BCAA's a must or hype?

[Chuck Diesel]

Xtend is more than a BCAA. If you would like to fund a study, then by all means, go ahead. When you're going to cite particulars of the study, at least attempt to get them right. I'm not interested into some E fight over this. You've obviously become very passionate about this as you've recently released your bcaa. Not sure what the mod rules are here and not interested in a ban for going off. Interesting that I'm the one being jumped on and I'm the only one here who has spent a dime in actual research on the topic lol. Chuck, it's too early for drama. Go do some yoga and relax.

Nah im not trying to start no efight. I was wondering why you talk about Xtend so much. I dnt jump on pll coments just bc I don't like Im not them like the average AM hater. Im cool.

 

[1Fast400]

I've made a few hundred posts in 14 years of being here. Less than 50 in the past year. I only came in to answer specific questions. I'll likely disappear for another 6 months so as I'm spending considerable time out of the country this year.

 

[Admin]

Lets keep it on topic without the questioning of company owners motives, who they are, what they did, etc...

 

[Chuck Diesel]

studies...look them up....all about BCAAs. Interpret you how you guys wish

(1) J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2016 Jan 5;13:1. doi: 10.1186/s12970-015-0112-9.
(2) Cancer Sci. 2010 Feb;101(2):460-7. doi: 10.1111/j.1349-7006.2009.01402.x.
(3) Front Biosci (Landmark Ed). 2015 Jan 1;20:796-813.
(4) Am J Clin Nutr. 2015 Dec 30. pii: ajcn112359.
(5) J Exerc Nutrition Biochem. 2015 Sep;19(3):183-9. doi: 10.5717/jenb.2015.15062704
(6) J Exerc Nutrition Biochem. 2013 Dec;17(4):169-80. doi: 10.5717/jenb.2013.17.4.169
(7) Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2012 May;44(5):881-7. doi: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e31823ede8e.
(8) J Nutr. 2004 Jun;134(6 Suppl):1583S-1587S.
(9) J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2012 Jul 12;9:20. doi: 10.1186/1550-2783-9-20.
(10) J Nutr. 2006 Feb;136(2):544S-547S.
(11) J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2004 Apr;88(3-4):172-7.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

#5 is the one where the rats hind legs were suspended, and (suspension induced atrophy), and BCAAs helped them lose less muscle.
(5) J Exerc Nutrition Biochem. 2015 Sep;19(3):183-9. doi: 10.5717/jenb.2015.15062704


Ok so with it, or without it, what I said still holds about BCAAs decreasing muscle loss during a suspension test in rats.

 

[JudoJosh]

My 2 post went bye byes

Guess I got to work on word choice/phrasing better cuz I didn't think it came across that bad

 

[Admin]

My 2 post went bye byes

Guess I got to work on word choice/phrasing better cuz I didn't think it came across that bad

Passive aggressive insults don't help the matter.

 

[schizm]

Passive aggressive insults don't help the matter.

Ya, Judo! Active aggressive or GTHO!!

Lol, just kidding...pls don't ban me :ntome:

 

[JudoJosh]

studies...look them up....all about BCAAs. Interpret you how you guys wish

(1) J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2016 Jan 5;13:1. doi: 10.1186/s12970-015-0112-9.
(2) Cancer Sci. 2010 Feb;101(2):460-7. doi: 10.1111/j.1349-7006.2009.01402.x.
(3) Front Biosci (Landmark Ed). 2015 Jan 1;20:796-813.
(4) Am J Clin Nutr. 2015 Dec 30. pii: ajcn112359.
(5) J Exerc Nutrition Biochem. 2015 Sep;19(3):183-9. doi: 10.5717/jenb.2015.15062704
(6) J Exerc Nutrition Biochem. 2013 Dec;17(4):169-80. doi: 10.5717/jenb.2013.17.4.169
(7) Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2012 May;44(5):881-7. doi: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e31823ede8e.
(8) J Nutr. 2004 Jun;134(6 Suppl):1583S-1587S.
(9) J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2012 Jul 12;9:20. doi: 10.1186/1550-2783-9-20.
(10) J Nutr. 2006 Feb;136(2):544S-547S.
(11) J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2004 Apr;88(3-4):172-7.

lol..

