Guest viewing limit reached
  • You have reached the maximum number of guest views allowed
  • Please register below to remove this limitation

All aboard the Betaine train.

Jiigzz said:
No research background on the topic? Really?

Enlighten me o Betaine god.

The toxiological bell curve was a joke, but performance studues show 2.5g to be the mark in which performance enhances.

But since you clearly know more than I do on the subject; can you please explain to us lesser folk what the advantages of dosing higher are?

Edit: nothing wrong with experimenting with higher doses, but considering you insulted me I will fight back :)
Click to expand...


How dare you, Sir! AM and indeed all of BBing depend on the More IS Better mantra. In fact, it's more than mantra...its dogma. So why don't you tell us why you hate America and God so much?? Yeah, I thought so:)

Seriously though, dosing higher is just done in the spirit of experimentation which is something we all do on this board. AM = The League of Supplement Daredevils. I pretty much stick to 2-3 grams per day these days but have gone higher "just to see". What I saw above 7 grams was gastric emptying, yippee!
 
BlackWinging said:
Oh, I didn't think it's main MoA was the homocysteine reduction, just that that was one of the most studied aspects. The GH/IGF-1 aspect is what I'm most interested in betaine for, as I already get the increased hydration from taurine/creatine.

That's good to hear, I saw that choline increased serum levels of TMG quite high by itself, so I'm glad TMG can spare the choline I take.
Click to expand...

I feel that betaine as an organic osmolyte and protein protectant is one of the major reasons why we see improvements in force output and initial changes in body composition. The IGF-1 axis may have something to do with it, but the studies that show acute (2 week) increases in performance are more likely due to increased intracellular water and protein stability in the face of decreasing pH and urea build up.

I'm working on a review right now that will speculate on MoA...hoping to have it out in a few months.
 
ZiR RED said:
I feel that betaine as an organic osmolyte and protein protectant is one of the major reasons why we see improvements in force output and initial changes in body composition. The IGF-1 axis may have something to do with it, but the studies that show acute (2 week) increases in performance are more likely due to increased intracellular water and protein stability in the face of decreasing pH and urea build up.

I'm working on a review right now that will speculate on MoA...hoping to have it out in a few months.
Click to expand...


We look forward to seeing your results.
 
ZiR RED said:
I feel that betaine as an organic osmolyte and protein protectant is one of the major reasons why we see improvements in force output and initial changes in body composition. The IGF-1 axis may have something to do with it, but the studies that show acute (2 week) increases in performance are more likely due to increased intracellular water and protein stability in the face of decreasing pH and urea build up.

I'm working on a review right now that will speculate on MoA...hoping to have it out in a few months.
Click to expand...

So the IGF-1 increase may be a long term benefit then? Is there any chance of a creatine & betaine study to see if there's any difference between the groups or added synergy?

In any case, this is definitely exciting stuff, I gotta give you and everyone else involved with the study thanks.
 
Beau said:
Although I am not qualified to speak on behalf of NOW, I just did some calculations and came up with the following theory: Using 6 gr per day sells twice as much product as using 3 gr per day. Good thing I have that new fangled Excell thing.
Click to expand...

I highly doubt that's the reason
 
bioman said:
How dare you, Sir! AM and indeed all of BBing depend on the More IS Better mantra. In fact, it's more than mantra...its dogma. So why don't you tell us why you hate America and God so much?? Yeah, I thought so:)

Seriously though, dosing higher is just done in the spirit of experimentation which is something we all do on this board. AM = The League of Supplement Daredevils. I pretty much stick to 2-3 grams per day these days but have gone higher "just to see". What I saw above 7 grams was gastric emptying, yippee!
Click to expand...

Ah yes lol. I've done a fair bit of research on the compound since ZiR first posted his video on it.
 
ZiR RED said:
I feel that betaine as an organic osmolyte and protein protectant is one of the major reasons why we see improvements in force output and initial changes in body composition. The IGF-1 axis may have something to do with it, but the studies that show acute (2 week) increases in performance are more likely due to increased intracellular water and protein stability in the face of decreasing pH and urea build up.

I'm working on a review right now that will speculate on MoA...hoping to have it out in a few months.
Click to expand...

These are my thoughts as well. More water in the muscle cell will register as increased LBM. It also has interesting effects on various catabolic hormones (e.g. mild cortisol reduction)
 
Beau said:
If and to the extent Hcy IS a concern, co-administering a multi methyl B-complex (I use Jarrow's "B-Right) addresses the homocysteine issue.
Click to expand...

A b-complex should be sufficient in reducing exercise induced increase in hcy. If you eat a good amount of meat (b12) than you can just supplement with folate on its own and your hcy concerns should be covered.

BlackWinging said:
Oh, I didn't think it's main MoA was the homocysteine reduction, just that that was one of the most studied aspects. The GH/IGF-1 aspect is what I'm most interested in betaine for, as I already get the increased hydration from taurine/creatine.
Click to expand...

The gh effects from betaine supplementation iirc are an transient increase. If so it most likely wont manifest into much of a physical difference from someone not having that increased gh pulse.

