Christian Friends ( <----seriously ) Your opinion, and something I cant define.

[madds87]

Already veering... Lol..... Sigh* screw it im starting another thread so they can interupt and argue all they want. Lol you will see it.

 

[GTB]

I am sorry to say, but the NT disagrees with you. I believe it is Revelations 20. Dont remember off hand, but it mentions being judged by their work

The White Throne judgement which you are referring makes the point that our works themselves will be judged. We are all judged by the same standard. Jesus does not condemn anyone, nor does He send anyone to hell. The choice is ours whether we want to acknowledge our fallen condition, and then repent (turn from it). When Jesus died on the cross He bore the sins and paid for the sins of the world( that means every living soul that committed sin). Salvation is won for man at the cross. Judgement is reserved for those who did not want the gift of salvation. BBB was pointing out that much has been done in the name of Christ and for Christ, but it is not being done by Christ. There is much to be disappointed by in the history of the church, but Jesus is faultless.A lamb without blemish. The significance of works in the life of the believer is that they provide evidence of a relationship not merit unto salvation. Believers will be rewarded for their works that were completed with the right motivation, but salvation was provided by Christ alone

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

I have a few friends who are gay and all I do is pray that God will change their hearts.

Since the thread is apparently ruined anyway, I'll go ahead and address this.

This type of thinking is not acceptable. To pray that god would change their hearts makes it sound as though homosexuality were a choice. It is not. You were born being attracted to girls, and you cannot help it. It is the same for gays, only with the attraction toward men. To say that it is a matter of heart is wholly inaccurate.

 

[AE14]

The White Throne judgement which you are referring makes the point that our works themselves will be judged. We are all judged by the same standard. Jesus does not condemn anyone, nor does he send anyone to hell. The choice is ours whether we want to acknowledge our fallen condition, and then repent (turn from it). When Jesus died on the cross He bore the sins or paid for the sins of the worldthat means every living soul that committed sin. Salvation is won for man at the cross. Judgement is reserved for those who did not want the gift of salvation. BBB was pointing out that much has been done in the name of Christ and for Christ, but it is not being done by Christ. There is much to be disappointed by in the history of the church, but Jesus is faultless.A lamb without blemish. The significance of works in the life of the believer is that they provide evidence of a relationship not merit unto salvation. Believers will be rewarded for their works that were completed with the right motivation, but salvation was provided by Christ alone

interesting INTERPRETATION, but it is just that, an interpretation. If one is to take the work at its word, then the reference is to being judged by ones work as well.

I never understood picking and choosing what and how to interpret.

 

[GTB]

I am all for continuing on another thread.

 

[GTB]

interesting INTERPRETATION, but it is just that, an interpretation. If one is to take the work at its word, then the reference is to being judged by ones work as well.

I never understood picking and choosing what and how to interpret.

I can break down the hermenuetics for you if like. Interpration is a synonym for opinion when it comes to when it comes to accountability.

 

[madds87]

I just made another thread so proceed to it. Let us get back to what we were talking about. Ae im very familiar with how you feel. Lol thank you. But let us continue sir. thank you.

 

[AE14]

I can break down the hermenuetics for you if like. Interpration is a synonym for opinion when it comes to when it comes to accountability.

This is exactly hat...an interpretation. HOwever, it does not take the word at face value, which to me demeans the words. Just my 2 cents

 

[AE14]

I just made another thread so proceed to it. Let us get back to what we were talking about. Ae im very familiar with how you feel. Lol thank you. But let us continue sir. thank you.

Deal

 

[madds87]

Ae if you would please copy the thread that I just posted so yall could continue on there please. Im on my phone and cant cut and paste.

 

[madds87]

Deal

Lol ty sir!

 

[GTB]

This is exactly hat...an interpretation. HOwever, it does not take the word at face value, which to me demeans the words. Just my 2 cents

?????? Love you brother:01:

 

[BBB]

Scripture must be taken as a whole. And yes there have been many injustices done in the name of Christ but that doesn’t mean that He condones them. At the Great White Thorne Judgment, all those who have not accepted Christ will be judged for their works and also condemned for them "There is none righteous no not one, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Those who have accepted His death as recompense for their sins will not, they have been forgiven. It is not my program it Gods.

