All aboard the Betaine train.

[rosemont83]

Basically, the results are promising, but not conclusive. In our study we saw an improvement in work capacity (i.e.: volume performed over several sessions (week 1: 3 x 10,9,8; week 2: 11,10,9)) but we did not see an increase in strength (measured by bench press and squat 1RM). Others have seen an increase in strength (measured by maximal force production against a fixed object) but not power. Whereas others have seen an increase in power (measured by speed which with 50% 1rm can be moved...or something field based such as vertical jump, bench press throw, etc.)

So different people have different effects.
Wonder what my effects will be..

 

[snagencyV2.0]

So different people have different effects.
Wonder what my effects will be..

a blacked-out ape face with a goofy smile and glowing slits for eyes?

 

[rosemont83]

a blacked-out ape face with a goofy smile and glowing slits for eyes?

Only when dosed 3.77 seconds before stimul8...
Haha.
Seriously though I need to try some finaflex products I haven't delved into your company yet..

 

[Synapsin]

Anyone tried the Max Pump? It's betaine nitrate. 3 pills is 3000mg of the combo. I find that if take 5 pills the pumps are almost painful and the strength and endurance is crazy!

That is an awful lot of nitrates in one dose. I do not recommend that.

 

[jimbuick]

That is an awful lot of nitrates in one dose. I do not recommend that.

They have stated that it is not 1:1.

 

[Synapsin]

They have stated that it is not 1:1.

Even at 2:1, that is a lot of nitrates, not to mention I have a hard time believing that. What did they say the ratio was?

 

[tinytony]

That is an awful lot of nitrates in one dose. I do not recommend that.

Why not? I'm running EC on cycle and it's keeping blood pressure about right so I don't feel like it's overdoing it in my case.

 

[jimbuick]

Even at 2:1, that is a lot of nitrates, not to mention I have a hard time believing that. What did they say the ratio was?

They didn't specify, just stated that it isn't 1:1. I'm not sure why you'd have a hard time believing what the company stated about their product.


Are you referring to it being a lot at 3 caps or at the above poster taking 5?

 

[Synapsin]

Why not? I'm running EC on cycle and it's keeping blood pressure about right so I don't feel like it's overdoing it in my case.

What are you running a cycle of?

They didn't specify, just stated that it isn't 1:1. I'm not sure why you'd have a hard time believing what the company stated about their product.


Are you referring to it being a lot at 3 caps or at the above poster taking 5?

I would love to see either a 2d or 3d image of such a molecule assuming they aren't just blending in betaine with some sort of other nitrate source instead of an actual bonded molecule. It shouldn't be hard to provide if their formulator can already specify its not 1:1. I am talking about however many caps of that product it takes for 3000 mg of "betaine nitrate".

 

[jimbuick]

What are you running a cycle of?

I would love to see either a 2d or 3d image of such a molecule assuming they aren't just blending in betaine with some sort of other nitrate source instead of an actual bonded molecule. It shouldn't be hard to provide if their formulator can already specify its not 1:1. I am talking about however many caps of that product it takes for 3000 mg of "betaine nitrate".

I couldn't tell you, and am not sure if the FinaFlex guys are allowed to disclose that information.

All they've said is that it is not 1:1.

 

[tinytony]

What are you running a cycle of?

I would love to see either a 2d or 3d image of such a molecule assuming they aren't just blending in betaine with some sort of other nitrate source instead of an actual bonded molecule. It shouldn't be hard to provide if their formulator can already specify its not 1:1. I am talking about however many caps of that product it takes for 3000 mg of "betaine nitrate".

Various things. I'm running a log in anabolic section.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

I couldn't tell you, and am not sure if the FinaFlex guys are allowed to disclose that information.

All they've said is that it is not 1:1.

this

and 3 caps /=/ 3000mg
that would be 4 caps

 

[mr.cooper69]

They didn't specify, just stated that it isn't 1:1. I'm not sure why you'd have a hard time believing what the company stated about their product.


Are you referring to it being a lot at 3 caps or at the above poster taking 5?

He's referring to the chemistry. There's only so many sites on betaine that nitrate can bind

 

[Synapsin]

He's referring to the chemistry. There's only so many sites on betaine that nitrate can bind

Bingo

 

[Adizzle1]

Is MaxPump just a mixture of Betaine and Nitrate similar to Citrulline Malate? Not actually being bonded but just mixed in a ratio?ie (1:1, 2:1) etc.



Moll mass of Betaine Nitrate i believe should be 179.151 and seeing as Nitrate is 62.0049 then BN is basically 35% Nitrate.

