an analysis of chemical nomenclature of jungle warfare

[jasonschaffin]

Taking a look at the chemical nomenclature here...

1st, from the most current label that FnF posted in ALR message to PA post:



Taking out the "5a-dehydro" part just for a minute, leaves the following:

17a-methyl-etiocholane-4,6-dien-3-one-17-ol

Which is exactly the same compound that Patrick posted about that is in Vida. In other words, it is just another way of saying:

17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one

=================

Now back to the "5a-dehydro" part. 5a means it has a hydrogen atom at the 5-alpha position, just like Patrick posted earlier in this thread.

But what about "dehydro"? What does that mean? Dehydro means that there is a loss of a hydrogen atom.

So putting the two together, "5a-dehydro" , is a contradiction in terms. One means to add a H atom at the 5-alpha position and the other means a loss of an H atom. So these two terms cancel each other out, when listed in this order with this nomenclature.

Sorry, nevermind. Stupid post. Forgot what the chemical structure for test was for a second apparently...

 

[B5150]

it has no special name

but i will give it one

6-dehydromethyltestosterone

Sounds logical.

6-dehydromethyltestosterone™?

BTW, I applaud all parties on their civil behavior.

 

[ShadowJack]

it has no special name

but i will give it one

6-dehydromethyltestosterone

I would agree that is a good name for a compound with the chemical nomenclature listed here.

There actually is a compound called 1-dehydromethyltestosterone - and the chemical nomenclature listed here (minus the "5a" part) is a very, very similar structure - except for the change from a 1-ene to a 6-ene.

 

[arena]

my opinon on alri

When alr said the results speak for themselves, i immediently knew something is fishy and will never buy from alri again. our health is in the hands of this guy and he doesnt even have the decency to discuss what we are putting in our body. i dont care about results, i care about my health. cleary all this guy is after is $$$$.

now im not sayin arnold is not after $$$. after all, his products are expensive. however, atleast he is willing to discuss the health effects of his products and does not hype his products up

 

[SCDiesel23]

my opinon on alri

When alr said the results speak for themselves, i immediently knew something is fishy and will never buy from alri again. our health is in the hands of this guy and he doesnt even have the decency to discuss what we are putting in our body. i dont care about results, i care about my health. cleary all this guy is after is $$$$.

now im not sayin arnold is not after $$$. after all, his products are expensive. however, atleast he is willing to discuss the health effects of his products and does not hype his products up

And so begins the downward spiral. Don't come in here throwing around accusations, saying you "won't buy the product because all ALR is after is money" No one cares.This conversation so far has been based heavily on civility and respect, don't ruin that.

 

[B5150]

our health is in the hands of this guy

YOUR health is in YOUR hands!

 

[B5150]

This conversation so far has been based heavily on civility and respect, don't ruin that.

It will remain that way. Thanks.

 

[EasyEJL]

my opinon on alri

When alr said the results speak for themselves, i immediently knew something is fishy and will never buy from alri again. our health is in the hands of this guy and he doesnt even have the decency to discuss what we are putting in our body. i dont care about results, i care about my health. cleary all this guy is after is $$$$.

They have to make a living too. If they disclose everything in their product and exact mixes and exact everything, how long does it take for someone else to do a clone product and undercut them by a couple bucks and kill their margins? This is why pharmacuetical products are so expensive, so much research + development time goes in, cost of FDA approval and there is a limited window before generics are allowed. Do you think the supplement companies are run by volunteers?

The results speaking for themselves thing is a little bit of a "yeah right" sort of thing, but if they were trying to hide something, they also wouldn't be sending the sample bottles to PA either. I was planning on JW for October this year, and unless PA comes up with something that makes me believe there is health risk, I will be using it for at 12 weeks starting october. Even if PA comes back with "its an inactive ingredient" I think that from what I've seen in logs so far that its worth a shot for me anyhow. I haven't seen much in the way of other products look like they give better results without requiring post cycle therapy

 

[B5150]

Please guys. I am not going to sit here and censor posts. Ignorant statements require no response. If you do not entertain ignorance it will go away. Please stay on topic.

 

[bLacKjAck.]

