DHEA Article

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FWIW towards the conversation I am just finishing up a 5 week run of PP's Dermacrine. I have had no issues of gyno or gyno related symptoms.
 
DR.D said:
There are studies that show 1600mg being used for prolonged periods of time by men with no ill effects at all and excellent repartitioning too, would you prefer I put heavily weighted studies like that in here?! I would be guilty of cherry picking studies just like the op was, so no, I won't do that.
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smart move because that study has never been duplicated and is considered to be an anomaly
 
Primordial Perf said:
Pat,

If your suggesting that supplementing with DHEA will cause gyno, make you fat and block your muscle gains, that is flat out wrong. Out of the hundreds of users of Dermacrine, which probably has a dose comparable to a 700mg/oral dose of DHEA, we’ve maybe had 1-2 complaints about “sore nipples”… the rest of the feedback was from guys that reduced BF, increased their lifts, and found a new untapped energy source.

DHEA converts to many more hormones besides 5-Adiol. (BTW, 5-Adiol is great for the immune system) Consider the metabolites 4-Adiol, Triol, Adione, Stanedione, Stanediole, Test, 7-alpha DHEA, 7-oxo DHEA, ect. This is only part of a whole hormone milieu from DHEA which encourages muscle gain, fat loss and sexual function.

As I explained in my previous post, in-vitro studies with cancer-cell lines often have little to do with the real-world effects with supplements. Especially studies using irrelevant super-physiological doses in isolated cell-lines.

-Pp
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supplementing dhea can cause gyno. it won't make you fat and its effects on muscle probably are neutral.

dhea in large dosages will cause a strong estrogenic effect in the male - the research is clear on this.

many of these studies are not related to cancer and all taken together give a convincing argument that males should avoid high dosages or at least take them with a SERM

5-ad is by far the largest metabolite of dhea. the other ones you mention are minor in comparison

caveat emptor
 
DR.D said:
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Fair enough Jason, but I'm telling you, you really have to try it to know. All these studies can provide guidelines but that's about it.
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everyone should know that this is a famous study and has been discussed in great detail. that is because it was never duplicated.

this is what got duchaine and everyone so into dhea into the first place. Myself one of them. we had high hopes. we eventually had to concede that the results in this study were a one time oddity.

this is the truth, this is not me trying to win an argument or hurt competition
 
supplementing dhea can cause gyno. it won't make you fat and its effects on muscle probably are neutral.

dhea in large dosages will cause a strong estrogenic effect in the male - the research is clear on this.

many of these studies are not related to cancer and all taken together give a convincing argument that males should avoid high dosages or at least take them with a SERM

5-ad is by far the largest metabolite of dhea. the other ones you mention are minor in comparison

caveat emptor
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I really hope SDNG does not contain a healthly dose of DHEA, Because i've read that you don't need a serm!
I think gyno is a bad thing, unless AX doesn't care?!
 
Patrick Arnold said:
everyone should know that this is a famous study and has been discussed in great detail. that is because it was never duplicated.
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Actually here is another study showing a decrease in fat mass and an increase in strength in men – (hardly an “estrogenic effect")

The effect of six months treatment with a 100 mg daily dose of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) on circulating sex steroids, body composition and muscle strength in age-advanced men and women. Morales AJ, Haubrich RH, Hwang JY, Asakura H, Yen SS (1998). Clin Endocrinol ( Oxford ) 49: 421^32.

You seem to be on a mission to prove DHEA is an estrogenic feminizing hormone – which just isn’t true. Let me remind you of the results obtained in the 6-oxo study from the highest dose (600mg/day) which were something along the lines of “no significant ergonomic benefit, or change in the body mass index…”

Patrick Arnold said:
most transdermal steroid products average no more than 10-20% bioavailability. So whatever dose is in the transdermal, divide by 5-10
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FYI, 30% absorbed with a topical is very possible with current technology. Look at this study on a transdermal delivery system, which performed 3x better than androgel (30% absorbed after curve) We believe our topical technology is even a step beyond this, which gives us an edge on the competition with about 40% estimated delivery rate.

Pharmacokinetics of a new transdermal testosterone delivery
system, TDS-testosterone, in healthy subjects
Chik Z, Johnston A, Tucker A, Chew SL, Michaels L, Alam CA
Br J Clin Pharm 2006; 61: 275-279

Considering oral DHEA is absorbed at about 3% and our topical is absorbed by at least 30% the dose in Dermacrine could actually be considered about 10x more powerful than the equivalent dose taken orally. AND, that isn’t even taking into account the increased steroidogenic activity in the skin and increased conversion to DHEA’s metabolites.

Truce?

-Pp
 
FitnFirm said:
Dr. D shoudnt you be in the lab working on 69-AD our new pleasure pleaser supplement ? Oh whoooops thats privelaged info isnt it :eek:
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Well I try to make this a 'side effect' of practically every supp I develop (including ng) but sure, I can make one specifically for that if ya like. I will need testers, of course. ;)
 
DR.D said:
Well I try to make this a 'side effect' of practically every supp I develop (including ng) but sure, I can make one specifically for that if ya like. I will need testers, of course. ;)
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Man oh man make it to work on womenz my wife needs a double dose :D ....man she would kick my a$$ for that :D

:toofunny:
 
Primordial Perf said:
FYI, 30% absorbed with a topical is very possible with current technology. Look at this study on a transdermal delivery system, which performed 3x better than androgel (30% absorbed after curve) We believe our topical technology is even a step beyond this, which gives us an edge on the competition with about 40% estimated delivery rate.

Pharmacokinetics of a new transdermal testosterone delivery
system, TDS-testosterone, in healthy subjects
Chik Z, Johnston A, Tucker A, Chew SL, Michaels L, Alam CA
Br J Clin Pharm 2006; 61: 275-279

Considering oral DHEA is absorbed at about 3% and our topical is absorbed by at least 30% the dose in Dermacrine could actually be considered about 10x more powerful than the equivalent dose taken orally. AND, that isn’t even taking into account the increased steroidogenic activity in the skin and increased conversion to DHEA’s metabolites.

Truce?

-Pp
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AIMS: The Transdermal Delivery System (TDS) is a liquid formulation that can be applied to the skin via a metered pump spray to deliver drug to the systemic circulation.

the abstract you showed uses a metered pump. do you have a metered pump? if not, then what is so special about your technology that would allow you to exceed other available formulas without damaging the skin? remember, i did alot of research in this area. you just don't pass all that through the skin without severely disrupting its integrity
 
I think there is a valuable lesson that may be learned here. In fact this very lesson is being taught on another board with another compound as we speak. You should watch what you say about certain compounds because you might just end up utilizing them in your branded product in the future. ;)
 
I'm getting tired of these personal attacks from all sides. If you can't be adults and speak to each other without insulting each other's intelligence, looks, company affiliation or belief in a religion, then just shut the hell up. This isn't even anything I should have to tell anyone. Next time they will be handled with bans. These threads are beyond ridiculous.
 
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