All aboard the Betaine train.

[bioman]

No research background on the topic? Really?

Enlighten me o Betaine god.

The toxiological bell curve was a joke, but performance studues show 2.5g to be the mark in which performance enhances.

But since you clearly know more than I do on the subject; can you please explain to us lesser folk what the advantages of dosing higher are?

Edit: nothing wrong with experimenting with higher doses, but considering you insulted me I will fight back

How dare you, Sir! AM and indeed all of BBing depend on the More IS Better mantra. In fact, it's more than mantra...its dogma. So why don't you tell us why you hate America and God so much?? Yeah, I thought so

Seriously though, dosing higher is just done in the spirit of experimentation which is something we all do on this board. AM = The League of Supplement Daredevils. I pretty much stick to 2-3 grams per day these days but have gone higher "just to see". What I saw above 7 grams was gastric emptying, yippee!

 

[ZiR RED]

Oh, I didn't think it's main MoA was the homocysteine reduction, just that that was one of the most studied aspects. The GH/IGF-1 aspect is what I'm most interested in betaine for, as I already get the increased hydration from taurine/creatine.

That's good to hear, I saw that choline increased serum levels of TMG quite high by itself, so I'm glad TMG can spare the choline I take.

I feel that betaine as an organic osmolyte and protein protectant is one of the major reasons why we see improvements in force output and initial changes in body composition. The IGF-1 axis may have something to do with it, but the studies that show acute (2 week) increases in performance are more likely due to increased intracellular water and protein stability in the face of decreasing pH and urea build up.

I'm working on a review right now that will speculate on MoA...hoping to have it out in a few months.

 

[bioman]

I feel that betaine as an organic osmolyte and protein protectant is one of the major reasons why we see improvements in force output and initial changes in body composition. The IGF-1 axis may have something to do with it, but the studies that show acute (2 week) increases in performance are more likely due to increased intracellular water and protein stability in the face of decreasing pH and urea build up.

I'm working on a review right now that will speculate on MoA...hoping to have it out in a few months.

We look forward to seeing your results.

 

[BlackWinging]

I feel that betaine as an organic osmolyte and protein protectant is one of the major reasons why we see improvements in force output and initial changes in body composition. The IGF-1 axis may have something to do with it, but the studies that show acute (2 week) increases in performance are more likely due to increased intracellular water and protein stability in the face of decreasing pH and urea build up.

I'm working on a review right now that will speculate on MoA...hoping to have it out in a few months.

So the IGF-1 increase may be a long term benefit then? Is there any chance of a creatine & betaine study to see if there's any difference between the groups or added synergy?

In any case, this is definitely exciting stuff, I gotta give you and everyone else involved with the study thanks.

 

[burpees]

Although I am not qualified to speak on behalf of NOW, I just did some calculations and came up with the following theory: Using 6 gr per day sells twice as much product as using 3 gr per day. Good thing I have that new fangled Excell thing.

I highly doubt that's the reason

 

[T-Bone]

Anyone here have a Th.D?

 

[Jiigzz]

How dare you, Sir! AM and indeed all of BBing depend on the More IS Better mantra. In fact, it's more than mantra...its dogma. So why don't you tell us why you hate America and God so much?? Yeah, I thought so

Seriously though, dosing higher is just done in the spirit of experimentation which is something we all do on this board. AM = The League of Supplement Daredevils. I pretty much stick to 2-3 grams per day these days but have gone higher "just to see". What I saw above 7 grams was gastric emptying, yippee!

Ah yes lol. I've done a fair bit of research on the compound since ZiR first posted his video on it.

 

[mr.cooper69]

I feel that betaine as an organic osmolyte and protein protectant is one of the major reasons why we see improvements in force output and initial changes in body composition. The IGF-1 axis may have something to do with it, but the studies that show acute (2 week) increases in performance are more likely due to increased intracellular water and protein stability in the face of decreasing pH and urea build up.

I'm working on a review right now that will speculate on MoA...hoping to have it out in a few months.