Please guys. I am not going to sit here and censor posts. Ignorant statements require no response. If you do not entertain ignorance it will go away. Please stay on topic.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to B5150 again.

 

[arena]

They have to make a living too. If they disclose everything in their product and exact mixes and exact everything, how long does it take for someone else to do a clone product and undercut them by a couple bucks and kill their margins? This is why pharmacuetical products are so expensive, so much research + development time goes in, cost of FDA approval and there is a limited window before generics are allowed. Do you think the supplement companies are run by volunteers?

The results speaking for themselves thing is a little bit of a "yeah right" sort of thing, but if they were trying to hide something, they also wouldn't be sending the sample bottles to PA either. I was planning on JW for October this year, and unless PA comes up with something that makes me believe there is health risk, I will be using it for at 12 weeks starting october. Even if PA comes back with "its an inactive ingredient" I think that from what I've seen in logs so far that its worth a shot for me anyhow. I haven't seen much in the way of other products look like they give better results without requiring post cycle therapy

but with that kind of thinking, its only a matter of time until a company makes a steroid and markets it as a mutli vatamin.

 

[EasyEJL]

but with that kind of thinking, its only a matter of time until a company makes a steroid and markets it as a mutli vatamin.

Which is why the question of some level of FDA testing of supplements has come up... Naming something "Tri-Nitro-Tolulene" doesn't change the fact that in testing it would be determined to be dynamite.

There isn't an easy answer to it. Companies won't spend the R&D dollars if they can't recoup them. But if they are forced to precisely detail the formula, and the items are all herbal or herbal extracts there needs to be some sort of government regulation that allows people to copyright or patent the formula, and not have others infringe for x amount of time.

 

[powerman12345]

i serously hope PA is wrong, cus damnn would alri be in a VERY VERY bad position from a legal standpoint

 

[neoborn]

i am not gonna lie. i am not simply inquisitive or curious. I know exactly what ALRI is doing with their labelling approach. Other companies do it to. And I hate it. Its unfair to me as a competitor. I just cannot pretend to be objective in my posts as i am not. So it comes out and you find it annoying. I understand that

I also have a pet peeve when my competitors completely f' up things chemically speaking. It makes me feel like i am a chemist competing with a bunch of others who are just "playing" chemist. How would a doctor feel competing against others that are just "playing" doctor.

I must add that if I was in this position as well, as a competitor trying to maintain a high quality product line, seeing others just ignorantly ( not saying ALRI are ) misleading consumers by consealing their ingredients, I would be p!ssed off as well.

Let's all work together to bring the general supplemental industry up a level NOT down to the bottom of the barrel eh?

Work together, get a few companies together and agree on a standard for labelling and perhaps not giving all the ingredients away.

No fear.....it's a better lifestyle.

 

[Riquee]

Thats incredible, they even HEAR about drama and they coming running...:run:

"I've been working steady for the past twelve years, minus the last three" : Johnny Drama:afro:

 

[Boris]

Keep This Thread On Topic!

 

[neoborn]

And um what are you doing about this??? If I found a problem and did nothing about it, is that not even worse than not knowing there is a problem and doing nothing about it?

Are you taking any actions with these problems you find? Contacting companies etc etc giving them a chance to correct their labels etc before you take it further?:dance:

The one problem I have, is the DSHEA clearly requires that companies list the common or usual name for ingredients. Consumers are not required to guess what is in a product. I have seen company after company list obscure or altered chemical names in order to hide their ingredients from "copycat competitors". This is a clear violation of the law and is not allowed. PA is not exempt from this criticism as AMP did this very thing, but at least he has rectified it.

 

[FitnFirm]

Patricks package has been sent, He will receive it tomorrow afternoon.

 

[thesinner]

Patricks package has been sent, He will receive it tomorrow afternoon.

His is detachable? He's a greater scientist than I had originally thought.

 

[Viperspit]

His is detachable? He's a greater scientist than I had originally thought.

I don't follow? detachable?

 

[drunk]

I don't follow? detachable?

I think he is making a reference to his "package".

 

[thesinner]

I don't follow? detachable?

Patricks PACKAGE has been sent, He will receive it tomorrow afternoon.

