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The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

Distilled Water said:
For you guys who "carb up", how do you guys approach this? Is it as simple as no carbs on burn days and carbs on workout days?

I'm looking to utilize a TKD based diet with IF for my bulk this fall (best way for me to add mass without fat) with a moderate carb up on Saturday.
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I basically use the UD2.0 but with IF. It makes the low cal days much more satisfying, as you get to sit down to a 1500cal dinner instead of tiny meals throughout the day. And then get a 36hr carbup at the end of the week - I try to keep it clean, but I have ~12-1500g carbs in that time. This is followed by 2days of moderate (~200g) carb intake and then the cycle starts over.
 
Distilled Water said:
For you guys who "carb up", how do you guys approach this? Is it as simple as no carbs on burn days and carbs on workout days?

I'm looking to utilize a TKD based diet with IF for my bulk this fall (best way for me to add mass without fat) with a moderate carb up on Saturday.
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I would do no-low carbs on off days(trace-50), and still lowish on wo days(100-125g).
 
Frank Reynolds said:
I would do no-low carbs on off days(trace-50), and still lowish on wo days(100-125g).
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That was my thinking, using TN powdered muscle & WMS pre/intra workout. Maybe a meal with carbs post workout too.

Curious as to what others are doing since in new to this IF/LG lifestyle
 
i do around 250 or so carbs for like 4 days then one day with trace carbs, jsut veggies and dairy mostly, the day after that woudl u suggest a ery high carb day......and how many carbs ? 400-500?
 
mkretz said:
i do around 250 or so carbs for like 4 days then one day with trace carbs, jsut veggies and dairy mostly, the day after that woudl u suggest a ery high carb day......and how many carbs ? 400-500?
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Adjust your fats as well. I think ppl are forgetting this. Macros arent just protein and carbs.

Im at trace carbs -50g including fiber for 6 of 7 days. Then a day of 100-150g of carbs. But im dieting for a show. Fats are 75-125g for 6 days and 80-100 for the "high" carb day
 
yea i woudl have much lower fats on a high carb day and when i do trace carbs its almost all fats as the extra calories
 
DOES INSULIN SPIKE FROM BCAAs UNDO THE BENEFITS OF IFing?

Using BCAAs during IFing to prevent muscle catabolism as Martin has suggested is a good thing. But if it's 2X as insulogenic as glucose as the following article suggests, the question then is: is it enough to cause a large enough insulin spike to bring a person into the fed state?

Maybe we need to rethink taking it:

(sorry, you will need to please cut & paste into browser as I'm unable to post links still)

gulfcoastpersonaltrainingllc.com/why-supplementing-with-branched-chain-amino-acids-bcaa-pre-workout-will-be-detrimental-to-fasted-training/

My other concern would be whether large BCAA dosing could worsen or even cause leptin/insulin resistance.
 
mcs5309 said:
Using BCAAs during IFing to prevent muscle catabolism as Martin has suggested is a good thing. But if it's 2X as insulogenic as glucose as the following article suggests, the question then is: is it enough to cause a large enough insulin spike to bring a person into the fed state?

Maybe we need to rethink taking it:

(sorry, you will need to please cut & paste into browser as I'm unable to post links still)

gulfcoastpersonaltrainingllc.com/why-supplementing-with-branched-chain-amino-acids-bcaa-pre-workout-will-be-detrimental-to-fasted-training/

My other concern would be whether large BCAA dosing could worsen or even cause leptin/insulin resistance.
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Knowing that BCAAs are insulinogenic, I've been wondering the same thing lately. I typically consume 10g of BCAAs twice in the mornings before I break my fast at noon.
 
It says they are twice as insulinogenic, but did the paper say how long insulin is spiked? Don't have time to read it atm. Also insulin plus bcaa can't be too bad. I.ailing is a storage hormone.. oh Damn you're storing bcaas in your muscle tissue... I think there are worse things in the world.
 
