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Coop's Corner #7: Amentoflavone Finally Explained

ma70 said:
How long does the "mood boosting" effect last? Just wondering, because I know it helps my mood out.
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Effects may last longer for certain individuals compared to others.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Alot of chatter on other forums about amento having piss poor absorption and the effects we are all seeing are placebo. Thoughts?
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talked with Dr Jacob Wilson and suggested him to test / run a study on Amento, (-)Epicatechin , forskolin , Anacyclus and some other stuff. He wrote:

"Hi pal,


Id love to. It just costs a lot to run a study so I would need to have funding for all the measures.But Im super open to testing!"

I really hope that will happen
 
Danes said:
talked with Dr Jacob Wilson and suggested him to test / run a study on Amento, (-)Epicatechin , forskolin , Anacyclus and some other stuff. He wrote:

"Hi pal,


Id love to. It just costs a lot to run a study so I would need to have funding for all the measures.But Im super open to testing!"

I really hope that will happen
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I'll shoot him some money

Wish I was srs. :(
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Agreed, these effects are undeniable with me.
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Same here. PR's constantly, I stopped using allot of things and amento solo shined most. i noticed quite a drop in strength coming off to, so i got back on a few weeks later and lifts came up again. perfect addition to fat loss/bulking phases whatever it may be, powerlifting. something i now consider a staple or at least worth investing in very frequently.
 
Danes said:
I can even buy amento so he can give to testers
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The cost of the experiment would be a lot more expensive than just the bulk ingredients needed. Equipment usage fees are pretty expensive, plus hiring RAs, etc. As a random example, it costs us $600 here per hour for a MEG session.
 
JudoJosh said:
Lots of chatter by arm chair scientist who don't fully understand concepts they are so adamantly pretending to be an expert in.

That said, neuron does a pretty decent job addressing the questioning on amento in the comments section of his amento blog post if you are interested - hightowerpharmacology.blogspot.com/2012/09/future-pharmacy-amentoflavone.html

Furthermore, worst case here, even if the MOA was wrong, that is the measuring stick by which you say a compound is worthless. Of course human placebo controlled studies would be great but as we know, these are VERY hard to come by in this industry. Anecdotal reports, while are limited in their ability to determine effectiveness, still do carry weight (just not as much as a clinical study would) and we have an overwhelming amount of reports coming in on amentoflavone to suggest there is a mechanism at play here, even if it isn't the increased calcium one.
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Probably the same people who thought ursolic acid and peak ATP had poor bioavailability, only to eat their words when new research has come out showing their effectiveness
 
Synapsin said:
The cost of the experiment would be a lot more expensive than just the bulk ingredients needed. Equipment usage fees are pretty expensive, plus hiring RAs, etc. As a random example, it costs us $600 here per hour for a MEG session.
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He has pretty much all the equipment you would need in his lab but costs still add up fast!
 
Synapsin said:
The cost of the experiment would be a lot more expensive than just the bulk ingredients needed. Equipment usage fees are pretty expensive, plus hiring RAs, etc. As a random example, it costs us $600 here per hour for a MEG session.
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Yea i totaly understand :)
Dont misunderstand me. Almost all of users respond damn good to amento so i believe it does do something. I hope some will run a study on it soon
 
Donation page for sure. Min $3.00 and with 200 donations that will be $600 if people really care I don't think 3bucks will break pockets
 
Personally love amento. I've used it for a while in beta test, and solo amentomax. The combo of forskolin and amento is nice. I've slimmed down bf while staying at maintenance calories. I note strength gains are consistent, and the mood boost is always enjoyable.

Trying norco/amento/f95/burn24 once the burn24 comes in from GRN. Trying to get down to at least 10%bf
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Alot of chatter on other forums about amento having piss poor absorption and the effects we are all seeing are placebo. Thoughts?
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I think a lot of people rag on a supplement because they don't have the rest of their details in order. The diet, training, rest etc aren't there so they read about a certain supp that everyone's getting results with and when they don't it's straight to the keyboard to rag on it.

Personally my goal for the last few months is work around injuries and drop fat very slowly but consistently. After some initial frustration and experimenting i have found IF (Intermittent Fasting) extremely helpful for the fat loss and i have been getting slow but steady results.....which is my goal.