If my package was delivered to me in the mail......

 

[Viperspit]

If my package was delivered to me in the mail......

lmao, wow that one went right over my head, totally missed it.

 

[bigblank69]

lmao, wow that one went right over my head, totally missed it.

I think this is in reference to the song/music video that came out 15 years ago... "Detachable penis"

Damn I'm getting old....

 

[T-Bone]

 

[whitedevil74]

Which is why the question of some level of FDA testing of supplements has come up... Naming something "Tri-Nitro-Tolulene" doesn't change the fact that in testing it would be determined to be dynamite.

There isn't an easy answer to it. Companies won't spend the R&D dollars if they can't recoup them. But if they are forced to precisely detail the formula, and the items are all herbal or herbal extracts there needs to be some sort of government regulation that allows people to copyright or patent the formula, and not have others infringe for x amount of time.

If you create a product you can patent it, or if you discover a new use for an existing product you can acquire a use patent, so if it truly is a new ingredient or a novel use protection is afforded to innovators. X-Factor is a perfect illustration of this, as is forslean (an forskolin extract.)

 

[neoborn]

Because it lowers estrogen in women and raises test, so you can build muscle.......... DUH

Does this mean that you cry less and suddenly are able to think logically?:duel: :woohoo: :wave:

 

[kraftkid]

i grew tolerant to the pills over time too

you should try clearshot though. for some reason it hits me like the amp used to

I have this reaction to ALL stims and I did with Amp as well. That is why i mix it up periodically, try to take breaks, etc.

A good trick to try is add grapefruit to the mix (lower your does until you see how you respond) and I guess now try something like Reset (but I have never used it).

 

[jmh80]

i grew tolerant to the pills over time too

you should try clearshot though. for some reason it hits me like the amp used to

Pat - I'll make a similar comment as Yeah Right. The first bottle of Amp (with the vague label) hit me HARD the whole bottle (seemingly).

The second and third (at least 4 months later) didn't do much of anything.

I took that to be more chocamine relative to the geranium compound.

I'm going to try some Clear Shot though. I LOVED the first bottle of Amp.

 

[Outside Backer]

Well stated and thank you. As per your P.S. part, I lol'd, people from dramacentral are coming over here to review the thread. There were over 100 guests here yesterday reviewing this thread?

Can we say Paris hilton is a ***** here ?:dance:

 

[jmh80]

Ok I have two questions for you or Patrick. I dont understand something :

17a, doesnt A stand for alkyl here ? you guys keep writing ALPHA, I ask because one of the labels spells out alkyl.


5a-dehydro- ok so what is this you removed from the above ? what do you think this does for the compound? Or you think its just there to derail ?

What is the possibility that ALR actually stumbled on something no one else ever has ?

Thanks guys for the lesson I could never do chemistry for a living, as all this gives me a headache :lol:

A stands for alpha. I think it's the position relative to a planar perspective (think looking at a piece of paper from the side, as it's flat, alpha/beta means above or below the paper).

Steric hendrances come into play with the plane a molecule must occupy (and energy level an overall molecule occupies as constituents occupy different planes).

Haven't seen the label - but I guess that's a typo. A means alpha.

 

[jmh80]

Yes, but ALR says Alkyl's are Methyl's......... so I be confused even more, :think:

Not true.

At my refinery (every refinery) we ALKYLATE with iso-butane (a 4 carbon molecule - methyl has 1 carbon).
(Makes iso-octane when reacted with 1-butene along with sulfuric acid.)

 

[AtownKing187]

Can we say Paris hilton is a ***** here ?:dance:

STAY ON TOPIC!!!!

 

[thesinner]

Not true.

At my refinery (every refinery) we ALKYLATE with iso-butane (a 4 carbon molecule - methyl has 1 carbon).
(Makes iso-octane when reacted with 1-butene along with sulfuric acid.)

Now you're just confusing the poor lady (with bigger traps than us). A methyl group is a type of alkyl.

 

[jmh80]

Yeah - you are right, I re-read her post. I thought she said ALR said "ALL alkyl's are methyl".

True that a CH3 is a type of alkyl.
My bad.


