The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

After reading up on this extensively, I'm working on structuring my days to include a morning wo with a break in the fast around 12-1pm
I work a 9-5 and usually eat lunch with the bosses or clients...that being said, I don't trust the fast food restaurants around me so i usually limit lunch to salads, chili, etc...

Would I lose the benefit of breaking a fast with a small chicken salad and then waiting till I get back to work to have my largest meal that I would bring with me from home?
Thx for looking
 
EasyEJL said:
thats the time span the research shows as being effective. is 20 minutes going to make a difference? probably not. An hour? maybe. Once you are doing it, so long as you don't cheat on it, the body gets used to the eating times and the hunger isn't bad.
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Funny, I went back to a more traditional 6 meals a day, with MORE calories, and am more hungry now then I EVER was on LG.. I am about to go back, as I am not sure what I was thinking going back to this 6 meal a day BS.

For me even if the actual fasting part did NOTHING. I would rather eat 2, 400calorie meals, and one 1200 calorie meal, then 6 3xx calorie meals..heh
 
bigbob21 said:
After reading up on this extensively, I'm working on structuring my days to include a morning wo with a break in the fast around 12-1pm
I work a 9-5 and usually eat lunch with the bosses or clients...that being said, I don't trust the fast food restaurants around me so i usually limit lunch to salads, chili, etc...

Would I lose the benefit of breaking a fast with a small chicken salad and then waiting till I get back to work to have my largest meal that I would bring with me from home?
Thx for looking
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Nothing wrong with that at all bro. Actually that kind of goes along with the carb back loading that is mentioned a few times in here. Go for it.
 
Frank Reynolds said:
Funny, I went back to a more traditional 6 meals a day, with MORE calories, and am more hungry now then I EVER was on LG.. I am about to go back, as I am not sure what I was thinking going back to this 6 meal a day BS.

For me even if the actual fasting part did NOTHING. I would rather eat 2, 400calorie meals, and one 1200 calorie meal, then 6 3xx calorie meals..heh
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Amen to that!
 
Hi Kleen,

this question has been bothering me a bit regarding cardio : I understand that for LISS cardio, BCAA is not required, and for med/high intensity cardio, BCAA is required (during fasting phase). But how about if I ate big PWO meals the night before? Like, at 9pm, I ate big PWO meals with hi carb & hi protein....Will I need BCAA for medium intensity cardio the next morning (6 am)? Sorry if the question is too long.

thx
 
so how many carbs should you be eating during training days and non training days? Would a day where u don't lift but do HIIT count as a training day? also, what kind of carbs should be eaten?
 
Frank Reynolds said:
How many of you have protein lower on IF then a traditional diet? Say around 1g/lb?

I need to pull calories, and am thinking of actually lowering protein by about 50g a day to start(200g total).

Good Luck DW! I will be following along.
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My protein on cardio days gets very close to 1g/lb at times. There are a lot of times that I barely hit it and that is fine. 1g/lb is all you really need anyways. I just aim for 200g a day typically which is over 1g/lb for me.
 
JayRock said:
so how many carbs should you be eating during training days and non training days? Would a day where u don't lift but do HIIT count as a training day? also, what kind of carbs should be eaten?
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Training days are the same as weight workout days. HIIT or any cardio is a non training day just like rest days. Carb levels are user and goal specific, but I generally go higher Carb on workout days and low Carb on cardio days.
 
RickRock13 said:
My protein on cardio days gets very close to 1g/lb at times. There are a lot of times that I barely hit it and that is fine. 1g/lb is all you really need anyways. I just aim for 200g a day typically which is over 1g/lb for me.
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What are your calories on each day currently?

I am thinking about dropping to 225g pro on WO, and 200g on non, I am about 190ish right now. That still gives me a bit of room to drop both another 25g if needed, if I plateau.

I am really nearing the end of my diet here, and calories are getting LOW..heh
 
Frank Reynolds said:
What are your calories on each day currently?

I am thinking about dropping to 225g pro on WO, and 200g on non, I am about 190ish right now. That still gives me a bit of room to drop both another 25g if needed, if I plateau.

I am really nearing the end of my diet here, and calories are getting LOW..heh
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I completely understand. When your Cal's are low for the day, it can be hard to hit your protein goal unless you are on low carbs and fat.

I take in around 3k on workout days where hitting the protein goal is no problem. Cardio days are harder. I take in a maximum of 1800 Cal's (sometimes as little as 1500) and I may get around 175-190g those days which is just over 1g/lb for me
 
So I've been on this (just ending my second day). I normally work out 2 hours per day, 6 days a week. I've been doing a slow cut and am relatively lean so I notice even the slightest change in my body.

