Glucose Disposal Agents vs. Insulin Memtics

[RawStrength]

What is the difference?

I know the terms GDA and Nutrient Partitioner get used almost interchangeably. Does a insulin mimetic fall under the same thing?

Looking to compile a list of ingredients and place them under GDA or Insulin Mimetic as well as try to define what the goals of a GDA and a Insulin Mimetic are.

 

[ssbackwards]

goals are the same except the disposal part of a GDA refers to the alpha amylase activity or "carb blocking" effect
w
here insulin mimetic is more of a pure product that act as a PI3K activator *insulin pathway*

just turns out that ingredients can do both at the same time to a certain degree.

 

[itzDodge]

goals are the same except the disposal part of a GDA refers to the alpha amylase activity or "carb blocking" effect
w
here insulin mimetic is more of a pure product that act as a PI3K activator *insulin pathway*

just turns out that ingredients can do both at the same time to a certain degree.

Pretty much this, sometimes the terminology gets thrown between the two and can be confusing

 

[AaronJP1]

Good feedback on the terminology.

 

[criticalbench]

Gda better for cheat meals.. but partitioners are a better for real meals IMO.

 

[mr.cooper69]

This is semantics, but glucose disposal is referring to blood glucose disposal into tissues, so it is similar in function to an insulin mimetic and not a carb blocker.

 

[criticalbench]

This is semantics, but glucose disposal is referring to blood glucose disposal into tissues, so it is similar in function to an insulin mimetic and not a carb blocker.

Are there any, that function like the pharma med arcabose? With its ability to block sugar absorption?

 

[mr.cooper69]

Are there any, that function like the pharma med arcabose? With its ability to block sugar absorption?

Certainly. Gymnema sylvestre, white kidney bean, and berberine are tops in that category.

 

[CJ_Xfit89]

Recompadrol + ala at 600mg winning

 

[mr.cooper69]

Recompadrol + ala at 600mg winning

If you're using ALA, you're losing

 

[CJ_Xfit89]

If you're using ALA, you're losing

Na r ala is cost ineffective at effective doses for me I feel

 

[soontobbeast]

If you're using ALA, you're losing

explain

 

[MAxximal]

explain

maybe for ALA is a Unstabilized form of alpha Lipoic Acid

but anyway All ALA is not the same!

 

[mr.cooper69]

Na r ala is cost ineffective at effective doses for me I feel

Actually, you are spending much more money in your futile attempts to get an effective dose of ALA (which is not 600mg).

explain

maybe for ALA is a Unstabilized form of alpha Lipoic Acid

but anyway All ALA is not the same!

Past post of mine in another thread:

If only it were so simple. Na-R-ALA is actually a better deal when you account for numerous factors.

http://relentlessimprovement.com/included/docs/R_lipoic_PK.pdf <- Read it all when you get the chance. Helped tremendously in writing my research review.

Of note:

"Cmax and AUC values for NaRLA in the male subject were 25.86 and 3.3 times higher, respectively, than RLA."

"The current study and previous findings from this laboratory conclude that pure RLA is not suitable for use in nutraceutical or pharmaceutical products. Rather, it should be treated as raw material for further processing into stable, bioavailable dosage forms. PK data reveals pure RLA is significantly less bioavailable than RLA found as a 50-percent component of rac-LA; and RLA in a salt form is considerably more bioavailable than an equivalent dose of racLA (RLA + SLA). This indicates SLA may function as a competitive inhibitor in the absorption of RLA."​

If quality is accounted for, Na-R-ALA is the way to go from a cost:benefit perspective.

 

[JudoJosh]

Are there any, that function like the pharma med arcabose? With its ability to block sugar absorption?

Possibly this

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197969

Seems to mess with glucose uptake, transport and storage

 

[soontobbeast]

ahh.


NA RALA is still ALA. so thats why i was confused when you said you're losing if you take ALA.

you didn't originally specify that if you were using a certain type vs another type, you are losing.

 

[Resolve]

Is there any actual evidence of a GDA or insulin mimetic being tissue specific? I.e. if they're merely increasing systemic insulin sensitivity or glucose transport, then I don't much see the benefit unless you're diabetic or pre-diabetic.

This is why I've stopped using them recently - my insulin sensitivity is fine, and if a GDA/IM isn't going to preferentially enhance muscle uptake over other tissues, I don't see the point.

I could be wrong, and if I am, I'd genuinely be interested in learning what I am missing.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Is there any actual evidence of a GDA or insulin mimetic being tissue specific? I.e. if they're merely increasing systemic insulin sensitivity or glucose transport, then I don't much see the benefit unless you're diabetic or pre-diabetic.

