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I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

kbayne said:
No problem.
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On an unrelated note...your avatar makes mine look mega weak lol. Need to update my pic, that is from about 1.5 years ago.

And I can't believe I've gone through 8 tubs of Fearn already....
 
Saw this on the front page today, and a little confused on what it might mean in relation to mTOR activation through PA, as we've been doing here:

anabolicminds.com/articles/lean-but-not-hungry-molecular-switch-for-a-healthy-metabolism-discovered-17339/

The protein complex mTORC1 is a central regulator of cell metabolism. In the active state, it stimulates anabolic processes and increases the production and storage of proteins and lipids. Researchers from the German Leibniz Institute for Age Research in Jena and the Dutch Ageing Institute ERIBA in Groningen discovered a mechanism how mTORC1 regulates metabolism: It controls the expression of a specific variant of the transcriptional regulator C/EBPβ. Elimination of this variant in mice results in a healthy metabolism, leanness and improved insulin sensitivity. The study may provide a basis for novel strategies for the treatment of metabolic diseases such as obesity and type II diabetes.

The mTORC1 (mammalian target of rapamycin complex 1) is a central regulator of cell metabolism and its activity is regulated by nutrient availability and growth signals. If activated, it stimulates anabolic metabolism and enhanced production of proteins and lipids. The resulting increase in biomass is a prerequisite for tissue growth. Hyper-activation of mTORC1 by overfeeding may result in obesity and is believed to promote metabolic disorders such as type II diabetes. In contrast, a calorie restricted diet decreases mTORC1 activity. This improves metabolic health and increases life span in many species up to mammals. Many researchers have focused on mTORC1 function during the past years because of its crucial role in metabolism. However, little is known about factors that are specifically controlled by mTORC1 and that are responsible for the regulation of genes that are important for metabolic adjustments.

Now, researchers from Leibniz Institute for Age Research -- Fritz Lipmann Institute (FLI) in Jena, Germany, and European Research Institute for the Biology of Ageing (ERIBA) in Groningen, Netherlands, found a mechanism through which mTORC1 regulates metabolic processes. The research results were published in the journal EMBO Reports.

Switching on and off metabolic gene transcription

"Researchers already know a lot about how mTORC1 is activated by nutrient supply. But little is known about the downstream factors that regulate metabolic genes and thereby determine the metabolic state of an organism," Prof. Dr. Cornelis Calkhoven (ERIBA), former group leader at FLI, explains. A main function of mTORC1 is the stimulation of mRNA translation, which is the crucial and final process in gene expression that results in production of the biologically active proteins. "We now found a factor -- C/EBPβ -- which is controlled by mTORC1," Calkhoven continues. C/EBPβ is a gene regulator that controls various metabolic genes. Within cells, there exist two kinds of C/EBPβ: the long variant is a gene activator, whereas the short variant suppresses genes.

"Our data show that mTORC1 specifically promotes the formation of the short variant of C/EBPβ," Dr. Christine Müller (ERIBA), former researcher at FLI, states. The researchers used a mouse model in which a mutation in the C/EBPβ gene prevents the production of the short C/EBPβ variant even if mTORC1 is activated. "Intriguingly, our data show that mice with this mutation display an improved metabolic phenotype, including reduced fat metabolism and fat accumulation, and improved insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance," Dr. Laura Zidek, Postdoc at FLI, emphasizes the findings.

Healthy metabolism

"The healthy metabolic phenotype we observed in our mouse model is similar to what is found under calorie restriction," Calkhoven explains. Interestingly, these positive effects can be achieved without reduction in food intake: the mice are lean but sated.

"Our study shows that the mechanism regulating the formation of C/EBPβ variants is an important molecular switch in the metabolic pathway controlled by mTORC1. Thus, pharmacological targeting of C/EBPβ isoform expression may provide a promising strategy for the treatment of metabolic diseases such as obesity and type II diabetes thereby extending health span.