For the past week I've weighed 138-140(at the very most). I weighed myself today because I looked bulkier and I'm at 143.6. Same scale, virtually same clothes, hydration levels, calories, etc.. Any explanation for this weight gain? I'm a little anal about this and don't want to go backwards. I couldn't find anything about this on the search either.

Here is what diet has looked like:

Workout Day: 5 sets of Bench Press, 4 sets of shoulders
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Cutting day: 30 minutes low intensity cardio cardio
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Am I missing something?
 
does the fast have to be 18 hours to reap the most benefits? and again, does it matter how many carbs you eat on days were you're not lifting but doing HIIT?
 
JayRock said:
does the fast have to be 18 hours to reap the most benefits? and again, does it matter how many carbs you eat on days were you're not lifting but doing HIIT?
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Generally speaking you want lower carbs on non workout days.

You are going to have to figure out what YOU need though.
 
JayRock said:
thanks, but does the fast have to be 16 hours exactly?
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That is optimal to get the most benefit with insulin levels, etc. If you only get 15 probably not a huge deal, but hitting that 16 hr mark should be your goal to get the most out of this diet
 
Kleen or Rick is like to hear your opinions on this.

I gotta drop calories after this week.

Currently I am doing 2 days at a calculated 1850 calories and 1450 on 4 days with a refeed on Saturday. I don't count trace macros ie. Protein is protein, carb is a carb source so cals are really about 4-500 higher.

The way I look at it I have 2 options drop both days by 2-250 OR take my burn days down to 1000 and leave the high days, and address then on the next plateau.
 
Frank Reynolds said:
Kleen or Rick is like to hear your opinions on this.

I gotta drop calories after this week.

Currently I am doing 2 days at a calculated 1850 calories and 1450 on 4 days with a refeed on Saturday. I don't count trace macros ie. Protein is protein, carb is a carb source so cals are really about 4-500 higher.

The way I look at it I have 2 options drop both days by 2-250 OR take my burn days down to 1000 and leave the high days, and address then on the next plateau.
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Your calories sound way too low there....
 
Frank Reynolds said:
Kleen or Rick is like to hear your opinions on this.

I gotta drop calories after this week.

Currently I am doing 2 days at a calculated 1850 calories and 1450 on 4 days with a refeed on Saturday. I don't count trace macros ie. Protein is protein, carb is a carb source so cals are really about 4-500 higher.

The way I look at it I have 2 options drop both days by 2-250 OR take my burn days down to 1000 and leave the high days, and address then on the next plateau.
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What is the reason exactly for dropping down? 1850 seems pretty low for your higher Cal day as is, and I don't know that I would go down to 1k on burn days. That would be hell I would think and I'm not sure about muscle preservation at that level. Just curious of the reasoning behind it.
 
RickRock13 said:
What is the reason exactly for dropping down? 1850 seems pretty low for your higher Cal day as is, and I don't know that I would go down to 1k on burn days. That would be hell I would think and I'm not sure about muscle preservation at that level. Just curious of the reasoning behind it.
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Damn I'm 3000 and 1700 and dropping fat pretty quickly....and I have a very slow metabolism...
 
DreamWeaver said:
Your calories sound way too low there....
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2350/1950 is hardly low, for ME.

I have a slow metabolism, and other then the gym am sedentary, and this is just how it is. I am also not 250lbs like you..hah

RickRock13 said:
What is the reason exactly for dropping down? 1850 seems pretty low for your higher Cal day as is, and I don't know that I would go down to 1k on burn days. That would be hell I would think and I'm not sure about muscle preservation at that level. Just curious of the reasoning behind it.
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Again, I don't count trace macros, so it is quite a bit higher in actuality. A typical "high day" is right around 2300 calories give or take.

Not to mention my refeed which is quite large.

Fat loss has stalled, and I need to pull calories. There is no way around it. I am just wondering which route would be best, ie. taking down the burn days, or dropping both to a smaller degree.
 
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You could take a little from each day, but I would still make sure you were above maintenance on your build days. Being above maintenance on build days is more important than being lower than normal on burn days IMO, so if you have to you can drop those burn days farther if you have to take it down farther
 
Honestly I am not concerned with build days (in the typical sense),I just use the high/low as a means of cycling calories at this point and creating an avg weekly deficit.

I want to be done with dieting by November first. My main goal is getting off the last few lbs of fat.

I think I may leave highs where they are,or do a very slight drop and drop low days by a few hundred calories. I will wait till the end of this week to see where my weight goes before planning how aggressive I want to get.
 
DreamWeaver said:
I have to change my weight lol I am down to around 200 now...
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ahh, quite a loss!

How many high/low are you at again? Also didn't you say you are walking like 10k a day?

I could cut my refeed down to a "cheat meal" and that would also bring down weekly calories considerably.
 
houstontexas said:
What is the refeed for on IF?
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You really don't need a refeed on LG as calories fluctuate enough during the regular protocol to sustain constant metabolic increase. LG followers such as my self use a refeed to come back from a very calorie and or carb restricted following. For instance. @ 207lbs I eat around 1500 cals on burn days and 2500 on build days averaging around 10% cals from carbs. I will carb up or refeed on the weekend to help bring energy and strength back up, and give the metabolism a jump start.
 
houstontexas said:
What is the refeed for on IF?
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In a sense you could say I do a refeed evry other day. I pretty much refeed on my build days and have low to no carbs on burn days. i get very depleted after a good burn day. Weight will be down and I will be very dry and appear leaner. A couple hours after my fast breaker on a build day I pretty much start filling up those glycogen stores rather quickly and get much fuller. Weight will be up too. My weight difference from a build day to burn day is usually as much as 3-4 lbs
 
Ya Rick that is the way I understood IF to work so I was confused with the mention of a refeed. I do get what you are saying though Green as you are just using a somewhat different approach. Flexibility is always great and this is just another sign that LG can give you the flexibility you're looking for and still see great results.
 
I structure my LG diet the way I structure my normal diet, except that I fast for 16hrs/eat for 8. My calories always cycled, my carbs always cycle, etc. I need a refeed as much on LG, as any other way.

As I get out of fat loss mode, calories get added back in, and I begin to focus on adding size, my refeeds will back off as they just won't be needed to the same degree.
 
Frank Reynolds said:
ahh, quite a loss!

How many high/low are you at again? Also didn't you say you are walking like 10k a day?

I could cut my refeed down to a "cheat meal" and that would also bring down weekly calories considerably.
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Up till now it's been 2.5 to 3 days but moving to 3.5 Sunday being more maintenance. Use your workout days as refeeds, just not quite as high. Refeeds are really not that effective on lean gains. You get what you need by having higher calories on wd's... gotta take care of the anabolism in this diet. That means bigger eating on wd's. You can eat an average of just around maintenance and still lose quite a bit of fat on this diet. I just started averaging around 2350 recently, I lost a lot at 2700 but some of that was due to EPI-V....
 
DreamWeaver said:
Up till now it's been 2.5 to 3 days but moving to 3.5 Sunday being more maintenance. Use your workout days as refeeds, just not quite as high. Refeeds are really not that effective on lean gains. You get what you need by having higher calories on wd's... gotta take care of the anabolism in this diet. That means bigger eating on wd's. You can eat an average of just around maintenance and still lose quite a bit of fat on this diet. I just started averaging around 2350 recently, I lost a lot at 2700 but some of that was due to EPI-V....
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Quite honestly I prefer the refeed, and over all lower calories during the week when I am going strictly for fatloss. It works better for me. I started with bigger swings(build/burn) but kind of shifted to smaller calorie fluctuations, and lower weekly (6day avg) calories, with a refeed on the 7th day.

To me "build" and "burn" days are nothing more then a form of calorie control/cycling. For me, this approach is what I will employ to a greater degree when it comes time to add mass over the winter, or the beginning of a diet/recomp.

I have been doing this for about 10-11 months now, and have played around a lot with it, figuring out what I respond best to.
 
I do build burn weeks.

Its nice. But within that week is a build burn cycle

For example 3000/2800 build weeks

And 2400/2000 burn weeks

I've stayed lean and put on mass. Best I've ever done and I eat 2x a day wenn I breakfast. Then again 6-8 hrs later
 
Frank, if you must do the refeeds then here is what I suggest, burn days nothing but aminos 10 grams every two hours until the end of the day, then have about 40 grams of protein, Lift days wake up and eat some protien if you dont do morning training. Keep eating protein and fats only until you lift. After lifting eat carbs and everything else and get in about 2500 cals. It is called ADF or Alternate day fasting.

Like everyone has mention the burn / build days are your carb cycling but if you do not want to do it that way and want to strip fat then do the way I suggested then have your 1 major refeed day without killing your progress. Everyone who has done major carb refeed with the lean gains protocol on a regular basis has stalled. I understand the desire to keep what you were doing before but it doesn't always work so you would be better off doing ADF in your case with an extreme goal..

To answer you question NO there is not any problem with lowering you protein below 200 or even 100 on a burn day as I suggested taking in 40-45 grams at night is fine... You do not even need to have any aminos either if growing muscle is not your goal right now. It sounds radical but has been proven over and over by people doing ADF. So if you want to push the envelope that is where you can do it to be done. Then do 2500 on lift days. You will burn fat like crazy and won't lose any muscle you just wont gain any muscle either. If you bump it up to 3000 cals on build days and do the aminos as suggested on burn days you may even gain a tiny bit of muscle.
 
ssbackwards said:
I do build burn weeks.

Its nice. But within that week is a build burn cycle

For example 3000/2800 build weeks

And 2400/2000 burn weeks

I've stayed lean and put on mass. Best I've ever done and I eat 2x a day wenn I breakfast. Then again 6-8 hrs later
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I've kinda toyed with the idea of doing that in my head for some time now, and I may try it out soon to see what I think. I keep saying it, but it is one of the great things of this diet. You can adjust things as you go dependng on what you see in the mirror. Those minor adjustments will keep you from having to have a huge cut, Keeping abs at christmas time will be nice!
 
I have kind of done that too not intentionally but one week I find myself eating a lot more. The next I eat less automatically.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Frank, if you must do the refeeds then here is what I suggest, burn days nothing but aminos 10 grams every two hours until the end of the day, then have about 40 grams of protein, Lift days wake up and eat some protien if you dont do morning training. Keep eating protein and fats only until you lift. After lifting eat carbs and everything else and get in about 2500 cals. It is called ADF or Alternate day fasting.

Like everyone has mention the burn / build days are your carb cycling but if you do not want to do it that way and want to strip fat then do the way I suggested then have your 1 major refeed day without killing your progress. Everyone who has done major carb refeed with the lean gains protocol on a regular basis has stalled. I understand the desire to keep what you were doing before but it doesn't always work so you would be better off doing ADF in your case with an extreme goal..

To answer you question NO there is not any problem with lowering you protein below 200 or even 100 on a burn day as I suggested taking in 40-45 grams at night is fine... You do not even need to have any aminos either if growing muscle is not your goal right now. It sounds radical but has been proven over and over by people doing ADF. So if you want to push the envelope that is where you can do it to be done. Then do 2500 on lift days. You will burn fat like crazy and won't lose any muscle you just wont gain any muscle either. If you bump it up to 3000 cals on build days and do the aminos as suggested on burn days you may even gain a tiny bit of muscle.
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I may try that, but I think where we are getting our lines crossed is calories on LG/IF don't need to be +-20%. That is a good rec. for the "lean gaining/recomp" aspect but for dieting, with the main purpose of fat loss, that is less then ideal. MB has a different protocol for this, as would be expected. The principles don't need to change, just because the goal/macros change. Recomping is really only one aspect of LG..IMO.
 
I do it all on keto

5% of my total diet is carbs. Works the best. The carbs on lean gains don't work for me. Allows me to ove splurge and makes me sick every day.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Frank, if you must do the refeeds then here is what I suggest, burn days nothing but aminos 10 grams every two hours until the end of the day, then have about 40 grams of protein, Lift days wake up and eat some protien if you dont do morning training. Keep eating protein and fats only until you lift. After lifting eat carbs and everything else and get in about 2500 cals. It is called ADF or Alternate day fasting.

Like everyone has mention the burn / build days are your carb cycling but if you do not want to do it that way and want to strip fat then do the way I suggested then have your 1 major refeed day without killing your progress. Everyone who has done major carb refeed with the lean gains protocol on a regular basis has stalled. I understand the desire to keep what you were doing before but it doesn't always work so you would be better off doing ADF in your case with an extreme goal..

To answer you question NO there is not any problem with lowering you protein below 200 or even 100 on a burn day as I suggested taking in 40-45 grams at night is fine... You do not even need to have any aminos either if growing muscle is not your goal right now. It sounds radical but has been proven over and over by people doing ADF. So if you want to push the envelope that is where you can do it to be done. Then do 2500 on lift days. You will burn fat like crazy and won't lose any muscle you just wont gain any muscle either. If you bump it up to 3000 cals on build days and do the aminos as suggested on burn days you may even gain a tiny bit of muscle.
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Yah about 200 - 250 grams on wd's for carbs works ok for me. I am very low on my burn days...the big refeed seemed to backfire, I am done with it. I can see maybe going up higher on one of your wd's for effect though, I plan on doing one where I am about 4-500 grams the night before a contest. Then just maintain with moderate carbs throught the day. Plus when I refeed on lean gains I need to get some proteins and fats in as well. I actually look better fasted than when I get a lot of carbs in, so I need some time to flush out a bit. The next morning I look great so all I have to do is to eat a little throughout the day to maintain that look.
 
DreamWeaver said:
Yah about 200 - 250 grams on wd's for carbs works ok for me. I am very low on my burn days...the big refeed seemed to backfire, I am done with it. I can see maybe going up higher on one of your wd's for effect though, I plan on doing one where I am about 4-500 grams the night before a contest. Then just maintain with moderate carbs throught the day. Plus when I refeed on lean gains I need to get some proteins and fats in as well. I actually look better fasted than when I get a lot of carbs in, so I need some time to flush out a bit. The next morning I look great so all I have to do is to eat a little throughout the day to maintain that look.
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Well logically if your having 3 days above maintenance with adequate carbs, and a refeed that is going to put you in a surplus for the week.

My diet is geared towards it. I have 2 high days which are at maintenanceand only 125 of carbs, 4 low with 40g, and a refeed. Without a refeed I am flat as ****.

Since I am on kind of a time crunch I don't want to make any drastic changes, but once I am done I will play around with having more carbs on high days and eliminate the refeed.
 
ssbackwards said:
I do it all on keto

5% of my total diet is carbs. Works the best. The carbs on lean gains don't work for me. Allows me to ove splurge and makes me sick every day.
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really depends on carb source. Sure i'd get that way on oatmeal or regular bread, but from potatoes, brown rice and fruits I never feel sick from it.
 
no matter what carbs i eat i over indulge **** weighing that **** . EAsier for me the other way plus once i have a potato its all down hill from there lol. i heat up sweet potato in microwave.

then in a bowl mix organic honey, cinnamon and pumpkin spice,

cut up sweet potatoes into discs and glaze them with the honey and spices and bake for 20 min OMFG i can eat like 5 whole sweet potatoes and still be hungry
 
What do your workouts look like on build days? I thought I read somewhere that you are only supposed to do like 3-4 sets of main muscle at high weights) then the same with alternative muscle of choice. That seems too easy and I'm no where close to failure. I'm in the gym for like 30 minutes and done and I'm used to 2 hours +
 
mxer657 said:
What do your workouts look like on build days? I thought I read somewhere that you are only supposed to do like 3-4 sets of main muscle at high weights) then the same with alternative muscle of choice. That seems too easy and I'm no where close to failure. I'm in the gym for like 30 minutes and done and I'm used to 2 hours +
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Where did you hear this? That doesn't sound accurate at all. I haven't seen anywhere that says your training on lean gains should be any different than on any other diet
 
RickRock13 said:
Where did you hear this? That doesn't sound accurate at all. I haven't seen anywhere that says your training on lean gains should be any different than on any other diet
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He talks about his preference for training, I don't really remember specifics of it.

I personally hate sticking any 1 training to any 1 diet. Train how you want to train IMO Tailor your diet around your own training, etc. Ie if you want to train 4 days a week, train 4 days a week, and reduce the amount of surplus on "build days" a little to account for the added day, if you need to and are picking up fat.. Etc. It is all about adaptation.
 
Has anyone got experience of LG while training for a powerlifting competition? I have been doing LG for 3 months now and lost 22lbs while retaining most of my strength. I need to lose another 6lbs by end of November whilst committing to an intense training schedule. At the moment I am running it +/-20% for build and burn days respectively.
3600kcals on training days, 2400 or less on off days, training every other day I am also doing minimum cardio to keep strength up. I have stalled at 237lbs for about 3 months now. Any ideas as to how to get this last 6lbs off? I eat minimal carbs on off days, only getting them from one meal, in the 100gm range. On training days I eat upto 300gms carbs depending on that day's training intensity. If anyone in the same situation has any input or experience they can share I would like to hear it
 
If it was me I would cut calories, drop the 6lbs in the next 3-4 weeks, and then maintain with the typical +20/-20 until comp time.

At 1.5-2lbs a week you should not lose much strength at all, and that will give you a SOLID amount of time to adjust to the loss, and likely even progress on strength coming in.
 
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