Since i started Amentomax all my results seemed to have accelerated. I can train with more exercises, strength is up but atm i'm going more for extra strictness and reps but, oh man, do i really want to push heavier but i have to be smart with the injuries this time, pumps are crazy as is more vascularity and 100% notice extra fat loss especially around my waist. Placebo???? Absolutely not!!!

I'm not calling anyone a liar or anything just as long as they have the rest of the plan in order and not just relying on the supp, in this case Amento, to get them their results.
 
redman24 said:
with all this knowledge i don'z understand why for example ehanced worked for nobody i know, except very midly at 3 scoops. it was like taking nothing at all and falling asleep in the gym almost. and why doesn't pes make a preworkout with all of mr coopers knonwledge that increases performance like uncut claimed in its write-up? because i know somebody that did and it will be released in germany in january-
also 2 caps of erase pro did nothing for my estrogen ever while olympus transform reduces gyno lumps while on trestolone.
is it a monetary issues making products cheap in production? not trying to provoke but never saw anything great. only thing i like is amentomax, i add it to the pwo that will be releaed in germany, i have some samples of it. my ceiling dose is about 240mg.
i am not going to mention the strength gains the product caused because i will be hated like everywhere else i mentioned it, except for the people who tested it and all called it the best in the world, far superior to old craze or anything.
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Hi i doesnt understand your post completely.which strength gains did you get from which product or in other question from which ingredient and who is the company to release this pwo?would be the first german product after creapure thats worth buying then
 
Jag said:
I think a lot of people rag on a supplement because they don't have the rest of their details in order. The diet, training, rest etc aren't there so they read about a certain supp that everyone's getting results with and when they don't it's straight to the keyboard to rag on it.

Personally my goal for the last few months is work around injuries and drop fat very slowly but consistently. After some initial frustration and experimenting i have found IF (Intermittent Fasting) extremely helpful for the fat loss and i have been getting slow but steady results.....which is my goal.

Since i started Amentomax all my results seemed to have accelerated. I can train with more exercises, strength is up but atm i'm going more for extra strictness and reps but, oh man, do i really want to push heavier but i have to be smart with the injuries this time, pumps are crazy as is more vascularity and 100% notice extra fat loss especially around my waist. Placebo???? Absolutely not!!!

I'm not calling anyone a liar or anything just as long as they have the rest of the plan in order and not just relying on the supp, in this case Amento, to get them their results.
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Its not even about that. The discussion is purely on its MOA and bioavailability.
 
JudoJosh said:
Lots of chatter by arm chair scientist who don't fully understand concepts they are so adamantly pretending to be an expert in.

That said, neuron does a pretty decent job addressing the questioning on amento in the comments section of his amento blog post if you are interested - hightowerpharmacology.blogspot.com/2012/09/future-pharmacy-amentoflavone.html

Furthermore, worst case here, even if the MOA was wrong, that is nit the measuring stick you use to determine if a compound is worthless. Of course human placebo controlled studies would be great but as we know, these are VERY hard to come by in this industry. Anecdotal reports, while are limited in their ability to determine effectiveness, still do carry weight (just not as much as a clinical study would) and we have an overwhelming amount of reports in favor of amentoflavone to suggest there is a mechanism at play here, even if it isn't the increased calcium one.
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Neuron also said this on PA'S forum last month:

neuron said:
It would certainly appear to have bioavailability issues by structure alone, although systemic studies (in mice) have shown higher bioavailability then would be anticipated. It also has higher BBB permeability then similar compounds. It has some CYP inhibitory effects ( at physiological concentrations) and so it may inhibit it's own metabolism to some degree ( just speculating ).

People have reported strength increases, although it may be all placebo. Nevertheless, it appears to enhance intracellular calcium signaling, specifically SR calcium release, and so may indeed possess this property. If so, then similar analogies with higher potency in this regard would be interesting.
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So he's not 100% sold on it either at this point despite being the one who first brought it to everyone's attention.
 
Quadzilla99 said:
Neuron also said this on PA'S forum last month:



So he's not 100% sold on it either at this point despite being the one who first brought it to everyone's attention.
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An 100% certainty is something you are gonna be hard pressed to find from a scientifically minded individual. Amento is relatively a new compound and hasn't been researched nearly enough to draw any hard conclusions on ergogenic mechanisms. To give some perspective, some researchers are still 100% unsure of creatine mechanism (there has been some speculation of there is an hormonal one)

So him not being 100% certain is expected with something like amento.
 
