BCAA's a must or hype?

[Admin]

I was just being over the top. I got DOMS studies. Will post when Im not doing absolutely nothing.

I've read them. I've read almost everything on the subject.

 

[JudoJosh]

Pre-workout, before bed.

Preworkout as a bolus or sipped into intraworkout?

Assuming you have tried protein under the same conditions/scenerios right? Was the effects not noticeable at all or are they just greater with the ff-aminos?

The pre bed stuff is interesting imo. The recc to take them pre bed (alone zor in conjunction with a GDA) has been around for a while now and we are just now starting to investigate this timing window. Von loon's lab recently pubbed a pre-bed protein study and I suspect they have follow ups in the works. If I can secure funding for it, this is something I would like to explore myself.

 

[JudoJosh]

I've read them. I've read almost everything on the subject.

Do you have a pet theory as to what is going on here that makes BCAAs elicit results that protein doesnt?

 

[Admin]

Preworkout as a bolus or sipped into intraworkout?

30 minutes before.

Assuming you have tried protein under the same conditions/scenerios right? Was the effects not noticeable at all or are they just greater with the ff-aminos?

Yes. I've compared it to food, vs whey, vs casein. I get quicker recovery and less DOMS with BCAA's. I don't know why, I'd rather it not. Like I said before, when I was in my early 30's, I didn't notice anything. Now, I do.

 

[ma70]

30 minutes before.



Yes. I've compared it to food, vs whey, vs casein. I get quicker recovery and less DOMS with BCAA's. I don't know why, I'd rather it not. Like I said before, when I was in my early 30's, I didn't notice anything. Now, I do.

What BCAAs do you use? Just wondering.

 

[Admin]

Do you have a pet theory as to what is going on here that makes BCAAs elicit results that protein doesnt?

Protein metabolism and aging. My conclusion? I haven't the slightest clue.

"It is likely that this stimulatory effect of essential and BCAA is due to the direct effect of leucine on the initiation of mRNA translation"

Possible?

 

[Admin]

What BCAAs do you use? Just wondering.

Xtend and Modern BCAA.

 

[JudoJosh]

30 minutes before.



Yes. I've compared it to food, vs whey, vs casein. I get quicker recovery and less DOMS with BCAA's. I don't know why, I'd rather it not. Like I said before, when I was in my early 30's, I didn't notice anything. Now, I do.

How about CHO sources? Something like vitrago (sp?) Pre or intraworkout?

 

[Admin]

How about CHO sources? Something like vitrago (sp?) Pre or intraworkout?

Have a meal 90 minutes before.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

How about CHO sources? Something like vitrago (sp?) Pre or intraworkout?

Carbs intra workout isnt good bc their effect on insulin. Preworkout is much better or post 4 carbs

 

[JudoJosh]

Protein metabolism and aging. My conclusion? I haven't the slightest clue.

"It is likely that this stimulatory effect of essential and BCAA is due to the direct effect of leucine on the initiation of mRNA translation"

Possible?

Well we know that protein metabolisim including leucine threshold, changes with age, so maybe it's an age repeated thing here but I'm curious as to exactly what it is.

As for the mRNA quote, our lab is currently investigating some microRNA pathways so naturally I am thinking about this from that perspective. MiRNA is an emerging area of research with little understanding so perhaps the answer is in there somewhere. I have access to muscle cells and just might actually hang some in an amino bath and see what kind of signaling changes emerge.

 

[JudoJosh]

Have a meal 90 minutes before.

I'm also curious if this is simply a case of nutrient availability. Perhaps your gut isn't processing food (including whey) as efficiently so when you exercise there is more damage and thus more DOMS and when you take ff-aminos you circumvent digestion and have a full amino pool to draw from resulting in less damage. So I am curious if replacing the aminos with a easy digestible carb (vitargo for example) 2ould yield similar reaults. Would supply immediate energy and spare your amino pool and result in less DOMS.

