an analysis of chemical nomenclature of jungle warfare

[FitnFirm]

Naturally, yes. With Test, no.

I'm not into hairy hormonally deranged chicks with overgrown clits and mannish faces and voices.

That's probably not you, but that's a breed who played that game too excess, IMO, and became way too fake masculine for me and many others.

Oh well I agree on that, I dont do steroids, and never have. I want to stay feminine, I am married with children. I have no interest in being like that, as I see it the pros do it just to stay competitive because thats what has happened to the sport these days, if you dont juice you will not place in a non drug tested show, and even then there are many who are using GH as prescribed by a doctor for the wrong reasons though. I will never have huge muscles, I just want to be very fit with definition and compete once or twice for fun.

 

[Bloute]

i have some news for you

according to vida, 17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one is 25% as androgenic as methyltest and 60% as anabolic

if that is indeed the compound then you are not taking an anti-aromatase. you are taking a designer prosteroid

 

[arena]

im scared. i hope this **** aint a prosteroid. good thing i recently decided to only buy protein and creatine mono for now on. save money and my health.

 

[FitnFirm]

Bloute people can read without you bumping threads for attention. Unless you have a question that has not been asked already please dont post just to bump ok ? Thank you. I want to keep this thread on a serious level as much as possible. Patrick is a busy man and I dont think he has time to fish through all the meaningless posts for questions.

 

[SCDiesel23]

i have some news for you

according to vida, 17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one is 25% as androgenic as methyltest and 60% as anabolic

if that is indeed the compound then you are not taking an anti-aromatase. you are taking a designer prosteroid

If this is the case, I'm going to be outraged. This would also lead one to think, based on a previous explanation offered by Patrick, that this compound could be hepatoxic, due to it's androgenic properties. Not to mention, think of all the people who use this in PCT. Could this explain the gyno issues many people seem to be experiencing?

 

[FitnFirm]

If this is the case, I'm going to be outraged. This would also lead one to think, based on a previous explanation offered by Patrick, that this compound could be hepatoxic, due to it's androgenic properties. Not to mention, think of all the people who use this in post cycle therapy. Could this explain the gyno issues many people seem to be experiencing?

If this were the case do you think ALR would be so agreeable to have PA test it ? He is all for it. Lets not get upset until the results are back ok? And then if they are what PA thinks you can get very angry as I would expect nothing less from you or anyone else. Agreed?

 

[Bloute]

Bloute people can read without you bumping threads for attention. Unless you have a question that has not been asked already please dont post just to bump ok ? Thank you. I want to keep this thread on a serious level as much as possible. Patrick is a busy man and I dont think he has time to fish through all the meaningless posts for questions.

Well, that's right FNF. I will wait to post some other questions I already post if you remember. Let's see what PA's analysis says. That's quite surprising for me that this compound could have some androgenic activity. It could explains a lot of sides we reported in the other threads.

But I will listen to you FNF, wait to post again, even apologize and erase the last post.

 

[Bloute]

If this were the case do you think ALR would be so agreeable to have PA test it ? He is all for it. Lets not get upset until the results are back ok? And then if they are what PA thinks you can get very angry as I would expect nothing less from you or anyone else. Agreed?

BTW, I wish PA will be authorized to post the results even if they are bad for ALRI. All the story with Epistane and Havoc reminds me that we cant always get the result to be posted.

 

[yeahright]

i never switched the ingredients in AMP.

Really? Subjectively they seem very different.

I remember being really amazed with the old stuff (energy, mood elevation bordering on uncontrollable smiling). New stuff provides energy but the mood elevation is gone. I never even paid attention to the label changes but had just assumed there was a formula change.

Perhaps I just built-up a tolerance to the mood elevating effects.

 

[SCDiesel23]

If this were the case do you think ALR would be so agreeable to have PA test it ? He is all for it. Lets not get upset until the results are back ok? And then if they are what PA thinks you can get very angry as I would expect nothing less from you or anyone else. Agreed?

Well honestly, Patrick has every right to test it whether ALR agrees or not, it would look a hell of a lot more shady if ALR was strongly against him testing it. Step outside of your rep position for a second, and look at this from a consumers standpoint. Personally, even if this was a steroid/prohormone, it would not surprise me at all if ALR was the only person who knew this, seeing as how all of the reps have been kept in the dark about what exactly "ADED" is. Some points to consider:

1. The second generation bottles of JW were horribly inaccurate in their chemical listing of the product
2. No one has any idea what ADED is, and there is no research available for viewing
3. It was thought that ADED might be mATD, as presented by Patrick. mATD in research is apparently less powerful than ATD alone, yet it is giving people much better gains than just ATD plus divanil would
4. Several, and I mean several people have reported gyno with JW use lately, leading one to think a compound in JW possibly aromatizes
5. Some people have seen gains of 15+ pounds on 2 bottles of JW
6. If JW is androgenic, and is methylated, a possibility of hepatoxicity exists
7. A certain blood test was presented after JW use. I'm not going to repeat the results here, but the people who need to know, know what I'm talking about.
8. Patrick just posted what the chemical listed on the new bottle of JW was, it wasn't "ADED", it was a designer steroid.

Could all of these points lead to just an extremely efficient AI? Maybe, and I certainly hope thats what it means, but put yourself in a consumers position, where they are left out in the dark even more so than the reps.

 

[FitnFirm]

Well honestly, Patrick has every right to test it whether ALR agrees or not, it would look a hell of a lot more shady if ALR was strongly against him testing it. Step outside of your rep position for a second, and look at this from a consumers standpoint. Personally, even if this was a steroid/prohormone, it would not surprise me at all if ALR was the only person who knew this, seeing as how all of the reps have been kept in the dark about what exactly "ADED" is. Some points to consider:

1. The second generation bottles of JW were horribly inaccurate in their chemical listing of the product
2. No one has any idea what ADED is, and there is no research available for viewing
3. It was thought that ADED might be mATD, as presented by Patrick. mATD in research is apparently less powerful than ATD alone, yet it is giving people much better gains than just ATD plus divanil would
4. Several, and I mean several people have reported gyno with JW use lately, leading one to think a compound in JW possibly aromatizes
5. Some people have seen gains of 15+ pounds on 2 bottles of JW
6. If JW is androgenic, and is methylated, a possibility of hepatoxicity exists
7. A certain blood test was presented after JW use. I'm not going to repeat the results here, but the people who need to know, know what I'm talking about.
8. Patrick just posted what the chemical listed on the new bottle of JW was, it wasn't "ADED", it was a designer steroid.

Could all of these points lead to just an extremely efficient AI? Maybe, and I certainly hope thats what it means, but put yourself in a consumers position, where they are left out in the dark even more so than the reps.

Patrick posted this below, and it is not on the bottle of JW new or old. His initial post listed a compound that was in the original JW's first run. He also stated if that is indeed the compound So lets just wait for the results ok ? Actually I will send him one of each bottle ( the pictures I posted earlier of the two labels ) he can test them both. There is just no reason to get heated up before Patrick has the results. No ALR doesnt have to agree to testing, but he sent Patrick and email right away asking for an address so he could have some JW shipped to him, so ALR is being very cordial about this. Actually I think he is quite flattered. And yes, We do care about you and every other member who has used JW, so please do not think we take this lightly. Ive used it too ! I have to say, if it really were what PA says than I am quite dissapointed in the gains I had, I would expect alot more muscle for that type of compound. Yep, ALR isnt going to tell reps what ADED is either, wanna know why ? Because if we were to leave the company we may run our mouth about privelaged information, I specifically asked him NOT to tell me things of this nature so I could not be accused in the future if we leave ALRI someday. ADED is ALR's baby, its up to him to share information with who he desires, no amount of me nagging him will change that, trust me, I have nagged enough for him to call me by the new nickname PITA ! Pain in the ASS !!!!! haha

Tell ya what, I will ship PA's package express even to make sure you can get the results even faster Hey, thats the best I can do for now !

i have some news for you

according to vida, 17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one is 25% as androgenic as methyltest and 60% as anabolic

if that is indeed the compound then you are not taking an anti-aromatase. you are taking a designer prosteroid

Excuse my lack of chemistry knowledge please, but why doesnt the compound above look the same as either of these ?


ADED (5a-dehydro-etiocholane-4,6-dien-3-one-17-ol A.K.A 17a-methyl-5a-dehydro-etiocholane-4,6-dien-3-ene-ol)

 

[SCDiesel23]

Patrick posted this below, and it is not on the bottle of JW new or old. His initial post listed a compound that was in the original JW's first run. He also stated if that is indeed the compound So lets just wait for the results ok ?

I can't multi-quote on here for some reason, however, Patrick responded after you posted ALR's response, with the new label included. He said:

this is not non-androgenic

vida is clear that it has substantial activity. 20:60

gonna shut down the HPTA, not rev it up

This was posted about the NEW LABEL, not the old one from the first run, as this quote is directly below him quoting ALR's response.

Also, even if there is not a PH in it now, if there was EVER a PH or steroid in JW, and it was disguised as an AI, I have absolutely no trust for the company.

I'm trying not to jump to conclusions, but I respect Patrick for who he is. This could be a case of terrible chemical nomenclature on the bottle for all I know, I'm not siding one way or another, I'm simply speaking what I believe and what I have gathered so far from both sides. You know as well as anybody that I am not an ALRI "basher", and have frequently sided with ALRI products. I anxiously await these results, and wish only for the best outcome possible for ALRI.

 

[FitnFirm]

I can't multi-quote on here for some reason, however, Patrick responded after you posted ALR's response, with the new label included. He said:



This was posted about the NEW LABEL, not the old one from the first run, as this quote is directly below him quoting ALR's response.

Also, even if there is not a PH in it now, if there was EVER a PH or steroid in JW, and it was disguised as an AI, I have absolutely no trust for the company.

I'm trying not to jump to conclusions, but I respect Patrick for who he is. This could be a case of terrible chemical nomenclature on the bottle for all I know, I'm not siding one way or another, I'm simply speaking what I believe and what I have gathered so far from both sides. You know as well as anybody that I am not an ALRI "basher", and have frequently sided with ALRI products. I anxiously await these results, and wish only for the best outcome possible for ALRI.

Oh yep, you are right, Sorry I missed that when answering. I know ALR would not be that careless with a product because just before JW's release he stopped making all PH products because of obvious reasons. He didnt want the heat at any cost. Now believe it or not, our products are often taken by FDA right off the line from the manufacturing plant so they can do whatever they want to with them, testing etc. They hold the whole lot and do not release it until they are completed, the lots are always released so this tells me alot. ALR is watched very closely because of the past. Actually I would be very shocked if PA finds what he thinks it is. Just to let you all know Patrick doesnt want to post the results, and I will have to get permission from ALR to do so, seeing how its his company and all.

 

[SCDiesel23]

Oh yep, you are right, Sorry I missed that when answering. I know ALR would not be that careless with a product because just before JW's release he stopped making all PH products because of obvious reasons. He didnt want the heat at any cost. Now believe it or not, our products are often taken by FDA right off the line from the manufacturing plant so they can do whatever they want to with them, testing etc. They hold the whole lot and do not release it until they are completed, the lots are always released so this tells me alot. ALR is watched very closely because of the past. Actually I would be very shocked if PA finds what he thinks it is. Just to let you all know Patrick doesnt want to post the results, and I will have to get permission from ALR to do so, seeing how its his company and all.

I'm not sure how many of ALRIs products pass FDA inspection, as many are not DSHEA compliant. 6-bromo is synthetic (Restore), and according to Patrick, ATD is not in the food source, so methylated ATD is ABSOLUTELY not in the food source. If ADED is a metabolite of ATD, I'm not sure how that could be in the food source either.

Also, if ALR doesn't allow Patrick to post his results, I'm pretty sure that would be more than enough to raise a reasonable suspicion about what is actually in the product.

 

[FitnFirm]

I'm not sure how many of ALRIs products pass FDA inspection, as many are not DSHEA compliant. 6-bromo is synthetic (Restore), and according to Patrick, ATD is not in the food source, so methylated ATD is ABSOLUTELY not in the food source. If ADED is a metabolite of ATD, I'm not sure how that could be in the food source either.

Also, if ALR doesn't allow Patrick to post his results, I'm pretty sure that would be more than enough to raise a reasonable suspicion about what is actually in the product.

Its Patrick that said he doesnt want to post the results, he said we would have to. I will send your comment to ALR and see if he has a reply on that or not. But I know for a fact that the FDA does this to all our capped products on a regular basis and as recent as last week. less often on powdered products such as WTF' Pumpd, the old primed & regeneration x.

i emailed you my addy

after i test it, i will tell you what i think i see, and then it is up to you to post it

 

[browndustin]

Nice to see that this thread has remained relatively civilized. Thank you Pat and Kathy for playing nicely!! And thanks for getting ALR to comment, my dear!