JudoJosh said:
An 100% certainty is something you are gonna be hard pressed to find from a scientifically minded individual. Amento is relatively a new compound and hasn't been researched nearly enough to draw any hard conclusions on ergogenic mechanisms. To give some perspective, some researchers are still 100% unsure of creatine mechanism (there has been some speculation of there is an hormonal one)

So him not being 100% certain is expected with something like amento.
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PA did mention in that thread that there's several flavonoids which have similar actions and the main issue has essentially been bioavailability and at what dosages. So this is a question which we really can't get a better understanding of outside of more research being done on the compound. We are essentially dependent on mainly anecdotal feedback at this point.
 
kissdadookie said:
PA did mention in that thread that there's several flavonoids which have similar actions and the main issue has essentially been bioavailability and at what dosages. So this is a question which we really can't get a better understanding of outside of more research being done on the compound. We are essentially dependent on mainly anecdotal feedback at this point.
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Correct. We are limited to speculating based upon the limited research we have combined with the anecdotal reports coming in on it.
 
JudoJosh said:
An 100% certainty is something you are gonna be hard pressed to find from a scientifically minded individual. Amento is relatively a new compound and hasn't been researched nearly enough to draw any hard conclusions on ergogenic mechanisms. To give some perspective, some researchers are still 100% unsure of creatine mechanism (there has been some speculation of there is an hormonal one)

So him not being 100% certain is expected with something like amento.
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Pretty sure neuron would speak with more certainty on creatine lol. Lame example.

I like neuron, cooper, NO HYPE, etc. so I don't really have a dog in this but neuron seemed much, much more cautious when discussing than he has in the hundreds and hundreds of his other posts of his I've read on compounds he feels more confident in.
 
Quadzilla99 said:
Neuron also said this on PA'S forum last month:



So he's not 100% sold on it either at this point despite being the one who first brought it to everyone's attention.
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120mg Amento prior workout today. No strength increase. A week ago i tried 7 days with 120mg and no strength increase
 
redman24 said:
amentoflavone is my favourite ingredient for strength but i think i am a hyper responder and use much more than is recommended or commonplace, up to 240mg. also i don't get 1-2 reps increases but initially more like 9 reps in 2 workouts.
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Well then I will try 200-240 just to see what happens. 120mg does nothing for me TBH
 
NewAgeMayan said:
that could be due to the placebo effect of hearing that strength gains with AMF are possibly placebo
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Can't say it's placebo. When AppNut Uncut first came out awhile back I didn't even know it had Amentoflavone in it (or even what it was) and I've gotta say I noticed strength increases when using that stuff.
 
I will comment on this later, but several things are at play. First, there's data showing the amentoflavone solo has poor bioavailability and membrane permeability, but that it is significantly enhanced when ingested as part of a plant extract. This could be due to many things, like other substrates in the plant competing for PgP or efflux pumps. Secondly, there is data showing that amentoflavone's chief metabolite, the conjugated form, has bioactivity of its own. Finally, the compound has a high Vd and thus can progressively saturate tissues due to high tissue retention (analagous to curcumin -> low BV, high tissue distribution), so continuous use should yield improved results.

This is, of course, a simple view of things, and I can address all of the contested points in more detail when I have the time.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
I will comment on this later, but several things are at play. First, there's data showing the amentoflavone solo has poor bioavailability and membrane permeability, but that it is significantly enhanced when ingested as part of a plant extract. This could be due to many things, like other substrates in the plant competing for PgP or efflux pumps. Secondly, there is data showing that amentoflavone's chief metabolite, the conjugated form, has bioactivity of its own. Finally, the compound has a high Vd and thus can progressively saturate tissues due to high tissue retention (analagous to curcumin -> low BV, high tissue distribution), so continuous use should yield improved results.

This is, of course, a simple view of things, and I can address all of the contested points in more detail when I have the time.
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If amento is not toxic i will try even 300mg.
 
Quadzilla99 said:
Pretty sure neuron would speak with more certainty on creatine lol. Lame example.
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Are you sure about that?

For a while it had been believed, with some certainty, that creatine had no hormonal effects

When this was posted in another forum

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Neurons response was

WTF!!... I was just thinking about this on my way home about how to raise DHT and/or 5-alpha reductase levels to raise cognitive ability:I think I have found the answer.... Think I"ll be going to buy some creatine soon...