 

[JudoJosh]

Carbs intra workout isnt good bc their effect on insulin. Preworkout is much better or post 4 carbs

"Carbs intra isn't good"... for what purpose?

This is a broad statement, that is mostly false BTW. I'm sure there is a scenerio where they might not be great in but for the most part they are fine, with a slight lean towards actually being better overall.

 

[Admin]

Well we know that protein metabolisim including leucine threshold, changes with age, so maybe it's an age repeated thing here but I'm curious as to exactly what it is.

As for the mRNA quote, our lab is currently investigating some microRNA pathways so naturally I am thinking about this from that perspective. MiRNA is an emerging area of research with little understanding so perhaps the answer is in there somewhere. I have access to muscle cells and just might actually hang some in an amino bath and see what kind of signaling changes emerge.

Age related resistance....to various things. Insulin, amino acids, etc...And I think it might even be more noticeable in those with above average muscle mass. Much of my trial and error revolved around reading studies done with sarcopenia so I gave it a whirl....

 

[JudoJosh]

Age related resistance....to various things. Insulin, amino acids, etc...And I think it might even be more noticeable in those with above average muscle mass. Much of my trial and error revolved around reading studies done with sarcopenia so I gave it a whirl....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3571692/

This might be of interest to you, you old fart

 

[Admin]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3571692/

This might be of interest to you, you old fart

Read it. Along with others.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3183816/

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Carbs intra isn't good... for what purpose?

This is a broad statement, that is mostly false BTW. I'm sure there is a scenerio where they might not be great in but for the most part they are fine, with a slight lean towards actually being better overall.

During an average 45 min - 1.5 hour workout. Its better to take them preworkout or post. You are saying it is better to take carbs intra workout than preworkout??

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Most studies on carbs intra workout is done on endurance athletes training over 2 hours, at a high intensity. "arms day" for 1 hour, itsn't "endurance training."

 

[JudoJosh]

Read it. Along with others.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3183816/

Haven't read that yet, thanks.

Age and disease related skeletal muscle atrophy is a topic our lab is exploring (pretty much the only way to get funded to do hypertrophy research) so this is an area of research that I have recently become interested in.

 

[ma70]

I notice reduction in DOMS when taking EAA+HBCD (Intra-MD) as opposed to just EAAS, or BCAAs intra. I also train with high frequency and don't do bro splits. Just my two cents!

 

[JudoJosh]

During an average 45 min - 1.5 hour workout. Its better to take them preworkout or post. You are saying it is better to take carbs intra workout than preworkout??

I'm saying it's fine to take them intra, not that one is better than the other

 

[Admin]

Haven't read that yet, thanks.

Age and disease related skeletal muscle atrophy is a topic our lab is exploring (pretty much the only way to get funded to do hypertrophy research) so this is an area of research that I have recently become interested in.

You'll become even more interested in 10 years when you wake up everyday sore from something. :lol:

 

[JudoJosh]

You'll become even more interested in 10 years when you wake up everyday sore from something.

Oh I know. I catch myself making the old man grunts when I get up from prolonged sitting on my couch sometimes. It's always a rude reminder that I am slowly falling apart :scared:

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Read it. Along with others.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3183816/

Sooo...this doesn't say "eat more protein." It actually says get more essential aminos with a higher ratio of leucine.

Its funny if I say BCAAs are for XYZ and its "holy fck hell no ur so stupid blabla"

Admin goes: BCAAs help my DMOS......."silence"

