Ecdysterone - Any fans here?

wideguy said:
I am running 8i force ecdy a day with 30-40 tabd humapro along with about 150-200 grams of other protein. I will comment here and there not gonna start a log, as they usually are sucky.
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That sounds like a good stack..Im going to do Humapro at about 20 tabs a day w/ substerone for starters and see how that goes...than a short break and onto TrueTurk
 
****ing **** there is a lot of post here. Ok I can't go through all this and read them all so I'm just going to jump in, lol.

I'm using LG's substerone right now and dosing anywhere from 4-5x a day and I can't make comment on it right now cause I've only been on it for 4 days or so. What time would you guys say is the best time to dose it? And do you really thing it's as good as other ecdy products?
 
Take ecdy before or with a high protein meal for best results IMO.


I'm not too excited about an 80% extract knowing just how crucial molecule crystallization is to the usefullness of ecdysteroids.
 
LG Sciences said:
molecule crystalization? Care to elaborate?
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The ecdysterone molecule itself can form a crystallized structure. It is rare to see it in crystallized form in nature, but begins to present itself most noticeably in >95% extracts. If you look at an ecdy molecule from a 50% extract, and compare it to a >98% extract, the crystallization will be seriously apparent.

Here is an exert from the department of chemistry, University of California Riverside

1) A New Approach for Modeling Molecular Liquids and Solids

Molecular Crystal Structure Prediction: Crystal structure prediction exemplifies the challenges faced in modeling the condensed phase. One of the major goals of crystallography is to be able to predict the most stable crystal structure(s) of a molecule with no information beyond the structure of a single molecule. The packing arrangement can have a dramatic impact on the properties of the crystal. For example, it can completely alter the bioavailability of a pharmaceutical in the human body.
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Although not specifically mentioning Ecdysterone in this example, it holds true for almost any compound which come in a crystallized form.


Here is another quote which pertains to the topic:

Improving Oral Bioavailability Through Inhibition of Crystallization After Dosing

Julius F. Remenar, Ph.D.
Transform Pharmaceuticals


Crystallization plays a central role in the development and performance of most drugs, allowing manufacturers to producehigh-purity bulk supplies with good stability. Crystalline materials are usually significantly more physically stable and resistant to chemical degradation than amorphous forms.
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Here is an image from a powerpoint which discusses how to improve bioavailability of compounds. It touches primarily on particle size reduction, but does comment on crystalline structure enhancements...

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Now here is another slide from the same presentation. Note that it does not directly test Ecdysterone here, but shows the benefits to utilizing a crystallized structure compared to a free base structure of the tested drug...

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Here is one last slide from the same presentation. Note that it specifically refers to a lower dose being needed(as I have claimed numerous times for our own product) due to the enhanced effects of the crystallized structure.

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So at the end of the day, I truly believe that using an ecdy extract that is not >95% is just a waste of time. I have tried all different types, and it was beyond obvious to me that Ecdymorph was doing a lot more for me than any other extract. The owner of the extract instructed me to research crystallization and lo and behold he was correct. There is a reason this stuff is >$3k/kg while 80% is closer to $150-$200/kg.
 
if anyone has any input on the above, please feel free to come in and share it. Most times when I bring this stuff up everyone gets quiet and no one responds :(
 
VaughnTrue said:
if anyone has any input on the above, please feel free to come in and share it. Most times when I bring this stuff up everyone gets quiet and no one responds :(
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sorry even I dont know what to say about that lol.
only that I will be tryign out the sub-strone soon over the summer and ill report back on how i liked it (though will mean less here since im with LG) ill still do so honestly, hey a review is a review, im curious how I will like it since I love my tren and test so much :-) ill be only on hrt though when i try it.
 
I don't have much of any input but thanks for sharing that vaugn.
 
Well, that is of course true, but most things are micronized to avoid this as an issue. Additionally for the LG Sciences product specifically this doesn't apply because it is a liquid. The crystals dissolve in the liquid HPBCD matrix.

If you look at the old androstenedione articles from Patrick Arnold, they used stuff that wasn't micronized, which caused a problem. Still, micronized stuff avoids this issue completely and most things are micronized these days.
 