 

[GTB]

Scripture must be taken as a whole. And yes there have been many injustices done in the name of Christ but that doesn’t mean that He condones them. At the Great White Thorne Judgment, all those who have not accepted Christ will be judged for their works and also condemned for them "There is none righteous no not one, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Those who have accepted His death as recompense for their sins will not, they have been forgiven. It is not my program it Gods.

.

I agree with everything you said brotherexcept the condemnation. Romans 8: stats there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Scripture is the best commentary.

 

[CaseyW]

Then may I ask what you believe in? I cant understand that if you consider yourself a christian why wouldnt you believe in the bible.... Kinda seems missunderstood...

I dont consider myself christian, i like the bible though (most of it) as lessons and morals. Im happy in the idea that i can pray to a god i do not understand. I think a god simple enough for me to comprehend is not powerful enough to create this world we live in. As ive gotten older ive moved to being spiritual, rather than religious. Just me.

 

[AE14]

Scripture must be taken as a whole. And yes there have been many injustices done in the name of Christ but that doesn’t mean that He condones them. At the Great White Thorne Judgment, all those who have not accepted Christ will be judged for their works and also condemned for them "There is none righteous no not one, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Those who have accepted His death as recompense for their sins will not, they have been forgiven. It is not my program it Gods.

This certainly supports what I am saying. It is not just faith alone, for non believers. Otherwise hell would be full of good folks.

 

[GTB]

I dont consider myself christian, i like the bible though (most of it) as lessons and morals. Im happy in the idea that i can pray to a god i do not understand. I think a god simple enough for me to comprehend is not powerful enough to create this world we live in. As ive gotten older ive moved to being spiritual, rather than religious. Just me.

Well put. The process is called sanctification, we are growing and maturing in our understanding everyday if we are seeking His will.

 

[GTB]

This certainly supports what I am saying. It is not just faith alone, for non believers. Otherwise hell would be full of good folks.

Hell is full of good folks, that have made bad decisions. If being good was enough, how good do you have to be ? The standard is perefction, which for us is unattainable, that is why we needed a Saviour, he paid the debt that we could not. Thank you for clarifying the non believers statement

 

[AE14]

Hell is full of good folks, that have made bad decisions. If being good was enough, how good do you have to be ? The standard is perefction, which for us is unattainable, that is why we needed a Saviour, he paid the debt that we could not. Thank you for clarifying the non believers statement

Savior is an interesting term, considering how many there were during that time. All performing miracles with followers, etc..

 

[madds87]

Savior is an interesting term, considering how many there were during that time. All performing miracles with followers, etc..

Then jesus would be a lunatic.... If your comparing him to other miracle workers, since he claims himself as the Son Of God. Also believing it so much that he died for it....

 

[R1balla]

chevelle...

some breaking benjamin

Some older avenged sevenfold

Atreyu

Skillet

And a ton of choice songs picked here and there from artists that have SOME good songs but cant listen to the entire albums since some songs arent appropriate.

thanks man. put some of there songs on my ipod. im just so used to jammin to eminem. he gets me so goin hard. i may have to keep some of him on for when im maxing out lol

 

[GTB]

thanks man. put some of there songs on my ipod. im just so used to jammin to eminem. he gets me so goin hard. i may have to keep some of him on for when im maxing out lol

I like the signature, get you some Thousand Foot Kructh, and Red

 

[BBB]

Whether you believe in God or not is a personal decision. We are not puppets. God gave all of us a free will. However, history tells us that Jesus existed, performed many miracles (proof that he was from God), was condemned, crucified and his grave was found empty on the third day. All of these are historical facts not just Biblical facts. I have a copy of the report sent by Pontus Pilot to Creaser describing the death and crucifixion of Jesus. What you decide to do with these facts is up to you. But this decision has eternal implications.

 

[GTB]

Whether you believe in God or not is a personal decision. We are not puppets. God gave all of us a free will. However, history tells us that Jesus existed, performed many miracles (proof that he was from God), was condemned, crucified and his grave was found empty on the third day. All of these are historical facts not just Biblical facts. I have a copy of the report sent by Pontus Pilot to Creaser describing the death and crucifixion of Jesus. What you decide to do with these facts is up to you. But this decision has eternal implications.

