bcaa turn into glucose?

[schizm]

Well thank you.

Typical Day
20 Grams of BCAA (consume pre/peri/post) + 5grams Alanine PRE + 5 grams Leucine POST
Running like mad day
Toss ALL of the above and drink Pre+Peri+Pwo

nearly similar to what I do...15g pre/peri (higher ratio of leucine on both), then scoop of protein post....(hour later, solid meal)...riddle me this, do you workout first thing in the morning, fasted by chance...?

 

[Whacked]

Haha how'd you guess?

nearly similar to what I do...15g pre/peri (higher ratio of leucine on both), then scoop of protein post....(hour later, solid meal)...riddle me this, do you workout first thing in the morning, fasted by chance...?

 

[OrganicShadow]

Thanks everyone - good posts here. The whole thing never quite clicked for me but I have a pretty good grasp on whats going on now.

 

[schizm]

Haha how'd you guess?

I've got that 'sixth sense' about such things Plus seems like we're in the minority....Have you tried using any of the Nitrated Bcaa's? Notice any difference in terms of results, better recovery, etc..?

 

[Whacked]

No sir. Should I?

I've got that 'sixth sense' about such things Plus seems like we're in the minority....Have you tried using any of the Nitrated Bcaa's? Notice any difference in terms of results, better recovery, etc..?

 

[EasyEJL]

I've only noticed more pumps from the nitrates plus maybe slightly better workout endurance

 

[schizm]

No sir. Should I?

IDK, I ask, bc I haven't used them so just seeing if you had...have been looking into them...most feedback seems to be what Easy says (below)

I've only noticed more pumps from the nitrates plus maybe slightly better workout endurance

Good feedback, thanks man! Did you use Powershock or one of MuscleFeast's products (anabolic Ignite or Nitrated bcaa) or other? what dosing did you use? (total grams of nitrate)

 

[EasyEJL]

I use powershock, and just a single scoop

Invalid Link Removed

i'll likely keep buying it, i'm pretty happy using that plus my choice of separate stim as a pre/peri workout product

 

[prld2gr8ns]

So they have more caloric value then....

No, they have less.

You just said they don't have to be cleaved by pepsin, trypsin, chymotrypsin, and the brush border enzymes. They also don't have to be secondary active transported with Na+ to enter the enterocyte and later the bloodstream. By bypassing these steps, the only logical conclusion is that the TEF is lowered, so they have more net caloric value.

You do realize that a calorie is a measurement of heat, correct? Because free-form amino acids are not peptide-bound, they do not have the same ability to create as much heat as the aforementioned peptide-bound aminos.

And you do realize that the kcals found on labeled foods are for calories that the human body can utilize, correct? Otherwise splenda would have calories.

A peptide bond can release up to 4 kcals per mole if my memory serves me right (lol it better, i just took an exam on this stuff). Either way, breaking a bond requires energy. This is basic gen chem here. By removing this step, we are lowering the TEF.

I honestly see no argument for ffAAs having lower calories. It's completely nonsensical. They either have equal calories (I'm not talking about specific heat capacity, I'm talking about what the body utilizes), or have slightly higher net calories due to the hydrolysis step being bypassed, along with the release of the aforementioned enzymes and secondary active transport mechanisms.

Back to the topic of AA's and heat combustion. The measurement of heat combustion for primary AA's (assuming the end product is 100% urea) is as follows:

Invalid Link Removed

Metabolizable energy is a little different and various from person to person, assuming different biological end products in urea, ammonia, creatinine etc are produced. But in general falls around 5 -5.5 kcal/gram for Valine, Leucine and Isoleucine.

 

[JudoJosh]

agreed.
also, bcaa's aren't directly absorbed by the muscles, they can be broken down and used by your liver for energy, depends on quite a few factors.

No they are directly absorbed by the muslce when taken in supplement form (free form BCAAs)

who assumes 10g of bcaa's and 10g of wms are utilized in the same fashion?
your body COULD utilize them in the same fashion, but it depends on what is going on in your body (low blood glucose could trigger a similar utilization of these if they were ingested at the time of the low bg levels).

Can you please explain how?

As for them not being equal, I was merely illustrating that not all calories are equal. Again we don't consume caloires we consume food. We are not calorie measuring devices.