Story Source:

The above post is reprinted from materials provided by Leibniz Institute for Age Research – Fritz Lipmann Institute. Note: Materials may be edited for content and length.

Journal Reference:

L. M. Zidek, T. Ackermann, G. Hartleben, S. Eichwald, G. Kortman, M. Kiehntopf, A. Leutz, N. Sonenberg, Z.-Q. Wang, J. von Maltzahn, C. Muller, C. F. Calkhoven. Deficiency in mTORC1-controlled C/EBP -mRNA translation improves metabolic health in mice. EMBO reports, 2015; DOI: 10.15252/embr.201439837
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Does mTORC1 as discussed above = the same mTOR we've been discussing in this thread? And if so, why does the study seem to suggest that suppression of mTOR (to achieve a reduction in short C/EBPβ production) is desirable for a healthy metabolism, especially given that all the anecdotal evidence in this thread suggests that mTOR activation via PA leads to lean gains and fat loss? I do my best to read and research, but I have zero background in molecular biology. My understanding gleaned mainly from this board has always been that mTOR activation is a good thing, and was unaware that there was any sort of link to the negative obesity and diabetes effects mentioned above, or even that there were different mTOR complexes. Can someone shed some knowledge?
 
warpyfunch said:
Saw this on the front page today, and a little confused on what it might mean in relation to mTOR activation through PA, as we've been doing here:

anabolicminds.com/articles/lean-but-not-hungry-molecular-switch-for-a-healthy-metabolism-discovered-17339/



Does mTORC1 as discussed above = the same mTOR we've been discussing in this thread? And if so, why does the study seem to suggest that suppression of mTOR (to achieve a reduction in short C/EBPβ production) is desirable for a healthy metabolism, especially given that all the anecdotal evidence in this thread suggests that mTOR activation via PA leads to lean gains and fat loss? I do my best to read and research, but I have zero background in molecular biology. My understanding gleaned mainly from this board has always been that mTOR activation is a good thing, and was unaware that there was any sort of link to the negative obesity and diabetes effects mentioned above, or even that there were different mTOR complexes. Can someone shed some knowledge?
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to make it very short.
1. Dont need to overthinking:)
2. mTORC1 is "made" by mTOR and has many functions same as mTOR such as increasing proteinsynthesis etc.
3: Ofcourse there is some negatives increasing mTOR but do you want gains or do you want to drop everything that is anabolic (even food) just because it can increase the risk of cancer ,diabetes etc :)
 
Danes said:
to make it very short.
1. Dont need to overthinking:)
2. mTORC1 is "made" by mTOR and has many functions same as mTOR such as increasing proteinsynthesis etc.
3: Ofcourse there is some negatives increasing mTOR but do you want gains or do you want to drop everything that is anabolic (even food) just because it can increase the risk of cancer ,diabetes etc :)
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1. I overthink everything. It's a significant problem for me, haha.

3. Yes, I want to increase lean mass, but I was just surprised to read about the metabolic damage caused by mTORC1. My goals are to increase lean mass, but also to lose fat and maintain a healthy metabolism and overall health. I was under the impression that increasing lean mass usually also improves metabolism, however the article is worded such that it seems like anabolic metabolism is in direct opposition to what they're calling 'metabolic health,' and makes it sound like mTOR activation causes fat gain, which I don't believe anyone is experiencing here with PA supplementation.

So, questions... the article talks about mTORC1 'hyper-activation.' Does usage of PA in the way we've been doing it here qualify as 'hyper-activation' as in the context of this study?

How can it be explained that we're all seeing recomp effects if mTOR activation leads to metabolic damage as claimed?

Just a completely uneducated guess... the study seems to work on the assumption that mTOR hyper-activation is solely caused by excessive calories (overfeeding), which is known to cause obesity and type 2 diabetes. By using PA to activate mTOR, we are triggering that mTOR activation without increasing overall calories by much, if at all, thus dodging at least some of the negative metabolic effects discussed while still gaining the anabolic benefits.