LG Sciences said:
Well, that is of course true, but most things are micronized to avoid this as an issue. Additionally for the LG Sciences product specifically this doesn't apply because it is a liquid. The crystals dissolve in the liquid HPBCD matrix.

If you look at the old androstenedione articles from Patrick Arnold, they used stuff that wasn't micronized, which caused a problem. Still, micronized stuff avoids this issue completely and most things are micronized these days.
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Micronizing definitely does help increase bioavailablity. The powerpoint slides I presented actually begin the presentation with that(speaking of jet milling and other techniques).


However, we cannot get molecules into the nm sector yet, so eventually we reach the smallest particle size possible. After that, increasing crystallization will/does improve bioavailability.
 
This sounds like BS to me and also 95% isn't $3000 and 80% isn't $150. The difference is very minimal in cost between a 80% and 95% extract.

No offense but these slides don't even say anything that is intelligible.
 
Is this as good as the cryogenic freezing that Muscletech uses? I am sure you found a Chinese supplier that did a crystalization absorption study on ecdysterone just for you guys and found the exact matrix that made ecdysterone more bioavailable, which isn't really it's problem by the way. It's rapidly cleared and excreted as glucoronides and sufated forms like most steroids.

Putting up a few out of place quotes and slides doesn't make 95% any better than 80% it's all the same mg per mg and I will take a sublingual over an oral on ecdy any day.
 
LG Sciences said:
This sounds like BS to me and also 95% isn't $3000 and 80% isn't $150. The difference is very minimal in cost between a 80% and 95% extract.

No offense but these slides don't even say anything that is intelligible.
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LG Sciences said:
Is this as good as the cryogenic freezing that Muscletech uses? I am sure you found a Chinese supplier that did a crystalization absorption study on ecdysterone just for you guys and found the exact matrix that made ecdysterone more bioavailable, which isn't really it's problem by the way. It's rapidly cleared and excreted as glucoronides and sufated forms like most steroids.

Putting up a few out of place quotes and slides doesn't make 95% any better than 80% it's all the same mg per mg and I will take a sublingual over an oral on ecdy any day.
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80% ecdy does in fact cost me between $150-$200/kg. If you'd like the source of this, I'd be more than happy to send it your way.

I never stated that 95% ecdy was $3000/kg. I said >95%. The extract I was referencing is the only >99% extract available, EcdyMorph(used in iForce ECDY). This is sold by Sirovi, and I can guarantee you the price is >$3k/kg as I previously mentioned.

As for the slides not saying anything intelligible, I am a bit confused. These slides and info are from accredited sources that have absolutely no bias. They are from colleges and studies.

In your first post you agree that molecular crystallization does alter bioavailablity, but now you're saying it's nonsense. I am confused, which is it?



At the end of the day, if you want to pretend that molecular crystallization does not affect bioavailability, I'd strongly suggest you do more research. It is a 100% known fact.




I'll make you a wager. Take a look at your 80% and compare it to our >99% extract under a scanning electron microscope. If you don't see any difference, I'll pay you back the testing fee and give you $100 cash.
 
LG Sciences said:
Is this as good as the cryogenic freezing that Muscletech uses? I am sure you found a Chinese supplier that did a crystalization absorption study on ecdysterone just for you guys and found the exact matrix that made ecdysterone more bioavailable, which isn't really it's problem by the way. It's rapidly cleared and excreted as glucoronides and sufated forms like most steroids.

Putting up a few out of place quotes and slides doesn't make 95% any better than 80% it's all the same mg per mg and I will take a sublingual over an oral on ecdy any day.
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Thats just the thing... it's not the same mg/mg as the studies on crystallization prove. 10mg of a non-crystallized free base will not absorb/work as well as 10mg of a crystallized non free base. This is science and proven.

Your 80% extract has absolutely ZERO molecular crystallization, and will provide little to no effects in my opinion.


After looking at your product profile, I noted the following:


Sub Sterone Supplement Facts

Serving Size: Droppers (1.45 ml)
Servings per Container: 84


Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Ecdysterone Complex:
HydroxyPropyl Beta Cyclodextrin 27.5 mg ** 55 mg **
20-Hydroxy-ecdysterone 15 mg ** 30 mg **
6-Keto Diosgenin 7.5mg ** 15.mg **
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With 30mg of ecdysterone per serving, and 84 servings, this leaves us with 2,520mg of 80% ecdy, or 2,016mg of actual ecdysterone.