This is why I've stopped using them recently - my insulin sensitivity is fine, and if a GDA/IM isn't going to preferentially enhance muscle uptake over other tissues, I don't see the point.

I could be wrong, and if I am, I'd genuinely be interested in learning what I am missing.

There is not. However, improved insulin sensitivity is plenty-relevant in healthy populations from a general health perspective. I do not advocate GDAs for body recomposition, but rather the positive effects they elicit on the body's systems.

That said, each ingredient has its own dynamics that could​ influence body comp longterm

 

[JudoJosh]

Is there any actual evidence of a GDA or insulin mimetic being tissue specific? I.e. if they're merely increasing systemic insulin sensitivity or glucose transport, then I don't much see the benefit unless you're diabetic or pre-diabetic.

This is why I've stopped using them recently - my insulin sensitivity is fine, and if a GDA/IM isn't going to preferentially enhance muscle uptake over other tissues, I don't see the point.

I could be wrong, and if I am, I'd genuinely be interested in learning what I am missing.

There has been some recent research on a new pathway that looks pretty promising (although it isnt supplement but with this new information I imagine companies will now start investigating this more)

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198131

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Judging a supplement by it's pharmacokinetics alone may be flawed. Even Gernova has this theory that you do not want increased bioavailability, AUC, half-life, etc (I realize they are referring to sustained release but it's similar). Also if ALA was so inferior....why would it do this:

Curr Pharm Des. 2010;16(7):840-6.[h=1]Alpha-lipoic acid supplementation: a tool for obesity therapy?[/h]Carbonelli MG, Di Renzo L, Bigioni M, Di Daniele N, De Lorenzo A, Fusco MA.
[h=3]Source[/h]Azienda Ospedaliera San Camillo-Forlanini, Rome, Italy.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]Lipid peroxidation has supposed as the major biochemical alteration underling oxidant-induced cell injury in stress including numerous diseases. One of the natural molecules know to prevent or retard oxidation is alpha-lipoic acid (LA) and, therefore, the lipoic acid/dihydrolipoic acid (LA/DHLA) redox couple has received considerable attention. Recent studies have highlighted the potential of free LA and DHLA as powerful metabolic antioxidants that are able to scavenge the reactive oxygen species, to recycle other antioxidants. Our aim was to investigate the beneficial effects of LA in the treatment of Italian pre-obese and obese subjects. We screened 1612 subjects for enrollment; of these, 1127 subjects (445 men and 682 women, 18-60 age) met enrolment criteria and were enrolled in the study. According to body mass index (BMI) the 53% was obese and the 43% was pre-obese. The subjects were treated for 4 month with 800 mg/day of LA. In pre-obese subject significant reduction (p<0.001) of weight (8%, both gender), BMI (2 points), blood pressure, and abdominal circumference (female 6 cm, male 7 cm) were observed. In obese subjects significant reductions (p<0.001) of weight (9%, both gender), BMI (female 3 point, male 4 point), blood pressure and abdominal circumference (female 9 cm, male 11 cm) were observed. Our study indicated that LA is an ideal antioxidant candidate for the therapy of obesity related diseases. Further clinical studies should be considered to highlight the role and efficacy of LA treatment.

PMID:20388095[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[JudoJosh]

Judging a supplement by it's pharmacokinetics alone may be flawed. Even Gernova has this theory that you do not want increased bioavailability, AUC, half-life, etc (I realize they are referring to sustained release but it's similar). Also if ALA was so inferior....why would it do this:

Reps bud

BTW, so is FRL gonna make a capped berberine for us since you have all that rhizoma laying around

 

[HereToStudy]

Can we please turn this into an ALA vs. Na-R-ALA thread? No sarcasm, I am serious. Op's question was answered.

I use ALA.

Coop is hell bent on N-R-ALA being superior.

Royd has argued before (here and from reading on M&M) that ALA is still more cost effective.


I respect both of your opinions on natural supps, so battle it out and come to a conclusion for us.

I'd spend time researching it this weekend, but i figure you both already have a handful of studies examined, and I am hoping to stick my head further into william's endocrinology this weekend.

 

[JudoJosh]

I just use bulk ALA.. Mainly because I am a cheap bastard

 

[HereToStudy]

I just use bulk ALA.. Mainly because I am a cheap bastard

I have been using it capped, swanson is damn cheap, and has it b1g1 often.

 

[Geoforce]

Can we please turn this into an ALA vs. Na-R-ALA thread? No sarcasm, I am serious. Op's question was answered.

I use ALA.

Coop is hell bent on N-R-ALA being superior.