5 caps or 3.75g would yield about 1300mg of pure nitrate, from anecdotal feedback thats like twice as much then what i would consider a max. dose.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Is MaxPump just a mixture of Betaine and Nitrate similar to Citrulline Malate? Not actually being bonded but just mixed in a ratio?ie (1:1, 2:1) etc.



Moll mass of Betaine Nitrate i believe should be 179.151 and seeing as Nitrate is 62.0049 then BN is basically 35% Nitrate.

5 caps or 3.75g would yield about 1300mg of pure nitrate, from anecdotal feedback thats like twice as much then what i would consider a max. dose.

Malate can be blended because adding a hydrogen converts it to malic acid. Nitrates cannot be blended because adding a hydrogen creates nitric acid

 

[rosemont83]

So say I don't get a lot of gi distress..
If I took 3g at once preworkout would that be the optimal dose?
Also I got the 1000mg pills and now I'm wondering if there's a difference in absorption between pills vs powder.. equally effective maybe?

 

[ZiR RED]

Take it with food, absorption is not changed (a little slower, but it will still all be absorbed). Timing doesn't matter. Betaine is taken up and stored by the tissues, and that's where it exerts its effects. In our study we dosed it 2x per day in equal doses....but based on the research I've seen, timing shouldn't make a difference>

 

[mcc23]

So say I don't get a lot of gi distress..
If I took 3g at once preworkout would that be the optimal dose?
Also I got the 1000mg pills and now I'm wondering if there's a difference in absorption between pills vs powder.. equally effective maybe?

Are we still talking about Cit-Mal? Or nitrates? Nitrates you should exercise caution with. The last thing you want is an episode of hypotension from excessive nitrate ingestion.

 

[rosemont83]

Are we still talking about Cit-Mal? Or nitrates? Nitrates you should exercise caution with. The last thing you want is an episode of hypotension from excessive nitrate ingestion.

I was asking about betaine anhydrous/TMG

 

[mcc23]

I was asking about betaine anhydrous/TMG

Well, the studied dose was 2.5g I believe. I'd stick with that. Feel free to experiment, but no upper limits have been established yet.

 

[Adizzle1]

Malate can be blended because adding a hydrogen converts it to malic acid. Nitrates cannot be blended because adding a hydrogen creates nitric acid

Yea thats what i believed.

So betaine nitrate has similar nitrate content to Creatine Nitrate an other AANitrates, in that case 3+ grams seems very high for a recommended daily dose.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Yea thats what i believed.

So betaine nitrate has similar nitrate content to Creatine Nitrate an other AANitrates, in that case 3+ grams seems very high for a recommended daily dose.

I brought this up in another thread and was heavily bashed. I wish I could comment further, but all I can say is I agree with you and that the anecdote from max pump doesn't support that...so there probably isn't that much nitrate. My guess is this: betaine anhydrous + betaine nitrate in a 3 gram blend

 

[Synapsin]

I brought this up in another thread and was heavily bashed. I wish I could comment further, but all I can say is I agree with you and that the anecdote from max pump doesn't support that...so there probably isn't that much nitrate. My guess is this: betaine anhydrous + betaine nitrate in a 3 gram blend

That makes more sense based on what I've read as well from people's reviews of the product.

 

[kissdadookie]

They didn't specify, just stated that it isn't 1:1. I'm not sure why you'd have a hard time believing what the company stated about their product.


Are you referring to it being a lot at 3 caps or at the above poster taking 5?

It's actually 4 caps ='s 3 grams. I would guess that it's maybe even less than 2:1 as I feel the nitrates more using creatine nitrates or something like 2 scoops Condense. Max Pump still works relatively well though and I like how it doubles as a betaine dose.

 

[Montego1]

There is NOT 3g of pure nitrate in Max Pump. It is safe. End of discussion on that front. Moving on.

 

[kissdadookie]

There is NOT 3g of pure nitrate in Max Pump. It is safe. End of discussion on that front. Moving on.

That's what I figured. LoL.

 

[mcc23]

It's actually 4 caps ='s 3 grams. I would guess that it's maybe even less than 2:1 as I feel the nitrates more using creatine nitrates or something like 2 scoops Condense. Max Pump still works relatively well though and I like how it doubles as a betaine dose.

2.5g of TMG + ~400-500mg nitrates = 3g in MaxPump. Hopefully!

 

[snagencyV2.0]

There is NOT 3g of pure nitrate in Max Pump. It is safe. End of discussion on that front. Moving on.

but these conspiracy threads are so much fun!
just a matter of time before the same faces here that have previously "theorized" MP construction are at it again in another thread....

 

[kissdadookie]

2.5g of TMG + ~400-500mg nitrates = 3g in MaxPump. Hopefully!