These are my thoughts as well. More water in the muscle cell will register as increased LBM. It also has interesting effects on various catabolic hormones (e.g. mild cortisol reduction)

 

[JudoJosh]

If and to the extent Hcy IS a concern, co-administering a multi methyl B-complex (I use Jarrow's "B-Right) addresses the homocysteine issue.

A b-complex should be sufficient in reducing exercise induced increase in hcy. If you eat a good amount of meat (b12) than you can just supplement with folate on its own and your hcy concerns should be covered.

Oh, I didn't think it's main MoA was the homocysteine reduction, just that that was one of the most studied aspects. The GH/IGF-1 aspect is what I'm most interested in betaine for, as I already get the increased hydration from taurine/creatine.

The gh effects from betaine supplementation iirc are an transient increase. If so it most likely wont manifest into much of a physical difference from someone not having that increased gh pulse.

Betaine has several interesting physiological effects such as improving insulin signaling, improving fatty acid translocation into the mitochondria, suppressing lipogenic enzyme activation and gene expression (nutrient partioner) amd of course the increaswd GH pulse and IGF1 signaling. Im sure most will be covered in zir reds review paper.

Is there any chance of a creatine & betaine study to see if there's any difference between the groups or added synergy?

Both creatine and betaine work by pulling water into the muscles but from the current literature it looks as though betaine actually does a better job at stabilizing the internal environment.

IIRC, there is a study that investigated the interaction between creatine and betaine. They were hoping that betaine increased creatine biosynthesis but the study failed to show any increase in intramuscular stores.

 

[Beau]

A b-complex should be sufficient in reducing exercise induced increase in hcy. If you eat a good amount of meat (b12) than you can just supplement with folate on its own and your hcy concerns should be covered.



The gh effects from betaine supplementation iirc are an transient increase. If so it most likely wont manifest into much of a physical difference from someone not having that increased gh pulse.

Betaine has several interesting physiological effects such as improving insulin signaling, improving fatty acid translocation into the mitochondria, suppressing lipogenic enzyme activation and gene expression (nutrient partioner) amd of course the increaswd GH pulse and IGF1 signaling. Im sure most will be covered in zir reds review paper.



Both creatine and betaine work by pulling water into the muscles but from the current literature it looks as though betaine actually does a better job at stabilizing the internal environment.

IIRC, there is a study that investigated the interaction between creatine and betaine. They were hoping that betaine increased creatine biosynthesis but the study failed to show any increase in intramuscular stores.

Very informative; kudos and thanks.

 

[BlackWinging]

A b-complex should be sufficient in reducing exercise induced increase in hcy. If you eat a good amount of meat (b12) than you can just supplement with folate on its own and your hcy concerns should be covered.



The gh effects from betaine supplementation iirc are an transient increase. If so it most likely wont manifest into much of a physical difference from someone not having that increased gh pulse.

Betaine has several interesting physiological effects such as improving insulin signaling, improving fatty acid translocation into the mitochondria, suppressing lipogenic enzyme activation and gene expression (nutrient partioner) amd of course the increaswd GH pulse and IGF1 signaling. Im sure most will be covered in zir reds review paper.



Both creatine and betaine work by pulling water into the muscles but from the current literature it looks as though betaine actually does a better job at stabilizing the internal environment.

IIRC, there is a study that investigated the interaction between creatine and betaine. They were hoping that betaine increased creatine biosynthesis but the study failed to show any increase in intramuscular stores.

Excellent, thanks for the info. It really is shaping up to being a really impressive supplement. Can't wait for the review paper.

 

[rob112]

Any thoughts on cramping?


My hamstring has been cramping lately, well a few times, and has not before. I'm not sure if it is that I am upwards of 90% in training at this time or if it is the intramuscular water retention from TMG and creatine. Any thoughts? Others experiences?

 

[snagencyV2.0]

Any thoughts on cramping?


My hamstring has been cramping lately, well a few times, and has not before. I'm not sure if it is that I am upwards of 90% in training at this time or if it is the intramuscular water retention from TMG and creatine. Any thoughts? Others experiences?

nothing specific to this in regards to feedback I have observed -- other than the age-old concept that it remains important to stay well hydrated when consuming any supplements..
I really think ppl tend to overlook this aspect of hydration, on a mass scale

 

[ZiR RED]

IIRC, there is a study that investigated the interaction between creatine and betaine. They were hoping that betaine increased creatine biosynthesis but the study failed to show any increase in intramuscular stores.

Yes, it showed no increase in IM creatine stores with betaine, no increase in IM creatine with betaine + creatine, and no improvement in performance with betaine. I do a good job critiquing this study in the review. WRT performance the subjects were instructed not to exercise during the study. WRT to creatine stores, I do not think they would increase without a reason to store more creatine I.e.: adaptation to high intensity exercise that runs on the phosphagen system.

Del Favero et al. I think published in 2011 is the study we are referring.

 

[mcc23]

Has anyone noticed dry skin since supplementing tmg? I'm not sure if its the cold weather, not enough h20, or shower water being too hot.

 

[Beau]

Not me.

 

[schizm]

Nor I...going on 3g/day for about 5 weeks now...

 

[bioman]

A little but then it's winter at 7000' here.

 

[rob112]

Probably winter

 

[snagencyV2.0]

Has anyone noticed dry skin since supplementing tmg? I'm not sure if its the cold weather, not enough h20, or shower water being too hot.

pretty sure you are referencing the latter options .. certainly not caused by the tmg sir

 

[aaronuconn]

Has anyone noticed dry skin since supplementing tmg? I'm not sure if its the cold weather, not enough h20, or shower water being too hot.

Would assume hot showers could be the main issue here, as the same issue has happened to me (and I'm quite sure Betaine isn't too blame since I've been using it steadily for 9 months).

 

[T-Bone]

Showers are best taken lukewarm and don't stay in that long.

 

[GigaPaladin]

All the previous research that showed improvements in performance were carried out at 2.5. It would be interesting to compare performance differences at 2.5g to say...5g and maybe even 7.5g. I should do that next.

Is this still on track?

Wondering what dose to take.

 

[kbayne]

Is this still on track? Wondering what dose to take.

Just got with 2.5-3g.

 

[GigaPaladin]

Just got with 2.5-3g.

Why should I go with 2.5 when the guy who conducted the studies was just suggesting 5 or even 7.5 grams might be more effective?

Its not like its expensive or anything. Couldn't hurt to give it a try at least

 

[rob112]

Why should I go with 2.5 when the guy who conducted the studies was just suggesting 5 or even 7.5 grams might be more effective?

Its not like its expensive or anything. Couldn't hurt to give it a try at least

Space that **** out then ma man

 

[rosemont83]

So betaine>creatine? But then I see Creatine>betaine..
This thread confuses me so much lol
Which one is it?
Beneficial to run both creatine AND betaine or is that redundant since they both have similar effects?

 

[kbayne]

Why should I go with 2.5 when the guy who conducted the studies was just suggesting 5 or even 7.5 grams might be more effective? Its not like its expensive or anything. Couldn't hurt to give it a try at least

He never said it was more effective. He said it would be interesting to do a study with that dose. All I'm saying is, why not go with the dose he did in the study that shows the benefits?

People always think more is better.

 

[Touey]

People always think more is better.

it does never pay to categorizing "people" my friend minimalist may taking umbrage unto kbayne ratiocination

 

[aaronuconn]

So betaine>creatine? But then I see Creatine>betaine..
This thread confuses me so much lol
Which one is it?
Beneficial to run both creatine AND betaine or is that redundant since they both have similar effects?

I wouldn't say there the most comparable ergogens in the first place..

Take both.

 

[Jiigzz]

Why should I go with 2.5 when the guy who conducted the studies was just suggesting 5 or even 7.5 grams might be more effective?

Its not like its expensive or anything. Couldn't hurt to give it a try at least

Try 7.5g when SNS sells it

 

[T-Bone]

Do at least 20 grams, than you'll be super buff and ripped too!

 

[aaronuconn]

My stomach hurts just thinking of dosing 7.5g in a single bolus (I realize no one said at one time.. but still).