Please see below diagram

Invalid Link Removed

Typically BCAAs are oxidized in the liver and then sent to the muscle where it can be used for protein synthesis or energy. When free form aminos are taken they go directly into the muscles.

Am I missing something? Or misunderstanding something here? (Honest question)

 

[OrganicShadow]

I love when JudoJosh posts.

 

[OrganicShadow]

^Wow!!! What a steal!!!

Now...GTFO

 

[Bnatural]

No they are directly absorbed by the muslce when taken in supplement form (free form BCAAs)

Can you please explain how?

As for them not being equal, I was merely illustrating that not all calories are equal. Again we don't consume caloires we consume food. We are not calorie measuring devices.

Please see below diagram

Invalid Link Removed

Typically BCAAs are oxidized in the liver and then sent to the muscle where it can be used for protein synthesis or energy. When free form aminos are taken they go directly into the muscles.

Am I missing something? Or misunderstanding something here? (Honest question)

depth depth depth.
since this doesn't get saved unless someone else responds, i'll bookmark this and go into it later
in short, FF-bcaa can be converted into glucose, but it depends on what is in the liver/body when consumed.

 

[JudoJosh]

depth depth depth.
since this doesn't get saved unless someone else responds, i'll bookmark this and go into it later
in short, FF-bcaa can be converted into glucose, but it depends on what is in the liver/body when consumed.

At no point did I suggest that BCAAs can't be converted to glucose.

My statement was when in a fasted state if one was to ingest a small amount of ff-aminos, the aminos would go directly to the muscle to be metabolized. If your body wants to break down aminos for glucose than it would have to go through the steps required to get it from the muscle, the BCCAs themseleves aren't necessarily being used for energy in your entire body. The aminos themselves won't break the fast or won't be used for immediate energy. Again, while technically ff-BCAA hold an energy value, this energy is available directly to the processing muscle tissue, not the whole body.

I look forward to your responses since maybe I missed or am overlooking something. But from what I have read my above statement is correct.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Bookmarked for the future. Got my MCAT on 9/2 but will respond after. We are skipping a couple steps here.

 

[JudoJosh]

Bookmarked for the future. Got my MCAT on 9/2 but will respond after. We are skipping a couple steps here.

I look forward to reading your response as well bud, as I am always looking to further my understanding on these things

P.S best of luck with your upcoming exam

 

[OrganicShadow]

Good luck with the exam. If I could only motivate myself to study for it. Sigh.

 

[ZiR RED]

depth depth depth.
since this doesn't get saved unless someone else responds, i'll bookmark this and go into it later
in short, FF-bcaa can be converted into glucose, but it depends on what is in the liver/body when consumed.

Amino acid metabolism is quite complex, especially considering there are 20 different AA's all used in dynamic processes in the body.

The state of the individual, including energy levels, circulating hormones/hormone release, etc. will all impact what happens with the AA consumed.

For example, if blood glucose is low, then BCAA's will be converted into glucose via the liver.

Br

 

[ZiR RED]

Lets also not forget that a higher dose of leucine only during fasted cardio may compomise fat burning since Leu requires AKG to be converted into acetyl CoA. As leu is converted and AKG is depleted, the krebs cycle will slow down.

Br

 

[MAxximal]

leucine enhanced the synthesis of the uncoupling protein 3 [UCP3]. UCPs boost the mitochondrias burning ability.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[JudoJosh]

The state of the individual, including energy levels, circulating hormones/hormone release, etc. will all impact what happens with the AA consumed.

For example, if blood glucose is low, then BCAA's will be converted into glucose via the liver.

Br

This is true of free form aminos as well? I understand that aminos from food are oxidized in the liver but when taken in free form won't they go directly to the muscle to be metabolized and THEN if energy is needed the body will go through steps of obtaining energy from the muscle or liver? This has always been my understanding of ff-BCAAs based off what I read on Dr. Berardi boards.

Also the original question was in reference to performing cardio first thing in the morning fasted, so why would ff-BCAAs even go to the liver as it should already have glycogen stored already from the night before, should it not?

 

[ZiR RED]

During sleep the liver is constantly releasing glycogen to maintain blood glucose (depending on what the subject ate before bed), liver glycogen would be low. In addition, the onset of exercise would result in a release of hormones initiating the breakdown of liver glycogen and release into the blood to maintain BG.