Amen.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Whether you believe in God or not is a personal decision. We are not puppets. God gave all of us a free will. However, history tells us that Jesus existed, performed many miracles (proof that he was from God), was condemned, crucified and his grave was found empty on the third day. All of these are historical facts not just Biblical facts. I have a copy of the report sent by Pontus Pilot to Creaser describing the death and crucifixion of Jesus. What you decide to do with these facts is up to you. But this decision has eternal implications.

I have no qualms with his crucifixion. The rest, well, there's not much evidence for them outside of the gospels, and most of those weren't even written until decades after the crucifixion.

So, just to be clear, there's evidence for the crucifixion and existence of man named Jesus, but no evidence for any of the rest.

 

[AE14]

Whether you believe in God or not is a personal decision. We are not puppets. God gave all of us a free will. However, history tells us that Jesus existed, performed many miracles (proof that he was from God), was condemned, crucified and his grave was found empty on the third day. All of these are historical facts not just Biblical facts. I have a copy of the report sent by Pontus Pilot to Creaser describing the death and crucifixion of Jesus. What you decide to do with these facts is up to you. But this decision has eternal implications.

Most historians do believe that the Pilate commentary is a forgery. Just saying

 

[Sourdough]

thanks for another attempt at a good thread...

some folkks are too "driven" (read: RUDE) to let the side banter die down despite the multiple requests AND the OP creating their own separate thread to hash it out in...

unsubbed

 

[madds87]

Its a shame.... But oh well... And its funny cause the other thread isnt even booming.... Lol go figure....ae def is determined.... I hope one day that you sir can join the fellowship. And will be praying for you, and others. For I do have respect for you cause you can hold a discussion... But also cant keep it shut either lol.... I understand your passionate about it. as we are. But ill be praying for the answer to help youunderstand. your very knowledgable on your end.

 

[GTB]

I have no qualms with his crucifixion. The rest, well, there's not much evidence for them outside of the gospels, and most of those weren't even written until decades after the crucifixion.

So, just to be clear, there's evidence for the crucifixion and existence of man named Jesus, but no evidence for any of the rest.

I am imterested to hear of evidence of the crucifixation of Christ outside of the Scriptures

 

[madds87]

I am imterested to hear of evidence of the crucifixation of Christ outside of the Scriptures

Theres plenty of it. I think I will have to gather up my sorces when I get home...

 

[AE14]

Its a shame.... But oh well... And its funny cause the other thread isnt even booming.... Lol go figure....ae def is determined.... I hope one day that you sir can join the fellowship. And will be praying for you, and others. For I do have respect for you cause you can hold a discussion... But also cant keep it shut either lol.... I understand your passionate about it. as we are. But ill be praying for the answer to help youunderstand. your very knowledgable on your end.

Much respect to you as well

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

I am imterested to hear of evidence of the crucifixation of Christ outside of the Scriptures

Me too. I just didn't want to argue with the guy on that point. Oops.

 

[madds87]

Then jesus would be a lunatic.... If your comparing him to other miracle workers, since he claims himself as the Son Of God. Also believing it so much that he died for it....

Comment? Besides proof of whether or not it happened, if you believe it didnt happen, then this would make this story either of a lunatic (which I do not beieve), or fairy tail. Then if the bible is supporting a "lunatic", then this would make a chain reaction of lies...
Its funny that this "bible". If followed to 100% there would be no problems and would be a perfect world.... Now how could humans that are so imperfect make a book like this? Especially over such a time period, and over so many different people.... And that every single person had the same belief system.... So on and so on. now I understand a perfect world is.hard to grasp our minds around but just try to ponder about this for a bit.

 

[madds87]

Comment? Besides proof of whether or not it happened, if you believe it didnt happen, then this would make this story either of a lunatic (which I do not beieve), or fairy tail. Then if the bible is supporting a "lunatic", then this would make a chain reaction of lies...
Its funny that this "bible". If followed to 100% there would be no problems and would be a perfect world.... Now how could humans that are so imperfect make a book like this? Especially over such a time period, and over so many different people.... And that every single person had the same belief system.... So on and so on. now I understand a perfect world is.hard to grasp our minds around but just try to ponder about this for a bit.