Among the essential amino acids BCAAs have been shown to be the major carriers of amino nitrogen between the viscera and the peripheral tissues, including skeletal muscle (42), but more importantly they appear to be the ones most responsible for the direct stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. Specifically, leucine is the most potent of the BCAAs for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. In general, acute increases in the rates of protein synthesis are determined by the number of ribosomes present in a cell as well as by the translational efficiency per ribosome. Studies on the mechanisms by which acute changes in nutritional status, such as those occurring after feeding, stimulate muscle protein synthesis have shown that feeding does not alter tissue ribosomal content but instead stimulates the initiation of mRNA translation (43–45). Leucine can activate several intracellular signals involved with initiating translation, the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR)5 signaling pathway, which includes 70-kDa ribosomal protein S6 kinase (S6K1), and eukaryotic initiation factor 4E binding protein-1 (4E-BP1) (46–48). Interestingly, it has been reported that in old rats, muscle protein synthesis becomes resistant to the stimulatory effect of leucine in the range of physiologic postprandial concentrations (49). This resistance has been correlated with a defect in the stimulation of S6K1 activity by leucine. More recently, Cuthbertson et al. (50) reported that in a small number of subjects, the sensitivity and responsiveness of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis to various doses of essential amino acids were blunted in the elderly, which appears to be associated with a reduced activity of the mTOR signaling pathway (including mTOR and S6K1).

However, in old rats, the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis can be restored if leucine concentration is raised to supraphysiologic concentrations (49). In humans, Arnal et al. (51) demonstrated that the anabolic response of whole body protein turnover was normalized in the elderly if a protein-pulse feeding pattern (80% of daily protein in 1 meal) was used instead of spread-protein feeding (daily proteins equally distributed), suggesting that a large amount of amino acid may be needed in the elderly to obtain the same anabolic effect observed in the young. Furthermore, preliminary data from Katsanos et al. (52) indicate that muscle protein synthesis can significantly increase in older subjects after consuming a small amount of essential amino acids (6.7 g) if it contains a high proportion of leucine (2.8 g), whereas the same small dose of essential amino acids is ineffective if the proportion of leucine is lower (1.7 g). These results again suggest that aged muscle may be less sensitive to the stimulatory effect of amino acids, especially leucine, at low physiologic concentrations, but that this impairment can be overcome by the provision of a larger amount of leucine.

Also this is why I think they do in fact help DMOS, versus the obvious results driven feedback.

J Exerc Nutrition Biochem. 2013 Dec;17(4):169-80. doi: 10.5717/jenb.2013.17.4.169

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I'm saying it's fine to take them intra, not that one is better than the other

Its not fine as in "better" or beneficial more so than post or pre in regards to insulin response if your doing these "regular people" workouts. Do you want an insulin spike during weight training?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I notice reduction in DOMS when taking EAA+HBCD (Intra-MD) as opposed to just EAAS, or BCAAs intra. I also train with high frequency and don't do bro splits. Just my two cents!

thats prob why no bro splits....

 

[ma70]

thats prob why no bro splits....

Hm? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Hm? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

You train at a higher level. So you would probably ben. from EAAs + IntraMD, versus just EAAs. Also IntraMD contains EAAs.
What I am saying is it makes sense. The average AM guru is working out for 1 hour, with some split like:

Arms (day 1)
traps (day 2)
chest (day 3)
arms (day 4)
off (day 5)

haha

 

[JudoJosh]

Most studies on carbs intra workout is done on endurance athletes training over 2 hours, at a high intensity. "arms day" for 1 hour, itsn't "endurance training."

Not quite.

While intra research is pretty sparse compared with pre and post research, there is some evidence of intra CHO being beneficial

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I'd like one of the "just eat more protein" people to expain this:

suggesting that a large amount of amino acid may be needed in the elderly to obtain the same anabolic effect observed in the young. Furthermore, preliminary data from Katsanos et al. (52) indicate that muscle protein synthesis can significantly increase in older subjects after consuming a small amount of essential amino acids (6.7 g) if it contains a high proportion of leucine (2.8 g), whereas the same small dose of essential amino acids is ineffective if the proportion of leucine is lower (1.7 g). These results again suggest that aged muscle may be less sensitive to the stimulatory effect of amino acids, especially leucine, at low physiologic concentrations, but that this impairment can be overcome by the provision of a larger amount of leucine.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Not quite.

While intra research is pretty sparse compared with pre and post research, there is some evidence of intra CHO being beneficial

Research says over 2hours of intense exercise. I don't want no insulin spikes intra weight training. Back to BCAAs.