Now lets compare this with iForce's ECDY

ECDY Supplement Facts

Serving Size: Capsule
Servings per Container: 90


Amount Per Serving % Daily Value

EcdyMorph™:

(99% Ecdysterone) CO2 extraction from Rhaponticum Carthamoides
25 mg ** 25 mg **
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So in this product there is a total of 2,250mg of >99% Ecdysterone, or at a minimum 2,227mg of actual Ecdysterone.



So LG's product = 2,016mg of ecdysterone
iForce's product = 2,227mg of Ecdysterone


Even if you were correct on a mg/mg basis(which you are not), iForce ECDY offers more ecdy for a lesser price(the current $24.99 price is only while it is out of stock, it will be back for $19.49, or $0.50 less than substerone).


So now with the PROVEN knowledge that molecular crystallization plays HUGE role in molecule stability, potency, and strength...how are these two even compared?


You get MORE ecdy from ECDY, you get a BETTER ecdy from ECDY, and you save money.



game. set. match.
 
You take some nonsense slides, post them up and say game set match. Why don't you just stick to discussing your own products and if people believe your science then great.

I only take offense when you try and defame our product. If you know so much, you'd realize that with HPBCD it wouldn't matter because the molecules migrate into the matrix thus sort of putting a hole in your theory.


Stop with the CAPS SINCE THEY DON'T ADD ANYTHING TO YOUR STATEMENTS.


You have nothing to back up your claims, no data on ecdysterone, no description of this "secret" 95% ecdysterone. Maybe a 80% UV is %150 per kilo but not a 80% HPLC.


Why don't you send your ecdy to the scanning electron microscope and then send an 80% HPLC extracted for 20H only and then post the results.


NO NEED TO FEEL THREATENED I am sure you will still sell plenty of "magic" ecdysterone at 25mg per capsule even with our sublingual delivery on the market.


I hope people see how classless it is to comment on another very valid product that uses sound technology like cyclodextrin to achieve oral bioavailability of the ecdysterones.
 
ok ok boys....one easy way to put this to rest....each of you send me a bottle of your product....i will take 1 product and dose it as suggested by the bottle, mark down my review...wait a month and take the other one at a dose suggested by the bottle and then review that one.....this way we can compare and contrast

no need to say oh well theres no comparision either......because theres always comparision
 
LG Sciences said:
You take some nonsense slides, post them up and say game set match. Why don't you just stick to discussing your own products and if people believe your science then great.

I only take offense when you try and defame our product. If you know so much, you'd realize that with HPBCD it wouldn't matter because the molecules migrate into the matrix thus sort of putting a hole in your theory.


Stop with the CAPS SINCE THEY DON'T ADD ANYTHING TO YOUR STATEMENTS.


You have nothing to back up your claims, no data on ecdysterone, no description of this "secret" 95% ecdysterone. Maybe a 80% UV is %150 per kilo but not a 80% HPLC.


Why don't you send your ecdy to the scanning electron microscope and then send an 80% HPLC extracted for 20H only and then post the results.


NO NEED TO FEEL THREATENED I am sure you will still sell plenty of "magic" ecdysterone at 25mg per capsule even with our sublingual delivery on the market.


I hope people see how classless it is to comment on another very valid product that uses sound technology like cyclodextrin to achieve oral bioavailability of the ecdysterones.
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I never attacked you or your product, I just simply stated I was not impressed with the 80% extract. You are the one who seems to be getting upset. I rather enjoy conversation like this as it gives me and everyone else a chance to learn in the process.

Here is my post in case you forgot...

VaughnTrue said:
Take ecdy before or with a high protein meal for best results IMO.


I'm not too excited about an 80% extract knowing just how crucial molecule crystallization is to the usefullness of ecdysteroids.
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I simply said I'm not too excited. You then asked me for information on molecular crystallization(which I graciously provided).

You then went to compare me/iForce to MuscleTech and their cryogenic freezing techniques. No one attacked here but you :).
 