That would be my guess TBH. I think creatine nitrates is like 75% nitrates? So a gram of that for me is very potent and I feel it more than I do Max Pump so I would think that there's a little less nitrates in Max Pump at the suggested serving size.

 

[mcc23]

That would be my guess TBH. I think creatine nitrates is like 75% nitrates? So a gram of that for me is very potent and I feel it more than I do Max Pump so I would think that there's a little less nitrates in Max Pump at the suggested serving size.

That's 50% more than recommended (max initial) dosage. But in the absence of anti-oxidants tolerance will develop, so I suppose its possible you could dose that amount. For me, I'm using KNO3 and its got Vit. C in it.
I don't think these companies would be diluting their products, tbch. Anyone who is experienced with supplements and not prone to placebo effects, will know when something is or isn't working for them. I've used MP during the summer and didn't notice much difference over KNO3 and Creatine NO3. My guess is that its legit.

 

[kissdadookie]

That's 50% more than recommended (max initial) dosage. But in the absence of anti-oxidants tolerance will develop, so I suppose its possible you could dose that amount. For me, I'm using KNO3 and its got Vit. C in it.
I don't think these companies would be diluting their products, tbch. Anyone who is experienced with supplements and not prone to placebo effects, will know when something is or isn't working for them. I've used MP during the summer and didn't notice much difference over KNO3 and Creatine NO3. My guess is that its legit.

TBH, the creatine nitrates I've used has been from the max dose of C4 which is 1 grams of creatine nitrates. That stuff gives me a very wicked fullness, I just don't use it much because the stim effect doesn't last very long for me.

EDIT: Just looked it up. So apparently 2 grams of creatine nitrates yields only 1.6 grams of creatine? So there's only around 300 mg of nitrate salts per 1 gram of creatine nitrates. Interesting, so Max Pump would probably be comparable then. I don't know why I get much fuller much quicker using C4 compared to Max Pump then... maybe there's less nitrates in MP, who knows. Stuff works well enough and I like it though

 

[mcc23]

Yea, there needs to be a sufficient amount of Creatine (thus receptor sites) for the nitrate to bond to. The exact figures I'm not sure of. I can say with near certainty that the nitrates in C4 are not likely to be more than the 400-500 mg you see in most other nitrate products. The price just doesn't justify it.. Also, If you're looking for more kick in your pwo, perhaps consider picking up some caffeine tablets from the grocery store and drop an extra 100mg in there.

 

[kissdadookie]

Yea, there needs to be a sufficient amount of Creatine (thus receptor sites) for the nitrate to bond to. The exact figures I'm not sure of. I can say with near certainty that the nitrates in C4 are not likely to be more than the 400-500 mg you see in most other nitrate products. The price just doesn't justify it.. Also, If you're looking for more kick in your pwo, perhaps consider picking up some caffeine tablets from the grocery store and drop an extra 100mg in there.

Nah, I've just been going with different preworkouts instead stacked with Max Pump and some bulk agmatine. LoL.

I have recently dug up a half used tub of Condense out of my closet. That stuff has been working pretty well. I'm guess I stopped using it at a time where I was not very sensitive to straight caffeine anymore, since that's basically the only thin in there apart from betaine, BA, and nitrates

 

[haiz69]

If I am not mistaken, Creatine Nitrate is 77% creatine and 23% Nitrate.

 

[kissdadookie]

If I am not mistaken, Creatine Nitrate is 77% creatine and 23% Nitrate.

That's sounds about right since there's apparently only 300 mg's or so of nitrates per 1 gram of creatine nitrate. Got this information from a old Omega post on bb.com btw. Lulz.

 

[mr.cooper69]

If I am not mistaken, Creatine Nitrate is 77% creatine and 23% Nitrate.

That's sounds about right since there's apparently only 300 mg's or so of nitrates per 1 gram of creatine nitrate. Got this information from a old Omega post on bb.com btw. Lulz.

32% nitrate, 68% creatine

 

[mr.cooper69]

That's 50% more than recommended (max initial) dosage. But in the absence of anti-oxidants tolerance will develop, so I suppose its possible you could dose that amount. For me, I'm using KNO3 and its got Vit. C in it.
I don't think these companies would be diluting their products, tbch. Anyone who is experienced with supplements and not prone to placebo effects, will know when something is or isn't working for them. I've used MP during the summer and didn't notice much difference over KNO3 and Creatine NO3. My guess is that its legit.

That's not what the antioxidants are for. To avoid tolerance to nitrate patches, it is recommended to have 8 hours without the patch on a daily basis. Since you are consuming nitrates once a day preworkout, you are fine.

 

[Jiigzz]

That's not what the antioxidants are for. To avoid tolerance to nitrate patches, it is recommended to have 8 hours without the patch on a daily basis. Since you are consuming nitrates once a day preworkout, you are fine.