 

[JudoJosh]

Sooo...this doesn't say "eat more protein." It actually says get more essential aminos with a higher ratio of leucine.

Its funny if I say BCAAs are for XYZ and its "holy fck hell no ur so stupid blabla"

Admin goes: BCAAs help my DMOS......."silence"

Among the essential amino acids BCAAs have been shown to be the major carriers of amino nitrogen between the viscera and the peripheral tissues, including skeletal muscle (42), but more importantly they appear to be the ones most responsible for the direct stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. Specifically, leucine is the most potent of the BCAAs for the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis. In general, acute increases in the rates of protein synthesis are determined by the number of ribosomes present in a cell as well as by the translational efficiency per ribosome. Studies on the mechanisms by which acute changes in nutritional status, such as those occurring after feeding, stimulate muscle protein synthesis have shown that feeding does not alter tissue ribosomal content but instead stimulates the initiation of mRNA translation (43–45). Leucine can activate several intracellular signals involved with initiating translation, the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR)5 signaling pathway, which includes 70-kDa ribosomal protein S6 kinase (S6K1), and eukaryotic initiation factor 4E binding protein-1 (4E-BP1) (46–48). Interestingly, it has been reported that in old rats, muscle protein synthesis becomes resistant to the stimulatory effect of leucine in the range of physiologic postprandial concentrations (49). This resistance has been correlated with a defect in the stimulation of S6K1 activity by leucine. More recently, Cuthbertson et al. (50) reported that in a small number of subjects, the sensitivity and responsiveness of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis to various doses of essential amino acids were blunted in the elderly, which appears to be associated with a reduced activity of the mTOR signaling pathway (including mTOR and S6K1).

However, in old rats, the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis can be restored if leucine concentration is raised to supraphysiologic concentrations (49). In humans, Arnal et al. (51) demonstrated that the anabolic response of whole body protein turnover was normalized in the elderly if a protein-pulse feeding pattern (80% of daily protein in 1 meal) was used instead of spread-protein feeding (daily proteins equally distributed), suggesting that a large amount of amino acid may be needed in the elderly to obtain the same anabolic effect observed in the young. Furthermore, preliminary data from Katsanos et al. (52) indicate that muscle protein synthesis can significantly increase in older subjects after consuming a small amount of essential amino acids (6.7 g) if it contains a high proportion of leucine (2.8 g), whereas the same small dose of essential amino acids is ineffective if the proportion of leucine is lower (1.7 g). These results again suggest that aged muscle may be less sensitive to the stimulatory effect of amino acids, especially leucine, at low physiologic concentrations, but that this impairment can be overcome by the provision of a larger amount of leucine.

Also this is why I think they do in fact help DMOS, versus the obvious results driven feedback.

J Exerc Nutrition Biochem. 2013 Dec;17(4):169-80. doi: 10.5717/jenb.2013.17.4.169

That doesn't say what you think it does.

 

[JudoJosh]

Its not fine as in "better" or beneficial more so than post or pre in regards to insulin response if your doing these "regular people" workouts. Do you want an insulin spike during weight training?

What's wrong with increased insulin during exercise? The little bit of research we do have says if anythinf it is beneficial

 

[ma70]

You train at a higher level. So you would probably ben. from EAAs + IntraMD, versus just EAAs. Also IntraMD contains EAAs.
What I am saying is it makes sense. The average AM guru is working out for 1 hour, with some split like:

Arms (day 1)
traps (day 2)
chest (day 3)
arms (day 4)
off (day 5)

haha

Oh okay. Thanks for that. I was just giving my anecdotal feedback since you guys started talking about Intra carbs.

 

[JudoJosh]

Research says over 2hours of intense exercise. I don't want no insulin spikes intra weight training. Back to BCAAs.

What?

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Why is intra workout insulin bad?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

That doesn't say what you think it does.

