(3b,5a,6a,25R)-Spirostan-3,6-diol

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Come on PA. Why do you come over here just to start trouble? Lead by example. You are a great innovator in our industry but consistently bashing other people's products (OPP lol) just to promote your own is awfully childish. No one comes and attacks you by how pointless and stupid your All-in-One product is. If you don't think Mass FX is good then thats fine. Other people do like it, so let it go, let people buy what they want to buy.

You really should stop using your fame and once respected intelligence to bully other companies. I mean it is obvious your accusations are pointless considering you wimped out on talking to the forensic toxicologist because you knew you were wrong. WRONNNNGGGGGGG. Then you tried pushing your redneck chemist on us to talk to him instead even though the accusation came from your mouth.
 
I think the point is that when you make a claim, and you cloak that claim in the legitimacy of "studies" and "science", others will expect you to back up and support that claim by actually presenting the research. This is entirely reasonable and justified. If the party making the claims decides not to present the evidence, fine, but in that case they forfeit all right to complain about others questioning the validity of their claims.

PA is familiar with the compound in question, and he has legitimate reasons to question it's efficacy. He's not pulling skepticism out of thin air (like he might do just to "start trouble"). If there are studies to the contrary, he wants to see them: "where is the facts about this stuff. where. someone show me where." AX has decided not to present the evidence, so they have no right to complain about PA's skepticism.
 
TeamSavage said:
so they have no right to complain about PA's skepticism.
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I would agree if he were doing it just to be nice and help everyone. But he does it to promote his own products. It is dirty business. He did the same thing to Epistane, tried to push it out of the way for his 3-ad to come out. Unfortunately he got OWNED by the forensic toxicologist and laid in the fetal position and cried himself to sleep over the fact he was wrong :hammer:
 
People complain about scam companies and bogus products and overhyped marketing... but then when somebody actually tries to objectively evaluate product claims using research, people complain about "starting trouble" and "attacking" a respected company or board member.

Well you really can't have it both ways. Truth and progress are born of contention and argument. Either you accept bogus claims and ignore science in order to have harmony, or you accept it when somebody questions the legitimacy of claims (even if they're made by respected, well-liked people) in order to have better, more effective products.
 
TeamSavage said:
People complain about scam companies and bogus products and overhyped marketing... but then when somebody actually tries to objectively evaluate product claims using research, people complain about "starting trouble" and "attacking" a respected company or board member.

Well you really can't have it both ways. Truth and progress are born of contention and argument. Either you accept bogus claims and ignore science in order to have harmony, or you accept it when somebody questions the legitimacy of claims (even if they're made by respected, well-liked people) in order to have better, more effective products.
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Which is waht I've been trying to say but you most definitely put it better than I could have or did.
 
LakeMountD said:
I would agree if he were doing it just to be nice and help everyone. But he does it to promote his own products. It is dirty business. He did the same thing to Epistane, tried to push it out of the way for his 3-ad to come out. Unfortunately he got OWNED by the forensic toxicologist and laid in the fetal position and cried himself to sleep over the fact he was wrong :hammer:
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I don't remember reading this one, got a link?
 
LakeMountD said:
I would agree if he were doing it just to be nice and help everyone. But he does it to promote his own products.
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He definitely is not doing it to be nice and help everyone. But you're wrong about his motives. PA goes after what he thinks are bullsh!t supps and shaky science like a golden retriever goes after a tennis ball. He can't help himself. The fact that he acts like a complete d!ck sometimes has no relevance on the validity of his arguments. Just like the fact that Dr. D is a helpful board member and genuinely nice human being has no relevance on the validity of his arguments.
 
I really do not post here often, but I read everything.
To me, It just seems that AX always overhypes most of the stuff they bring out. Because of this, AX often asks for this type of criticism. I understand what they do is to get the product known and make money, which is fine, but maybe if they went about it in a different way things would be different. AX really hypes up products, with no backing in my opinion. They really come out saying 'We've got this breakthrough ingredient, it's awesome, but you'll have to wait forever to get it and there isn't really backing on the product, but trust us it will make you look awesome and if you don't believe us just look at the logs, etc' OK

As far as mass fx / hd goes, I've tried both and experienced an all day pump feeling as well as ok gains.
 
Wow great post Neoborn guy. This should be read and re-read by everyone in this thread before posting :) and thinking of resolution.

neoborn said:
Here I Go Again For The Record

As per the same kind of thread that was started with ALRI and their Jungle Warfare, I am going on record yet again to say that no results will come of this, if y'all don't see the pattern you all seriously must be blind. I will quote again for you from the other thread:

How to create the perfect drama thread?

