that way and going Hypoglycemic was something I had experienced way to many times and knew my fate if i stayed on that road. Then all the sudden controlling my insulin my weight dropped and my recovery improved as well as my overall health. Just awesome so I love it.
 
MrKleen73 said:
When you have a little time read the link from Biomed it is pretty thorough and as long as it is accurate then it gave me a huge understanding of a lot of things that have recently presented themselves to me.

I think I am in love with nutrition and what it does for the body. I so could dive into this stuff for days!!!!!!!

I wonder what the entry level pay is for a dietician.
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I thought about making that my major but after talking to a few I decided against it. The problem is if you work for a company, say a hospital, then you will need to be accredited by a board and in order for the board to accredit you, you HAVE to recommend to people what they tell you to. If you go against them, say start telling people about a low carb approach or paleo principles they will strip you of your credentials and you will have no job. I dont think I can knowingly tell people information that I feel is wrong all day long, especially if those people are looking to me for help and trust what I say and are going to follow what I say, I just cant do it.

Only way around it would be to open your own business and do consults, at least that was the impression I got from the dieticians I talked with
 
JudoJosh said:
I thought about making that my major but after talking to a few I decided against it. The problem is if you work for a company, say a hospital, then you will need to be accredited by a board and in order for the board to accredit you, you HAVE to recommend to people what they tell you to. If you go against them, say start telling people about a low carb approach or paleo principles they will strip you of your credentials and you will have no job. I dont think I can knowingly tell people information that I feel is wrong all day long, especially if those people are looking to me for help and trust what I say and are going to follow what I say, I just cant do it.

Only way around it would be to open your own business and do consults, at least that was the impression I got from the dieticians I talked with
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Yeah if anything I will have to do something like this as supplemental income and honestly I don't know that I want to spend an extra 20 hrs a week drumming up business. Although as i get older I would much rather train PT and consult on diets than greet people at WalMart at 3AM.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Yeah if anything I will have to do something like this as supplemental income and honestly I don't know that I want to spend an extra 20 hrs a week drumming up business. Although as i get older I would much rather train PT and consult on diets than greet people at WalMart at 3AM.
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Just got a mental picture of you standing there handing me a shopping cart saying "welcome to Walmart".:toofunny:

Certainly not kleens style...
 
MrKleen73 said:
See now you got me reading and I was right in the fact that High protein meals do cause a release in glucagon. Everywhere I look I find the same result regarding that. A simple search for high protein meal and glucagon release will pull up tons of articles and studies.

One interesting thing I found is that Glucagon has no effect on skeletal muscle. So in that aspect it is not catabolic, also Glucagon and Insulin reside in the body at all times. They don't oppose each other in the aspect that they can't be in the body at the same time but they oppose each other in that they create a balance with one another.

I would have to go directly to PubMed for some other searches if needed but this is the best explanation I have found. It is quite a read but explains the insulin / glucagon balance, the different things that cause secretion of both and how they have effects on each other. Has a lot of good graphs and tables in it explaining the differences on different aspects of physiology and metabolism.

Invalid Link Removed


So we are both correct in our understanding of the process however not how they interract with one another. One interesting though comes tomind after reading this. A high protein meal causes a release in glucagon the glucagon increases insulin sensitivity. So I wonder if without fasting one could use a high protein meal void of carbs to increase glucagon increasing lypolsis and insulin sensitivy then eat a high carb containing meal and take advantage of the increase insulin sensitivity as if they had fasted most of the day. Reason I wonder this is maybe just maybe a meal of pure protien after my morning workout would supply my muscle with plenty of aminos since Glut 4 transport is increaed via muscle activity even in the absence of adequate levels of insulin, which would be the case in that situation.

Another consideration is that during physical activity the insulin release is lowered and the glucagon release is increased. Which would explain why they say not to take in carbs during your workout. It also explains why in another thread it was mentioned that studies showed that a 10-20 gram of protein meal before cardio actually increases the amount of fat burned during the session. Well if the glucagon is already elevated from the protein the hormonally you are already set to burn fat before even stepping on the treadmill then you increase the energy expenditure and glucagon release during the activity which in turn further enhances the lipolsys.

Anyway I am to excited about some of the revalations that this article has brought to my attention about other things I have been learning recently. Please go have a look at the article and let me know what you think.


Also this one just has a few references that mention that high protein causes a release in Glucagon.

Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed
Look down toward the bottom you will see a Section saying Control of Glucagon Secretion where it again referes to protein, high amino content in the blood prompting the release of glucagon.

Is it just me or is the spelling of lypolsis just elusive? I feel I spelled it wrong in at least 3 different ways through out the post.

Andres let me know if that article goes along with your current knowledge. I am assuming that it will.
Click to expand...

So you're saying that a protein meal beforehand could actually enhance the effect of a carb up...

MrKleen73 said:
Yeah in a perfect world i would do the things that interest me for money and then adjust my living to my wages. However now I have to adjust my wages to my living with a family and all that comes along with it. I would love to work in a related field to fitness or nutrition but not too sure if I could maintain my kids lifestyle if I tried to make that jump. That and my son is 16 if I am paying for college it is gonna be his...

However recently, IE the past couple of years, I have just fallen in love with the power of food and hormonal reaction to it. I started learning about insulin first as a reaction to many members of my family being type 2 diabetic. I did not want to end up that way and going Hypoglycemic was something I had experienced way to many times and knew my fate if i stayed on that road. Then all the sudden controlling my insulin my weight dropped and my recovery improved as well as my overall health. Just awesome so I love it.
Click to expand...

Yah I dream of a day I can work just training and advising people in fitness...

JudoJosh said:
I thought about making that my major but after talking to a few I decided against it. The problem is if you work for a company, say a hospital, then you will need to be accredited by a board and in order for the board to accredit you, you HAVE to recommend to people what they tell you to. If you go against them, say start telling people about a low carb approach or paleo principles they will strip you of your credentials and you will have no job. I dont think I can knowingly tell people information that I feel is wrong all day long, especially if those people are looking to me for help and trust what I say and are going to follow what I say, I just cant do it.

Only way around it would be to open your own business and do consults, at least that was the impression I got from the dieticians I talked with
Click to expand...

Will the bullshyte ever end....

MrKleen73 said:
Yeah if anything I will have to do something like this as supplemental income and honestly I don't know that I want to spend an extra 20 hrs a week drumming up business. Although as i get older I would much rather train PT and consult on diets than greet people at WalMart at 3AM.
Click to expand...

I thought of that also, just work part time and do what I want on the side. I may be able to do that as a consultant...

RickRock13 said:
Just got a mental picture of you standing there handing me a shopping cart saying "welcome to Walmart".:toofunny:

Certainly not kleens style...
Click to expand...

lol and I am not seeing a happy camper in my image....
 
Aggession is getting the better of me the last few days, I am blowing my stack a bit easier now. Have to get that under control... I do get aggression from Testopro but it doesn't usually last.

I am defintely gaining a bit of size with some fat loss, I am actually looking forward to my b4 pics ...

Doing a lot of my posing practice in the mirror and always making adjustments and taking mental notes for when the mirror goes away. There will be some improvements in this department I am sure...
 
DreamWeaver said:
Aggession is getting the better of me the last few days, I am blowing my stack a bit easier now. Have to get that under control... I do get aggression from Testopro but it doesn't usually last.

I am defintely gaining a bit of size with some fat loss, I am actually looking forward to my b4 pics ...

Doing a lot of my posing practice in the mirror and always making adjustments and taking mental notes for when the mirror goes away. There will be some improvements in this department I am sure...
Click to expand...

Do you video your posing sessions? I find that videoing them is much more usefull than still shots of mandatories. It also helps us stay "big" in between poses because you notice immediately when you relax in between them on video.
 
DreamWeaver said:
So you're saying that a protein meal beforehand could actually enhance the effect of a carb up...



Yah I dream of a day I can work just training and advising people in fitness...

I thought of that also, just work part time and do what I want on the side. I may be able to do that as a consultant...



lol and I am not seeing a happy camper in my image....
Click to expand...

I am saying I beleive from what this tutorial / lesson / article says about Glucagon increasing insulin actions the next time insulin is needed could elude to that fact. It is more and idea that came from reading this than a statement of fact.

I think I would be relatively happy regardless because that is my nature but I would not be the greeter you wanted to punch in the face. Which has happened to a few of the late night greeters. Once was like a 75 year old lady. Someone just walked up punched her in the face and took off.

Dude would end up choked out and shoved into oncoming traffic in a shopping cart trying that crap on my old arse!
 
MrKleen73 said:
I am saying I beleive from what this tutorial / lesson / article says about Glucagon increasing insulin actions the next time insulin is needed could elude to that fact. It is more and idea that came from reading this than a statement of fact.