Royd has argued before (here and from reading on M&M) that ALA is still more cost effective.


I respect both of your opinions on natural supps, so battle it out and come to a conclusion for us.

I'd spend time researching it this weekend, but i figure you both already have a handful of studies examined, and I am hoping to stick my head further into william's endocrinology this weekend.

2nded. Though I must admit the more I read about GDA's the more I question their use...but I'm still trying to learn.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Coop has probably spent a hell of a lot more time on this one than I. And as much as I love the subject of pharmacology (I really do find drug metabolism fascinating), using the PK argument for ALA doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you still see real world results from plain ole ALA like the study I just posted.

I'm like judojosh....I use the cheap stuff, because as far as I can tell with my n=1 results, it's doing what I want it too. Maybe I'm just really good at sticking to a diet, training, rest plan though.

 

[HereToStudy]

Coop has probably spent a hell of a lot more time on this one than I. And as much as I love the subject of pharmacology (I really do find drug metabolism fascinating), using the PK argument for ALA doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you still see real world results from plain ole ALA like the study I just posted.

I'm like judojosh....I use the cheap stuff, because as far as I can tell with my n=1 results, it's doing what I want it too. Maybe I'm just really good at sticking to a diet, training, rest plan though.

Well played sir.

I have the same thoughts on the ALA, but am willing to be convinced otherwise, if correct.

I am disappointed though, I was hoping for a abstract battle. :laughing:

 

[RecompMan]

Is there any actual evidence of a GDA or insulin mimetic being tissue specific? I.e. if they're merely increasing systemic insulin sensitivity or glucose transport, then I don't much see the benefit unless you're diabetic or pre-diabetic.

This is why I've stopped using them recently - my insulin sensitivity is fine, and if a GDA/IM isn't going to preferentially enhance muscle uptake over other tissues, I don't see the point.

I could be wrong, and if I am, I'd genuinely be interested in learning what I am missing.

well heres some basic information...

a lot of GDAs work specific pathways that reduce lipid droplet accumulation iin adipose tissue as well as decreasing the hyperplasia of new cells. So this is why on a bulk its great. much less fat accumulation.

on a cut these increase fat burning hormones.

its not about tissue specificity its about the rate of new fat cells being created vs not being created while on a bulk.

Certain things to look for in these products are

AMPk activation
PPARa agonist
PPARy Antagonist or partial agonist
CPT1 agonist
Glut4 translocation
alpha amylase inhibition
ATP citrate lyase inhibition

ect

 

[RecompMan]

Coop has probably spent a hell of a lot more time on this one than I. And as much as I love the subject of pharmacology (I really do find drug metabolism fascinating), using the PK argument for ALA doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you still see real world results from plain ole ALA like the study I just posted.

I'm like judojosh....I use the cheap stuff, because as far as I can tell with my n=1 results, it's doing what I want it too. Maybe I'm just really good at sticking to a diet, training, rest plan though.

ALA is cheap enough per kilo to dose 9g per day and last 3.3 months. and you need way less then that for the desired effect.

i like ALA, and has great benefits aside from why we use it.

 

[JudoJosh]

Relevant

R-alpha-lipoic acid action on cell redox status, the insulin receptor, and glucose uptake in 3T3-L1 adipocytes.

The insulin signaling pathway has been reported to mediate R-alpha-lipoic acid- (R-LA-)-stimulated glucose uptake into 3T3-L1 adipocytes and L6 myotubes. We investigated the role of the thiol antioxidant dihydrolipoic acid (DHLA) and intracellular glutathione (GSH) in R-LA-stimulated glucose transport and explored the hypothesis that R-LA could increase glucose uptake into 3T3-L1 adipocytes in an oxidant-mimetic manner. R-LA pretreatment of 3T3-L1 cells stimulated glucose transport at early time points (30 min - 6 h), whereas it inhibited glucose uptake at later time points. Analysis of the oxidized and reduced content of LA in cells and medium showed that >90% of lipoic acid present was in its oxidized form. Furthermore, all oxidized forms of LA (S-, R-, and racemic LA) stimulated glucose uptake, whereas the reduced form, dihydrolipoic acid, was ineffective. Intracellular GSH levels were not changed at the early time points (before 12 h), while longer preincubation (24 - 48 h) of cells with R-LA significantly increased intracellular GSH. Pretreatment of adipocytes with R-LA increased intracellular peroxide levels at early time points (30 min - 6 h), after which it was decreased (12 - 48 h). R-LA also increased tyrosine phosphorylation of immunoprecipitated insulin receptors from 3T3-L1 adipocytes. These results indicate that (i) 3T3-L1 adipocytes have a low capacity to reduce R-LA and the oxidized form of lipoic acid is responsible for stimulating glucose uptake, (ii) R-LA modulates glucose uptake by changing the intracellular redox status, and (iii) the insulin receptor is a potential cellular target for R-LA action.