LG Sciences said:
You take some nonsense slides, post them up and say game set match. Why don't you just stick to discussing your own products and if people believe your science then great.

I only take offense when you try and defame our product. If you know so much, you'd realize that with HPBCD it wouldn't matter because the molecules migrate into the matrix thus sort of putting a hole in your theory.


Stop with the CAPS SINCE THEY DON'T ADD ANYTHING TO YOUR STATEMENTS.


You have nothing to back up your claims, no data on ecdysterone, no description of this "secret" 95% ecdysterone. Maybe a 80% UV is %150 per kilo but not a 80% HPLC.


Why don't you send your ecdy to the scanning electron microscope and then send an 80% HPLC extracted for 20H only and then post the results.


NO NEED TO FEEL THREATENED I am sure you will still sell plenty of "magic" ecdysterone at 25mg per capsule even with our sublingual delivery on the market.


I hope people see how classless it is to comment on another very valid product that uses sound technology like cyclodextrin to achieve oral bioavailability of the ecdysterones.
Click to expand...


easy with the caps there. they don't add anything to your statements.


Just a FYI.


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I am not excited with slides that don't have any relevance and I am not excited at all with statements that seem to have no basis in reality.

Since you are interested in learning. Let me explain sublingual technology. It is used to bypass the relative poor oral absorption of the gut.

It's very powerful in Resveratrol for example 1mg sublingually has been shown to yield the same blood plasma levels as 250mg of oral resveratrol in capsules.

With other steroids like testosterone, androstenedione, androstenediol it has shown to out perform ten fold oral capsules.

Pretty great science even with an 80% 20H-Ecdysterone and 20% other ecdysteroids combination.

So, using your logic you would have to take nearly 8 bottles of iForce Ecdy to equal 1 bottle of substerone.
 
I've currently stacked

Anabolic Addictions - Mass Addiction
& AX Mass FX MS

So far 2 weeks in and loving the results. All that extra Ecdy & Div and more


Plan to run LG next month
 
LG Sciences said:
I am not excited with slides that don't have any relevance and I am not excited at all with statements that seem to have no basis in reality.

Since you are interested in learning. Let me explain sublingual technology. It is used to bypass the relative poor oral absorption of the gut.

It's very powerful in Resveratrol for example 1mg sublingually has been shown to yield the same blood plasma levels as 250mg of oral resveratrol in capsules.

With other steroids like testosterone, androstenedione, androstenediol it has shown to out perform ten fold oral capsules.

Pretty great science even with an 80% 20H-Ecdysterone and 20% other ecdysteroids combination.

So, using your logic you would have to take nearly 8 bottles of iForce Ecdy to equal 1 bottle of substerone.
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Lol I didn't want to get into a pissing match, but if you'd like...


People would be monsters if 1mg of anything magically was 250mg of the same compound. If this holds true, why isn't everyone simply taking 20mg of cyclodextrin creatine instead of 5g of creatine monohydrate?

Or even better yet...why aren't people taking 1mg of a cyclodextric testosterone instead of 250mg of test? Hell even if they took 1mg of cyclo test each day theyd be at like 2g/test a week! I think you guys need to release that on the DL...
And past that, we both know sublingual products are not DSHEA compliant. Best of luck to you with your fitness goals in 2011 :)
 
By the way that's easy to answer even with your absolutely flawed logic aside.

See with things like creatine that is nearly 100% absorbable in the gut there would be no need for magic crystalization or sublingual. We are talking about things that are ordinarily hard to absorb like ecdysterone.

Sublingual delivery seems to top out at about 20-25mg for each tissue. So for things like ecdysterone where you want a dose of about that range you are right on target with our sublingual delivery.

Sublinguals are DSHEA if you are told to "swallow completely" just look at B12 in Walgreens.
 
I as well as many others beg to differ:


When questioned about ingestion methods of supplements his response was "dietary supplements are to be consumed as or like food" This specifically excludes methods of delivery which intentionally bypass the gastrointestinal tract.

This means that both transdermal and transmucosal delivery systems are expressly prohibited. A fact which he verified by stating that both of these compound delivery methodologies are "drug delivery systems" and that the constituent components delivered via these methods are certainly not intended to supplement the diet.