Hey fellas I'm keen to give IF another crack but I need a bit of advice on how to go about it as I work some weird shifts. My roster goes something like 2-3 day shifts followed by 2-3 night shifts. I'm not really sure how to go about it when transitioning from day shift to night shift. I workout after day shift and before my first night shift ( days between nights are my off days ). Any advice would be appreciated :)
 
EasyEJL said:
What evidence does the article use to show its 2x as insulin ogenic as glucose?
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Just noticed the link in Matthew Caton's article that cites the link to this statement is dead. It was a quote from Alan Aragon:

forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=961653&page=1
tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_supplements/study_is_it_necessary_to_spike_insulin_postworkout_1

Anytime you raise insulin pwo, you negate the release of pwo GH secretion and benefits of autophagy.

But then leucine (supposedly the most insulinogenc BCAA) converts to ketones and ketones do not trigger insulin production:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6540547

Another fascinating read on speeding up keto with using leucine which spikes insulin AT FIRST but then converts to ketone bodies:
forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=112344231&page=1
Only isoleucine and valine convert into glucose.

Here is more from Caton posting on Mark Sisson's site:
marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-vegetarian-fed-bcaas-and-bland-grass-fed-beef/#axzz262OK9kDd

We need something as insurance against catabolism but can't have it be a double-edged sword in spiking insulin and possible causing lipogenesis simultaneously.

Based on the above research, here's my solution:

- 5-10g leucine pre-wo
-10-15g BCAAs pwo

Or - forget the BCAAs pre or pwo and just eat a sizeable amount of protein about 1 hour pwo so at least you capture the GH/autophagy benefits pwo. Caton claims he works out completely fasted, then eats around 300g of protein, so you can imagine what kind of gains he sees since protein synthesis is practically doubled from a fasted workout.

BTW, does anyone have links to any other IF forums? We need Martin to chime in on this.
 
Just a theory, but does anyone know if intermittent fasting could increase BUN and uric acid because a shorter feeding window (as opposed to throughout the day) because it was after starting IF (and keeping protein intake the same), my BUN levels shot up?

Again, when you have to consume all your calories in a condensed feeding window of 4-8 hours (depending on which IF regimen you choose), then wouldn't you have an extra load on your kidneys to process that much protein all at once? Thus, the increased BUN.

Has anyone noticed this as well?

Only thing I can think of: more protein for the kidneys to process because it's in a shorter eating window.
 
I'm curious of this as well. I just had a blood test done and my BUN level was way high. I just assumed this was because my test was first thing in the morning and I just didn't get enough water in me yet. Unfortunately I don't have any other tests to prove it has increased since starting IF (I've been following the IF protocol for 5 months or so at this point)
 
PintSizPopeye said:
I'm curious of this as well. I just had a blood test done and my BUN level was way high. I just assumed this was because my test was first thing in the morning and I just didn't get enough water in me yet. Unfortunately I don't have any other tests to prove it has increased since starting IF (I've been following the IF protocol for 5 months or so at this point)
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What was your BUN level? How much water do you drink? How much protein and what IF program are you doing? I'm doing 18/6.

My latest CMP showed elevated BUN (36 - ref range: 6-24), elevated BUN/Creatinine ratio (39 - ref range:9-20), and elevated urinary uric acid (1118.0 - ref range: 250.0-750.0).

I also showed elevated serum calcium (10.9 - ref range: 8.7-10.2). My serum uric acid (UA), however, is normal (4.6 - ref range: 3.7-8.6) as is my creatinine (0.92 - ref range 0.76-1.27) and eGFR (95 - ref range >59). There is no protein in my urine. I do not have gout. This would indicate there is no incidence of CKD or kidney failure and that my kidneys are able to remove the UA effectively. These levels have gradually increased over the last 6 mos.

I understand that the elevated levels are a direct result of purines from increased protein metabolism and its waste products. Just wondering since IFing.
 
mcs5309 said:
What was your BUN level? How much water do you drink? How much protein and what IF program are you doing? I'm doing 18/6.

My latest CMP showed elevated BUN (36 - ref range: 6-24), elevated BUN/Creatinine ratio (39 - ref range:9-20), and elevated urinary uric acid (1118.0 - ref range: 250.0-750.0).

I also showed elevated serum calcium (10.9 - ref range: 8.7-10.2). My serum uric acid (UA), however, is normal (4.6 - ref range: 3.7-8.6) as is my creatinine (0.92 - ref range 0.76-1.27) and eGFR (95 - ref range >59). There is no protein in my urine. I do not have gout. This would indicate there is no incidence of CKD or kidney failure and that my kidneys are able to remove the UA effectively. These levels have gradually increased over the last 6 mos.

I understand that the elevated levels are a direct result of purines from increased protein metabolism and its waste products. Just wondering since IFing.
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I usually follow a 17/7 routine and get about a gallon of water in a day. My BUN level was 44 (a little concerning to me), but it was first thing in the morning so I had maybe drank 16oz of water between waking up and driving to the lab. The day before was also a burn day so I had almost no carbs that day- I essentially ate only chicken, steak, and protein shakes... and also took some ECA. Next test I'm going to wake up sooner so I can drink more and give my body time process it. My creatinine was just a little above normal (1.33 vs .76-1.27) along with elevated BUN/Crea (33 vs 8-19). The other metabolic panel tests were normal, but I'm still trying to figure out what they all mean.

I dont have gout either, but how exactly can you tell whether you have protein in your urine?
 
PintSizPopeye said:
I usually follow a 17/7 routine and get about a gallon of water in a day. My BUN level was 44 (a little concerning to me), but it was first thing in the morning so I had maybe drank 16oz of water between waking up and driving to the lab. The day before was also a burn day so I had almost no carbs that day- I essentially ate only chicken, steak, and protein shakes... and also took some ECA. Next test I'm going to wake up sooner so I can drink more and give my body time process it. My creatinine was just a little above normal (1.33 vs .76-1.27) along with elevated BUN/Crea (33 vs 8-19). The other metabolic panel tests were normal, but I'm still trying to figure out what they all mean.

I dont have gout either, but how exactly can you tell whether you have protein in your urine?
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How many grams protein are you taking in daily? You and I are not big people, so do we really need 200g protein daily? I'm actually starting to go more moderate protein, as I am incorporating keto with the IF which should also help decrease the BUN. I still need to finish my cut before I bulk.

You would need to do a UA to determine if you have protein in your urine. It will most likely be negative is my guess. Mine was negative, however, my urine uric acid (I eat of a lot of meat=purines= uric acid) was elevated. More than gout, I would be concerned with CKD. You should also check you serum uric acid level which is more of an indication of possible gout, if elevated. You would also be feeling the symptoms of gout (painful joints, swelling). You probably have the similar situation like mine: not enough hydration before you had the test done and a concentrated amount of metabolized protein from the day prior even though you fasted for the lab and hopefully nothing more!

BTW, has your physician seen your levels? If so, what did he/she say?
 
mcs5309 said:
How many grams protein are you taking in daily? You and I are not big people, so do we really need 200g protein daily? I'm actually starting to go more moderate protein, as I am incorporating keto with the IF which should also help decrease the BUN. I still need to finish my cut before I bulk.

You would need to do a UA to determine if you have protein in your urine. It will most likely be negative is my guess. Mine was negative, however, my urine uric acid (I eat of a lot of meat=purines= uric acid) was elevated. More than gout, I would be concerned with CKD. You should also check you serum uric acid level which is more of an indication of possible gout, if elevated. You would also be feeling the symptoms of gout (painful joints, swelling). You probably have the similar situation like mine: not enough hydration before you had the test done and a concentrated amount of metabolized protein from the day prior even though you fasted for the lab and hopefully nothing more!

BTW, has your physician seen your levels? If so, what did he/she say?
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I've been around 250 grams on burn days and 300 on build days. I think I may need to start incorporating more fat into my diet and reduce the protein a little. When I took the test I was right at 12 hours of fasting which is what the paperwork said I should do.

Thanks for all the good info, I may have to get a few more tests done next time. At this point I don't have a doctor, I just haven't gotten around to it. I was concerned about my testosterone levels so i went out and got a blood test on my own and had all the done also (female hormone panel through Private MD Labs)
 
if ur doing if though it may take your body longer than normal to digeest everythign so try fasting longer next time as well
 
PintSizPopeye said:
I've been around 250 grams on burn days and 300 on build days. I think I may need to start incorporating more fat into my diet and reduce the protein a little. When I took the test I was right at 12 hours of fasting which is what the paperwork said I should do.