Br

 

[Jasen]

So if one wanted to burn fat u suggest no BCAA. I do my cardio right after weight training 30 min each. Im also on Test now, is this why im burning less fat than desired? I take 10g bcaa maybe I should cut it off?

 

[ZiR RED]

So if one wanted to burn fat u suggest no BCAA. I do my cardio right after weight training 30 min each. Im also on Test now, is this why im burning less fat than desired? I take 10g bcaa maybe I should cut it off?

The amount of fat you burn during your cardio is analogous to the amount of money you put into a stock portfolio. Its the ROI that matters.

You make more money investing 10,000 in a stock that returns 50% than 100k in a stock that returns 8%. You burn more fat over the course of time doing fed cardio than fasted.

Br

 

[MAxximal]

and this is why Gluconeogenesis INEVITABLE in the human body



Gluconeogenesis is the process of synthesizing glucose from non-carbohydrate sources. The starting point of gluconeogenesis is pyruvic acid, although oxaloacetic acid and dihydroxyacetone phosphate also provide entry points. Lactic acid, some amino acids from protein and glycerol from fat can be converted into glucose. Gluconeogenesis is similar but not the exact reverse of glycolysis, some of the steps are the identical in reverse direction and three of them are new ones. Without going into detail, the general gluconeogenesis sequence is given in the graphic on the left.

Notice that oxaloacetic acid is synthesized from pyruvic acid in the first step. Oxaloacetic acid is also the first compound to react with acetyl CoA in the citric acid cycle. The concentration of acetyl CoA and ATP determines the fate of oxaloacetic acid. If the concentration of acetyl CoA is low and concentration of ATP is high then gluconeogenesis proceeds. Also notice that ATP is required for a biosynthesis sequence of gluconeogenesis.

Gluconeogenesis occurs mainly in the liver with a small amount also occurring in the cortex of the kidney. Very little gluconeogenesis occurs in the brain, skeletal muscles, heart muscles or other body tissue. In fact, these organs have a high demand for glucose. Therefore, gluconeogenesis is constantly occurring in the liver to maintain the glucose level in the blood to meet these demands.

 

[mr.cooper69]

So if one wanted to burn fat u suggest no BCAA. I do my cardio right after weight training 30 min each. Im also on Test now, is this why im burning less fat than desired? I take 10g bcaa maybe I should cut it off?

No.

Th You burn more fat over the course of time doing fed cardio than fasted.

Br

No.

 

[mr.cooper69]

and this is why Gluconeogenesis INEVITABLE in the human body



Gluconeogenesis is the process of synthesizing glucose from non-carbohydrate sources. The starting point of gluconeogenesis is pyruvic acid, although oxaloacetic acid and dihydroxyacetone phosphate also provide entry points. Lactic acid, some amino acids from protein and glycerol from fat can be converted into glucose. Gluconeogenesis is similar but not the exact reverse of glycolysis, some of the steps are the identical in reverse direction and three of them are new ones. Without going into detail, the general gluconeogenesis sequence is given in the graphic on the left.

Notice that oxaloacetic acid is synthesized from pyruvic acid in the first step. Oxaloacetic acid is also the first compound to react with acetyl CoA in the citric acid cycle. The concentration of acetyl CoA and ATP determines the fate of oxaloacetic acid. If the concentration of acetyl CoA is low and concentration of ATP is high then gluconeogenesis proceeds. Also notice that ATP is required for a biosynthesis sequence of gluconeogenesis.

Gluconeogenesis occurs mainly in the liver with a small amount also occurring in the cortex of the kidney. Very little gluconeogenesis occurs in the brain, skeletal muscles, heart muscles or other body tissue. In fact, these organs have a high demand for glucose. Therefore, gluconeogenesis is constantly occurring in the liver to maintain the glucose level in the blood to meet these demands.

Gluconeogenesis is unlikely to occur with acute ffAA consumption as part of a balanced diet.

 

[EasyEJL]

Hey Mr cooper, please back some of that up with science.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Hey Mr cooper, please back some of that up with science.

I already said I will after my MCAT. Posts like that are painstakingly long and I don't have time for it .

For when I do respond though, which part exactly would you like me to elaborate on?

 

[EasyEJL]

Both the fed cardio not having greater fat loss (as there are recent studies showing greater fat loss when carbs are ingested during cardio) and on gluconeogenesis not occurring

 

[Jasen]

Im still confused whyyyy??? Ok bcaa make body burn less fat so doing cardio mid day after weightraining I don't need bcaa? If I wanna burn alot of fat? Fml why am I confused can it be laid out no riddles please ZR. If I wanna burn fat no bcaa right? Also im on test should keep me anabolic?