Read more from this MESO-Rx article at: Invalid Link Removed
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Here's a quote from the TOP dshea/aas lawyer in the world...

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I am pretty comfortable with our position thanks. Mike's opinion is just that and we are comfortable with sublinguals that are swallowed completely as is Walmart, Walgreens, GNC, Vitamin World etc...
 
Bigbadbug said:
Yeah are there any toxicity concerns? Interested
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no toxic issues with sub-strone as far as we know. and ECD has ben around for a while in one form or another, so i think its pritty safe.
 
VaughnTrue said:
I never attacked you or your product
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ORLY?

VaughnTrue said:
Your 80% extract has absolutely ZERO molecular crystallization, and will provide little to no effects in my opinion.


Now lets compare this with iForce's ECDY


So LG's product = 2,016mg of ecdysterone
iForce's product = 2,227mg of Ecdysterone


Even if you were correct on a mg/mg basis(which you are not), iForce ECDY offers more ecdy for a lesser price(the current $24.99 price is only while it is out of stock, it will be back for $19.49, or $0.50 less than substerone).


So now with the PROVEN knowledge that molecular crystallization plays HUGE role in molecule stability, potency, and strength...how are these two even compared?


You get MORE ecdy from ECDY, you get a BETTER ecdy from ECDY, and you save money.



game. set. match.
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At it again, huh?
 
also, one thing to consider is Substerone has a lot of other questionable ingredients that you are putting into your body. Not saying it doesn't work, it may very well. If you are after health and wellness, it is just one thing to consider. Ecdymorph just has the basic ingredient and then a couple of other additives that are harmless.
 
Bigugly said:
I ran it at 200mg a day and felt like I was on the juice. I miss the all day muscle fullness :( gonna order some more and run it with the Hemavol and maximize stack sold at NP.
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Interesting, i didnt notice a single thing from the iforce brand even dosed super high.

E-bol is my go-to ecdy supp and the only one i will probably ever use. Im actually on it now =]
 
I notice that people who get results from ECDY (99% Ecdymorph) get greay results but then there's people who get nothing from it. Iforce ecdy makes me feel freaking jacked and that's before I was every a company rep.
 
StakedCop said:
I notice that people who get results from ECDY (99% Ecdymorph) get greay results but then there's people who get nothing from it. Iforce ecdy makes me feel freaking jacked and that's before I was every a company rep.
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Did you ever get around to trying e-bol?
 
StakedCop said:
Nope lol I promise I'll give it a go within the next few months. I owe it to myself. Btw man I'm shocked you didn't notice anything from iforce ecdy.
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Me too, i had high expectations. Which makes me thing that if u tried e-bol it would blow u away haha. Especially if u follow the blueprint. Gains shoot up out of nowhere
 
tnubs said:
Me too, i had high expectations. Which makes me thing that if u tried e-bol it would blow u away haha. Especially if u follow the blueprint. Gains shoot up out of nowhere
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I just started taken Ecdymorph after a good 3 months break and im busting put of my shirts lol I'm also on DAA and PCT Rev. Making better gains then I did on my andro run lol can't wait to add Ebol to the mix
 
looking to start ecdy in november, will keep you posted, used the old e-bol about 2.5yrs ago maybe 3 and saw nothing form it at 2x dosing
 
koi1214 said:
Do you have a link to the BluePrint routine?I have 2 bottles of Ebol readt to start on 11/1.
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U have to buy it. It's a complete diet and training regimen. Mixelflick who has posted in this thread s the creator.
 
Just wondering if anyone has seen better joint regeneration when taking a ecdysterone supplement? According to ergo-log there has been a study on rats where their joint cartilage did in fact grow... I guess u guys already know about that study, but I am wondering if anyone has had cartilage regeneration effects on damaged joints while on ecdy? If so, please add the product you were taking at that time.

So far I've been searching the net and only found one user (I believe it was Scifits Ecdy 300) that reported less problems with his shoulder. I think that product uses Cyanotis Vaga...
 