Betaine has several interesting physiological effects such as improving insulin signaling, improving fatty acid translocation into the mitochondria, suppressing lipogenic enzyme activation and gene expression (nutrient partioner) amd of course the increaswd GH pulse and IGF1 signaling. Im sure most will be covered in zir reds review paper.

BlackWinging said:
Is there any chance of a creatine & betaine study to see if there's any difference between the groups or added synergy?
Click to expand...

Both creatine and betaine work by pulling water into the muscles but from the current literature it looks as though betaine actually does a better job at stabilizing the internal environment.

IIRC, there is a study that investigated the interaction between creatine and betaine. They were hoping that betaine increased creatine biosynthesis but the study failed to show any increase in intramuscular stores.
 
JudoJosh said:
A b-complex should be sufficient in reducing exercise induced increase in hcy. If you eat a good amount of meat (b12) than you can just supplement with folate on its own and your hcy concerns should be covered.



The gh effects from betaine supplementation iirc are an transient increase. If so it most likely wont manifest into much of a physical difference from someone not having that increased gh pulse.

Betaine has several interesting physiological effects such as improving insulin signaling, improving fatty acid translocation into the mitochondria, suppressing lipogenic enzyme activation and gene expression (nutrient partioner) amd of course the increaswd GH pulse and IGF1 signaling. Im sure most will be covered in zir reds review paper.



Both creatine and betaine work by pulling water into the muscles but from the current literature it looks as though betaine actually does a better job at stabilizing the internal environment.

IIRC, there is a study that investigated the interaction between creatine and betaine. They were hoping that betaine increased creatine biosynthesis but the study failed to show any increase in intramuscular stores.
Click to expand...

Very informative; kudos and thanks.
 
JudoJosh said:
A b-complex should be sufficient in reducing exercise induced increase in hcy. If you eat a good amount of meat (b12) than you can just supplement with folate on its own and your hcy concerns should be covered.



The gh effects from betaine supplementation iirc are an transient increase. If so it most likely wont manifest into much of a physical difference from someone not having that increased gh pulse.

Betaine has several interesting physiological effects such as improving insulin signaling, improving fatty acid translocation into the mitochondria, suppressing lipogenic enzyme activation and gene expression (nutrient partioner) amd of course the increaswd GH pulse and IGF1 signaling. Im sure most will be covered in zir reds review paper.



Both creatine and betaine work by pulling water into the muscles but from the current literature it looks as though betaine actually does a better job at stabilizing the internal environment.

IIRC, there is a study that investigated the interaction between creatine and betaine. They were hoping that betaine increased creatine biosynthesis but the study failed to show any increase in intramuscular stores.
Click to expand...


Excellent, thanks for the info. It really is shaping up to being a really impressive supplement. Can't wait for the review paper.
 
Any thoughts on cramping?


My hamstring has been cramping lately, well a few times, and has not before. I'm not sure if it is that I am upwards of 90% in training at this time or if it is the intramuscular water retention from TMG and creatine. Any thoughts? Others experiences?
 
rob112 said:
Any thoughts on cramping?


My hamstring has been cramping lately, well a few times, and has not before. I'm not sure if it is that I am upwards of 90% in training at this time or if it is the intramuscular water retention from TMG and creatine. Any thoughts? Others experiences?
Click to expand...
nothing specific to this in regards to feedback I have observed -- other than the age-old concept that it remains important to stay well hydrated when consuming any supplements..
I really think ppl tend to overlook this aspect of hydration, on a mass scale
 
JudoJosh said:
IIRC, there is a study that investigated the interaction between creatine and betaine. They were hoping that betaine increased creatine biosynthesis but the study failed to show any increase in intramuscular stores.
Click to expand...

Yes, it showed no increase in IM creatine stores with betaine, no increase in IM creatine with betaine + creatine, and no improvement in performance with betaine. I do a good job critiquing this study in the review. WRT performance the subjects were instructed not to exercise during the study. WRT to creatine stores, I do not think they would increase without a reason to store more creatine I.e.: adaptation to high intensity exercise that runs on the phosphagen system.

Del Favero et al. I think published in 2011 is the study we are referring.
 
Has anyone noticed dry skin since supplementing tmg? I'm not sure if its the cold weather, not enough h20, or shower water being too hot.
 
mcc23 said:
Has anyone noticed dry skin since supplementing tmg? I'm not sure if its the cold weather, not enough h20, or shower water being too hot.
Click to expand...

Would assume hot showers could be the main issue here, as the same issue has happened to me (and I'm quite sure Betaine isn't too blame since I've been using it steadily for 9 months).
 
ZiR RED said:
All the previous research that showed improvements in performance were carried out at 2.5. It would be interesting to compare performance differences at 2.5g to say...5g and maybe even 7.5g. I should do that next.
Click to expand...
Is this still on track?

Wondering what dose to take.
 
GigaPaladin said:
Why should I go with 2.5 when the guy who conducted the studies was just suggesting 5 or even 7.5 grams might be more effective?

Its not like its expensive or anything. Couldn't hurt to give it a try at least
Click to expand...