Perhaps the gene suppression caused by higher short C/EBPβ production makes one more prone to these negative metabolic effects, but that those effects still require excessive calories to manifest? Or am I way off base?
 
warpyfunch said:
1. I overthink everything. It's a significant problem for me, haha.

3. Yes, I want to increase lean mass, but I was just surprised to read about the metabolic damage caused by mTORC1. My goals are to increase lean mass, but also to lose fat and maintain a healthy metabolism and overall health. I was under the impression that increasing lean mass usually also improves metabolism, however the article is worded such that it seems like anabolic metabolism is in direct opposition to what they're calling 'metabolic health,' and makes it sound like mTOR activation causes fat gain, which I don't believe anyone is experiencing here with PA supplementation.

So, questions... the article talks about mTORC1 'hyper-activation.' Does usage of PA in the way we've been doing it here qualify as 'hyper-activation' as in the context of this study?

How can it be explained that we're all seeing recomp effects if mTOR activation leads to metabolic damage as claimed?

Just a completely uneducated guess... the study seems to work on the assumption that mTOR hyper-activation is solely caused by excessive calories (overfeeding), which is known to cause obesity and type 2 diabetes. By using PA to activate mTOR, we are triggering that mTOR activation without increasing overall calories by much, if at all, thus dodging at least some of the negative metabolic effects discussed while still gaining the anabolic benefits.

Perhaps the gene suppression caused by higher short C/EBPβ production makes one more prone to these negative metabolic effects, but that those effects still require excessive calories to manifest? Or am I way off base?
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Over feeding actually causes metabolism to become inefficient. What that means is that metabolism is actually ramped up meaning that we tend to burn more calories. The negative to over feeding is the impact on insulin sensitivity as you are spiking insulin much more frequently. This however is countered by GLUT4 up regulation along with many other changes in the body from training.
 
This has probably been mentioned already but I'm about to step out and was looking for a quick answer.

I just started using the fearn SL. Should I be taking it every day or just training days?
 
jwsnowman said:
This has probably been mentioned already but I'm about to step out and was looking for a quick answer.

I just started using the fearn SL. Should I be taking it every day or just training days?
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Go everyday.
 
Little update. I stopped PA and once I did wow! I pissed like crazy for about 3 days. Realized how it got me a bit bloated and held water.
 
halfhuman said:
Ran it for 10 weeks and next day the pissing started and lasted for about 3 days. Literally all day pissing non stop lol
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Odd. I've only had a two day period off PA but didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.

Did you notice any drop in body weight/increased vascularity/reduced bloat from shedding water after those 3 days?
 
kboxer7 said:
Odd. I've only had a two day period off PA but didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.

Did you notice any drop in body weight/increased vascularity/reduced bloat from shedding water after those 3 days?
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Weight went down about a pound and a half. Yea my stomach looked less bloated and a bit more vascular. While on it I looked fuller not much of a difference but I def could see it.
 
halfhuman said:
Weight went down about a pound and a half. Yea my stomach looked less bloated and a bit more vascular. While on it I looked fuller not much of a difference but I def could see it.
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Try next time PA caps such as phospha Muscle (double dose) :)
 
halfhuman said:
Weight went down about a pound and a half. Yea my stomach looked less bloated and a bit more vascular. While on it I looked fuller not much of a difference but I def could see it.
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Interesting. I'm about out of my last can of SL before a re-order. Maybe I'll take a good 3-4 days off and see what happens before starting back up.
 
You can give it a try and see. But remember I ran it for 10 weeks non stop. So I'm not sure if it'll be the same after just 4 weeks or so.

If you do keep us posted.
 
halfhuman said:
Little update. I stopped PA and once I did wow! I pissed like crazy for about 3 days. Realized how it got me a bit bloated and held water.
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Were you running an AI during this? Maybe that may explain some drying out symptoms you were experiencing.
 
kdubson14 said:
But not as many! ... yea I just threw all 5 into a smoothie
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I disagree. PA ramps up mTOR regardless of the presence of physical stressors as shown by research...and, we re-build muscle outside of the gym, not in it. So even though physical stressors will result in greater mTOR activation, taking PA even on a non-lifting day will aid in recovery and nitrogen retention.
 
kboxer7 said:
I disagree. PA ramps up mTOR regardless of the presence of physical stressors as shown by research...and, we re-build muscle outside of the gym, not in it. So even though physical stressors will result in greater mTOR activation, taking PA even on a non-lifting day will aid in recovery and nitrogen retention.
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Well put sir
 
kdubson14 said:
It's more effective pre-wo due to the production of enzymes during training that convert PA and PS into LPA, no?
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Yes, but it increases mTOR regardless. Granted to a greater extent if taken before exercise.

However, dividing the doses both pre + post as halfhuman suggests, may in fact activate mTOR for an extended period of time. It should also be noted that the main study we all quote split the doses of the test subjects.
 
May try splitting pre and with my first meal ~1 hr post then. Fwiw, 5 tbsp pre since 11/14 has treated me well.

Has there been any new research regarding PA? I haven't really followed this thread since early this year
 
kdubson14 said:
May try splitting pre and with my first meal ~1 hr post then. Fwiw, 5 tbsp pre since 11/14 has treated me well.

Has there been any new research regarding PA? I haven't really followed this thread since early this year
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Nice man. I haven't seen any new research come out as of yet.

Personally I've adjusted to 2 tbsp AM with breakfast to ramp up mTOR after all night with no food and a catabolic state. Then I do 3 tbsp pre, and 2 post workout. Been treating me well also. I don't feel like my summer recomp would have gone the same without it.
 
tyga tyga said:
Lol you didn't go "catabolic" over night
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Well not really a "catabolic state." Bad terminology on my part rather an "unfed" state for xx hours (assuming no slow digesting proteins taken before bed...which I know is largely debatable if needed anyway).

Point is, I like to do what I can to ramp up mTOR first thing AM. I workout at night so aiding recovery first thing AM is on my list of priorities. Just sayin
 
I've not had the chance to properly go through this thread, but in summary is PA worth taking? I've read good things, and can be bought very cheaply it seems... a no brainer? Any side effects or things to watch out for?
 
Johnston said:
I've not had the chance to properly go through this thread, but in summary is PA worth taking? I've read good things, and can be bought very cheaply it seems... a no brainer? Any side effects or things to watch out for?
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Overall consensus is that its worth it. Most that go bulk are using Fearn Soy Granuals. Even as a general health supp its great.

Only sides I've seen are the possibility of gastro distress with large doses (doesn't affect everyone...I take up to 5 tbsp at a time and am fine). Other than that a few have noted increased water weight / bloating but that is few and far between.

Acute benefits are a solid pump, endurance comes on fairly fast (1st week), and within 1-2 weeks a notable increase in muscle fullness and size. After running a month or two at good doses I noticed a nice recomping effect, fat loss and improved vascularity. The fat loss may be due to the Choline in SL.

Hope that helps
 
Excellent, thank you :). I'll definitely try it out. Do you need to cycle it? Is there an optimal time to take, empty stomach etc?

I've seen a few brands on Amazon of the Lecithin granuals, all similar to each other, so I'm guessing they are much of a muchness providing the PA content is the same?
 
Johnston said:
Excellent, thank you :). I'll definitely try it out. Do you need to cycle it? Is there an optimal time to take, empty stomach etc?

I've seen a few brands on Amazon of the Lecithin granuals, all similar to each other, so I'm guessing they are much of a muchness providing the PA content is the same?
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For the most part PA content is going to be the same. No company, regardless of their label gives you the exact amount in the SL. Rather there is a somewhat standardized amt that is present in all SL granuals. The two most popular brands have been Optima and Fearn. But feel free to test out others.

No need to take on an empty stomach but doing so isn't an issue either.