 

[EasyEJL]

Realistically Jasen the difference is so small who cares? Do what you feel better doing.

If you are losing 2lbs a week, that's 4oz of fat a day. Even saying that you lose more during awake hours than sleeping, say you lose 3oz of fat over your 16 hours awake. If you blunt the fat loss for an hour, its the rough equivalent of less than 1/4oz of fat loss differential. Or to look at it another way, clipping an extra 50 calories a day out of your eating would make more of a difference

 

[mr.cooper69]

Both the fed cardio not having greater fat loss (as there are recent studies showing greater fat loss when carbs are ingested during cardio) and on gluconeogenesis not occurring

Both noted.

There are plenty of studies showing overall caloric balance > isolated windows. You will burn more fat doing fed than fasted cardio, yes, for that specific window of time. If we extend this window to the full 24 hours of a day, and an isocaloric diet is followed, than overall fat loss on fasted vs unfasted cardio is equivalent.

 

[EasyEJL]

I'll have to find and re-read that recent study for the full parameters

 

[Jasen]

Yes but im trying to maxims that one hr where I train and cardio for fatloss seems pointless if the bcaa are stoping me from burning fat for that one hour ibreally need them too kinda get my point? On side note would test be anabolic enough to stop me from going catabolic??? I think yeah?

 

[Jasen]

I will try for a bit without bcaa ill just take ny shake one hr before workout and C4 and see how that goes I honestly think its impacting my fatliss durinng cardio by what im doing it should be greater than what im noticing now

 

[mr.cooper69]

Yes but im trying to maxims that one hr where I train and cardio for fatloss seems pointless if the bcaa are stoping me from burning fat for that one hour ibreally need them too kinda get my point? On side note would test be anabolic enough to stop me from going catabolic??? I think yeah?

You're missing the point. Overall daily calories determine fat loss.

I will try for a bit without bcaa ill just take ny shake one hr before workout and C4 and see how that goes I honestly think its impacting my fatliss durinng cardio by what im doing it should be greater than what im noticing now

It is not impacting fat loss, PERIOD. NO DISCUSSION. If you are doing cardio, your insulin levels are essentially zero. NADA. The fate of the BCAAs is irrelevant. Use your BCAAs!

 

[Jasen]

Then how come I always seemed to notice more fatliss without BCAA? I have been doing alot of cardio and strict diet plus im in test but I just didn't lose much fat as opposed to when I did no bcaa... I will go for a few wks without bcaa and see what happenes.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Then how come I always seemed to notice more fatliss without BCAA? I have been doing alot of cardio and strict diet plus im in test but I just didn't lose much fat as opposed to when I did no bcaa... I will go for a few wks without bcaa and see what happenes.

Are you counting the calories from BCAAs? If you're not, then depending on your intake, you may not be in as large of a deficit as you think.

 

[ZiR RED]

Both noted.

There are plenty of studies showing overall caloric balance > isolated windows. You will burn more fat doing fed than fasted cardio, yes, for that specific window of time. If we extend this window to the full 24 hours of a day, and an isocaloric diet is followed, than overall fat loss on fasted vs unfasted cardio is equivalent.

It is that simple, and yet it is far more complex.

Performing fed cardio allows for a greater work output (unless we are talking really low intensity cardio). The greater work output is a stimulus for more adaptations - adaptations including synthesis of new proteins for enzymes, contractile fibers, mitochondria, etc. With the new enzymes, fat burning capacity is increased (ie: levels of HOAD is often looked at in the adaptations to be able to utilize FA as fuel during exercise). The synthesis of these new proteins requires energy. In addition, a greater amount of metabolic by-products, such as lactate, will be produced, and it requires energy to return the body to homeostasis.

Br

 

[Jasen]

Ok bcaa don't have much calories correct. It more of them blunting fat burn due to insulin etc etc. I have general notices more loss midsection without BCAA ill try a few wks without them. Besides im in test it should keep ne from going catabilic 1000mg a wk

 

[mr.cooper69]

It is that simple, and yet it is far more complex.