All im saying "proof is in the pudding"

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Comment? Besides proof of whether or not it happened, if you believe it didnt happen, then this would make this story either of a lunatic (which I do not beieve), or fairy tail. Then if the bible is supporting a "lunatic", then this would make a chain reaction of lies...
Its funny that this "bible". If followed to 100% there would be no problems and would be a perfect world.... Now how could humans that are so imperfect make a book like this? Especially over such a time period, and over so many different people.... And that every single person had the same belief system.... So on and so on. now I understand a perfect world is.hard to grasp our minds around but just try to ponder about this for a bit.

So, according to you, if the bible were followed to a tee in its entirety, there would be no problems and a perfect world?

Have you actually read the thing?

 

[carpee]

So, according to you, if the bible were followed to a tee in its entirety, there would be no problems and a perfect world?

Have you actually read the thing?

he's more [probably] referring to Jesus' teaching, and love..

yes, there is crazy stuff in the old testament, and even throughout history Christians have killed, lied, stolen, cheated, etc.

I'm assuming (sorry) that you are gonna refer to the old testament, and the law, or Leviticus haha... but the point is jesus for believers came and fulfilled the law...and stands in place for them.

for those who choose not to believe, that is their right.

fact is, i don't care if you call them Billy's 10 life lessons, or suggest a theory that they were created by someone else...if the entire world followed the 10 commandments, it would be a much better place.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

he's more [probably] referring to Jesus' teaching, and love..

yes, there is crazy stuff in the old testament, and even throughout history Christians have killed, lied, stolen, cheated, etc.

I'm assuming (sorry) that you are gonna refer to the old testament, and the law, or Leviticus haha... but the point is jesus for believers came and fulfilled the law...and stands in place for them.

for those who choose not to believe, that is their right.

fact is, i don't care if you call them Billy's 10 life lessons, or suggest a theory that they were created by someone else...if the entire world followed the 10 commandments, it would be a much better place.

There's plenty of questionable material in the new testament as well, so that whole "Jesus canceled out the ****ty old testament law" argument just doesn't hold any water.

There are certain aspects of the ten commandments that are undeniably useful, I agree.

 

[madds87]

There's plenty of questionable material in the new testament as well, so that whole "Jesus canceled out the ****ty old testament law" argument just doesn't hold any water.

There are certain aspects of the ten commandments that are undeniably useful, I agree.

yes of coarse jesus teaching. well since the ten commands are useful?then who came up with it? Moses? Neg....
But yes if the world followed that and all of jesuss techings it would be amuch much better place. And especially with such unconditional love we would love eachother. Even if I said the old testament to, your taking and missing the most important part of that entire message.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

yes of coarse jesus teaching. well since the ten commands are useful?then who came up with it? Moses? Neg....
But yes if the world followed that and all of jesuss techings it would be amuch much better place. And especially with such unconditional love we would love eachother. Even if I said the old testament to, your taking and missing the most important part of that entire message.

Since I addressed specifically what you said, yet somehow missed the point, why don't you go ahead and enlighten me on the important part of that message?

As for "who came up with it," in regard to the ten commandments. The commandments I would actually deem useful are based on general human morality. Across cultures, those things are denounced. It is no miracle that it's like this. Morality is not much more than the herd instinct of humans, and those commandments reflect this. So, who came up with it? Humans did. End of story.

 

[BBB]

If you look closely the first five commandment deal with your relationship to God. The last deal with your relationship to others. Jesus said that all of the law could be summed up in two simple commandments: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself." Very interesting laws if made by humans.

 

[AE14]

Since I addressed specifically what you said, yet somehow missed the point, why don't you go ahead and enlighten me on the important part of that message?