1. Make outrageous, outlandish, ambigous possibly could be true statement about product.

2. Create as much drama to attract all the queens on various forums.

3. Attract people who actually know chemistry to discuss / confuse the average sheep.

4. Do not state testing method in any kind of reasonable detail

5. Claim you cannot post results for fear of legal action

6. Thread carries on with people like Leonidas posting bvllsh!t content like "wow the weather here is really great" etc being totally off topic.

7. Thread dies

8. No replies, no responses from A) the OP B) Accused company C) Chemist guys.

9. Thread fades into the archive to never be ressurrected.

So all in all there you have it. Want me to post multiple cases where this happens and all with NO RESOLUTIONS to these matters cause I can?

Same old .....same old, same sh!t different pile.



Was there any disclosure as to the results of PA's findings with JW? Please show me, where the threads are and where the closure / coming clean is, cause I for one don't see them. It's nice to talk about how much PA's doing for the consumer but when do we ever get results / explanations / proof as to the findings? Are any of you more certain now, what exactly is in JW than before the PA hunt?

Please anyone / everyone please feel free to show me the post / links that set these all straight. Epi, JW, MassFX......anyone see a pattern in the hunt? I have see alot of talk from both sides with no conclusion.

Please anyone you just let me know if I'm way off the mark here? kthx.

P.S Pat stop playing good samaritan, you sir are a wolf in sheeps clothing. Truly.
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jeff k said:
I don't remember reading this one, got a link?
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It is somewhere in the steroids section. I think it is called CHAPTER 3: The conclusion or something like that. Basically PA was trying to rip Epistane saying it wasn't the chemical it was supposed to be so we had a PhD in forensic pharmacology to test it and it turned out to be 99.9% pure and WAS the correct chemical. He continued to bash it saying the doctor was wrong so we said we would pay the $500 for him to speak with him and he backed down.
 
TeamSavage said:
When a company makes claims about a product, and then says those claims are backed by studies, it is customary to cite the specific research in question (or at least give details) in order to justify those claims. But refusing to release information about the supporting research is essentially equivalent, in the eyes of the research-oriented consumer or skeptical chemist, to not having any supporting research.
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Bingo.
 
I hate seeing this bickering and mud slinging between competing companies. When 3-AD/11-oxo was on the horizon I knew it was just a matter of time. It makes all associated look unprofessional IMO. I'm a fan of both companies and I respect both Pat and Dr. D

The truth and knowledge must ALWAYS reach the consumer at all costs. There is nobody protecting us in this industry but ourselves and members who seek out accurate, legit information and research. I ran HD-X2 and was surprised by it. Libido jumped way up (due to libido enhancing ingredients) and I noticed effects that would normally have to be attributed to a slight increase in test. 6bromo is every bit as solid for test increase as 6oxo is. As for MassFX, I never tried it. I did however have a extremely LOW dose of finasteride (.2mg) stacked with the HD-X2. This, in theory, could lead to the same basic effects on test that MassFX could. Pat raises some interesting and hard to answer questions.

Questioning and Discussion is always good for the consumer. However, there are proper venues and ways to go about it.

Just remember, we arent on BB.com. Attacks, slams, and slanderous statements don't impress many of us as the way they might the 15 year olds at BB.com. :D We demand a bit more...
 
Personally I think you are wrong on this one. Competition of all kinds drive the market, including people saying either directly or indirectly "Our products are better than X's for <insert reason>." The motive of the person questioning the product as a competitor can be considered, as can their claims and requests for information, answered or not. It's all a part of the process.

Saying, "Let people buy what they want to buy" ignores two key points. 1) PA has no power or authority to stop people from buying any product, so they are still perfectly free to buy IBE and/or AX and/or Ergopharm all they want. 2) What they want to buy may in fact be infuenced by his points one way or another, and that is just as valid as them making decisions based on ad copy, any research that is mentioned or dug up independently, the phases of the moon, or anything else for that matter.

There is an easy way to refute the accusation: post the research to back the claims up. They don't want to or can't for whatever reason, that's something else the consumer can make their judgement on. But suggesting the questioning should stop seems more than a little off base. PA's motives may be far from pure, I couldn't care less because the question is valid coming from anyone. So AX can either post the research and shut him up or not post it and deal with the questions remaining. Either way supplement companies across the boards are going to have to deal with the fact that some consumers want to know and be able to research what they're putting into their bodies before a sale is made. Accomodate them or not. The logs will not satisfy such people and rightly so, they are not controlled research.

LakeMountD said:
Come on PA. Why do you come over here just to start trouble? Lead by example. You are a great innovator in our industry but consistently bashing other people's products (OPP lol) just to promote your own is awfully childish. No one comes and attacks you by how pointless and stupid your All-in-One product is. If you don't think Mass FX is good then thats fine. Other people do like it, so let it go, let people buy what they want to buy.

You really should stop using your fame and once respected intelligence to bully other companies. I mean it is obvious your accusations are pointless considering you wimped out on talking to the forensic toxicologist because you knew you were wrong. WRONNNNGGGGGGG. Then you tried pushing your redneck chemist on us to talk to him instead even though the accusation came from your mouth.
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Patrick Arnold said:
...its a shame that i have to educate AX consumers about their own products
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Maybe you should educate YOUR OWN consumers............

rxp1997 said:
...I am taking 11-oxo for cortisol control during my post-cycle therapy. if it indeed is the same as 3-AD, which needs post cycle therapy, I may be screwing things up. Could someone clear this up for me? Fortunately I am only on day 3, so it's early enough to change without consequences.
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CDB said:
Personally I think you are wrong on this one. Competition of all kinds drive the market, including people saying either directly or indirectly "Our products are better than X's for <insert reason>." The motive of the person questioning the product as a competitor can be considered, as can their claims and requests for information, answered or not. It's all a part of the process.

Saying, "Let people buy what they want to buy" ignores two key points. 1) PA has no power or authority to stop people from buying any product, so they are still perfectly free to buy IBE and/or AX and/or Ergopharm all they want. 2) What they want to buy may in fact be infuenced by his points one way or another, and that is just as valid as them making decisions based on ad copy, any research that is mentioned or dug up independently, the phases of the moon, or anything else for that matter.

There is an easy way to refute the accusation: post the research to back the claims up. They don't want to or can't for whatever reason, that's something else the consumer can make their judgement on. But suggesting the questioning should stop seems more than a little off base. PA's motives may be far from pure, I couldn't care less because the question is valid coming from anyone. So AX can either post the research and shut him up or not post it and deal with the questions remaining. Either way supplement companies across the boards are going to have to deal with the fact that some consumers want to know and be able to research what they're putting into their bodies before a sale is made. Accomodate them or not. The logs will not satisfy such people and rightly so, they are not controlled research.
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Don't get me wrong. I could care less what he does. I am just defending a company that I like, which is AX. I definitely feel that competition is good. Epistane and Havoc both continue to sell like crazy and probably more so now that there is more knowledge of both. What I don't like however, is someone doing it just to be a **** and doing it directly. There is nothing wrong with saying "Mine is better than yours" or "Ours is better because of this". But to completely trash another persons products with absolute bullcrap is not fair. PA is preaching this to mostly people that understand NOTHING about any chemistry, science, or scientific studies. I am not talking about a lot of the people who post here a lot, but this board mostly has guests that aren't even registered that you never hear from that read this stuff and they go on believing whatever it is they see.

It is more a matter of ethics than anything else and what "you" believe is wrong or wrong. I just wish everyone could walk around here with more class. I hate seeing people get picked on.
 
Zombie said:
hey your a rep. so only you can be part of the mudslinging ??




j/k you know i like you:D
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I was referring to the parties involved/in question, lol.

Carry on.

EDIT: Thank you to the mod that deleted those :thumbsup:
 
LakeMountD said:
Don't get me wrong. I could care less what he does. I am just defending a company that I like, which is AX. I definitely feel that competition is good. Epistane and Havoc both continue to sell like crazy and probably more so now that there is more knowledge of both. What I don't like however, is someone doing it just to be a **** and doing it directly. There is nothing wrong with saying "Mine is better than yours" or "Ours is better because of this". But to completely trash another persons products with absolute bullcrap is not fair. PA is preaching this to mostly people that understand NOTHING about any chemistry, science, or scientific studies. I am not talking about a lot of the people who post here a lot, but this board mostly has guests that aren't even registered that you never hear from that read this stuff and they go on believing whatever it is they see.

It is more a matter of ethics than anything else and what "you" believe is wrong or wrong. I just wish everyone could walk around here with more class. I hate seeing people get picked on.
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It is true that many of us reading this don't know the intricacies of steroid chemistry. We do, however, have a pretty good read on when we're being bull****ted.

If the claims that PA is making are so blatantly false, then why have they not been refuted? Instead, people just say he's drumming up business, bashing competitors, etc. What we do get is "the studies are there, but we won't let you see them", and "just look at the logs, it works". That is bull**** and you know it.

So what this comes down to is that some people have an issue with "their" favorite company getting outted in public. I never had an issue with AX until I started seeing how they operate - they'll hype a product but when asked about how it works, or why it works, they say "check the logs", or "the studies are proprietary".

Whether you like or hate PA, he's very clearly one of the fathers of this industry, and Ergopharm's quality has never been a problem as far as I have seen. I'd much rather buy a product from a company that synthesizes it in the US, tests it in the US, and does so under US rules rather than one that imports it, takes another company's word for what's in it, but charges a bit less.

To me, the issue is, and has been, where are the studies to back up the outrageous claims made in AX product marketing materials? AX is certainly being targeted, they're one of the most blatant offenders at the moment in terms of hyping without backing up the hype (short of "check the logs").

And Dr. D, if you've answered these same allegations so many times before, how come no one can seem to find them?
 
jeff k said:
I'd much rather buy a product from a company that synthesizes it in the US, tests it in the US, and does so under US rules rather than one that imports it, takes another company's word for what's in it, but charges a bit less.
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WHERE ARE THESE TESTS?
 
LakeMountD said:
I would agree if he were doing it just to be nice and help everyone. But he does it to promote his own products. It is dirty business. He did the same thing to Epistane, tried to push it out of the way for his 3-ad to come out. Unfortunately he got OWNED by the forensic toxicologist and laid in the fetal position and cried himself to sleep over the fact he was wrong :hammer:
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i don't do it to promote my own products

you keep saying that to discredit the things i say

i attacked stuff before i ever got into the industry, i attack stuff now, and i wil attack it after i retire. till my deathbed
 
LakeMountD said:
Come on PA. Why do you come over here just to start trouble? Lead by example. You are a great innovator in our industry but consistently bashing other people's products (OPP lol) just to promote your own is awfully childish. No one comes and attacks you by how pointless and stupid your All-in-One product is. If you don't think Mass FX is good then thats fine. Other people do like it, so let it go, let people buy what they want to buy.

You really should stop using your fame and once respected intelligence to bully other companies. I mean it is obvious your accusations are pointless considering you wimped out on talking to the forensic toxicologist because you knew you were wrong. WRONNNNGGGGGGG. Then you tried pushing your redneck chemist on us to talk to him instead even though the accusation came from your mouth.
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matt did the testing, he needs to be on the phone to discuss the results
 
LakeMountD said:
It is somewhere in the steroids section. I think it is called CHAPTER 3: The conclusion or something like that. Basically PA was trying to rip Epistane saying it wasn't the chemical it was supposed to be so we had a PhD in forensic pharmacology to test it and it turned out to be 99.9% pure and WAS the correct chemical. He continued to bash it saying the doctor was wrong so we said we would pay the $500 for him to speak with him and he backed down.
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tiny forgotten details

i asked that matt my chemist who did the testing be on the phone. lake refused

i asked that the conversation be done by email instead, so everyone could access the transcript of the conversation. that way there could be no discrepancies in the reporting of what took place. lake refused

i told him i was sick of the BS and that he obviously was not interested in getting to the truth
 
So here we go again.Cheap publicity at the expense of others reputations.Or am I misreading the nobel intentions here.:think: This is just the same M.O. as weve seen in the past : pity though.

All I can say is I have nothing but respect for AX and the crew and their supp line.And even though youre playing games again Pat,those of us who follow integrity and character will still be using AX products long after this little **** slinging fest is forgotten about.

So carry on til you find someone else who you "feel the need" to save us from (I mean discredit)
 
I don't get all this PA vs AX is wrong. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't attacking your competition, credibly of course, just about standard practice in every industry??

For all those who think companies in one industry should hold hands and sing Koom Bi Yah, perhaps you should rethink what you want to do for a living.
 
Face it AX, PA owns ya'll in this argument. Even Dr. D, who I have a tremendous amount of respect for, will not answer the basic question of how the primary ingredient of MFX works. I am now trying to figure out what to do with the bottle of MFX I recently purchased. I am probably going to stack it with EPI and Tbol during my current pulse cycle and see if it potentiates my anabolics.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i was hardly owned. most would agree that he was owned
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So by most do you mean : as determined by an independantly owned and operated third party statistical/polling company or just in your head.:D
 
mmowry said:
So here we go again.Cheap publicity at the expense of others reputations.Or am I misreading the nobel intentions here.:think: This is just the same M.O. as weve seen in the past : pity though.

All I can say is I have nothing but respect for AX and the crew and their supp line.And even though youre playing games again Pat,those of us who follow integrity and character will still be using AX products long after this little **** slinging fest is forgotten about.

So carry on til you find someone else who you "feel the need" to save us from (I mean discredit)
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listen closely


If i see a competitor of mine lying to the consumer about something than i will not hesitate to call that competitor out.

And i would expect, no i would DEMAND, that my competitor do the same to me

Is that not a good thing? Keep each other honest? I would think consumers would support that


Or should i join the "club of liars" in this industry, that follow the unspoken code of "if you don't tip off everyone how i am deceiving them then i promise not to tip them off about you"?
 
RBKing said:
Face it AX, PA owns ya'll in this argument. Even Dr. D, who I have a tremendous amount of respect for, will not answer the basic question of how the primary ingredient of MFX works. I am now trying to figure out what to do with the bottle of MFX I recently purchased. I am probably going to stack it with EPI and Tbol during my current pulse cycle and see if it potentiates my anabolics.
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I have to agree. With PA bringing up certain issues reguarding the effectiveness of these given supplements, I do not have any intent on making any AX purchases until this alleged study is completed.....and no, just because someone else says its 'good sh-t' does not convince me enough.
 
Giantz11 said:
I don't get all this PA vs AX is wrong. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't attacking your competition, credibly of course, just about standard practice in every industry??

For all those who think companies in one industry should hold hands and sing Koom Bi Yah, perhaps you should rethink what you want to do for a living.
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Look at the track record of where,when,why and how these threads just coincidentaly unfold and tell me if you see a consumer advocate or a good,yet dirty marketeer? Because if theres enough dirty thrown at 1 product or company another with a similar product could potentially take the market share.At least until people figured out the game that they are pawns in.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i don't do it to promote my own products

you keep saying that to discredit the things i say

i attacked stuff before i ever got into the industry, i attack stuff now, and i wil attack it after i retire. till my deathbed
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Right. It just so happened you came out with a competing product a month after bashing ours for 4 months straight.

Why don't we attack your Stamin O2 product for charging people $40 for a product that contains only citrulline malate or maybe bash 6-oxo for being inferior to the newer ingredients like 6-bromo? We could easily go on all the boards and just start bashing it, but there is no reason for us to do that nor do we care to.

PA, again you say you do it because thats what you do. I have yet to see you complain on here about ANY Muscle Tech or Klein Becker products. You are telling me you just so happened to attack 25r-diol randomly? No you chose it because it directly competes with you.
 
mmowry said:
Look at the track record of where,when,why and how these threads just coincidentaly unfold and tell me if you see a consumer advocate or a good,yet dirty marketeer? Because if theres enough dirty thrown at 1 product or company another with a similar product could potentially take the market share.At least until people figured out the game that they are pawns in.
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Throwing dirty may indeed be true, but simply refuting those allegations would be all that was required if they were unfounded. That's not what's happening though. Us consumers have seen nothing but broscience from AX. If you think PA is wrong, or if his conclusions are unfounded, then refute them with credible arguments and I think that would go a long way...
 
Patrick Arnold said:
listen closely


If i see a competitor of mine lying to the consumer about something than i will not hesitate to call that competitor out.

And i would expect, no i would DEMAND, that my competitor do the same to me

Is that not a good thing? Keep each other honest? I would think consumers would support that


Or should i join the "club of liars" in this industry, that follow the unspoken code of "if you don't tip off everyone how i am deceiving them then i promise not to tip them off about you"?
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You didn't do that with us. You attacked Epistane without having ALL of the facts. You attempted to damage our company only to realize we had the right ingredient all along. We never got an apology or anything. You just continued on screaming bull$hit because you had too much pride to say you were wrong. You can be as smart as Hawking, but if you can't admit you are wrong when you are wrong then you are ignorant. Even Einstein and Hawking admitted when they were wrong. Although you aren't on the same level as them you are an intelligent guy and would reflect greater on you if you did. But that is how we knew you were doing it maliciously.
 
PumpingIron said:
Quick question...why isn't anyone looking at all of Ergo's products right now and trying to pick them apart...???
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This is a free country and PA is ALLOWED to voice his opinions. Deal with it doggie. If you want to pick apart at Ergopharm go ahead, no one is stopping you. Everyone needs to quit being so f_cking sensative and defensive.

I feel like everyone does not want to admit there might be a slight glitch in the effectiveness in a product and YES YOU MIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY WASTED YOUR MONEY ON IT. There is a difference between being a smart consumer and being a stupid consumer.
 
ReaperX said:
PI-


If there is not any credible study to prove MFX is effective are you going to backpedel again ?
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You really need to grow up. I've already stated in this thread that I enjoyed the effects of MassFX.

And I've already commented on you saying I backpedeled on CEE when in reality I didn't.

Honestly, kid, you have issues.
 
ReaperX said:
This is a free country and PA is ALLOWED to voice his opinions. Deal with it doggie. If you want to pick apart at Ergopharm go ahead, no one is stopping you. Everyone needs to quit being so f_cking sensative and defensive.

I feel like everyone does not want to admit there might be a slight glitch in the effectiveness in a product and YES YOU MIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY WASTED YOUR MONEY ON IT. There is a difference between being a smart consumer and being a stupid consumer.
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I think you missed the point. AGAIN.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
kind of wish they would

the discrepancy in responses would be very eye opening
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I agree, and I don't see why some people are always on the defensive and never the offensive.

I think Giantz said it earlier that all industry is somewhat like this. That it is not all love for your fellow company.

I guess I'm jsut slow or something.
 
LakeMountD said:
Right. It just so happened you came out with a competing product a month after bashing ours for 4 months straight.

Why don't we attack your Stamin O2 product for charging people $40 for a product that contains only citrulline malate or maybe bash 6-oxo for being inferior to the newer ingredients like 6-bromo? We could easily go on all the boards and just start bashing it, but there is no reason for us to do that nor do we care to.

PA, again you say you do it because thats what you do. I have yet to see you complain on here about ANY Muscle Tech or Klein Becker products. You are telling me you just so happened to attack 25r-diol randomly? No you chose it because it directly competes with you.
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i did it because i got tons of questions about whether people should stack 11-oxo with it or take it after a cycle of 11-oxo.

so i checked it out

maybe it does compete, maybe it does not. what you fail to understand is that does not make the points any less valid.

if a competitor wants to trash a competing product of mine then fine. i will defend it with facts, not ***** that i am being picked on like a child
 
I just finished reading copies of three full-text studies and 6-oxo metabolises into 6a-hydroxy-androstenedione and 6a-hydroxy-testosterone. It does not convert into Androstenedione. As I suspected, and why I posted earlier that 6-oxo likely converts to 6-OH-test.
 
PumpingIron said:
Quick question...why isn't anyone looking at all of Ergo's products right now and trying to pick them apart...???
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Check out the write-up on ErgoPharm's website for 11-OXO:
Invalid Link Removed

Now THAT is a write-up. It explains exactly how 11-OXO works in detail. There aren't studies cited, but you can be certain they exist just waiting to be presented.

Who wants to pick that apart?
 
jeff k said:
... And Dr. D, if you've answered these same allegations so many times before, how come no one can seem to find them?
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It was a debate between BK and I about 6-Br. The thread was called "Pimp that AI" or something to that effect, on bb.com. I answered all these questions and then some.
 
LakeMountD said:
You didn't do that with us. You attacked Epistane without having ALL of the facts. You attempted to damage our company only to realize we had the right ingredient all along. We never got an apology or anything. You just continued on screaming bull$hit because you had too much pride to say you were wrong. You can be as smart as Hawking, but if you can't admit you are wrong when you are wrong then you are ignorant. Even Einstein and Hawking admitted when they were wrong. Although you aren't on the same level as them you are an intelligent guy and would reflect greater on you if you did. But that is how we knew you were doing it maliciously.
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epistane did not have the right ingredient IMO. I have never wavered on that.

you apparently have deceived yourself into thinking you did. And somehow deceived yourself into thinking that i believed the same.
 
TeamSavage said:
Check out the write-up on ErgoPharm's website for 11-OXO:
Invalid Link Removed

Now THAT is a write-up. It explains exactly how 11-OXO works in detail. There aren't studies cited, but you can be certain they exist just waiting to be presented.

Who wants to pick that apart?
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Never saw it...Nice...Guess that answers that question huh?

Haha...
 
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