Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
clear your pm's mixel
Ecdysterone yes or no?
- Thread starter oogaly_boogal
- Start date
Mixelflick
Active member
Done
Mixelflick
Active member
I'm late to this thread. everything I wanted to say and debate has been debated.
Aw c'mon, there's always more to debate when it comes to Ecdy...
mich29
Board Sponsor
Aw c'mon, there's always more to debate when it comes to Ecdy...
reminds me of a few years ago when the bans were getting closer,I remember a few companies gettin crazy over the edy
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
recent study on injectable 20E done here at u of illinois had weird and somewhat dissapointing results
Mixelflick
Active member
Thanks for the tip PA! I'm googling now, can you please provide a link here for the board members that may be interested?
Someone I know REAL well will be running a "full spectrum" Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract injectible within a month or two. I'm no fan of 20E/20-Hydroxyecdysterone standalone. This, based upon 15 years of running it orally, sublingual in a cyclodextrin base as well as transdermal with the carrier being your odorless DMSO (great stuff, btw). Only the trans at a gram/day of 20-H yielded some benefit.
I'm of the opinion that full spectrum RCE is the preferred source genus, given there is a grouping of ecdysteroids in the plant (referred to as the "levseins" complex in the former Soviet literature). There are also various tannins and resins contained therein, that are considered to be beneficial. This is but one of the reasons I elected to incorporate into Mass Pro Synthagen - my first Ecdy product. To be fair, Thermolife makes an excellent product in this category, E-bol. Like Synthagen, they use RCE as the primary source of Ecdy.
More info on the Ecdy pinning experiment, forthcoming...
Mixelflick
Active member
I'm assuming you're referring to this?
Invalid Link Removed
[h=3]Keywords:[/h]
- 20-hydroxyecdysone;
- infusion;
- mice;
- microarray;
- phytoecdysteroids;
- skeletal muscle
Phytoecdysteroids have been attributed with numerous pharmacological properties in animals, including increasing muscle mass, and 20-hydroxyecdysone (20E) is one of the most abundant phytoecdysteroids produced by plants. In this study, the physiological and gene expression effects of 20E were analyzed in C57BL/6 mice given a continuous infusion of saline or 20E (5 mg/kg/day) for 5 or 15 days using subcutaneously implanted Alzet® osmotic pumps. The masses of the total body, muscle groups and organs were determined. There was a significant increase ( p = 0.01) in the mass of triceps brachii in mice treated with 20E for 5 days (115 ± 8 mg) compared with mice treated with saline for 5 days (88 ± 3 mg), however, there were no differences in the other measured parameters. To determine potential mechanisms of 20E in skeletal muscle, Illumina's Mouse Whole Genome-6 v2.0 Expression BeadChips were used to evaluate changes in gene expression of the triceps brachii after 20E infusion. Ingenuity Pathways Analysis was used to identify genes with the most evidence for differential expression, of which, 16 genes involved in the skeletal and muscular system were identified. Overall, the data suggest that 20E does not have potent anabolic properties, however, a muscle-specific increase was observed and genes were identified to provide an explanation for the muscle accretion. Copyright © 2012 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
Quite interesting, the muscle specific effect observed. I only had time to read the abstract, off to the gym!!!
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
yeah that one. the question is, was the osmotic pump situated in the vicinity of the triceps brachii?
very odd that just one specific muscle group would grow otherwise
Mixelflick
Active member
Agree. If so, it would seem to parallel MadRussian's (I think that was his handle) findings/commentary, when pinning an Ecdy homebrew. This is where our little world has something to offer. An avant guard experiment? Perhaps, yet it offers insight into unanswered questions.
If this is in fact the case, it'll just result in more Ecdy questions vs. answers. Still, it illustrates the fact it CAN be anabolic in muscle tissue. We need more studies in humans, given the potential it holds for sarcopenia/muscle wasting in conditions where traditional anabolics are contra-indicated (i.e. prostate cancer). I fully understand they're pursuing SARM's for this, but Ecdy is far less likely to present the unknown/reported side effects SARM's have presented (i.e. transient visual disturbances, etc.).