Did you just copy/paste a reference list from a product write up?

What are they supposed to show? How do they show it? In what context?

Link bombing random papers without an context or explanation to them is pretty useless

 

[1Fast400]

Passive aggressive insults don't help the matter.

If they are against me, I don't mind them. I'll happily defend myself against anything I've said or done. I understand if board rules don't allow it, just saying it doesn't bother me. Is that allowed in a different section?

 

[Admin]

Ya, Judo! Active aggressive or GTHO!!

Lol, just kidding...pls don't ban me :ntome:

mind numbing.

 

[JudoJosh]

Ya, Judo! Active aggressive or GTHO!!

Lol, just kidding...pls don't ban me :ntome:

HEY!

http://youtu.be/eRciT30vrjo (NSFW)

Better ?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

lol..

Did you just copy/paste a reference list from a product write up?

What are they supposed to show? How do they show it? In what context?

Link bombing random papers without an context or explanation to them is pretty useless

Ur still doing the sht admin told you not to do. Those are the references. Look them up yourself.

Wait what is your whole argument with BCAAs...because this thread is about if they have a purpose and specifically dif from protein. Your not posting anything relevant.

 

[1Fast400]

lol..

Did you just copy/paste a reference list from a product write up?

What are they supposed to show? How do they show it? In what context?

Link bombing random papers without an context or explanation to them is pretty useless

I was going going to write something similar. You can't expect people to prove that something doesn't work. If your stance is that something does work, it's on you to provide data to support it. If you manufacture a product, to which you put claims to, by law you're required to have evidence of those claims. It's a structure function law. Citing rat studies doesn't excite a lot of bodybuilders. To clarify, providing data means extrapolating data from studies that are real world relevant. A very large company in the industry is knee deep in a nasty lawsuit over structure function claims and their pre workout right now.

 

[Admin]

If they are against me, I don't mind them. I'll happily defend myself against anything I've said or done. I understand if board rules don't allow it, just saying it doesn't bother me. Is that allowed in a different section?

Yes its allowed here:

Company Owner Complaint Forum

 

[Chuck Diesel]

If they are against me, I don't mind them. I'll happily defend myself against anything I've said or done. I understand if board rules don't allow it, just saying it doesn't bother me. Is that allowed in a different section?

Nah, that was to Judojosh because he said something to the tune of any BCAA study posted by me is not credible, compared to a study posted by you bc in his opinion, you read studies better.

Anyway, just some BS, I don't even know his stand on BCAAs at this point, because if he does believe they are not a waste, then he should be citing some references showing why, or posting his personal feedback, etc.

 

[JudoJosh]

Ur still doing the sht admin told you not to do. Those are the references. Look them up yourself.

Wait what is your whole argument with BCAAs...because this thread is about if they have a purpose and specifically dif from protein. Your not posting anything relevant.

No, I'm asking what is the point you are trying to make and how do those papers support that point.

Just posting links without any context isn't really helpful or meaningful

 

[1Fast400]

Yes its allowed here:

Company Owner Complaint Forum

Hahahhahahahahhahahah. Well I'm banned currently for embarrassing a certain 3 letter company on there.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I was going going to write something similar. You can't expect people to prove that something doesn't work. If your stance is that something does work, it's on you to provide data to support it. If you manufacture a product, to which you put claims to, by law you're required to have evidence of those claims. It's a structure function law. Citing rat studies doesn't excite a lot of bodybuilders. To clarify, providing data means extrapolating data from studies that are real world relevant. A very large company in the industry is knee deep in a nasty lawsuit over structure function claims and their pre workout right now.

What does this have anything to do with BCAAs, or a company referencing a result of a study? Companies should know the difference or the ramifications from slapping "test booster" on a preworkout that has like 1/100th the D-asparitic used in the study they are referencing.