Best time to take is pre workout as exercise stress increases the effectivness of PA and in turn enhances mTOR activation. While lower doses are effective, most are at 4 tbsp on average, going up to 5.

The popular study done on PA split the doses, so I usually do 2-3 tbs pre and 2 post.

Oh and no need to cycle. Those who have come off of it typically notice a decrease in endurance and loss of some water weight from nitrogen retention in muscles.

A good litmus test imo to see if its working is to track your weight the 1st two weeks. You should see about a 2lb give or take a bit increase without a change in your diet due to nitrogen retention.
 
kboxer7 said:
Overall consensus is that its worth it. Most that go bulk are using Fearn Soy Granuals. Even as a general health supp its great.

Only sides I've seen are the possibility of gastro distress with large doses (doesn't affect everyone...I take up to 5 tbsp at a time and am fine). Other than that a few have noted increased water weight / bloating but that is few and far between.

Acute benefits are a solid pump, endurance comes on fairly fast (1st week), and within 1-2 weeks a notable increase in muscle fullness and size. After running a month or two at good doses I noticed a nice recomping effect, fat loss and improved vascularity. The fat loss may be due to the Choline in SL.

Hope that helps
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Your a better man than me kboxer because I didn't feel like doing it lol.

Nice recap btw.
 
ELROCK said:
Your a better man than me kboxer because I didn't feel like doing it lol.

Nice recap btw.
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lol thanks. Decided to take one for the team
 
Just had to add that I really like the bulk PA/lecethin granules. Just bought another LB at the local health food store.

After a week or two at 4-5 tsp/day muscles felt fuller and pump during workouts was better. Pump lasted alot longer, but was "different" than a regular preworkout drink pump, it felt "deeper" and I just felt bigger and added a lb or 2 of bodyweight. Does stack great with PWO drinks though!

Prob my favorite natty supplement thus far!
 
kboxer7 said:
lol thanks. Decided to take one for the team
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Lol, I appreciate it... I've done it myself before, but I think it can be useful sometimes on such a lengthy thread, for someone just coming in to it, trying to find out all the info. Ideally you'd want a post up front of the thread summarising it all, but that's not always possible when it snowballs as this one has. Thanks again though. :)
 
Johnston said:
Lol, I appreciate it... I've done it myself before, but I think it can be useful sometimes on such a lengthy thread, for someone just coming in to it, trying to find out all the info. Ideally you'd want a post up front of the thread summarising it all, but that's not always possible when it snowballs as this one has. Thanks again though. :)
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No problem man. Glad to help.
 
Just picked up my 6 tubs of fearn lecithin graunles, gonna be stacking with whats left of my Viron, Alphamax, and ARA.

Gonna start at 3 Tbs (1.8g PA) but overtime bump up to 2.4 and then 3. is this an ok starting point for maybe 2-3 weeks..?

most people start much lower but I don't really see the point if you can run at a full dose (3g)

:D also does timing really matter when it comes to this? I understand its supposed to be split up yes, but I mean timing? I would probably take 2 tbs upon waking and 1 pre workout (5pm) or around there.
 
iThrow said:
Just picked up my 6 tubs of fearn lecithin graunles, gonna be stacking with whats left of my Viron, Alphamax, and ARA.

Gonna start at 3 Tbs (1.8g PA) but overtime bump up to 2.4 and then 3. is this an ok starting point for maybe 2-3 weeks..?

most people start much lower but I don't really see the point if you can run at a full dose (3g)

:D also does timing really matter when it comes to this? I understand its supposed to be split up yes, but I mean timing? I would probably take 2 tbs upon waking and 1 pre workout (5pm) or around there.
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Best time to take is pre workout as exercise stress increases the effectivness of PA and in turn enhances mTOR activation. While lower doses are effective, most are at 4 tbsp on average, going up to 5. Starting lower if so desired is up to you.

The popular study done on PA split the doses, so I usually do 2-3 tbs pre and 2 post.

Personally if you are going to split the doses the way you mentioned, I'd take the largest dose pre-workout.
 
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