Dumpenady said:
Just wondering if anyone has seen better joint regeneration when taking a ecdysterone supplement? According to ergo-log there has been a study on rats where their joint cartilage did in fact grow... I guess u guys already know about that study, but I am wondering if anyone has had cartilage regeneration effects on damaged joints while on ecdy? If so, please add the product you were taking at that time.

So far I've been searching the net and only found one user (I believe it was Scifits Ecdy 300) that reported less problems with his shoulder. I think that product uses Cyanotis Vaga...
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There is research pointing to this attribute of Ecdy, and I do feel much better on it (joint wise, I guess you'd say). That opinion is shared by many I know. However, in the interest of being objective it's my opinion that while it may work in this respect - high dose supercissusRx is superior - for this issue anyway.

Overall it's just another positive, healthy advantage that Ecdy conveys. I've said this before but I guess I'll say it again: Ecdysterone will ultimately be found to be as healthy as fish oil. HUGE statement, but time is the ultimate test. Some day, it will be known to the masses as one of the most powerful anti-aging/health and longevity supps ever to come down the pike - probably under a less threatening name...
 
Mixelflick said:
There is research pointing to this attribute of Ecdy, and I do feel much better on it (joint wise, I guess you'd say). That opinion is shared by many I know. However, in the interest of being objective it's my opinion that while it may work in this respect - high dose supercissusRx is superior - for this issue anyway.

Overall it's just another positive, healthy advantage that Ecdy conveys. I've said this before but I guess I'll say it again: Ecdysterone will ultimately be found to be as healthy as fish oil. HUGE statement, but time is the ultimate test. Some day, it will be known to the masses as one of the most powerful anti-aging/health and longevity supps ever to come down the pike - probably under a less threatening name...
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The BluePrint definitely goes into more detail about the usage of Ecdy which was very educational and something I had not heard.
 
Vegking said:
i'm still confused on which brand is the real deal or which one is the one your body can actually use.
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Lol...me too and I still can't workout whether this stuff works most of the time or whether like most supplements it depends mostly on the biochemistry of the individual using it.
 
Sup Mix - Can someone run Ecdy for 6+ months (for example) or wil the body acclimate?
 
Mixelflick said:
There is research pointing to this attribute of Ecdy, and I do feel much better on it (joint wise, I guess you'd say). That opinion is shared by many I know. However, in the interest of being objective it's my opinion that while it may work in this respect - high dose supercissusRx is superior - for this issue anyway.

Overall it's just another positive, healthy advantage that Ecdy conveys. I've said this before but I guess I'll say it again: Ecdysterone will ultimately be found to be as healthy as fish oil. HUGE statement, but time is the ultimate test. Some day, it will be known to the masses as one of the most powerful anti-aging/health and longevity supps ever to come down the pike - probably under a less threatening name...
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I'm trying out Cissus right now, however from what I have researched it does not regenerate cartilage. Thats why I find ecdy so interesting, because in this study it did regenerate cartilage. So thats the second anecdotal evidence I have found for ecdy having cartilage regeneration effects on humans. great. My guess would be Cissus is great for short term relief because of its anti inflammation effects, while ecdy might be great for long term cartilage regeneration.

Mind me asking what would you prefer in general:LG Subecdy or Megaturk (TrueTurk & Ecdisten)?
 
Dumpenady said:
Mind me asking what would you prefer in general:LG Subecdy or Megaturk (TrueTurk & Ecdisten)?
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i wouldnt use either of those, personally. ebol is my favorite but it also has other adaptogens to help lower stess and help with weightlifting.
 
Dumpenady said:
I'm trying out Cissus right now, however from what I have researched it does not regenerate cartilage. Thats why I find ecdy so interesting, because in this study it did regenerate cartilage. So thats the second anecdotal evidence I have found for ecdy having cartilage regeneration effects on humans. great. My guess would be Cissus is great for short term relief because of its anti inflammation effects, while ecdy might be great for long term cartilage regeneration.

Mind me asking what would you prefer in general:LG Subecdy or Megaturk (TrueTurk & Ecdisten)?
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You can look into Celadrin for joint support, I wouldnt use cissus. Cissus is great for bone injuries but taking just for its anti-inflammatory properties concerns me as Id be worried about a buid up in bone deposits.
 
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