Its says consuming essential aminos (not protein) is more anaboliv if it contains a higher ratio of leucine. So how is eating more protein going to increase the ratio of leucine to essential aminos?? It also states in there that there is an anabolic difference between consuming essential and non-essential aminos vesus just essential ones. What I am saying is this is why people should look at BCAAs as a supplement. Not something that you swap out in terms of daily required protein intake per kg.

This study found a ratio of like 2:1 for EAA to leucine is best. Protein is what?? 10-15% leucine at the most and thats EAA and non-essential. Not only did it find it best it says less that that ratio (< ~ 48% leucine) isnt anabolic in older ppl.

 

[JudoJosh]

Well that was a fun use of class time!

I gotta run and pretend to be productive now

 

[smith_69]

I'm also curious if this is simply a case of nutrient availability. Perhaps your gut isn't processing food (including whey) as efficiently so when you exercise there is more damage and thus more DOMS and when you take ff-aminos you circumvent digestion and have a full amino pool to draw from resulting in less damage. So I am curious if replacing the aminos with a easy digestible carb (vitargo for example) 2ould yield similar reaults. Would supply immediate energy and spare your amino pool and result in less DOMS.

that is a very good question and and I wish it was that easy. Unfortunately, AA are not like fats and starches which can be stored. the body will not store them for later use.

 

[Jiigzz]

is bringing up the point that bcaas arnt complete proteins not a bit redundant? not trying to be a wise guy srs. you eat protein=amino acids for hours no? as it takes many many hours for protein to fully digest. is it not more than likely that our demographic has more than enough complete protein being broken down pretty consistently throughout the day?

if thats as accurate, as it is logical (in my head), then the main argument should be whether or not a influx of bcaas causes enough of a benefit in its elevation of mps from leucine and other benefits, that it merits use regardless of protein content, as whole protein chains are readily available to make use of. based on that thought its always confused me with the interest in eaas, as do we not have more than enough eaas typically going through us, isnt the bcaa going to the best bang for your buck? aside from those training fasted lacking an amino acid pool to pull from.

we do know that high amounts of different singular free form amino acids have different impacts on markers than simply consuming them through whole foods.

based on those thoughts, idk why they some only recommend them while cutting in a definitive sense.

No. And thats the point of what I'm saying. If an strength traine requires more than a runner who requires more than a sedentary person, how would stopping at the recommendation of stopping at the level required for sedentary be beneficial?

You cant build muscle without substrate, so you can spike MPS all you like. Think of MPS like motivating a builder. If you have enough wood (protein) then motivating a builder will get him building something, if you dont, well you've motivated him but theres nothing for him to build.

If lower works for you then go crazy, its about collectives rather than individuals. But MPS and BCAAs alone are not enough to build muscle

 

[LovingtoLift]

If you got the money why not use anything that can only help you achieve your goals faster? Got the cash to spend on BCAA's? Use them along with a good diet and workout routine.

Lets see here would you rather go out and spend money on **** that doesn't benefit you in the gym? If you can afford to go out and blow 100 bucks on Fridays at a freakin bar, spend that money more wisely and invest it into something that will help you fitness wise. Maybe there is another supplement you would like to have? Well you gotta make a decision as to what is a priority in your life. Drinking on Fridays or something that will help you in the gym. I have no respect for people who cry they don't have the money for something but then you see them having no problem getting wasted on the weekend.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

If you got the money why not use anything that can only help you achieve your goals faster? Got the cash to spend on BCAA's? Use them along with a good diet and workout routine.

Lets see here would you rather go out and spend money on **** that doesn't benefit you in the gym? If you can afford to go out and blow 100 bucks on Fridays at a freakin bar, spend that money more wisely and invest it into something that will help you fitness wise. Maybe there is another supplement you would like to have? Well you gotta make a decision as to what is a priority in your life. Drinking on Fridays or something that will help you in the gym. I have no respect for people who cry they don't have the money for something but then you see them having no problem getting wasted on the weekend.

I say this when ppl complain about a product costing $3 more than another. Im like sht it cost me at least $60-90 to go out and eat 1 semi-good meal here in Chicago.