Exciting stuff...
mr.cooper69
Legend
Agree. If so, it would seem to parallel MadRussian's (I think that was his handle) findings/commentary, when pinning an Ecdy homebrew. This is where our little world has something to offer. An avant guard experiment? Perhaps, yet it offers insight into unanswered questions.
If this is in fact the case, it'll just result in more Ecdy questions vs. answers. Still, it illustrates the fact it CAN be anabolic in muscle tissue. We need more studies in humans, given the potential it holds for sarcopenia/muscle wasting in conditions where traditional anabolics are contra-indicated (i.e. prostate cancer). I fully understand they're pursuing SARM's for this, but Ecdy is far less likely to present the unknown/reported side effects SARM's have presented (i.e. transient visual disturbances, etc.).
Exciting stuff...
Do you have a delivery method or modification to ecdy that will actually get it to skeletal muscle in humans?
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
u mean orally or injectable?
i dont see how one can target ecdy to skeletal muscle by either route. Its gonna go where it wants to go. unless you inject it right into a muscle, but still most of that will diffuse out of the muscle.
mr.cooper69
Legend
I mean orally since injectables aren't really a feasible option in this industry (or are they?), and I don't mean targeting skeletal muscle but rather even reaching the tissue.
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
i was under the impression that they absorbed in the gut and reached the blood stream in reasonable amounts
mr.cooper69
Legend
I recall reading that radiolabeled ecdy was most prevalent in excretory organs of animals closer in size to humans. Was your research referring to rats?
bigdavid
Well-known member
Silly bladder hogging all the ecdy
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
i got the full text on the 20E infusion.
the triceps got significantly bigger after 5 days but after 15 they shrunk back down. no other muscles or organs showed any changes
big dissapointment
the triceps got significantly bigger after 5 days but after 15 they shrunk back down. no other muscles or organs showed any changes
big dissapointment
Royd The Noyd
Board Sponsor
You were hoping for a bigger heart?
Mixelflick
Active member
Hold a sec - wasn't the Ecdy only administered for 5 days? I didn't read the full study, but thought I recalled that from the abstract...
EDIT: Found it - There was a significant increase ( p = 0.01) in the mass of triceps brachii in mice treated with 20E for 5 days
So my real question PA is this - Does the full study disclose where the osmotic pump was, perhaps in the tricep?
Mixelflick
Active member
No, but I'm not convinced you need one. I believe it builds into the cell membrane, much like fish oil. The studies I've seen (most), demonstrate it's well absorbed orally, despite what you'll hear elsewhere. Many also claim it's eliminated too rapidly, but from the studies i've seen it's largely dependent upon the size of the animal.
I don't feel this is a terribly limiting factor.
What I DO think has hurt the most, is positioning of Ecdy as a "steroid replacement". Adaptogens do NOT = Anabolics. Neither in structure nor function. Yet many of the suggestions insofar as optimal dosing mirror those of androgens (cycling, take with extra protein etc.). Big mistake, IMO. No environmental stressor to adapt to?
Adaptogens don't perform well.
Androgens fire the gun for you. Look at the study in the NEJM, I think it was on 600mg testosterone/week. Those guys put on more muscle without training, than hard training naturals 3days/week! Adaptogens are ammunition, but you still have to fire the gun.
Best way I can put it....
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
Maybe it displaces cholesterol in the cell membrane, since cholesterol and ecdysteroids are structurally similar
ecdysteroids are alot more water soluble though. so maybe i am wrong
Mixelflick
Active member
That's a great theory, I wish we knew if that's what was going on. There's also something going on with Vitamin D, insofar as some studies seem to indicate Ecdy can act as a substitute for it. It's just damned difficult to nail down. Ecdy is incredibly controversial, but for those of us it works for it works well. The reduction in DOMS for example, profound in my case (and many others). I think Scooter put it best here (paraphrasing), "When you come off of Ecdy, you just feel old...".