As for "who came up with it," in regard to the ten commandments. The commandments I would actually deem useful are based on general human morality. Across cultures, those things are denounced. It is no miracle that it's like this. Morality is not much more than the herd instinct of humans, and those commandments reflect this. So, who came up with it? Humans did. End of story.

the Egyptians in the book of the dead created what we call the Oath of Clearance. In recorded history, their Oath of Clearance was the origin of the 10 Commandments as we see them. The Sumerians also had something oddly similar. If you are interested, there is a book titled "History begins at Sumer" which illustrates many biblical stories thousands of years prior to the creation of the bible. All found in Sumerian myth. Very good read

 

[BBB]

Maybe prior to the canonization, maybe.

 

[AE14]

Maybe prior to the canonization, maybe.

not sure who that was directed to?

 

[madds87]

the Egyptians in the book of the dead created what we call the Oath of Clearance. In recorded history, their Oath of Clearance was the origin of the 10 Commandments as we see them. The Sumerians also had something oddly similar. If you are interested, there is a book titled "History begins at Sumer" which illustrates many biblical stories thousands of years prior to the creation of the bible. All found in Sumerian myth. Very good read

That sounds like a very interesting read actually...

 

[GTB]

the Egyptians in the book of the dead created what we call the Oath of Clearance. In recorded history, their Oath of Clearance was the origin of the 10 Commandments as we see them. The Sumerians also had something oddly similar. If you are interested, there is a book titled "History begins at Sumer" which illustrates many biblical stories thousands of years prior to the creation of the bible. All found in Sumerian myth. Very good read

Travel was permitted and encouraged such times, I am sure that such stories were spread throughout the world. The notion that Babylon played such a central role as not only a place of knowledge and learning, would draw people from far away lands. It was also customary to indoctrinate a defeated , and allow them assimilate into your culture. The assyrians would spilt the defeated people into multiple locations in order to dilute the ethnicity or nationalism.Abraham was Chaldean, however is not listed as an author of any biblical books. The bible stats, Abraham was called out from the Chaldeans, because man had created their own laws, and had become very powerful(history indicates that
by the technological advances made by the Sumerians and Egyptians). Genesis 10 state Nimrod united to the people to build the tower of
Babel. I am not dismissing the validity or credibility of mythological stories.Judaism identifies good and evil. God and satan. The two are diametrically opposed. God being light and satan being darkness. The absence of God leaves man to his own devices which are towards sin. It did not even take one generation for men to failure. IMO, similarity of the stories are like counterfeit dollar bills, they may look the same, smell the same, and someone may unwittingly accept it for a real dollar, but in the end they are as worthless as the paper printed, regardless of how elaborate. We were all designed to worship, some have settled for less than the best. Satan is a worthless god, peddling worthless stories.The sad part is for many they are deceived , blinded by the lies, because the truth requires accountabilty for ones actions.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

IMO, similarity of the stories are like counterfeit dollar bills, they may look the same, smell the same, and someone may unwittingly accept it for a real dollar, but in the end they are as worthless as the paper printed, regardless of how elaborate. We were all designed to worship, some have settled for less than the best. Satan is a worthless god, peddling worthless stories.The sad part is for many they are deceived , blinded by the lies, because the truth requires accountabilty for ones actions.

You don't find the fact that those similar stories came about long before the Christian versions of them did a bit problematic for the Christian notion that the commandments and other holy writings are divinely inspired?

As for the rest of what you said: what lies are you referring to? The truth is, people are already accountable for their actions, without any sort of divine intervention being necessary.

 

[GTB]

You don't find the fact that those similar stories came about long before the Christian versions of them did a bit problematic for the Christian notion that the commandments and other holy writings are divinely inspired?

As for the rest of what you said: what lies are you referring to? The truth is, people are already accountable for their actions, without any sort of divine intervention being necessary.