You are saying Scivation never made a claim and referenced a BCAA study outside of the one study they did specifically on Xtend?

Judojosh, look these up then and let us know if they BCAAs are a waste or not?

 

[carmaf]

Yes its allowed here:

Company Owner Complaint Forum

Hahahahahahahahaahahahahhaha yessss

 

[JudoJosh]

I was going going to write something similar. You can't expect people to prove that something doesn't work. If your stance is that something does work, it's on you to provide data to support it. If you manufacture a product, to which you put claims to, by law you're required to have evidence of those claims. It's a structure function law. Citing rat studies doesn't excite a lot of bodybuilders. To clarify, providing data means extrapolating data from studies that are real world relevant. A very large company in the industry is knee deep in a nasty lawsuit over structure function claims and their pre workout right now.

Well except for the professional rat builder demo. (Bad joke I know)

I actually don't have an issue with papers using animal models. The issue with them is often the reader/explainer and not the actual paper. People fail to understand the nuances in research and view papers through this absolutist lens instead of a contextual one.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

No, I'm asking what is the point you are trying to make and how do those papers support that point.

Just posting links without any context isn't really helpful or meaningful

The context is in my previous post in this thread. What is your point? Do you think BCAAs work? if so or not post some citations, or comments, or I would think nothing at all. I'm confused as to why you have so much to say, but nothing to say about BCAAs.

 

[JudoJosh]

Nah, that was to Judojosh because he said something to the tune of any BCAA study posted by me is not credible, compared to a study posted by you bc in his opinion, you read studies better.

Anyway, just some BS, I don't even know his stand on BCAAs at this point, because if he does believe they are not a waste, then he should be citing some references showing why, or posting his personal feedback, etc.

Hey hey now, I also threw some passive aggressiveness towards McCandles too. I'm not greedy with it

 

[Chuck Diesel]

The issue with them is often the reader/explainer and not the actual paper. .

You do know you can explain any paper/research to yourself don't you? Its not an audio book. You also can post your interpretation of the findings, especially if they contradict what someone else said. That way all your sht talking would make more sense. Other than that, your just posting "don't make a comment online without citing a reference..."

 

[1Fast400]

Nah, that was to Judojosh because he said something to the tune of any BCAA study posted by me is not credible, compared to a study posted by you bc in his opinion, you read studies better.

Anyway, just some BS, I don't even know his stand on BCAAs at this point, because if he does believe they are not a waste, then he should be citing some references showing why, or posting his personal feedback, etc.

This is your claims deck:

Diesel Test Hardcore
- Pharmaceutical grade fermented BCAAs
- Great natural taste
- 8g BCAAs - 30 Servings
- 240g BCAAs per container
- Dissolves instantly
- More endurance and ATP
- Low in sodium
- Preserve lean muscle mass
- Increases protein synthesis
- Promotes fat burning
- Greatly reduces muscle fatigue
- Reduces post workout soreness

When you say: More endurance and ATP, Preserve lean muscle mass, increase protein synthesis, promotes fat burning, greatly reduces muscle fatigue and reduces post workout soreness.

ALL of those claims require you to have specific data using the exact dose (or greater) that you are providing. You need human data, not rat data in order to make those claims. When a customer is asking for you to prove why your product works, you should already have all of this information, otherwise how did you arrive at your claims? You can't just say things because you think that's what happens. By law you must have proof of your claim. I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm trying to show you how you could be exposed. You are mad at someone for questioning you on your claims, then tell them they have to go do all the leg work to prove themselves wrong. Really?

 

[Admin]

You do know you can explain any paper/research to yourself don't you? Its not an audio book. You also can post your interpretation of the findings, especially if they contradict what someone else said. That way all your sht talking would make more sense. Other than that, your just posting "don't make a comment online without citing a reference..."

Seriously what did I just say?

Stop the constant bickering back and forth. Its really old.

 

[1Fast400]

What does this have anything to do with BCAAs, or a company referencing a result of a study? Companies should know the difference or the ramifications from slapping "test booster" on a preworkout that has like 1/100th the D-asparitic used in the study they are referencing.

You are saying Scivation never made a claim and referenced a BCAA study outside of the one study they did specifically on Xtend?

Judojosh, look these up then and let us know if they BCAAs are a waste or not?

Take this piece of advice, stop. You realllyyyyyyyyyyyyyy don't want to go down the rabbit hole of drawing me into a real argument. You have yet to grasp the concept of BCAA and Xtend are different things. I have real data, from a study we funded, twice. There is data out there showing value of bcaa's, but why would I hand all of that to you on a platter? Would you like me to do your manufacturing as well lol. Just stop Chuck, trust me. I never enter a discussion unless I already know the outcome. You're not going to change every posters mind. If Josh doesn't think bcaa's work, who cares. Move on to someone else. You can't win the internet, but I promise you can lose a lot of business trying to fight.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

This is your claims deck:

Diesel Test Hardcore
- Pharmaceutical grade fermented BCAAs
- Great natural taste
- 8g BCAAs - 30 Servings
- 240g BCAAs per container
- Dissolves instantly
- More endurance and ATP
- Low in sodium
- Preserve lean muscle mass
- Increases protein synthesis
- Promotes fat burning
- Greatly reduces muscle fatigue
- Reduces post workout soreness

When you say: More endurance and ATP, Preserve lean muscle mass, increase protein synthesis, promotes fat burning, greatly reduces muscle fatigue and reduces post workout soreness.

ALL of those claims require you to have specific data using the exact dose (or greater) that you are providing. You need human data, not rat data in order to make those claims. When a customer is asking for you to prove why your product works, you should already have all of this information, otherwise how did you arrive at your claims? You can't just say things because you think that's what happens. By law you must have proof of your claim. I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm trying to show you how you could be exposed. You are mad at someone for questioning you on your claims, then tell them they have to go do all the leg work to prove themselves wrong. Really?

^^^ This is understood, Ive been in supplements for 14 years with no FDA infractions. I'm not mad at anyone for questioning any claim. He didn't question a claim, he questioned a comment I made about BCAAs in general. The studies has to do with BCAAs or a biochemical method of action. Biochemically I can substantiate any claim I make.

I said, as it pertains to this thread, here are some studies that say BCAAs have a purpose. The issue here is do BCAAs work for anything outside of protein. There are tons of studies, or user feedback (like Admin saying they decrease his DMOS). So this isn't an issue of me going "BCAAs will increase strength by 30%." Biochemically, BCAAs does xyz.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Take this piece of advice, stop. You realllyyyyyyyyyyyyyy don't want to go down the rabbit hole of drawing me into a real argument. You have yet to grasp the concept of BCAA and Xtend are different things. I have real data, from a study we funded, twice. There is data out there showing value of bcaa's, but why would I hand all of that to you on a platter? Would you like me to do your manufacturing as well lol. Just stop Chuck, trust me. I never enter a discussion unless I already know the outcome. You're not going to change every posters mind. If Josh doesn't think bcaa's work, who cares. Move on to someone else. You can't win the internet, but I promise you can lose a lot of business trying to fight.

I posted these links to studies Xtend reference. I don't know if they are specifically on BCAAs, or Xtend, its an image to the study name. I'm telling Judojohn to let me know what the findings were.

Not sure why you think that comment has anything to do with you or your product. But true, if he doesn't think they work, who cares. good comment.

 

[1Fast400]

Dear baby supplement Jesus, please provide this man clarity. I'm out on this thread.

 

[JudoJosh]

So this appears to have shifted drastically from being skeptical of claims, questioning usefulness, etc.. so with that ima bow out before I get caught up in the drama too much.

For the record though, I never stated BCAAs are useless or anything really. I questioned the claims being made and asked for evidence. One does not have to take a "side" here. It was a discussion about the usefulness or lack there of. Just because I said evidence doesn't support claim X doesn't mean I align myself with the opposing argument, it just means the evidence doesn't support claim X.

As for BCAAs, I have a defended their use and explained scenerios where they could be useful on this site before. Not that it matters, but I do support BCAAs use in certain instances.