And that's exactly what it feels like. I feel beat up/achy from training, don't recover nearly as well and lose the sense of well being it imparts. It also helps me sleep better and seems to increase my VO2 max, for what it's worth. It's just a shame more studies aren't being done...
Patrick Arnold
Featured Author
vitamin D is a secosteroid. the B and C rings are unformed but the body has enzymes which use those double bonds to finish forming the steroid four ring structure. if you did that to vitamin D you would have a structure pretty similar to cholesterol and ecdysteroids
Mixelflick
Active member
Explains a lot. Thank you Pat...
bigdavid
Well-known member
Can you recommend a quality company selling ecdy? I have tried it in the past but I did not notice much. I forget what company I used but it seemed like everyone was using a different standardization method.
ax1
Legend
You cant go wrong with Mass Pro Synthagen.
Mixelflick
Active member
Muscle and Sports Science has been offering quality Ecdysterone extracts since 1993. Ax1 very kindly recommended my product, Mass Pro Synthagen. It's my formula, done under MASS's label. It's brand new, contains Ecdy (amongst MANY complimentary ingredients) and the feedback has exceeded even my expectations. The first two batches sold out fast, and we continue to see great things.
I wrote "The Blueprint" Ebook, which is an optimal use protocol for adaptogens of sorts. Ecdy research figured prominently in its development. It was published just prior to Ebol's release (2nd version of Ebol, if I'm not mistaken). Almost immediately, my guys running BP paired it with Ebol resulting in incredible success. Today, Ebol has perhaps the longest running, successful track record within BP. It too, would be an excellent choice. If it's pure Ecdy/Ecdy heavy formula you're looking for, Ebol would be my recommendation.
I think you'll find source material for Ecdy is a big issue. You can find "Ecdy" for $300/kilo out of China, but it's largely 20-hydroxyecdysterone from the inferior source genus cyanotis vaga. Thermolife goes to the Institute of Chemistry and Plant Sciences in Uzbekistan for their raws/Rhaponticum/Turkesterone.
Says alot, about the quality of Ecdy in Ebol.
bigdavid
Well-known member
Thank you for the detailed response. I had disregarded ecdy in the past but was not using any of the products that you listed. I am just going to assume that I was not getting quality ecdy and may give it a second shot in the future with one of the products you mentioned.
Mixelflick
Active member
I'm going to PM you a training tip, that you can use with a quality Ecdy. This type of training leverages the point I made, about there being a stress necessary, for adaptogens to work optimally.
Sincerely hope it helps you...
Mixelflick
Active member
Please do man. In the meantime, we have a dosing/feedback thread on The BP Forums you may want to peruse. It may help you figure out where, when and how best to dose it.
ax1
Legend
Have run it?
It's OOS now.
Not yet but plan to at some point (currently running other things to get out of the way).
I highly respect the formula, Its easy for me to suggest it.
Leuzea Rhaponticum carthamiodes at an effective dose is a great starting point. Its supporting cast of ingredients make it for something special and different from everything else on the market. I trust the company too, I know their raws are legitimate and the highest quality.
Mixelflick
Active member
Although the first two batches completely sold out, I'm told a very small run is expected in next Tuesday. Then first week of June, the mother load arrives for the national launch.
Here's a SMALL sample, of the feedback we've received in just the first 3 weeks. Keep in mind, nobody got comped product - and these are 100% unsolicited...
GARETH DENYER, CPT - 18 YEARS TRAINING, PREPS TX HS FOOTBALL PLAYERS FOR/DIV. 1
"Just started Synthagen this past Tuesday (May 1st). Using 7 pre and 7 post workout along with 7 at night time and stacking 3 capsules of Adaptogen-N at night time.
Within the past two nights I have slept incredibly well. My workouts on Tues and Thursday were the two best I have had in the past month, breaking two PR's and having plenty of stamina even at the end. I wanted to keep working out, which is completely unlike me due to my 15 hour work days and lack of sleep. It's difficult to explain but I have a better sense of well being. I don't feel so damn drained in other words.
I can't wait to see what Synthagen will allow me to accomplish this month! I have to thank Rob for creating this product.