Do any of the stories that are similar stories come with a recorded prophesy(proclaimation or forth telling of an impending event) of such and an event? Please provide the source. Do you believe in Satan? Do you believe in Hell? People disregard the concept of hell, because they refuse to acknowledge they belong there. Religion is the biggest culprit for this belief. If mankind could be good enough on it's our merits. The world would not have needed a Saviour. The motivation for every good work for every Christian should be out of gratitude for not getting what we all deserve. The non believer does not possess this mentality because they do not want to be accountable to the truth. Man is sinful and Jesus is the only answer to salvation. I am not against man, believe, I am not against you, I am for you. I don't even know you and I pray for you. Right now it is all about opinions , but in the end someone is going to be right and someone is going to be wrong.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Do any of the stories that are similar stories come with a recorded prophesy(proclaimation or forth telling of an impending event) of such and an event? Please provide the source. Do you believe in Satan? Do you believe in Hell? People disregard the concept of hell, because they refuse to acknowledge they belong there. Religion is the biggest culprit for this belief. If mankind could be good enough on it's our merits. The world would not have needed a Saviour. The motivation for every good work for every Christian should be out of gratitude for not getting what we all deserve. The non believer does not possess this mentality because they do not want to be accountable to the truth. Man is sinful and Jesus is the only answer to salvation. I am not against man, believe, I am not against you, I am for you. I don't even know you and I pray for you. Right now it is all about opinions , but in the end someone is going to be right and someone is going to be wrong.

Not sure, but does it really surprise you that those who shared the same religious beliefs wrote prophecies and their subsequent fulfillment? It's a bit too convenient for me. There's far too much bias for me to trust in any of it.

I have believed in Satan, Hell, and all that good stuff. I was quite the Christian for a number of years. The enlightenment I experienced that encouraged me to let go of those beliefs came slowly, but surely... anyway, that's beside the point. Not Satan, not Hell, not any semblance of punishment is necessary for a man to be moved to do good works. I derive my morality, not from an ancient belief system, but from an intellectual understanding of emotion, and an awareness of the way my actions affect the emotions of others.

You say "the motivation for every good work for every Christian should be out of gratitude for not getting what we all deserve." I say that's slave-thinking. It's not doing good for goodness' sake, but doing good out of fear or a feeling of debt... neither of which are necessary for good works.

 

[GTB]

You say "the motivation for every good work for every Christian should be out of gratitude for not getting what we all deserve." I say that's slave-thinking. It's not doing good for goodness' sake, but doing good out of fear or a feeling of debt... neither of which are necessary for good works.
On the contrary, it is simply expressing gratitude for paying for my sins. It is not a requirement for salvation, it is evidence. I am not required I am reciporcating what was demonstrated for me. "While , we were yet sinners he died for us Romans 5:8" I once heard as kid"if you are going to be a pagan, you better be the best pagan you can be because that's all there is for you" I took that to heart. I was a great pagan, so close to hell that you could smell the smoke. Today, like yourself I am going in my understanding of what life is all about , why I am here, and how I can impact the world around me. I would be a failure , if I failed to share the unfailing love of my sacrifial Saviour to a world that desperatly needs him. I tried it my way, it was empty and hollow, now I actually like people even athiest. Romans 2:4 "It's the goodness of God that leads to repentence'

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

On the contrary, it is simply expressing gratitude for paying for my sins. It is not a requirement for salvation, it is evidence. I am not required I am reciporcating what was demonstrated for me. "While , we were yet sinners he died for us Romans 5:8" I once heard as kid"if you are going to be a pagan, you better be the best pagan you can be because that's all there is for you" I took that to heart. I was a great pagan, so close to hell that you could smell the smoke. Today, like yourself I am going in my understanding of what life is all about , why I am here, and how I can impact the world around me. I would be a failure , if I failed to share the unfailing love of my sacrifial Saviour to a world that desperatly needs him. I tried it my way, it was empty and hollow, now I actually like people even athiest. Romans 2:4 "It's the goodness of God that leads to repentence'

That gratitude you profess is only necessary based on the supernatural beliefs that you hold. There needn't be any hint of supernatural gratitude for a man to perform good works. Just want to make that clear.

It's unfortunate that living life your way was empty and hollow, but it wasn't because you were without a savior, it was because you made terrible decisions in general. It's possible, and extremely healthy, to assign purpose to your own life and live in a way that brings joy to yourself and others, without faith in a deity that will subject you to torture if your life doesn't meet its requisites.

I will never agree that your god's love is unfailing. The supposed actions of your god towards those who do not believe are that of a tyrant, and not of an all-loving creator.