If anyone wants to discuss the research behind BCAAs use and is curious about my input, make another thread and tag me in it.

Later gangstas

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Does anyone have any personal instances where they added BCAAs to their intraworkout, leucine to protein, post workout BCAAs, etc, and they did not notice a change in anything performance related? We haven't had anyone chime in on the "I used it didn't work side of things."

 

[carmaf]

BCAAs never did anything for me at all. I eat a boatload of meat though so.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

BCAAs never did anything for me at all. I eat a boatload of meat though so.

How did you add them to your diet? I also would like to know because I for the first time will be using BCAAs consistently
(like over 4 weeks straight), probably going to add 4g/4x a day (16g) to my diet. My main concern is recovery. I feel i'm maxed
out on muscle size naturally for my height, and I do not seem to lose muscle fast.

Also how much protein do you think you get a day? On average.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Does anyone have any personal instances where they added BCAAs to their intraworkout, leucine to protein, post workout BCAAs, etc, and they did not notice a change in anything performance related? We haven't had anyone chime in on the "I used it didn't work side of things."

I switched from Crystal Light to Intra-MD for two jugs - nothing but normal progression increases, same "soreness" (though I don't get too terribly bad DOMS anyway).

 

[carmaf]

How did you add them to your diet? I also would like to know because I for the first time will be using BCAAs consistently
(like over 4 weeks straight), probably going to add 4g/4x a day (16g) to my diet. My main concern is recovery. I feel i'm maxed
out on muscle size naturally for my height, and I do not seem to lose muscle fast.

Also how much protein do you think you get a day? On average.

Back when I was using BCAAs, I was getting maybe 400g of protein a day or more. I used them fasted, but I actually found my bodyfat dropped significantly when I STOPPED using BCAAs, as my IF diet was not truly effective with BCAAs breaking my fast every day. Once I started drinking straight water during my fasts, my progress improved dramatically.

I also never found any benefit for sparing muscle or recovery or anything. May give them another shot in the future though, as my body comp is a lot different now, so I may experiment with them once again.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Back when I was using BCAAs, I was getting maybe 400g of protein a day or more. I used them fasted, but I actually found my bodyfat dropped significantly when I STOPPED using BCAAs, as my IF diet was not truly effective with BCAAs breaking my fast every day. Once I started drinking straight water during my fasts, my progress improved dramatically.

I saw a convo once of people saying something similar. That they think they gained BF on them and it was breaking their fast. So your prob not the only one.

 

[Jiigzz]

Aw im all caught up and everyone left

 

[ma70]

There was a study on suppversity that showed BCAAs during exercise/dieting helped preserve LBM, but slowed fat loss as well. Just throwing that out there. I can link it if its allowed.

 

[Rocket3015]

I train fasted in the AM and I swear I have a better workout when I take BCAA with Muscle Fiber before bed. I am not a lab rat....Just a Gym Rat !!

 

[The_Old_Guy]

There was a study on suppversity that showed BCAAs during exercise/dieting helped preserve LBM, but slowed fat loss as well. Just throwing that out there. I can link it if its allowed.

You can - SV is G2G. Is it the recent one by Dudgeon?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

There was a study on suppversity that showed BCAAs during exercise/dieting helped preserve LBM, but slowed fat loss as well. Just throwing that out there. I can link it if its allowed.

(1) J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2016 Jan 5;13:1. doi: 10.1186/s12970-015-0112-9.
(

This study shows that. I have seen a few based on BCAAs at calorie restricted times stating what you said.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I want to do the 4 scoops in a gallon and sip all day, seems the cool thing to do....but BCAAs are making me hella hungry.

 

[Gutterpump]

I want to do the 4 scoops in a gallon and sip all day, seems the cool thing to do....but BCAAs are making me hella hungry.

The one thing I don't do, even though I flavor my water with Bcaa's, is to use gallon jugs and sip.

I tend to use 1.5L bottles and slam them down multiple times daily. This also helps where it comes to creating a protein refractory period.

 

[smith_69]

think the real question is, do you the user get enough in your diet? its the same with protein. Do you need to take addt protein in order to meet your needs.
During cancer treatment, there are certain amino's that are not given to patients as this would not help; glycine is one.

A company can provide a detailed analysis of the product they are using for you the consumer. there are hundreds of companies selling everything, this we all know and those who boast about everything! you can go with a company that has been to the moon and back and walked across America on their hands and knees while only taking product X- lol
or you can go with a company that sells the product without everything attached to it and you be the judge

 

[1Fast400]

There was a study on suppversity that showed BCAAs during exercise/dieting helped preserve LBM, but slowed fat loss as well. Just throwing that out there. I can link it if its allowed.

A write up on the results of that study vs the click bait that some online science sites like to post:

The best physiologically possible body composition outcome for an individual performing resistance training while intentionally trying to lose body fat through restricting calories is to maintain their pre-diet muscle mass while losing fat mass. Very few athletes who often cut weight (e.g. MMA, boxers, wrestlers, dancers, etc.) are able to lose body fat without simultaneously losing muscle mass. These athletes often maximize muscle mass and muscular performance (e.g. power, strength) gains in the off-season as they know that they will lose a significant amount of muscle mass and muscular performance as they cut their body weight to achieve their target performance weight. A very low calorie supplement that could help these athletes maintain their hard earned muscle mass and muscular performance gains while still cutting body fat would be the ideal product to use for any person that is trying to gain or maintain their muscle mass and muscular performance.

The results from an independent university-based study showed that supplementation of Scivation’s Xtend in experienced weight trained athletes performing resistance training while on a caloric-restricted diet allowed the subjects to maintain their pre-diet muscle mass and preserve skeletal muscle performance while simultaneously losing fat mass.
The subjects using Scivation’s Xtend maintained their muscle mass while the subjects that used the placebo lost nearly 2 pounds of muscle mass. The subjects supplementing with Scivation’s Xtend lost 1.1 pounds of body fat while the subjects on the placebo didn’t have a significant change in body fat.

Performance wise, subjects using Xtend had a 3X greater increase in their lower body muscular performance (i.e. back squat) over the placebo subjects. In addition, the Xtend group significantly increased bench press strength by over 15 pounds while the placebo group lost over 8 pounds of muscular strength.

During caloric restriction the body’s typical response is to utilize available energy sources, both lipid and muscle, to provide the necessary calories for survival. So, to be able to maintain lean tissue mass and lose fat mass during caloric restriction is a near ideal outcome.

 

[Gutterpump]

think the real question is, do you the user get enough in your diet? its the same with protein. Do you need to take addt protein in order to meet your needs.

Not sure if that was directed towards me, but I only use BCAAs as an expensive water flavoring. It's the only way I can get enough water down. I don't use it to supplement my protein intake. I will use a few scoops peri-workout though because it definitely helps me through rough sessions.

 

[smith_69]

Not sure if that was directed towards me, but I only use BCAAs as an expensive water flavoring. It's the only way I can get enough water down. I don't use it to supplement my protein intake. I will use a few scoops peri-workout though because it definitely helps me through rough sessions.

hey bro,

no just out there

 

[Chuck Diesel]

think the real question is, do you the user get enough in your diet? its the same with protein. Do you need to take addt protein in order to meet your needs.
During cancer treatment, there are certain amino's that are not given to patients as this would not help; glycine is one.

A company can provide a detailed analysis of the product they are using for you the consumer. there are hundreds of companies selling everything, this we all know and those who boast about everything! you can go with a company that has been to the moon and back and walked across America on their hands and knees while only taking product X- lol
or you can go with a company that sells the product without everything attached to it and you be the judge

Well we hit on this a few pages ago, and the results of a study that says anabolic activity happens with a higher ratio of Leucine to EAA. So theoretically, no matter how much protein you eat or drink, it doesn't change the ratio of EAAs to leucine in that mixture. At least in older adults.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Anyone else getting hungry from drinking BCAAs??