Although this was in vitro, I still find it relevant for the discussion. So what they found was that while the R isomer was significantly better with regards to its ability to stimulate glucose uptake, but what they also found was the racemic mixture (both isomers) was better than either isomer alone in its ability to stimulate glucose uptake

I am disappointed though, I was hoping for a abstract battle. :laughing:

I think the biggest problem with this debate is that it has to be largely based on our speculation. As far as I know there doesnt exist any study that examines the difference between R- and racemic-LA and its effect on glucose transport in healthy humans. A majority of the research done is using either diabetic rat cells and/or on diabetic rats. There arent even ones that compare the racemic mix to the R-LA using diabetic humans, so we are very limited in what conclusions we are able to draw on how this will effect glucose transport in us.

 

[Outstanding]

well heres some basic information...

a lot of GDAs work specific pathways that reduce lipid droplet accumulation iin adipose tissue as well as decreasing the hyperplasia of new cells. So this is why on a bulk its great. much less fat accumulation.

on a cut these increase fat burning hormones.

its not about tissue specificity its about the rate of new fat cells being created vs not being created while on a bulk.

Certain things to look for in these products are

AMPk activation
PPARa agonist
PPARy Antagonist or partial agonist
CPT1 agonist
Glut4 translocation
alpha amylase inhibition
ATP citrate lyase inhibition

ect

SO happy to see EBF here OFFICIALLY! Awesome company and some very high-level research methods and efforts are ALWAYS behind their products. If it's a GDA thread, I'm here.

There are plenty o' wise guys on this forum that I enjoy learning from, but EBF is tops.

 

[CJ_Xfit89]

Thanks very much man

 

[RecompMan]

Thanks outstanding!!!

ill be working on some stuff tomorrow then ill post up some in here for everyone.

 

[Outstanding]

Thanks outstanding!!!

ill be working on some stuff tomorrow then ill post up some in here for everyone.

Looking forward to it!!

 

[CJ_Xfit89]

Looking forward to it!!

I think most of the community is looking forward to the return o the mighty partitioner

 

[Outstanding]

well heres some basic information...

a lot of GDAs work specific pathways that reduce lipid droplet accumulation iin adipose tissue as well as decreasing the hyperplasia of new cells. So this is why on a bulk its great. much less fat accumulation.

on a cut these increase fat burning hormones.

its not about tissue specificity its about the rate of new fat cells being created vs not being created while on a bulk.

Certain things to look for in these products are

AMPk activation
PPARa agonist
PPARy Antagonist or partial agonist
CPT1 agonist
Glut4 translocation
alpha amylase inhibition
ATP citrate lyase inhibition

ect

Just saw this post from a few days ago, amazing information... which I could rep you more.

 

[criticalbench]

Certainly. Gymnema sylvestre, white kidney bean, and berberine are tops in that category.

Good to no bro.. thanks! That phase 2 crap actually works. I was messing around with it.. blood sugar stays are 90.. I ate 30g of carbs and it peaked up. The next time it was 90 I ate the same 30 grams with it.. and my blood sugar only went to 101

 

[Outstanding]

I think most of the community is looking forward to the return o the mighty partitioner

Wanted to gather your, and anyone else's, thoughts on something.

1. I found a product in my recent searching that is new to market. Among other additives, it has two ingredients I know are of interest and highly recommended by you (r-ALA and Vanadyl Sulfate). What I'm curious about however, is the fact this product has a higher per-capsule dosage of r-ALA than ANY supplement I've ever seen, 500mg/capsule, and to top it off, it's under $15 a bottle. Now, call me old fashioned skeptical, but a 60 cap bottle of 500mg/capsule r-ALA supplement = 30 grams of pure r-ALA, not to mention the three or four other mimetics thrown in for good measure - which means the product in question has to be sold to the websites at a profit over manufacturing costs leading me to believe original per-unit production costs are around $8.00. How is this possible, and isn't it basically like telling the customer they are being lied to, or the formulation is tainted and nothing more than fairy dust with a good labeling dosage claim?

2. Something else that I wanted to get your take on, is Ursolic Acid. Do you feel it has a strong presence of efficacy and an earned place at the table of advanced bodybuilders based on it's animal studies and time in the marketplace? I see raw-powder bulk caps just became available to compete with Ergo Pharm's first-to-market version (HERE). Since you're the fat-loss research guru, I know you're the right person to ask.

THANKS!