Thanks for all the good info, I may have to get a few more tests done next time. At this point I don't have a doctor, I just haven't gotten around to it. I was concerned about my testosterone levels so i went out and got a blood test on my own and had all the done also (female hormone panel through Private MD Labs)
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Yes, I would reduce the protein not a little, but a lot, like no more than 1g/lb bw. You're consuming way too much for your weight. No wonder your BUN is so elevated. And definitely incorporate more healthy fat. That should dramatically reduce BUN.
 
What is most of your guys daily protein in take with this protocol? I'm at about 250-300 at 180-185, natural. I don't know yet how I feel about the protocol as a whole buuuut I'm open to changing some things up and lowering protein to 180-200gr/day. I've got a few more weeks before I start 100% on off-season building with my own protocol I KNOW works.
 
Distilled Water said:
What is most of your guys daily protein in take with this protocol? I'm at about 250-300 at 180-185, natural. I don't know yet how I feel about the protocol as a whole buuuut I'm open to changing some things up and lowering protein to 180-200gr/day. I've got a few more weeks before I start 100% on off-season building with my own protocol I KNOW works.
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I eat 20-30g of protein OVER my body weight.. so 160-170g
 
PintSizPopeye said:
I've been around 250 grams on burn days and 300 on build days. I think I may need to start incorporating more fat into my diet and reduce the protein a little. When I took the test I was right at 12 hours of fasting which is what the paperwork said I should do.

Thanks for all the good info, I may have to get a few more tests done next time. At this point I don't have a doctor, I just haven't gotten around to it. I was concerned about my testosterone levels so i went out and got a blood test on my own and had all the done also (female hormone panel through Private MD Labs)
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holy crap, I outweigh you by 50% and never get as much as your burn days in
 
Distilled Water said:
What is most of your guys daily protein in take with this protocol? I'm at about 250-300 at 180-185, natural. I don't know yet how I feel about the protocol as a whole buuuut I'm open to changing some things up and lowering protein to 180-200gr/day. I've got a few more weeks before I start 100% on off-season building with my own protocol I KNOW works.
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mine is in the 180-200 range burn days, 200-225 build days.
 
Well I guess I really need to fix my diet then- lots more fats on burn days and more carbs on build days. I plan on getting another test done in a month or so, hopefully I can improve my results.
 
Distilled Water said:
What is most of your guys daily protein in take with this protocol? I'm at about 250-300 at 180-185, natural. I don't know yet how I feel about the protocol as a whole buuuut I'm open to changing some things up and lowering protein to 180-200gr/day. I've got a few more weeks before I start 100% on off-season building with my own protocol I KNOW works.
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I weight 162 and I take in around 180-220 just depending on what I want to eat. Today I had 212.
 
houstontexas said:
I weight 162 and I take in around 180-220 just depending on what I want to eat. Today I had 212.
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Thats what i regularly weigh in around 162-165, and id sconsume about 180-190g of pro, looks like were in the same mindset. How tall are you?
 
Distilled Water said:
Hardest thing for me is getting a pre training meal in, my 2nd break for work is 10min. Hard to get down calories in that short time frame, looking at adding MHP UpYourMass for this meal. I'd really rather not go without eating from 11am to 3:30pm (when I train) eat about 5:00-5:30.
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Whens your fasting window and eating window? Are you doing the traditional 16/8?
 
Distilled Water said:
Yeah 16/8, feed 11am to 7pm. Tried 8:30-5:30 but too hard bc of the breaks at work
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Im assuming you get off work at 330? If so, why not end your fast after training after work? (Again all assumptions lol) assume your workouts are hr and a half, eat from 5pm until you go to bed. Your eating window maybe condensed, but on "burn" days dont dip so low on carbs
 
Distilled Water said:
3:00 so close lol. I don't know if I could go the entire day without eating. That'd put my feed from 5-1am? I'm in bed by 9:30 most nights lol
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Im doing a 18/6 somtime 19.5/4.5 window (odd i know) but ill cook 3 LARGE meals, eat as much as i can the first "meal" then finish the rest. Youll adjust..
Hmm.. well 9pm-7am (again assumption lol) youre sleeping, so really your only going 9 hrs awake with no food lol ok that does sound like a long time.. ive found Tea sweetened with splenda to be my bestfriend, leucine and water with mio
 