Well, if anything - people learned how a major octane booster is made for their motor gasoline. :lol:

 

[Chemist2234]

I must say that this is my favorite thread of all time. lots of learning, lots of chemistry. Its good for people no so familiar with chemistry to learn some. people being civil asking interesting questions. Awesome Thread.

 

[Vitruvian]

lmao, wow that one went right over my head, totally missed it.

Does fit know PA's package is above your head?

Uncalled for..... sorry. Carry one.........

 

[jmh80]

Pat,
What sort of testing are you going to do?
Are you going to try to look for the molecule in question only via isolation?
Or throw a whole cap into a machine (not sure what is most appropriate)?

 

[Viperspit]

Does fit know PA's package is above your head?

Uncalled for..... sorry. Carry one.........

negged at bb. oh and take this with you :nutkick:

 

[TravisCoSheriff]

Pat,
What sort of testing are you going to do?
Are you going to try to look for the molecule in question only via isolation?
Or throw a whole cap into a machine (not sure what is most appropriate)?

Diddo how does one test such things. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Erik2003]

Testing protocol

PA, if you could, I would like it if you would put into this threat the testing process you used, what you did, how it was done and explain what happened, while keeping the result sealed for ALRI.

I think there are allot of people reading this thread that are very interested in what is going on.

Also, if you do find anything, and both you and ALRI feel its ok to divulge, please inform us regarding what was found, and the effects on a person.

There definitely needs to be a conclusion to this thread and resolution for people to read.

Thanks...

 

[pistonpump]

PA, if you could, I would like it if you would put into this threat the testing process you used, what you did, how it was done and explain what happened, while keeping the result sealed for ALRI.

I think there are allot of people reading this thread that are very interested in what is going on.

Also, if you do find anything, and both you and ALRI feel its ok to divulge, please inform us regarding what was found, and the effects on a person.

There definitely needs to be a conclusion to this thread and resolution for people to read.

Thanks...

EXACTLY! I cant see how this is good for consumers if we dont get the real results from the testing. It defeats the whole purpose dont you think PA? If ALR doesnt mind I think since you stirred this up you should at least feel a little obligated to put closure to this. I mean this thread was made on the premise that consumers are being mislead etc right?

 

[SCDiesel23]

EXACTLY! I cant see how this is good for consumers if we dont get the real results from the testing. It defeats the whole purpose dont you think PA? If ALR doesnt mind I think since you stirred this up you should at least feel a little obligated to put closure to this. I mean this thread was made on the premise that consumers are being mislead etc right?

It's actually illegal for PA to post the results unless he has the consent of ALR, and even then, if I were Patrick, I'd rather have them post the results just to prevent any possible litigation.

 

[EasyEJL]

It's actually illegal for PA to post the results unless he has the consent of ALR, and even then, if I were Patrick, I'd rather have them post the results just to prevent any possible litigation.

Its illegal to run a chemical test on a substance you can pick up in a retail store and then notify people of potentially dangerous (if that is the case) substances in it?

 

[SCDiesel23]

Its illegal to run a chemical test on a substance you can pick up in a retail store and then notify people of potentially dangerous (if that is the case) substances in it?

If you own a supplement company, and try to expose another supplement company, yes, unfortunately that is illegal. I'm not sure on the legality of someone without any competing interests running such a test and posting the results, however.

 

[FitnFirm]

The package I sent Patrick has been delivered, at 9:10 am this morning.

 

[bLacKjAck.]

The package I sent Patrick has been delivered, at 9:10 am this morning.

Great update. Thanks for keepin us informed!

 

[SCDiesel23]

The package I sent Patrick has been delivered, at 9:10 am this morning.

9:15 a.m., Patrick took his first dose of JW and reported insane pumps at the gym, increased focus, and a feeling of well being. PA is a smart one, he just got JW for free.

 

[bubsnt3]

subscribed

 

[Erik2003]

It's actually illegal for PA to post the results unless he has the consent of ALR, and even then, if I were Patrick, I'd rather have them post the results just to prevent any possible litigation.

In hear what you are saying, but please note that we did state "and both you and ALRI feel its ok to divulge."

I really think something like this needs a resolution/conclusion.