I think I would be relatively happy regardless because that is my nature but I would not be the greeter you wanted to punch in the face. Which has happened to a few of the late night greeters. Once was like a 75 year old lady. Someone just walked up punched her in the face and took off.

Dude would end up choked out and shoved into oncoming traffic in a shopping cart trying that crap on my old arse!
Click to expand...

:firedevil: Welcome to Walmart... Azzhole!!! :firedevil:
 
Subbing in, though I don't know if I'll be able to keep up with the post count here! DW threads move fast and pick up lots of posts (and lots of info!).
 
MrKleen73 said:
You have got to love that! Cool thing about the recomps that I have seen thus far are that they guys get very lean recomping while still gaining LBM. That is pretty damn cool. Make the recomp a true recomp and almost effortless compared to trying to recomp using normal dieting strategies.
Click to expand...

Getting lean and adding LBM is very cool!!!
 
Milas said:
Subbing in, though I don't know if I'll be able to keep up with the post count here! DW threads move fast and pick up lots of posts (and lots of info!).
Click to expand...

Just go for the meat... although these thread does seem pretty meaty...:yup:
 
Milas said:
Subbing in, though I don't know if I'll be able to keep up with the post count here! DW threads move fast and pick up lots of posts (and lots of info!).
Click to expand...

At least you are'nt jumping in the middle of GoHard's thread he is at 30 pages now... If you do go to it go back at least 12 pages in his there is a lot of good info and some studies in that area.
 
Milas said:
Subbing in, though I don't know if I'll be able to keep up with the post count here! DW threads move fast and pick up lots of posts (and lots of info!).
Click to expand...

There's always lots of good stuff and plenty to learn in a DW thread :)
 
Workout last night was short and sweet, handling my increases very well.. this is normally my night to do ab core work but when I started the bar of death every muscle in my abdominal core cramped up... it was the wheel of death I did on Tuesday paying me back. I packed it up and went home. I guess it's going to be a couple weeks before I can do this after doing wod's, plus my routine is very core intensive right now...

I ate well yesterday..

12pm 12 oz Chicken breast
2 cups salad greens with balsamic dressing

1:30pm 2 granny smith apples

4:30pm Workout

6pm shake 2 scoops

7pm 16 oz Sirloin
2 cups cooked par boiled rice
2 cups brocolli
2.5 cups frozen yogurt.

Weigh in up .75 lbs from last week, so I was right because I am definitely leaner and I thought I was looking bigger..
 
I have to say, I was a bit puzzled at first about the sudden fat burn to recomp mode when I hadn't changed anything about my diet... my theory is that now that my body has climatized to the new feeding style it has become very efficient. This diet definitely increases protein syntheis, I don't know the science but I have experience to know what is happening with my body. I predict a slow weight gain for the next 3 weeks...I will probably end up around 212 if this trend continues..

The stack I am on definitely is contributing to the recomp, of that I have no doubt. Swole, Erase and Osta are an awesome combination.
 
Still SUBd and just quietly learning, keep the good information coming guys. Thanks!
 
MrKleen73 said:
See now you got me reading and I was right in the fact that High protein meals do cause a release in glucagon. Everywhere I look I find the same result regarding that. A simple search for high protein meal and glucagon release will pull up tons of articles and studies.

One interesting thing I found is that Glucagon has no effect on skeletal muscle. So in that aspect it is not catabolic, also Glucagon and Insulin reside in the body at all times. They don't oppose each other in the aspect that they can't be in the body at the same time but they oppose each other in that they create a balance with one another.

I would have to go directly to PubMed for some other searches if needed but this is the best explanation I have found. It is quite a read but explains the insulin / glucagon balance, the different things that cause secretion of both and how they have effects on each other. Has a lot of good graphs and tables in it explaining the differences on different aspects of physiology and metabolism.

Invalid Link Removed


So we are both correct in our understanding of the process however not how they interract with one another. One interesting though comes tomind after reading this. A high protein meal causes a release in glucagon the glucagon increases insulin sensitivity. So I wonder if without fasting one could use a high protein meal void of carbs to increase glucagon increasing lypolsis and insulin sensitivy then eat a high carb containing meal and take advantage of the increase insulin sensitivity as if they had fasted most of the day. Reason I wonder this is maybe just maybe a meal of pure protien after my morning workout would supply my muscle with plenty of aminos since Glut 4 transport is increaed via muscle activity even in the absence of adequate levels of insulin, which would be the case in that situation.

Another consideration is that during physical activity the insulin release is lowered and the glucagon release is increased. Which would explain why they say not to take in carbs during your workout. It also explains why in another thread it was mentioned that studies showed that a 10-20 gram of protein meal before cardio actually increases the amount of fat burned during the session. Well if the glucagon is already elevated from the protein the hormonally you are already set to burn fat before even stepping on the treadmill then you increase the energy expenditure and glucagon release during the activity which in turn further enhances the lipolsys.

Anyway I am to excited about some of the revalations that this article has brought to my attention about other things I have been learning recently. Please go have a look at the article and let me know what you think.


Also this one just has a few references that mention that high protein causes a release in Glucagon.

Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed
Look down toward the bottom you will see a Section saying Control of Glucagon Secretion where it again referes to protein, high amino content in the blood prompting the release of glucagon.

Is it just me or is the spelling of lypolsis just elusive? I feel I spelled it wrong in at least 3 different ways through out the post.

Andres let me know if that article goes along with your current knowledge. I am assuming that it will.
Click to expand...


Ok lets see if we can work through this one point at a time.

Glucagon like peptide is release on the ingestion of high protein meals. Remember what i said the glucagon like peptide is not glucagon? Its a derivative of proglucagon that actually potentiates insulin release.


Invalid Link Removed

I feel many individuals make the mistake to state glucagon like peptide is the same as glucagon itself. These are two different hormonse in the body with two different actions.

Catabolic means break down. I am not talking about muscle catabolism...but catabolic process like that of lypolysis stimulated by glucagon when it activates Horomone Senstive Lipase. Remember we want catabolism...without it we cannot generate ATP. Glycolysis is Catabolic...it breaksdown Glucose to ATP and 2pyruvate. So glucagon is a catabolic hormone b/c the pathways which it induces break down stored materials.

When i said the opppose each other what I meant by that is that they induce OPPOSITE pathways. You are 100% correct they are present at all times...creating a ration of the two. This is called the insulin to glucagon ratio(or vice versa). This ratio dictates what pathways are activated. Example...insulin ratio is high body wants to build and store. Glucagon ratio is high body wants to create energy from stored reserves.


I feel the confusion here is the in understanding that Glucagon is different from Glucagon Like Peptides

Invalid Link Removed

And here is a site that explains the 3 derivatives of proglucagon

Invalid Link Removed
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
Ok lets see if we can work through this one point at a time.

Glucagon like peptide is release on the ingestion of high protein meals. Remember what i said the glucagon like peptide is not glucagon? Its a derivative of proglucagon that actually potentiates insulin release.


Invalid Link Removed

I feel many individuals make the mistake to state glucagon like peptide is the same as glucagon itself. These are two different hormonse in the body with two different actions.

Catabolic means break down. I am not talking about muscle catabolism...but catabolic process like that of lypolysis stimulated by glucagon when it activates Horomone Senstive Lipase. Remember we want catabolism...without it we cannot generate ATP. Glycolysis is Catabolic...it breaksdown Glucose to ATP and 2pyruvate. So glucagon is a catabolic hormone b/c the pathways which it induces break down stored materials.

When i said the opppose each other what I meant by that is that they induce OPPOSITE pathways. You are 100% correct they are present at all times...creating a ration of the two. This is called the insulin to glucagon ratio(or vice versa). This ratio dictates what pathways are activated. Example...insulin ratio is high body wants to build and store. Glucagon ratio is high body wants to create energy from stored reserves.


I feel the confusion here is the in understanding that Glucagon is different from Glucagon Like Peptides

Invalid Link Removed

And here is a site that explains the 3 derivatives of proglucagon

Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Excellent! More reading and learning! In reading the study I posted it mentioned that Glucagon was the stored version and the active metabolite was glucagon like peptides i "believe". I know there was definitely a reference.

However more importantly is that the reactions that I knew happened are the same but I should have been referring to the Glucagon Like Peptides? You don't have to answer that if major explanation is required, as I am sure you already have by providing these links that I will be reading hopefully at some point this weekend. However if that statement is correct then I feel I have a pretty decent grasp of the actions / reactions and it was as you said me using the wrong word. Either way the challenge stimulated a lot of learning and for that I thank you!
 
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