I would eat a decent size meal at noon and maybe a small protein shake or BCAA's before going into the gym. I don't like eating much close to gym time b/c I feel like throwing it up once I start squatting heavy etc. You could do like 30-40% of daily intake before your workout and then the rest in the 3-4hrs post workout depending on when you leave the gym. On lifting days I eat around 2500-2700 right now and I eat a good 1500-1700 of that in 2hrs post workout. Just gotta find what works for you. I also eat almost all carbs post workout.
 
tyga tyga said:
Im doing a 18/6 somtime 19.5/4.5 window (odd i know) but ill cook 3 LARGE meals, eat as much as i can the first "meal" then finish the rest. Youll adjust..
Hmm.. well 9pm-7am (again assumption lol) youre sleeping, so really your only going 9 hrs awake with no food lol ok that does sound like a long time.. ive found Tea sweetened with splenda to be my bestfriend, leucine and water with mio
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In your 19.5/4.5 window, I'm assuming you're consuming your 180-190g protein which is a lot of protein to consume in such a short refeed window. I find that I am barely able to get 2 large meals in with this time frame unless I use a protein supplement. How in the #$%^ are you able to get in 3 meals? Also - with that amount of protein in such a condensed time period, have you noticed elevated BUN?
 
mcs5309 said:
In your 19.5/4.5 window, I'm assuming you're consuming your 180-190g protein which is a lot of protein to consume in such a short refeed window. I find that I am barely able to get 2 large meals in with this time frame unless I use a protein supplement. How in the #$%^ are you able to get in 3 meals? Also - with that amount of protein in such a condensed time period, have you noticed elevated BUN?
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I havent done bloods, so elevated BUN levels i dont know. I do drink two protein shakes. One breaks my fast as a smoothie (140g blueberries, 1/2c plain greek yogurt, 8 oz unsweetend almond milk, scoop of vanilla pro) while i drink this i eat my first meal, usually 8 oz chicken or fish with various vegetables, second meal is the same, inbetween i eat pb and cottage cheese with an atkins bar
 
I have been trying IF for a few weeks now and I've come to the conclusion it isn't for me.... I'm used to having at least 2 meals before I even workout... With this my workout struggles... No energy... I barely even sweat... I can't lift the normal weights I do... Im back to my normal routine....
 
Mkspillai said:
I have been trying IF for a few weeks now and I've come to the conclusion it isn't for me.... I'm used to having at least 2 meals before I even workout... With this my workout struggles... No energy... I barely even sweat... I can't lift the normal weights I do... Im back to my normal routine....
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Ya its not for everyone. Ive cut kcals like crazy to get ready for a show, im still inclining 185 and im 15lbs lighter.

DW how you doin bro?
 
Distilled Water said:
Struggling! I'm on the west coast, still have about 5hrs before food. I've got 2 diet sun drops to ride the wave. Interested in my workout
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5 hrs huh.. dang. I broke my fast at 1230 and eating until 330. 3 hr window! Drank my smoothie, and ate 8.5 oz tilapia with tomato basil feta and tomato basil vinagerette. .. that probably just made you hungry.. my bad lol
 
tyga tyga said:
5 hrs huh.. dang. I broke my fast at 1230 and eating until 330. 3 hr window! Drank my smoothie, and ate 8.5 oz tilapia with tomato basil feta and tomato basil vinagerette. .. that probably just made you hungry.. my bad lol
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Lol nah I'm used to it! I'm gonna steal that recipe for when i move to my keto bulk next week though ;-)
 
This is what i use, 1 carb per serving 8g fat (1g saturated) good stuff.
 

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I have a question. Sorry if it has already been covered but i dont want to read the whole thread.

I've started morning cardio at 645 am and dont break my fast until 12pm or 1pm. Should i have BCAA's before/during the cardio session or just worry about bcaa's if i do fasted weights?

Thanks,

Doc.
 
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