This. Vit C helps prevent the conversion to nitrosamine

 

[mcc23]

This. Vit C helps prevent the conversion to nitrosamine

This is what I was getting at, but Coop still has a valid point

 

[De__eB]

but these conspiracy threads are so much fun!
just a matter of time before the same faces here that have previously "theorized" MP construction are at it again in another thread....

There is NOT 3g of pure nitrate in Max Pump. It is safe. End of discussion on that front. Moving on.

Whenever I brought that up here on the forums, it wasn't just some attempt to stir up drama. One of you, snagency I believe, had mentioned max pump in a thread, and I hadn't heard of the product so I looked it up and I see 'Betaine Nitrate - 3g' as the label.

That to me and I think most readers says 'There is one ingredient in this product, betaine nitrate, of which there is 3 grams' which would obviously be a high nitrate dose...

If instead the label read (Betaine, Betaine Nitrate - 3g), people would assume that there was just enough active dose of betaine nitrate to get your nitrates covered.

That's how basically every other amino acid nitrate product is labelled, so surely you can understand where the confusion comes from...

 

[snagencyV2.0]

Whenever I brought that up here on the forums, it wasn't just some attempt to stir up drama. One of you, snagency I believe, had mentioned max pump in a thread, and I hadn't heard of the product so I looked it up and I see 'Betaine Nitrate - 3g' as the label.

That to me and I think most readers says 'There is one ingredient in this product, betaine nitrate, of which there is 3 grams' which would obviously be a high nitrate dose...

If instead the label read (Betaine, Betaine Nitrate - 3g), people would assume that there was just enough active dose of betaine nitrate to get your nitrates covered.

That's how basically every other amino acid nitrate product is labelled, so surely you can understand where the confusion comes from...

guilty conscience bro? I never specified any names

the point being however: your "argument" above would be fine, if it weren't for the fact we have already dispelled this notion ad nauseum in multiple threads, to some of the same ppl who propagate the issue continuously going forward

but it obviously does no good to be candid and try explain the product, when these self-labeled "gurus" of supplements rant about whatever they wish

so, I sit back with bemusement, and just enjoy life, while some practice conspiracy theories at their leisure

 

[kissdadookie]

I dunno, I've always thought XYZ nitrate was essentially XYZ bonded to nitrate and the only mystery being what the ratio of each component would be per gram

 

[De__eB]

I dunno, I've always thought XYZ nitrate was essentially XYZ bonded to nitrate and the only mystery being what the ratio of each component would be per gram

The ratio shouldn't be a mystery at all if it's bonded <whateverthehell> nitrate. Just take their molecular weights and do some math.

 

[kissdadookie]

The ratio shouldn't be a mystery at all if it's bonded <whateverthehell> nitrate. Just take their molecular weights and do some math.

What exactly is the formula to convert molar mass to grams and what not? Mostly layperson here

 

[haiz69]

32% nitrate, 68% creatine

Huh. Not sure how I got that messed up.

Thanks coop.

 

[De__eB]

What exactly is the formula to convert molar mass to grams and what not? Mostly layperson here

An easy way to get a close estimate (although it automatically picks nitric acid, which is a bit off from what's actually in play here)

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=betaine+nitrate+molecular+weight

betaine | 117.146 (grams per mole)
nitric acid | 63 (grams per mole)

~65% Betaine
~35% Nitrate

~1.95g Betaine
~1.05g Nitrate

(If it was 3g Betaine Nitrate, it's not)

 

[Austinmck17]

What exactly is the formula to convert molar mass to grams and what not? Mostly layperson here

molar mass is g/mol. to find amount f nitrate in it you need the weight for betaine and nitrate. you then find the weight/weight % by dividing the two molecular weights. multiply by total betaine nitrate in product and you get nitrate amount lol

 

[kissdadookie]

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=betaine+nitrate+molecular+weight

betaine | 117.146 (grams per mole)
nitric acid | 63 (grams per mole)

~65% Betaine
~35% Nitrate

~1.95g Betaine
~1.05g Nitrate

(If it was 3g Betaine Nitrate, it's not)

Nice, thanks! I see, now I understand the the importance of how you worded it (betaine, betaine nitrate).

molar mass is g/mol. to find amount f nitrate in it you need the weight for betaine and nitrate. you then find the weight/weight % by dividing the two molecular weights. multiply by total betaine nitrate in product and you get nitrate amount lol

It's like as if I was back in math class

 

[mcc23]

Nice, thanks! I see, now I understand the the importance of how you worded it (betaine, betaine nitrate).



It's like as if I was back in math class

Chemistry :smashfreakB: