The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

[EasyEJL]

If there are free fatty acids and insulin rises it gets repackaged to a certain degree But there's not just one or 2 things its NPY, Agouti, GIP, Thyroid, leptin, insulin, glucagon,

but there aren't human studies backing that. you are starting from what seems reasonable, and then theorizing a cascade of events that likely happens afterwards. But without studies showing that those other reactions do follow both in the case of carbohydrate ingestion and fat ingestion, its still just a guess. Even in that diabetes study, its unclear whether it was diabetics they used, type 1 diabetics or type 2, and whether that 1 hour after meal testing was done with the meal immediately following the 20 hour fast. So its hard to say how relevant any of it is.

I think a lot of us make things more complex than necessary

 

[ssbackwards]

Its not about picking chosing a dietary choice its about understanding all parts of dieting to ensure you can diet properly and effectivly

I personally have learned a lot on my own about this which makes it very easy for me to lean out and drop bodyfat extremely easy. Adding fasting into the mix also just adds more to it all in terms of CPT1 expression and PPARy attenuation and UCP3 activation. So ontop of what's mentioned you add that. Its crazy to place things all together just to learn about 1 diet let alone the hundreds out there

 

[ssbackwards]

I'm making it complex to burn fat as effiecently as I can. However I love the science behind it. So I'm in it all to learn. Then apply.

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm making it complex to burn fat as effiecently as I can. However I love the science behind it. So I'm in it all to learn. Then apply.

yeah, me too, but when I see a chain of things I think leaves things so they don't work, but anectdotally it does work and I don't have anything thorough in studies to show that it doesn't, I tend to just leave it alone.

 

[ssbackwards]

I believe the study is in euglycemics humans which shows GIP stimulates glucagon release which I assume why some people see normal and not super low sugars on a meter on the diet. And in terms of diabetics GIP hyperglycemia tends to lower the expression of fat induced GIP which is why in heavier individuals it may be better to start with a normal diet ratjer tjen a keto

But its known that GIP is stimulated by fat and carbs in humans from the small intestine. Hence questions and trying to learn

Just like leptin is the main regulator of fat loss in terms of thyroidal controll
Thus is the nature of science and understanding it to break plateaus without cutting to many calories is why its needed to be understood

 

[mattrag]

It's a good 6-8 weeks out, if you can wait then cool, but there's also the possibility of delays as well. Just trying to watch out for you.

Thanks for looking out buddy!

 

[mkretz]

hey guys iw as thinkin of trying this out but right now i cant lift for a while so i figured it woudl be a good tiem to experiment, however I am not trying to lose weight since I am very skinny, bout 150, but just trying to maintain waht I ahve while I am not able to lift....... I was thinkin 2200 cals if im not doin any type of cardio and maybe like 2500 If i do a little cardio ( 20 min low intensity) I ate last at 930- so id break fast at 130 with 60% cals - 130 pro, 99 carb, 45 fat, then round maybe 530 ish ill have bout 25% cals, 62 pro, 25 carb, 17 fat, and then roudn 9 do 50 pro 15 carb 10 fat (15% cals) then do it all over again? thanks for the input.......


cant lift heavy due to overtraineing, really bad, instrusctions from docotor

 

[Ziricote]

Bump, I'm going to be training 6 days a week (3 weights days and 3 cardio/boxing days) but my boxing sessions are at 2100-2230 Monday, 1430-1630 Wednesday, and 1630-1800 Friday. My lifting sessions are probably going to be early morning sometime between 0700 and 0900.

My question is: does it matter if my fasting period isn't always 16 hours long to suit my boxing sessions or should I try to do my weight sessions roughly 24 hours after boxing to keep my diet more uniform?

Great thread btw!

 

[EasyEJL]

Breakfast today had to have been close to 2000 calories, around 130g protein, maybe 15g fat, and the rest carbs.

 

[james122]

Breakfast today had to have been close to 2000 calories, around 130g protein, maybe 15g fat, and the rest carbs.

what time is "breakfast" at do you train in the am?

 

[EasyEJL]

what time is "breakfast" at do you train in the am?

Breakfast is at noon. I usually train 7-8am, but today being a holiday I trained right before eating

 

[TurningGreen]

Breakfast today had to have been close to 2000 calories, around 130g protein, maybe 15g fat, and the rest carbs.

Damn bro, that is a serious grub fest

 

[MrKleen73]

hey guys iw as thinkin of trying this out but right now i cant lift for a while so i figured it woudl be a good tiem to experiment, however I am not trying to lose weight since I am very skinny, bout 150, but just trying to maintain waht I ahve while I am not able to lift....... I was thinkin 2200 cals if im not doin any type of cardio and maybe like 2500 If i do a little cardio ( 20 min low intensity) I ate last at 930- so id break fast at 130 with 60% cals - 130 pro, 99 carb, 45 fat, then round maybe 530 ish ill have bout 25% cals, 62 pro, 25 carb, 17 fat, and then roudn 9 do 50 pro 15 carb 10 fat (15% cals) then do it all over again? thanks for the input.......


cant lift heavy due to overtraineing, really bad, instrusctions from docotor

Bump, I'm going to be training 6 days a week (3 weights days and 3 cardio/boxing days) but my boxing sessions are at 2100-2230 Monday, 1430-1630 Wednesday, and 1630-1800 Friday. My lifting sessions are probably going to be early morning sometime between 0700 and 0900.

My question is: does it matter if my fasting period isn't always 16 hours long to suit my boxing sessions or should I try to do my weight sessions roughly 24 hours after boxing to keep my diet more uniform?

Great thread btw!

Not sure I understand the question you need to tell us when you 8/16 hour window would be in the first place for us to be able to offer much of a suggestion However honestly on a cardio day like boxing I would extend the fast if need be. Plus it does not always have to be the same hours it just helps due to the hunger learning a pattern so you aren't sitting around hungry. Bottom line though fasting say 14 hours one day and 18 the next is not going to be detrimental just get your cals in during the eating window even if it is shorter.

 

[mkretz]

woudl this still be beneficial if im jsut trying to maintin my weight for the next month or so? Because I am up at 530-6 every morning and have to elave right away and dont want to get up any earlier, it is jsut alot more conveinient to not eat until 130 or so (last meal at 930 the night before) when I am home and can cook, rather than trying to make all my meals the night before and lose even more sleep........Also, anyone have any trouble getting cals in in such a short tiem? feel liek ur stuffing yourself, esp. the fast breaker? I mena I like eating so much but feel al ittle sick afterwards right now

 

[ScottyDoc]

PRODUCT UPDATE​

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[TurningGreen]

woudl this still be beneficial if im jsut trying to maintin my weight for the next month or so? Because I am up at 530-6 every morning and have to elave right away and dont want to get up any earlier, it is jsut alot more conveinient to not eat until 130 or so (last meal at 930 the night before) when I am home and can cook, rather than trying to make all my meals the night before and lose even more sleep........Also, anyone have any trouble getting cals in in such a short tiem? feel liek ur stuffing yourself, esp. the fast breaker? I mena I like eating so much but feel al ittle sick afterwards right now

Its all about customization bro, don't work for Lean Gains...make Lean Gains work for you. You'd be surprised how much you can tweak this protocol, yet see amazing results.

 

[mkretz]

Its all about customization bro, don't work for Lean Gains...make Lean Gains work for you. You'd be surprised how much you can tweak this protocol, yet see amazing results.

well aiming for aout 2500 cals, what I do is last meal at 930....eat at 130, about 60% cals (1500_ then have another meal about 600 cals around 630 and another around 500 around 930 ..does this sound ok?

 

[fueledpassion]

food for thought not sure if posted...

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Interesting.

but how does all this relate to IF diet, and the link i posted above?

Well, I'm no expert but I do know a few things regarding this.

1) The LG diet does not increase insulin, so to speak. It increases insulin sensitivity. Basically, I understand it like this: when your body is releasing lots and lots of insulin several times per day, you might lose some effectiveness from it. So the point of fasting 16hrs everyday is to make your insulin more effective by increasing your body's sensitivity to it. Ever taken a PH or steroid? Do you not recall that the first time you did it your gains were far better than the average? And each time you took it thereafter the gains were less effective? Your sensitivity to the hormones went down, thus, the results were not as stellar. I could be wrong, but as I have read it on LG website I've gathered this much from it.

2) Ole Mark or whatever his name is (the guy who created the LG diet) has a really long and inclusive article particularly on leptins and leptin control and the benefits of using the LG diet in regards to this. Just go to his website and read up on it please.

3) Bottom line is - do the LG diet, lol. It works. At the very least you could do it for 6 weeks then go back to your typical diet plan and see which you wind up sticking with. my bet is on LeanGains...

 

[fueledpassion]

Its all about customization bro, don't work for Lean Gains...make Lean Gains work for you. You'd be surprised how much you can tweak this protocol, yet see amazing results.

Dang bro, good post. Good freakin post! This is why LG dominates other diets. It's customizable to taylor to each man's needs!

 

[EasyEJL]

Well, I'm no expert but I do know a few things regarding this.

1) The LG diet does not increase insulin, so to speak. It increases insulin sensitivity. Basically, I understand it like this: when your body is releasing lots and lots of insulin several times per day, you might lose some effectiveness from it. So the point of fasting 16hrs everyday is to make your insulin more effective by increasing your body's sensitivity to it. Ever taken a PH or steroid? Do you not recall that the first time you did it your gains were far better than the average? And each time you took it thereafter the gains were less effective? Your sensitivity to the hormones went down, thus, the results were not as stellar. I could be wrong, but as I have read it on LG website I've gathered this much from it.

fasting increases insulin sensitivity. insulin sensitivity is your body putting out the right amount of insulin for the amount of carbohydrates ingested. Not too much, not too little. generally insulin insensitivty is from too much in carbohydrates too often, with your body having insulin pulses perpetually overlapping each other to where eventually it continues to output more insulin than you need for what you ate.

 

[fueledpassion]

fasting increases insulin sensitivity. insulin sensitivity is your body putting out the right amount of insulin for the amount of carbohydrates ingested. Not too much, not too little. generally insulin insensitivty is from too much in carbohydrates too often, with your body having insulin pulses perpetually overlapping each other to where eventually it continues to output more insulin than you need for what you ate.

Ok, so part of my thought process was correct in believing that several meals per day could create too much output of insulin..while I was incorrect about insulin sensitivity...

 

[EasyEJL]

Ok, so part of my thought process was correct in believing that several meals per day could create too much output of insulin..while I was incorrect about insulin sensitivity...

yeah really more or less the same thing.

the issue of insulin bleed is definitely there, when you cause a new insulin spike/release before the last insulin spike/release has all cleared. And also in general over-intake of carbs goes along those lines, particualrly simple sugars. Thats why i hate that people still try to push those post workout shakes with 100g of simple carbs + 50g protein down. recipe for type 2 diabetes, and getting fat.

Insulin insensitivity is a bit different than what people talk about with receptor downgrading, its more the issue of sensing for how much to release is wrong. Where receptor insensitivity means you are still making the "normal" amount but your body isn't using it all.

 

[Quil]

Quick question for you guys on how you're calculating your daily calories...

I'm using the livestrong/daily plate calorie calculator, and it tells me I need roughly 2000 cals a day minimum on a cut. Should that be 2000 calories total? The reason I ask is because as I input my food for the day and then start to add in my exercise, the amount of "calories remaining" begins to go back up. So does that mean I need 2000 "net" calories a day, or am I looking at this wrong? It is telling me that I'm burning 640 cals via exercise and intaking 2074, for a net of 1434, and that I need another 600+ cals...

Does this sound right? I'm trying to finish cutting now, but I was always under the impression that you just calculated your daily cals using maintenance cals minus 500-750 or so...never considered having to add in cals burned via exercise.

Anyone here using livestrong/daily plate?

 

[EasyEJL]

but the maintenance is usually calculated as "lightly active" which just includes normal walking around and day to day activity, not exercising specifically. I've never used livestrong's calculators though but i'd think at 190 2000 net calories is around right for a cut, and your real maintenance is more like 2500-2900

 

[fueledpassion]

yeah I think so too. Using calculators, I figured my maintenance amount to be around 2400 calories but it's kinda hogwash too. I think my maintenance is truly around 2000 calories/day because I've been eating roughly 1800-2000 calories and have held weight (albeit burned some fat too). I lost an initial 6-7lbs since on LG about 2 months ago but have had a steady recomping an lingering around 147-150lbs. But being on cycle I find it really hard to incorporate severe caloric deficit into the LG diet. Eating like a bird and fasting for 16hrs doesn't match too well, lol. So I've limited myself to 'burn' and 'build' days kinda like RickRock did. I only have 3 days out of the week where I eat around 1500 calories/day. The rest I eat anywhere from 2000-2500 for maintenance. This seems to work so far as my burn days are cardio and abs only..

 

[MrKleen73]

Just my basic starting point estimate for most people to find maintenance calories.

Metabolism Type x body weight = Slow 12-13, Moderate 13-14, Fast 14-15
SO a 200 lb guy with slow would be between 2400-2600 , Moderate 2600-2800 cals, Fast 2800- 3000
Then for recomp is 20% under and 20% over so for a 2500 calorie maintanance 2000 on burn day and 3000 on build day

For a lean bulk my estimates would change to 10% under maintenance on burn / rest days and 30% over on workout days. Notice I leave the 40% gap between the 2 days but just move it up a bit.


MKretz you will be fine and the way you have it lined up is fine. With you not working out right now you shouldn't have any problems other than what you would in any other situation not working out. IE you look like you are naturally thin if this is the case and you have built some muscle there is a decent chance you will lose some of it regardless of any diet while off. However, it will rebound quickly. You want to maintain the size without lifting and have a fast metabolism then I would eat slightly over your maintenance and you will retain more although your cuts may diminish. Yet if naturally lean they will return faster than lost weight will when you start lifting. Just food for thought.

 

[RickRock13]

yeah I think so too. Using calculators, I figured my maintenance amount to be around 2400 calories but it's kinda hogwash too. I think my maintenance is truly around 2000 calories/day because I've been eating roughly 1800-2000 calories and have held weight (albeit burned some fat too). I lost an initial 6-7lbs since on LG about 2 months ago but have had a steady recomping an lingering around 147-150lbs. But being on cycle I find it really hard to incorporate severe caloric deficit into the LG diet. Eating like a bird and fasting for 16hrs doesn't match too well, lol. So I've limited myself to 'burn' and 'build' days kinda like RickRock did. I only have 3 days out of the week where I eat around 1500 calories/day. The rest I eat anywhere from 2000-2500 for maintenance. This seems to work so far as my burn days are cardio and abs only..

Yeh man being in a big caloric defecit continuously is no fun at all. Doing "build days" and "burn days" has seemed to be the answer at least for me as well as some others. It looks like it is working pretty well for you too, and it is a great thing how you can customize lean gains to your personal specific goals and diet requirements. I am constantly changing things on this diet it seems like. Every couple weeks I've been re-evaluating my progress and adjusting from there. It has been nice being able to adjust to keep bodyfat at bay while adding in LBM. I've been tmroughly the same weight for a month now (maybe up 1lb) but have continued to lean somewhat. This diet is the sh1t!!

 

[mkretz]

Just my basic starting point estimate for most people to find maintenance calories.

Metabolism Type x body weight = Slow 12-13, Moderate 13-14, Fast 14-15
SO a 200 lb guy with slow would be between 2400-2600 , Moderate 2600-2800 cals, Fast 2800- 3000
Then for recomp is 20% under and 20% over so for a 2500 calorie maintanance 2000 on burn day and 3000 on build day

For a lean bulk my estimates would change to 10% under maintenance on burn / rest days and 30% over on workout days. Notice I leave the 40% gap between the 2 days but just move it up a bit.


MKretz you will be fine and the way you have it lined up is fine. With you not working out right now you shouldn't have any problems other than what you would in any other situation not working out. IE you look like you are naturally thin if this is the case and you have built some muscle there is a decent chance you will lose some of it regardless of any diet while off. However, it will rebound quickly. You want to maintain the size without lifting and have a fast metabolism then I would eat slightly over your maintenance and you will retain more although your cuts may diminish. Yet if naturally lean they will return faster than lost weight will when you start lifting. Just food for thought.

thanks alot i really appreciate it....im not srue exactl what my maintainence is so im playin aroudn right now right aroudn that 2500 calorie mark to see hwo i do

 

[JayRock]

So during the first part of the day where you fast for the first 8 hours or so upon waking up, is it okay to have energy drinks? Do they have to be zero calories? Also, what about vitamin tabs or mints that I have when I wake up that have like 5gms of calories, are those ok or not?

 

[RickRock13]

So during the first part of the day where you fast for the first 8 hours or so upon waking up, is it okay to have energy drinks? Do they have to be zero calories? Also, what about vitamin tabs or mints that I have when I wake up that have like 5gms of calories, are those ok or not?

The idea is to take in zero or near zero Cal's during your fast to avoid spiking insulin, so energy drinks are out. You can do a preworkout drink though. Most of those are zero or very little calories. There is some small calorie amounts that you can take in though. Things like sugarfree gum, crystal lite drink mix, fish oil, are all ok. Gum is around 5 Cal's stick and crystal lite is around 5 Cal's per serving also. Fish oil is about 10 Cal's per cap I think. Just keep it within those boundaries during your fast bro

 

[ScottyDoc]

The idea is to take in zero or near zero Cal's during your fast to avoid spiking insulin, so energy drinks are out. You can do a preworkout drink though. Most of those are zero or very little calories. There is some small calorie amounts that you can take in though. Things like sugarfree gum, crystal lite drink mix, fish oil, are all ok. Gum is around 5 Cal's stick and crystal lite is around 5 Cal's per serving also. Fish oil is about 10 Cal's per cap I think. Just keep it within those boundaries during your fast bro

What about a zero - 15 calorie energy drink, with 1g or less of sugar?

 

[JayRock]

Are energy drinks with 10 calories or less ok? I've read and what exactly is the science behind this diet and how does it compare to something like CKD? I must say, i'm only five days in, and I love it!

 

[TurningGreen]

Are energy drinks with 10 calories or less ok? I've read and what exactly is the science behind this diet and how does it compare to something like CKD? I must say, i'm only five days in, and I love it!

I was drinking the 10cal rockstars when I started LG. Lots of flavor, insignificant cals, and energy. I didn't notice any negative side effects from drinking them (I only drank one per day).

 

[EasyEJL]

What about a zero - 15 calorie energy drink, with 1g or less of sugar?

thats fine, the sort of accepted threshhold for breaking the fast is in the 40-50 calorie range. below that doesn't elucidate the same responses.

 

[RickRock13]

thats fine, the sort of accepted threshhold for breaking the fast is in the 40-50 calorie range. below that doesn't elucidate the same responses.

Yeh that's pretty much the way I remember it. A maximum of 40-50 Cal's in a 2 hour span I believe is what keeps you from breaking your fast. I try to stay way under that though. The only Cal's I take in fasted are from a couple caps of fish oil and some crystal lite drink mix. I might see 25-30 Cal's total over the entire fast.

 

[mkretz]

i drinka lot of xtend and bulk bcaas mixed in some sort of sugar free drink......hurting my wallet i must say.....

 

[JayRock]

should HIIT cardio be done during the fasted state or not?

 

[fueledpassion]

What about a zero - 15 calorie energy drink, with 1g or less of sugar?

Thats fine. I usually take in anywhere from 10-20 calories during my fast due to sweetners and stuff

 

[quigley]

Hi everyone,

I'm in the middle of a bulk and I find the eat every 2-3 hours during the day constricting and annoying... so love the look of this diet. My hunger doesnt really naturally awaken till 11am-12pm anyway, even if im up early, so it suits me perfectly.

Quick question.. if i wanted to bulk (naturally) on LG, do I eat a calorie surplus on training days and at maintenance on non training days? I was thinking of finishing my bulk in 4 weeks to start cutting for summer (australia) but maybe I'd be better served to chuck the bulk now and use LG for a recomp?

In terms of what you eat after the fast, how tight are you guys with planning the meals/macros/calories etc or do you just tuck into good healthy calorie dense foods (making sure you get enough protein) until your somewhere around your calorie mark for the day?

cheers,
nate

 

[ScottyDoc]

thats fine, the sort of accepted threshhold for breaking the fast is in the 40-50 calorie range. below that doesn't elucidate the same responses.

Thanks, that is what I thought, but I know you guys are way up on the more science involved and behind it all, so thanks, very good to know! I will be starting my LG protocol after my big super cut which will end on December 1st, so starting to pay more attention and ask more questions, need to be prepared, I'm a plan way in advanced kinda guy!

 

[ScottyDoc]

FREE FINAFLEX G8 Samples...

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[fueledpassion]

Hi everyone,

I'm in the middle of a bulk and I find the eat every 2-3 hours during the day constricting and annoying... so love the look of this diet. My hunger doesnt really naturally awaken till 11am-12pm anyway, even if im up early, so it suits me perfectly.

Quick question.. if i wanted to bulk (naturally) on LG, do I eat a calorie surplus on training days and at maintenance on non training days? I was thinking of finishing my bulk in 4 weeks to start cutting for summer (australia) but maybe I'd be better served to chuck the bulk now and use LG for a recomp?

In terms of what you eat after the fast, how tight are you guys with planning the meals/macros/calories etc or do you just tuck into good healthy calorie dense foods (making sure you get enough protein) until your somewhere around your calorie mark for the day?

cheers,
nate

I am in no way saying this is the best approach, but here's mine...

If I perform a fasted training session (usually mid-morning to early afternoon), I focus on:
Break fast - high protein levels (50-75g) and moderate carb levels (50-75g) and typical fat levels of < 20g.
2nd Meal - Modest on all macros
3rd meal - About 40-50g protein, high carb intake, and normal fat intake (roughly 10-20g)

When I am training on a non-fasted state (one pre-workout meal) then I do this:

Break Fast - Modest everything. Usually 30-50g protein, up to 50g carbs, and 10g of fats or less.
Post workout - High protein, modest carbs, modest fats.
3rd meal - Moderate protein, high carbs (100+g), and high fats.

And lastly, the 2 pre-workout meal protocol:

Break fast - high protein, low carbs, low fats
Pre-workout - Modest on all macros
Post-workout - high in everything (75+g protein, 100+g carbs, 20+ g fats)

Granted, I currently am on a cutting cycle. So I'm restricting my calories to 1500-1800 calories on burn days and around 2000-2200 on maintenance days. Nonetheless, if I were bulking, I'd just have maintenance days around 2000 calories, and build days (around 2500-2700 calories). So basically I'd keep the same protocol just up the calories in each meal.

And on some days such as today, I will train twice in one day. Legs in morning and chest in evening. When this is the case, I just eat as much as possible.

 

[JayRock]

I still can't find the reasoning or science backing the diet. Why does fasting like this for the specific amounts of time and eating accordingly to that work so well? Does the fast have to last exactly 16 hours? Is 15 not enough?

 

[fueledpassion]

U dont have to believe it. Regardless, it still works. Its a well known fact that bodybuilders who are willing to try new things have better results in their quest for epicness. I read an article about that and then stepped out and tried the diet. It worked.

 

[EasyEJL]

I still can't find the reasoning or science backing the diet. Why does fasting like this for the specific amounts of time and eating accordingly to that work so well? Does the fast have to last exactly 16 hours? Is 15 not enough?

I'm not sure why you can't find it. go here Invalid Link Removed and read. and if you want to search for studies here's a pile done on Ramadan fasting by Muslims which is a somewhat similar pattern

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[DreamWeaver]

Invalid Link Removed April 2011

July 2011

All the proof I need...

 

[TurningGreen]

I still can't find the reasoning or science backing the diet. Why does fasting like this for the specific amounts of time and eating accordingly to that work so well? Does the fast have to last exactly 16 hours? Is 15 not enough?

This is a brave post, like stepping into a den of hungry lions. BRO! most of us in here are advocates of lean gains and have had great success with it. No need in here for any arguments, just good old fashioned learning! I believe coorslight has an interesting thread on the subject you'd like to discuss.

 

[JayRock]

ok i respect all of that. I can see that it does work, it's working now. I just like to know the reasoning behind things being that i'm just analytical and all. But, does the fast have to be exactly 16 hours?

 

[EasyEJL]

ok i respect all of that. I can see that it does work, it's working now. I just like to know the reasoning behind things being that i'm just analytical and all. But, does the fast have to be exactly 16 hours?

thats the time span the research shows as being effective. is 20 minutes going to make a difference? probably not. An hour? maybe. Once you are doing it, so long as you don't cheat on it, the body gets used to the eating times and the hunger isn't bad.

 

[juiceless_joe]

So during the first part of the day where you fast for the first 8 hours or so upon waking up, is it okay to have energy drinks? Do they have to be zero calories? Also, what about vitamin tabs or mints that I have when I wake up that have like 5gms of calories, are those ok or not?

I would go for a good toothbrushing instead.