Going on about two weeks of Synthagen and I have to say this supplement has vast array of benefits. The restorative properties and the increased sense of well being is amazing!! Not only can you train harder and increase intensity/density, you wake up the next day with no soreness and ready to train again....you have to literally force yourself to not train on the days you are supposed to take off.
On the days I do take off from training, I am taking 7 caps before and after a gorge meal, eating whatever at high quantities. I have used insulin many times before and it does compare the partitioning properties that Synthagen has....everything you take in makes you full and vascular, the exact opposite of insulin from what I experienced while taking 20 iu's a day. Slin made me bloated and tired, not to mention the water retention was ridiculous even while eating super clean and using Karbolyn.
I'm telling you now this supplement is revolutionary....I'm scared to run out of this stuff. Rob has found something special and we are lucky enough to be first to try it. For those who are wanting to train on the next level, this product will take you there...
PMARTINEZ78
"I noticed this morning that the stubborn fat in my lower abs looks like it has gone down a little. Maybe it's just me.
UPDATE: Well it looks like it wasn't just me after all. I decided to measure my waist on Saturday morning to find out if I've lost any bf and it turns out that I have lost 1/2 an inch on my waist where I'm holding the last bit of fat. This is pretty impressive to me because I'm not following any diet plan aside from fasting all day. I don't count calories like a lot of people do and pretty much eat whatever my wife cooks which most of the time isn't all that healthy.
Well I'm sold, Rob. This is what I've been looking for in a supplement. Not only does it make me hit the weights harder, but I eat whatever I want and still lean out. This is awesome.
I got 1 more week of my first bottle. Let's see what happens this week. BTW, I had no DOMS at all during week 2..."
THICKETMAN
"I've been on MPS for 2 weeks now. See my previous post on page 2 of this thread for details. I want to preface this by saying that I'm REALLLLYYYYY pushing the limits diet/exercise/supplement-wise for the purpose of rapid fat loss for summer.
I echo:
1) Better rest/refreshed feeling the next day when taken pre-bed
2) A nice sense of well-being at full dose (like Rob said, it's hard to put my finger on, but I feel good)
3) SIGNIFICANTLY reduced DOMS (none on upper body day, MUCH less on lower body day)"
It's still early, but here are the Synthagen hallmarks that are emerging...
1.) Sense of well being, that's difficult to put your finger on - but it's there
2.) Increased work capacity
3.) Increased VO2 max/stamina
4.) GREATLY accelerated recovery/reduced DOMS from exercise
GARETH DENYER, CPT - 18 YEARS TRAINING, PREPS TX HS FOOTBALL PLAYERS FOR/DIV. 1
"Just started Synthagen this past Tuesday (May 1st). Using 7 pre and 7 post workout along with 7 at night time and stacking 3 capsules of Adaptogen-N at night time.
Within the past two nights I have slept incredibly well. My workouts on Tues and Thursday were the two best I have had in the past month, breaking two PR's and having plenty of stamina even at the end. I wanted to keep working out, which is completely unlike me due to my 15 hour work days and lack of sleep. It's difficult to explain but I have a better sense of well being. I don't feel so damn drained in other words.
I can't wait to see what Synthagen will allow me to accomplish this month! I have to thank Rob for creating this product.
Going on about two weeks of Synthagen and I have to say this supplement has vast array of benefits. The restorative properties and the increased sense of well being is amazing!! Not only can you train harder and increase intensity/density, you wake up the next day with no soreness and ready to train again....you have to literally force yourself to not train on the days you are supposed to take off.
On the days I do take off from training, I am taking 7 caps before and after a gorge meal, eating whatever at high quantities. I have used insulin many times before and it does compare the partitioning properties that Synthagen has....everything you take in makes you full and vascular, the exact opposite of insulin from what I experienced while taking 20 iu's a day. Slin made me bloated and tired, not to mention the water retention was ridiculous even while eating super clean and using Karbolyn.
I'm telling you now this supplement is revolutionary....I'm scared to run out of this stuff. Rob has found something special and we are lucky enough to be first to try it. For those who are wanting to train on the next level, this product will take you there...
PMARTINEZ78
"I noticed this morning that the stubborn fat in my lower abs looks like it has gone down a little. Maybe it's just me.
UPDATE: Well it looks like it wasn't just me after all. I decided to measure my waist on Saturday morning to find out if I've lost any bf and it turns out that I have lost 1/2 an inch on my waist where I'm holding the last bit of fat. This is pretty impressive to me because I'm not following any diet plan aside from fasting all day. I don't count calories like a lot of people do and pretty much eat whatever my wife cooks which most of the time isn't all that healthy.
Well I'm sold, Rob. This is what I've been looking for in a supplement. Not only does it make me hit the weights harder, but I eat whatever I want and still lean out. This is awesome.
I got 1 more week of my first bottle. Let's see what happens this week. BTW, I had no DOMS at all during week 2..."
THICKETMAN
"I've been on MPS for 2 weeks now. See my previous post on page 2 of this thread for details. I want to preface this by saying that I'm REALLLLYYYYY pushing the limits diet/exercise/supplement-wise for the purpose of rapid fat loss for summer.
I echo:
1) Better rest/refreshed feeling the next day when taken pre-bed
2) A nice sense of well-being at full dose (like Rob said, it's hard to put my finger on, but I feel good)
3) SIGNIFICANTLY reduced DOMS (none on upper body day, MUCH less on lower body day)"
It's still early, but here are the Synthagen hallmarks that are emerging...
1.) Sense of well being, that's difficult to put your finger on - but it's there
2.) Increased work capacity
3.) Increased VO2 max/stamina
4.) GREATLY accelerated recovery/reduced DOMS from exercise
bigdavid
Well-known member
Would ecdy be a good product for a 5x5 type style program (or even 531 by Wendler)? Bill Starr's 5x5 for example, if you are familiar with it.
Mixelflick
Active member
Generally speaking, no. I'm going to caveat that though, by saying that for an adaptogen like Ecdy to work optimally - there needs to be a rather profound environmental stress, to adapt to. In the absence of that, adaptogens perform sub-optimally. You also needn't go over-board on the protein, like so many companies will recommend with Ecdy. Fact of the matter is, Ecdy's glucose disposal (and other) properties are as prominent - if not moreso than its effect on protein synthesis.
In the right formula, you can leverage ALL that Ecdy has to offer. For the record, it offers a LOT. Take a gander... See PDF in particular section 7:
Invalid Link Removed
"Effects on vertebrates, including mammals
- Effects of exogenous ecdysteroids
- Ecdysteroid metabolism in mammals
southsideguy
Member
Mixelflick said:
Tart Cherry Juice with Synthagen....BOOM!!
Mixelflick
Active member
Yeah, it's quite the experience. When I put Synthagen to the test though, I did so in a unique fashion - did everything I could, to subvert the product. Yep, brought protein DOWN to under 75g/day for weeks at a time. Then brought calories way below maintenance. Deliberately tried to over-train, etc.. I still gained in the gym/lost no muscle. That's when I knew it was ready.
Little wonder then, the slew of positive reviews that have been coming in. The latest was just one such case. He had been ravaged by life, I guess you could say. Here's what went down..
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[TD="colspan: 2"]"This product is amazing. In the last month I have been getting over a cold and stressed out beyond belief due to work. Not sleeping or eating well. My body is probably swimming in cortisol. Despite all of this I have been able to workout and make gains using Synthagen; 5 caps before workout, 5 after and 2 in the morning on off days. Visually my shoulders look different. Wider and you can see striations. I love this product..."[/TD]
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So enough about Synthagen...
Here's a relevant question - why don't more companies try doing this, prior to bringing a product to market? As I sit here thinking about it, the BEST products I ever used were ones that seemingly made things "failsafe". You know, they had that eerie similarity to androgens insofar as their ability to make up for certain dietary/training or lifestyle faux pas - and you still did well on them. I'm not talking about gross offenses here, like eating at McDonald's every day or partying until 2AM every night. Just the "life happens" stuff.
Dunno. It just seems to me that it's a good way to go about putting XYZ product to the test.
EasyEJL
Never enough
Yeah, it's quite the experience. When I put Synthagen to the test though, I did so in a unique fashion - did everything I could, to subvert the product. Yep, brought protein DOWN to under 75g/day for weeks at a time. Then brought calories way below maintenance. Deliberately tried to over-train, etc.. I still gained in the gym/lost no muscle. That's when I knew it was ready.
Little wonder then, the slew of positive reviews that have been coming in. The latest was just one such case. He had been ravaged by life, I guess you could say. Here's what went down..
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[TD="width: 150, bgcolor: #DEE3E7, align: left"]Mattlaw30
Joined: 30 Apr 2011
Posts: 10
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[TD="width: 100%"]Invalid Link RemovedPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject:
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[TD="colspan: 2"]"This product is amazing. In the last month I have been getting over a cold and stressed out beyond belief due to work. Not sleeping or eating well. My body is probably swimming in cortisol. Despite all of this I have been able to workout and make gains using Synthagen; 5 caps before workout, 5 after and 2 in the morning on off days. Visually my shoulders look different. Wider and you can see striations. I love this product..."
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So enough about Synthagen...
As I sit here thinking about it, the BEST products I ever used were ones that seemingly made things "failsafe". You know, they had that eerie similarity to androgens insofar as their ability to make up for certain dietary/training or lifestyle faux pas - and you still did well on them. I'm not talking about gross offenses here, like eating at McDonald's every day or partying until 2AM every night. Just the "life happens" stuff.
Dunno. It just seems to me that it's a good way to go about putting XYZ product to the test.
you do have me wanting to try synthagen now....
I think though there are a few reasons that doesn't happen often. For one of course, the supplement companies that are in the advertising in magazines you read, sponsoring serious athletes, etc are in business to make money. Effectiveness of a product often comes quite secondary to ability to sell and make a profit. The less cynical reason is that since they do compete against each other, they have to try and release things rapidly and make changes rapidly to keep from falling behind with their competitors.
Mixelflick
Active member
Not necessarily, no. My point being, when you combine known "negatives" that adversely affect your training (like over-training, too little sleep, sub-maintenance protein/calories to support growth, etc.), it will oftentimes illustrate the efficacy (or lack thereof) of a nutraceutical/supplement. Picture the above scenario with and without the product. When you're in this environment and NOT using the product, your training seems futile.
When you ARE using the product, you're still getting stronger, going longer and recovering FAST. That's when you know you have something with potential. On the other end of the spectrum, you take the guy who's doing everything right - he's likely going to make gains with or without the product. When the product is added, it's a lot tougher to decipher if gains are above and beyond those of training supplement free.
Granted, it's not a university study with DEXA scans, bloodwork etc - but as a practical, "real world" test, I rather favor it. Besides, you'd have to be loaded to fund a study like that. Even if results were stellar (and legit), you're going to get cold water thrown on it b/c you (the person selling the product), funded the study.
Catch - 22...
Mixelflick
Active member
You make great points. It just blows my mind that product efficacy comes second to hiring an ad agency, getting some juiced up pro to endorse it and gearing up for methyl 2-test, because methyl 1-test was so "last month".
In my mind, the true test is as follows...
1.) The product generates repeat buys, over a decade or more
2.) The product doesn't need much advertising - it sells itself through word of mouth
I keep seeing "new"! New doesn't mean better. Better is better....
T-Bone
Banned
You make great points. It just blows my mind that product efficacy comes second to hiring an ad agency, getting some juiced up pro to endorse it and gearing up for methyl 2-test, because methyl 1-test was so "last month".
In my mind, the true test is as follows...
1.) The product generates repeat buys, over a decade or more
2.) The product doesn't need much advertising - it sells itself through word of mouth
I keep seeing "new"! New doesn't mean better. Better is better....
I'm old so I don't have time to wait over a decade. What you say in this post makes sense though.