It's definitely nice to take breaks from BB.com now and again

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm quite interested in this, as JW is one of the "top contenders" for my fall supplement stack (I've already pre-planned thru end of summer).

 

[Viperspit]

Wow this thread is getting alot of publicity. Hell people are even creating new screen names over at dramacentral to cross post items from here

Have a great day all!!
:djparty:

 

[pistonpump]

ADED is also in Alpha Drive XL...is that a company owned by ALRI if not then others have the stuff....i just stumbled on this, i wonder if there are anymore out there.

 

[warnerve]

ALRI licenses stuff to people, that is where they got it from i believe

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I just wanted to voice my applause to ALRI.

I do not know anyone who would surrender a product for testing without asking that a person be present to guard against tampering, incorrect testing, other irregularities or just to protect the integrity of the testing.

Based on what I am seeing, I do have to applaud ALRI in their response, professionalism and fair play regarding this issue. I just do not know of any other companies or reps that would have responded this well or professionally.

I also have to thank PA for this post as it does bring a certain amount of consumer protection to the forefront.

actually i am sort of surprised he offered his product for me to test

i am not going to reveal what i find to anyone but fitnfirm though.

as a rep of ALRI it will be up to her whether to disclose the info or not

 

[Erik2003]

actually i am sort of surprised he offered his product for me to test

i am not going to reveal what i find to anyone but fitnfirm though.

as a rep of ALRI it will be up to her whether to disclose the info or not

Yes I noticed, and I have to say damn good job on your part. I knew you could have just bought a bottle and done the testing on your own, but I think this has been very professionally handled by for yourself and FIT.

Hopefully, you can take a few more second in your posts and attempt to decifer your posting for the common person. I am still trying to search for an Organist Chemistry to English dictonary...

 

[bLacKjAck.]

actually i am sort of surprised he offered his product for me to test

i am not going to reveal what i find to anyone but fitnfirm though.

as a rep of ALRI it will be up to her whether to disclose the info or not

Nice, very nice.

I just want to say to both parties, Pat and Fnf/ALR. This was a very very encouraging thread for me, to know there is a forum here on the net that can handle controversy and "calling into question" like adults and in a mature manner. AM was already by far by fav. board...but its things like this that just re-inforce that feeling/opinion that much more.

Great job guys! My appplause:clap2:

PS: people from BB should come over here just to see this.......then LEAVE!

 

[Viperspit]

Nice, very nice.

I just want to say to both parties, Pat and Fnf/ALR. This was a very very encouraging thread for me, to know there is a forum here on the net that can handle controversy and "calling into question" like adults and in a mature manner. AM was already by far by fav. board...but its things like this that just re-inforce that feeling/opinion that much more.

Great job guys! My ap:clap2:

PS: people from BB should come over here just to see this.......then LEAVE!

Well stated and thank you. As per your P.S. part, I lol'd, people from dramacentral are coming over here to review the thread. There were over 100 guests here yesterday reviewing this thread?

 

[bLacKjAck.]

Well stated and thank you. As per your P.S. part, I lol'd, people from dramacentral are coming over here to review the thread. There were over 100 guests here yesterday reviewing this thread?

Thats incredible, they even HEAR about drama and they coming running...:run:

 

[Dr Nick]

Will Alr reweal the test results to the public?

 

[SCDiesel23]

Will Alr reweal the test results to the public?

Think about it, if they are favorable to ALRI, sure, if they are not, absolutely not.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

If this is the case, I'm going to be outraged. This would also lead one to think, based on a previous explanation offered by Patrick, that this compound could be hepatoxic, due to it's androgenic properties. Not to mention, think of all the people who use this in post cycle therapy. Could this explain the gyno issues many people seem to be experiencing?

i doubt its very hepatotoxic. it does not look like it is a very strong steroid.



If this is what is in the ALRI stuff then its a case of them overlooking the androgenic potential of the product. Personally i did not expect it to be listed in Vida with having this much activity, i always thought the 4,6-dienes were inactive

i really doubt they snuck it in there knowingly. they probably thought all it did was block aromatase - there was some indication that 4,6-dienes have some anti-aromatase activity (i saw the dione mentioned in a patent)

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Really? Subjectively they seem very different.

I remember being really amazed with the old stuff (energy, mood elevation bordering on uncontrollable smiling). New stuff provides energy but the mood elevation is gone. I never even paid attention to the label changes but had just assumed there was a formula change.

Perhaps I just built-up a tolerance to the mood elevating effects.

i grew tolerant to the pills over time too

you should try clearshot though. for some reason it hits me like the amp used to

 

[bLacKjAck.]

I'm not sure how many of ALRIs products pass FDA inspection, as many are not DSHEA compliant. 6-bromo is synthetic (Restore), and according to Patrick, ATD is not in the food source, so methylated ATD is ABSOLUTELY not in the food source. If ADED is a metabolite of ATD, I'm not sure how that could be in the food source either.

Also, if ALR doesn't allow Patrick to post his results, I'm pretty sure that would be more than enough to raise a reasonable suspicion about what is actually in the product.

I saw your post, and thought to myself I bet this kid is from BB, well turns out I went over there and searched your name...YEP!..just like I thought.

Dude, save your drama for your "home forum." And dont bring that bs over here. This whole thread is totally civil and doesn't need someone like you to try and stir up drama for no reason at all.


Thanks.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Patrick posted this below, and it is not on the bottle of JW new or old. His initial post listed a compound that was in the original JW's first run. He also stated if that is indeed the compound So lets just wait for the results ok ? Actually I will send him one of each bottle ( the pictures I posted earlier of the two labels ) he can test them both. There is just no reason to get heated up before Patrick has the results. No ALR doesnt have to agree to testing, but he sent Patrick and email right away asking for an address so he could have some JW shipped to him, so ALR is being very cordial about this. Actually I think he is quite flattered. And yes, We do care about you and every other member who has used JW, so please do not think we take this lightly. Ive used it too ! I have to say, if it really were what PA says than I am quite dissapointed in the gains I had, I would expect alot more muscle for that type of compound. Yep, ALR isnt going to tell reps what ADED is either, wanna know why ? Because if we were to leave the company we may run our mouth about privelaged information, I specifically asked him NOT to tell me things of this nature so I could not be accused in the future if we leave ALRI someday. ADED is ALR's baby, its up to him to share information with who he desires, no amount of me nagging him will change that, trust me, I have nagged enough for him to call me by the new nickname PITA ! Pain in the ASS !!!!! haha

Tell ya what, I will ship PA's package express even to make sure you can get the results even faster Hey, thats the best I can do for now !

you make me feel so guilty. now i wish i never started this whole thing

i just have a knack for stirring up alot of s*it i guess

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Oh yep, you are right, Sorry I missed that when answering. I know ALR would not be that careless with a product because just before JW's release he stopped making all PH products because of obvious reasons. He didnt want the heat at any cost. Now believe it or not, our products are often taken by FDA right off the line from the manufacturing plant so they can do whatever they want to with them, testing etc. They hold the whole lot and do not release it until they are completed, the lots are always released so this tells me alot. ALR is watched very closely because of the past. Actually I would be very shocked if PA finds what he thinks it is. Just to let you all know Patrick doesnt want to post the results, and I will have to get permission from ALR to do so, seeing how its his company and all.

if its what i think it is (and i am honestly hoping its not now) then i am sure it was unintentional

 

[SCDiesel23]

I saw your post, and thought to myself I bet this kid is from BB, well turns out I went over there and searched your name...YEP!..just like I thought.

Dude, save your drama for your "home forum." And dont bring that bs over here. This whole thread is totally civil and doesn't need someone like you to try and stir up drama for no reason at all.


Thanks.

Hey guy, go ahead and read my other posts in this thread, I'm not trying to stir up anything. Even at bb.com, I've never been one to openly bash a person or a company, and as FnF will be the first to tell you, I have stood behind them several times to quell such drama on other boards. If asking valid questions and expecting a response is "drama", then I think you need a reality check. I'll say what I want, and you won't do anything about it.

Thanks

 

[ShadowJack]

Taking a look at the chemical nomenclature here...

1st, from the most current label that FnF posted in ALR message to PA post:

17a-methyl-5a-dehydro-etiocholane-4,6-dien-3-one-17-ol

Taking out the "5a-dehydro" part just for a minute, leaves the following:

17a-methyl-etiocholane-4,6-dien-3-one-17-ol

Which is exactly the same compound that Patrick posted about that is in Vida. In other words, it is just another way of saying:

17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one

=================

Now back to the "5a-dehydro" part. 5a means it has a hydrogen atom at the 5-alpha position, just like Patrick posted earlier in this thread.

But what about "dehydro"? What does that mean? Dehydro means that there is a loss of a hydrogen atom.

So putting the two together, "5a-dehydro" , is a contradiction in terms. One means to add a H atom at the 5-alpha position and the other means a loss of an H atom. So these two terms cancel each other out, when listed in this order with this nomenclature.

 

[bLacKjAck.]

Hey guy, go ahead and read my other posts in this thread, I'm not trying to stir up anything. Even at bb.com, I've never been one to openly bash a person or a company, and as FnF will be the first to tell you, I have stood behind them several times to quell such drama on other boards. If asking valid questions and expecting a response is "drama", then I think you need a reality check. I'll say what I want, and you won't do anything about it.

Thanks

Umm, OK? I am scared? All I asked was don't stir up drama. Thats it, never said I was going to fight you. Lets not get sensitive bro. No harm intended, if you took it that way...sorry didn't mean it.

 

[SCDiesel23]

Umm, OK? I am scared? All I asked was don't stir up drama. Thats it, never said I was going to fight you. Lets not get sensitive bro. No harm intended, if you took it that way...sorry didn't mean it.

Fair enough, I never thought you were going to fight me, and I have no intentions of stirring up drama here, especially because it's where I come to get AWAY from the drama of other boards. I enjoy being a part of and learning from the intellectual conversations here, and no matter how this turns out, I will not bash ALR and still have a lot of respect for FnF and Viper (other ALRI reps too but these are the only two I have spoken with).

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Taking a look at the chemical nomenclature here...

1st, from the most current label that FnF posted in ALR message to PA post:



Taking out the "5a-dehydro" part just for a minute, leaves the following:

17a-methyl-etiocholane-4,6-dien-3-one-17-ol

Which is exactly the same compound that Patrick posted about that is in Vida. In other words, it is just another way of saying:

17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one

=================

Now back to the "5a-dehydro" part. 5a means it has a hydrogen atom at the 5-alpha position, just like Patrick posted earlier in this thread.

But what about "dehydro"? What does that mean? Dehydro means that there is a loss of a hydrogen atom.

So putting the two together, "5a-dehydro" , is a contradiction in terms. One means to add a H atom at the 5-alpha position and the other means a loss of an H atom. So these two terms cancel each other out, when listed in this order with this nomenclature.

its such relief to know there was another chemist on here that followed what i was saying

 

[bLacKjAck.]

Fair enough, I never thought you were going to fight me, and I have no intentions of stirring up drama here, especially because it's where I come to get AWAY from the drama of other boards. I enjoy being a part of and learning from the intellectual conversations here, and no matter how this turns out, I will not bash ALR and still have a lot of respect for FnF and Viper (other ALRI reps too but these are the only two I have spoken with).

Cool. It just seems when there is drama beginning from someone, you can go to BB and search their name, and bam there ya go, 1,000+ posts. The crazy thing is, I don't even think they try, its more of a sub-conscious thing.

But, your cool in my eyes...at least you realize it is drama-central

 

[FitnFirm]

if its what i think it is (and i am honestly hoping its not now) then i am sure it was unintentional

you make me feel so guilty. now i wish i never started this whole thing

i just have a knack for stirring up alot of s*it i guess

There is nothing to feel guilty about, you are doing a great justice to all involved, So far this is very civil, only at AM can this happen though :toofunny: I have 2 jobs, one to help promote the products, two- to support the people using our products. I care about the people so this is very important to get passed, we are also getting lab work done on several members as well who are using JW. So hopefully all the results will turn out good, if not Im sure ALR will take the proper procedures to correct anything needed.

 

[FitnFirm]

Taking a look at the chemical nomenclature here...

1st, from the most current label that FnF posted in ALR message to PA post:



Taking out the "5a-dehydro" part just for a minute, leaves the following:

17a-methyl-etiocholane-4,6-dien-3-one-17-ol

Which is exactly the same compound that Patrick posted about that is in Vida. In other words, it is just another way of saying:

17alpha-methyl-androst-4,6-dien-17beta-ol-3-one

=================

Now back to the "5a-dehydro" part. 5a means it has a hydrogen atom at the 5-alpha position, just like Patrick posted earlier in this thread.

But what about "dehydro"? What does that mean? Dehydro means that there is a loss of a hydrogen atom.

So putting the two together, "5a-dehydro" , is a contradiction in terms. One means to add a H atom at the 5-alpha position and the other means a loss of an H atom. So these two terms cancel each other out, when listed in this order with this nomenclature.

Ok I have two questions for you or Patrick. I dont understand something :

17a, doesnt A stand for alkyl here ? you guys keep writing ALPHA, I ask because one of the labels spells out alkyl.


5a-dehydro- ok so what is this you removed from the above ? what do you think this does for the compound? Or you think its just there to derail ?

What is the possibility that ALR actually stumbled on something no one else ever has ?

Thanks guys for the lesson I could never do chemistry for a living, as all this gives me a headache :lol:

 

[SCDiesel23]

Thanks guys for the lesson I could never do chemistry for a living, as all this gives me a headache :lol:

+1 to that, but honestly, by following some of the chemists posts, I have learned more about chemistry than I did when I was taking these classes in high school.

I do know that the "a" after 17 is alpha. The "alkyl" was used to describe what is now listed as "methyl" in the new label.

 

[FitnFirm]

+1 to that, but honestly, by following some of the chemists posts, I have learned more about chemistry than I did when I was taking these classes in high school.

I do know that the "a" after 17 is alpha. The "alkyl" was used to describe what is now listed as "methyl" in the new label.

Yes, but ALR says Alkyl's are Methyl's......... so I be confused even more, :think:

 

[SCDiesel23]

Yes, but ALR says Alkyl's are Methyl's......... so I be confused even more, :think:

Well actually methyls are alkyls, because alkyls can be things other than methyls, like ethyl, so it is my guess that ALR was using Alkyl interchangably with the word methyl on the older bottle.

 

[stxnas]

I don't know why, but all this nomenclature talk is exciting me, lol :run:

Seriously though, in lieu of recent activities/attitudes on AM I would like to say thanks to everybody involved for keeping it civil!

 

[bbgolfer]

VERY interesting... PA, would it be out of line to ask if there is a name for the chemical in question?

 

[whitedevil74]

Yep, ALR isnt going to tell reps what ADED is either, wanna know why ? Because if we were to leave the company we may run our mouth about privelaged information, I specifically asked him NOT to tell me things of this nature so I could not be accused in the future if we leave ALRI someday. ADED is ALR's baby, its up to him to share information with who he desires, no amount of me nagging him will change that, trust me, I have nagged enough for him to call me by the new nickname PITA ! Pain in the ASS !!!!! haha

I understand that ALR has a financial and even an intellectual interest in keeping his formula a secrete, but this simply is not allowed under the DSHEA. Yes he can have a proprietary formula but it still must list the ingredients under their common names. You and every customer has a legal right to know exactly what this chemical is. Consumers are not required to guess what they are putting in their bodies. I am not saying JW is good or bad, I have never used it so I can not comment about its effectiveness.

 

[bbgolfer]

whoops, double post.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Ok I have two questions for you or Patrick. I dont understand something :

17a, doesnt A stand for alkyl here ? you guys keep writing ALPHA, I ask because one of the labels spells out alkyl.


5a-dehydro- ok so what is this you removed from the above ? what do you think this does for the compound? Or you think its just there to derail ?

What is the possibility that ALR actually stumbled on something no one else ever has ?

Thanks guys for the lesson I could never do chemistry for a living, as all this gives me a headache :lol:

17a means 17alpha. alpha designates the three dimensional direction of the methyl group. alpha means it is heading away from you when you look at the steroid structure on paper

5alpha means the hydrogen at C5 is heading away also. however there can be no hydrogen at C5 because there is a double bond at 4,5. you can either have a double bond there or a hydrogen at C5. you cannot have both, because that would mean C5 is bonded to 5 different atoms. It can only bond to 4 (that is called valence, carbon has a valence of 4)

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Yes, but ALR says Alkyl's are Methyl's......... so I be confused even more, :think:

alkyl refers to any saturated hydrocarbon chain. saturated means single bonded

ch3 (methyl) is the simplest

CH2CH3 is ethyl

CH2CH2CH3 is propyl

etc etc

 

[Patrick Arnold]

VERY interesting... PA, would it be out of line to ask if there is a name for the chemical in question?

it has no special name

but i will give it one

6-dehydromethyltestosterone