 

[ma70]

If you got the money why not use anything that can only help you achieve your goals faster? Got the cash to spend on BCAA's? Use them along with a good diet and workout routine.

Lets see here would you rather go out and spend money on **** that doesn't benefit you in the gym? If you can afford to go out and blow 100 bucks on Fridays at a freakin bar, spend that money more wisely and invest it into something that will help you fitness wise. Maybe there is another supplement you would like to have? Well you gotta make a decision as to what is a priority in your life. Drinking on Fridays or something that will help you in the gym. I have no respect for people who cry they don't have the money for something but then you see them having no problem getting wasted on the weekend.

Maybe it's just me, but this seems absolutely irrelevant to what is being discussed here.

 

[LovingtoLift]

Its not irrevelant. Im making a perfect example of how many people complain they can't justify spending money on supplements, but then they go out on Fridays and spend money on **** that is counterproductive to the work they put in at the gym. Hamsters running in place is what I call them. They don't want it bad enough. They do not have the EYE of the TIGER.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Maybe it's just me, but this seems absolutely irrelevant to what is being discussed here.

Well it relates to the underlying problem that ppl hate on BCAAs bc they are not dirt cheap like creatine. If they were $3/kg no one would b like "fck bcaas eat more." Sht protein isolate is expensive and b only like 60% protein by volume and ppl will consume 10lbs a protein powder a month like nothing...with no "Gainz" whatsoever in comparison to the cost of protein.

 

[Jiigzz]

Carbs intra workout isnt good bc their effect on insulin. Preworkout is much better or post 4 carbs

Can you spike insulin durig exercise or are carbs shuttled via another mechanism?

I akways hear conflicting info on this - but I have read a lot of diabetic studies. Need something in normal subjects

 

[ma70]

Well it relates to the underlying problem that ppl hate on BCAAs bc they are not dirt cheap like creatine. If they were $3/kg no one would b like "fck bcaas eat more." Sht protein isolate is expensive and b only like 60% protein by volume and ppl will consume 10lbs a protein powder a month like nothing...with no "Gainz" whatsoever in comparison to the cost of protein.

I guess so. I mean, I'm just going by the original question "will BCAAs help me?"

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Can you spike insulin durig exercise or are carbs shuttled via another mechanism?

Only shuttled by insulin or insulin like substances... you have higher insulin sensitivity when liver and blood glycogen in low. Protein causes you to do more w less insulin. So depends on your stores when you take them and your level of sensitivity to insulin

 

[Jiigzz]

I'd like one of the "just eat more protein" people to expain this:

suggesting that a large amount of amino acid may be needed in the elderly to obtain the same anabolic effect observed in the young. Furthermore, preliminary data from Katsanos et al. (52) indicate that muscle protein synthesis can significantly increase in older subjects after consuming a small amount of essential amino acids (6.7 g) if it contains a high proportion of leucine (2.8 g), whereas the same small dose of essential amino acids is ineffective if the proportion of leucine is lower (1.7 g). These results again suggest that aged muscle may be less sensitive to the stimulatory effect of amino acids, especially leucine, at low physiologic concentrations, but that this impairment can be overcome by the provision of a larger amount of leucine.

All your quotes are for leucine - read them over and you'll see the importance of that. Noone is saying leucine isnt important, but leucine at the MPS threshold, whether from protein or as free form, will trigger MPS. That DOES NOT mean they will build more muscle UNLESS there is enough protein available to do this with.

If your only data is on the value of leucine to justify more BCAAs, then you do not understand the relationship between leucine, MPS and then available protein.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I guess so. I mean, I'm just going by the original question "will BCAAs help me?"

Well studies and real world use show it should help you with something training related. The backlash comes from the price and ppl thinking BCAAs is the same as dietary protein.

 

[ma70]

Well studies and real world use show it should help you with something training related. The backlash comes from the price and ppl thinking BCAAs is the same as dietary protein.

I believe in them, otherwise I wouldn't be using my EAA/intracarb drink.