 

[GigaPaladin]

Lol at the fukken morons on this forum...the guy that wrote the book on the supplement suggests there might be merit in going with a higher dose. Then you say you're going to do it and they act like your stupid.

Dear God. Thats a special kind of potato

 

[kbayne]

Lol at the fukken morons on this forum...the guy that wrote the book on the supplement suggests there might be merit in going with a higher dose. Then you say you're going to do it and they act like your stupid. Dear God. Thats a special kind of potato

Are you hard of seeing?!

He never said there was any benefit to going with a higher dose. He simply said he will be conducting a study with a higher dose.

But HE DID SAY, 2.5-3g was the dose he did the study with, which lead to the benefits he was speaking of.

 

[Quadzilla99]

Lol at the fukken morons on this forum...the guy that wrote the book on the supplement suggests there might be merit in going with a higher dose. Then you say you're going to do it and they act like your stupid.

Dear God. Thats a special kind of potato

rofl

 

[aaronuconn]

Forgot to ask earlier... Any need to cycle off of Betaine? Wasn't sure if it was needed from a homeostasis perspective or anything along those lines.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Forgot to ask earlier... Any need to cycle off of Betaine? Wasn't sure if it was needed from a homeostasis perspective or anything along those lines.

Tough to say but it's quite benign. Also, if the saturation theory is true then higher doses may indeed be beneficial (similar to creatine loading)

 

[Jiigzz]

Lol at the fukken morons on this forum...the guy that wrote the book on the supplement suggests there might be merit in going with a higher dose. Then you say you're going to do it and they act like your stupid.

Dear God. Thats a special kind of potato

Nothing wrong with trying by any means. But people did the same with Creatine and now look, the recommended dose recommendations keep getting lower.

 

[bioman]

Nobody experiments with supplements around here. That would be ridiculous

 

[mcc23]

Tough to say but it's quite benign. Also, if the saturation theory is true then higher doses may indeed be beneficial (similar to creatine loading)

Beneficial as in just getting to skeletal tissue saturation capacity faster, correct? So a short term benefit.

 

[ZiR RED]

Is this still on track?

Wondering what dose to take.

I love how this thread took off!

We are actually looking to test lower doses to see where the low-end of the dose-response curve exists.

With the high tissue absorption and low metabolism of betaine, I do not think loading it would yield faster results. I never suggested going over 3g per day, even though the side effects would likely be mild (GI distress).

 

[Touey]

http://www.livelongsupplements.com/Betaine-Anhydrous.html is one have I found and livelong I think is on the planet

 

[Beau]

http://www.livelongsupplements.com/Betaine-Anhydrous.html is one have I found and livelong I think is on the planet

If you are looking for TMG it can be found everywhere, and very inexpensively - both in bulk powder and as a capped product.

 

[Touey]

I like the powder to mix in with the special formula

 

[tinytony]

Anyone tried the Max Pump? It's betaine nitrate. 3 pills is 3000mg of the combo. I find that if take 5 pills the pumps are almost painful and the strength and endurance is crazy!

 

[Beau]

I like the powder to mix in with the special formula

I tried to PM, but your inbox - she is full.

 

[Touey]

I tried to PM, but your inbox - she is full.

clear

 

[rosemont83]

Finally got on the train and ordered 2 bottles of now tmg.
Pretty interested to see how this stuff affects me. 1000 mg pills so I guess I can just take 3 of them..
Also guys when the study says increase in power but not strength what does that mean exactly?

 

[ZiR RED]

Finally got on the train and ordered 2 bottles of now tmg.
Pretty interested to see how this stuff affects me. 1000 mg pills so I guess I can just take 3 of them..
Also guys when the study says increase in power but not strength what does that mean exactly?

Basically, the results are promising, but not conclusive. In our study we saw an improvement in work capacity (i.e.: volume performed over several sessions (week 1: 3 x 10,9,8; week 2: 11,10,9)) but we did not see an increase in strength (measured by bench press and squat 1RM). Others have seen an increase in strength (measured by maximal force production against a fixed object) but not power. Whereas others have seen an increase in power (measured by speed which with 50% 1rm can be moved...or something field based such as vertical jump, bench press throw, etc.)