....

Creatine is associated with an improvement in cognitive ability in both the Raven's Progressive Matrices and the backwards digit-span. Oczam's razor suggests that maybe this is due to an increase in DHT?
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Which seems to me at least, he is open to the possibility of creatine having an hormonal mechanism

So if you were to ask him whether or not creatine has a hormonal effect or not, you think he would give you a yes or no with 100% certainty?

In the conclusion of that very paper it states
STATEMENT OF CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Although creatine is a widely used ergogenic aid, the mechanisms of action are incompletely understood, particularly in relation to dihydrotestosterone, and therefore the long-term clinical safety cannot be guaranteed.
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Point I am trying to get across is, 100% certainty is something that is hard to come by in science. We are always limited by the available body of evidence for a particular topic and are well aware of the possibility of our understanding of something to be wrong as new research emerges.

Or in other words, him being 100% not sure is expected
 
Danes u must be a non responder which sucks! I took 2 Amentomax before gym this morning. And strength was way up! Slight pump and mental focus was laser! I literally couldn't belive this off one dose. placebo or not Theres something to this stuff!! I've never took anything in my life that worked on the first dose besides a preworkout..
 
blacklac said:
Its not even about that. The discussion is purely on its MOA and bioavailability.
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I'm not sciency at all, but really trying to get it, so forgive me if some of this discussion is over my head but doesn't bioavailability have anything to do with environment?

The environment in which i provide for it is working great.
 
Cjg said:
Danes u must be a non responder which sucks! I took 2 Amentomax before gym this morning. And strength was way up! Slight pump and mental focus was laser! I literally couldn't belive this off one dose. placebo or not Theres something to this stuff!! I've never took anything in my life that worked on the first dose besides a preworkout..
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I will try to run 240 and max 300mg of amento to see how it works for me
 
ma70 said:
Can't say it's placebo. When AppNut Uncut first came out awhile back I didn't even know it had Amentoflavone in it (or even what it was) and I've gotta say I noticed strength increases when using that stuff.
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Same here... but that chit was also a stim bomb (at least for me, I always just took the full 3 caps).
 
Good luck man.. I was mad when follidrone came out and I ran it and didn't getting anything from it.. I was in denial I was a non responder and had to sit back and watch everyone else enjoy!
 
Cjg said:
Good luck man.. I was mad when follidrone came out and I ran it and didn't getting anything from it.. I was in denial I was a non responder and had to sit back and watch everyone else enjoy!
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Follidrone did nothing for me. Even 10 caps at day. I dont want to be rude or anything but i can bet its much placebo with Epicatechin. Can it give better endurance? Yes i believe its the main function like being a good antioxidant but is it a good anabolic ? I really dont think so. Not in humans. But hey, maybe it is at 2g or more lol..

I have tried pure (-)epicatechin 1g and nothing
 
Lol. I took 2 caps of Uncut and I was cracked out. That stuff was an incredible value for me, at 1 cap.

I'd like to revisit 2 caps after ive built my stim tolerance back up.
 
ma70 said:
Wow. I only took 1 cap and noticed awesome effects. 3 caps sounds like a massive amount of stim!
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I go pretty low stim these days. 1 Spike tablet. Sometimes with 2 caps of Razors Edge. Usually just the 1 Spike tablet though. LoL.
 
blacklac said:
Lol. I took 2 caps of Uncut and I was cracked out. That stuff was an incredible value for me, at 1 cap.

I'd like to revisit 2 caps after ive built my stim tolerance back up.
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Yup. 2 caps and I felt like I was gonna have a heart attack on my deadlifting day. Never again....
 
Id be surprised if placebo wasnt more prevalent in the supp industry than many of us would believe. To be clear, I dont mean this to imply there is widespread malicious scamming by the supp companies; rather, I think it is an innevitable consequence of human cognition.

One of the main mechanisms by which placebo is even possible is also what makes resistance training, and particularly progression, possible in the first place (whether the trainee takes supps or not); we are all familiar with the saying that training is as much mental as physical.

Due to these cognitive mechanisms being largely non-/sub-conscious in nature, no-one can rule out (by self-diagnosis) their playing some role every time they train, whether they are using some ergogenic that is 'studied and proven' or not.
 
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