Performing fed cardio allows for a greater work output (unless we are talking really low intensity cardio). The greater work output is a stimulus for more adaptations - adaptations including synthesis of new proteins for enzymes, contractile fibers, mitochondria, etc. With the new enzymes, fat burning capacity is increased (ie: levels of HOAD is often looked at in the adaptations to be able to utilize FA as fuel during exercise). The synthesis of these new proteins requires energy. In addition, a greater amount of metabolic by-products, such as lactate, will be produced, and it requires energy to return the body to homeostasis.

Br

I will touch on this later. I also misinterpreted your earlier point, but there are still a couple logical gaps.

Ok bcaa don't have much calories correct. It more of them blunting fat burn due to insulin etc etc. I have general notices more loss midsection without BCAA ill try a few wks without them. Besides im in test it should keep ne from going catabilic 1000mg a wk

You don't listen to anything I say do you? BCAAs have as many calories IF NOT MORE than amide linked AAs in a polypeptide.

BCAAs aren't hindering your fat loss due to effects on insulin. For the last time, YOU ARE PERFORMING CARDIO. THERE IS ESSENTIALLY ZERO INSULIN RESPONSE DURING CARDIO OR ANY OTHER EVEN MODERATELY INTENSE ACTIVITY.

Sorry for the caps, but I hope this will finally drive the point home with you.

 

[Jasen]

So I shouldn't take bcaa?

 

[Jasen]

Loll jk actually that caps sentence was easy and straight thanks man ill keep taking them

 

[mr.cooper69]

Loll jk actually that caps sentence was easy and straight thanks man ill keep taking them

Haha alright, just make sure you count the calories from the BCAAs. 4 cals per gram.

 

[Jasen]

Yeah that 40cals ibwalk that off just by going to gym loll im a bigger frame

 

[Bnatural]

you are on test, protein/fats should be your best friend.

 

[Bnatural]

At no point did I suggest that BCAAs can't be converted to glucose.

My statement was when in a fasted state if one was to ingest a small amount of ff-aminos, the aminos would go directly to the muscle to be metabolized. If your body wants to break down aminos for glucose than it would have to go through the steps required to get it from the muscle, the BCCAs themseleves aren't necessarily being used for energy in your entire body. The aminos themselves won't break the fast or won't be used for immediate energy. Again, while technically ff-BCAA hold an energy value, this energy is available directly to the processing muscle tissue, not the whole body.

I look forward to your responses since maybe I missed or am overlooking something. But from what I have read my above statement is correct.

your body doesn't draw from the muscles first, so if aminos are ingested, and the body is in a fasted state, these aminos will more than likely be converted and utilized as fuel. the body has intelligence, so why go through the steps to break down aminos from muscle, when it has easy access to recently ingested aminos.
Those aminos CAN and WILL be used for energy if the body is in a fasted state.

Amino acid metabolism is quite complex, especially considering there are 20 different AA's all used in dynamic processes in the body.

The state of the individual, including energy levels, circulating hormones/hormone release, etc. will all impact what happens with the AA consumed.

For example, if blood glucose is low, then BCAA's will be converted into glucose via the liver.

Br

this is what i've been getting at.

 

[schizm]

loving the conversation in here...let's go one step further...OP (I believe) was first asking about fasted cardio/fat loss (yes?) Let's talk about fasted weight training and gaining lbm...we've established better work output in a nonfasted state...say it's not possible to eat prior to working out, b/c training is happening roughly 45 mins upon waking up....outside of waking up earlier to eat and one is wanting to maximize LBM gains (minimize fat accumulation) would it be better to consume BCAA's pre & intra (25-35g total) only or combo BCAA's (say 15-25g total) with a liquid form of carbs intra (like some gatorade, roughly 30-40g carbs worth)? ...training happening for roughly 60-75 mins. thoughts?

Plus...in this scenario would it be to this persons advantage to eat a c/p/f snack prior to bed to help supply blood glucose through the night to 'protect' liver glycogen for morning workout?

 

[Jasen]

your body doesn't draw from the muscles first, so if aminos are ingested, and the body is in a fasted state, these aminos will more than likely be converted and utilized as fuel. the body has intelligence, so why go through the steps to break down aminos from muscle, when it has easy access to recently ingested aminos.Those aminos CAN and WILL be used for energy if the body is in a fasted state.this is what i've been getting at.

So we all agree bcaa during cardio? Tonoreseerve muscle and burn fat