Space that **** out then ma man
 
So betaine>creatine? But then I see Creatine>betaine..
This thread confuses me so much lol
Which one is it?
Beneficial to run both creatine AND betaine or is that redundant since they both have similar effects?
 
GigaPaladin said:
Why should I go with 2.5 when the guy who conducted the studies was just suggesting 5 or even 7.5 grams might be more effective? Its not like its expensive or anything. Couldn't hurt to give it a try at least
Click to expand...

He never said it was more effective. He said it would be interesting to do a study with that dose. All I'm saying is, why not go with the dose he did in the study that shows the benefits?

People always think more is better.
 
kbayne said:
People always think more is better.
Click to expand...

it does never pay to categorizing "people" my friend minimalist may taking umbrage unto kbayne ratiocination
 
rosemont83 said:
So betaine>creatine? But then I see Creatine>betaine..
This thread confuses me so much lol
Which one is it?
Beneficial to run both creatine AND betaine or is that redundant since they both have similar effects?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say there the most comparable ergogens in the first place..

Take both.
 
GigaPaladin said:
Why should I go with 2.5 when the guy who conducted the studies was just suggesting 5 or even 7.5 grams might be more effective?

Its not like its expensive or anything. Couldn't hurt to give it a try at least
Click to expand...

Try 7.5g when SNS sells it

Invalid Link Removed
 
Lol at the fukken morons on this forum...the guy that wrote the book on the supplement suggests there might be merit in going with a higher dose. Then you say you're going to do it and they act like your stupid.

Dear God. Thats a special kind of potato
 
GigaPaladin said:
Lol at the fukken morons on this forum...the guy that wrote the book on the supplement suggests there might be merit in going with a higher dose. Then you say you're going to do it and they act like your stupid. Dear God. Thats a special kind of potato
Click to expand...

Are you hard of seeing?!

He never said there was any benefit to going with a higher dose. He simply said he will be conducting a study with a higher dose.

But HE DID SAY, 2.5-3g was the dose he did the study with, which lead to the benefits he was speaking of.
 
GigaPaladin said:
Lol at the fukken morons on this forum...the guy that wrote the book on the supplement suggests there might be merit in going with a higher dose. Then you say you're going to do it and they act like your stupid.

Dear God. Thats a special kind of potato
Click to expand...

rofl
 
Forgot to ask earlier... Any need to cycle off of Betaine? Wasn't sure if it was needed from a homeostasis perspective or anything along those lines.
 
aaronuconn said:
Forgot to ask earlier... Any need to cycle off of Betaine? Wasn't sure if it was needed from a homeostasis perspective or anything along those lines.
Click to expand...

Tough to say but it's quite benign. Also, if the saturation theory is true then higher doses may indeed be beneficial (similar to creatine loading)
 
GigaPaladin said:
Lol at the fukken morons on this forum...the guy that wrote the book on the supplement suggests there might be merit in going with a higher dose. Then you say you're going to do it and they act like your stupid.

Dear God. Thats a special kind of potato
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with trying by any means. But people did the same with Creatine and now look, the recommended dose recommendations keep getting lower.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Tough to say but it's quite benign. Also, if the saturation theory is true then higher doses may indeed be beneficial (similar to creatine loading)
Click to expand...

Beneficial as in just getting to skeletal tissue saturation capacity faster, correct? So a short term benefit.
 
GigaPaladin said:
Is this still on track?

Wondering what dose to take.
Click to expand...

I love how this thread took off!

We are actually looking to test lower doses to see where the low-end of the dose-response curve exists.

With the high tissue absorption and low metabolism of betaine, I do not think loading it would yield faster results. I never suggested going over 3g per day, even though the side effects would likely be mild (GI distress).
 
Invalid Link Removed is one have I found and livelong I think is on the planet
 
Touey said:
Invalid Link Removed is one have I found and livelong I think is on the planet
Click to expand...

If you are looking for TMG it can be found everywhere, and very inexpensively - both in bulk powder and as a capped product.
 
I like the powder to mix in with the special formula
 
Anyone tried the Max Pump? It's betaine nitrate. 3 pills is 3000mg of the combo. I find that if take 5 pills the pumps are almost painful and the strength and endurance is crazy!
 
Finally got on the train and ordered 2 bottles of now tmg.
Pretty interested to see how this stuff affects me. 1000 mg pills so I guess I can just take 3 of them..
Also guys when the study says increase in power but not strength what does that mean exactly?
 
rosemont83 said:
Finally got on the train and ordered 2 bottles of now tmg.
Pretty interested to see how this stuff affects me. 1000 mg pills so I guess I can just take 3 of them..
Also guys when the study says increase in power but not strength what does that mean exactly?
Click to expand...

Basically, the results are promising, but not conclusive. In our study we saw an improvement in work capacity (i.e.: volume performed over several sessions (week 1: 3 x 10,9,8; week 2: 11,10,9)) but we did not see an increase in strength (measured by bench press and squat 1RM). Others have seen an increase in strength (measured by maximal force production against a fixed object) but not power. Whereas others have seen an increase in power (measured by speed which with 50% 1rm can be moved...or something field based such as vertical jump, bench press throw, etc.)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top