epistane and hairline...

[fritzer]

how harsh is epistane on the hairline?? Any input appreciated, thx! Is it worse than superdrol or pheraplex?

 

[poison]

I've heard of some shedding. I'm really wanting to use it, but that is stopping me.

 

[DR.D]

Are you serious! SD caused anybody to shed? Just goes to show you, it's mostly genetic. Epi may cause some shedding alright, but reports so far indicate not as bad as one may expect. Probably kinder than PP even at twice the dose of Epi.

 

[poison]

hmmm. Damn genetics! I REALLY want to use Epistane.

 

[dertynasty]

Epi definately made my hair and the hair of my friend fall out pretty fast. By the end of the 1st week i was waking up with about 12 hairs on my pillow. I have never lost hair to superdrol nor anything else except maybe a high dose of npp so i am usually not prone to shedding. Either way, if i hadnt shedded on this compound, i definately would have to say it was one of the best compounds ive used in a while. Great feeling while on it, very mild, no sides, ( except my hairloss). So give it a shot guys, and if you dont see any shedding, do it up and get huge

 

[LakeMountD]

Yeah genetics definitely plays into it. I have the beginnings of MPB and I noticed some shedding as well, although I do know a lot of people who took it and said it was very mild, so it will vary person to person.

 

[DR.D]

Epi definately made my hair and the hair of my friend fall out pretty fast. By the end of the 1st week i was waking up with about 12 hairs on my pillow. I have never lost hair to superdrol nor anything else except maybe a high dose of npp so i am usually not prone to shedding. Either way, if i hadnt shedded on this compound, i definately would have to say it was one of the best compounds ive used in a while. Great feeling while on it, very mild, no sides, ( except my hairloss). So give it a shot guys, and if you dont see any shedding, do it up and get huge

Derty! Where you been man? Sorry about the shedding. How was your skin, oily? Or was it a 'dry skin' shed? I wonder if a topical like Niz might help.

 

[BigVrunga]

Dr.D - does Epi do any conversion through 5AR? If its the epistane molecule itself that's causing the shedding, 2% topical Spiro 1-2x per day, along with Ketoconozole shampoo (Nizoral) to alleviate inflammation would be your first line of defence.

If some type of 5AR conversion is involved, Finasteride would help as well - as long as the compound doesnt need 5AR enzyme to convert into something less androgenic.

BV

 

[DR.D]

Dr.D - does Epi do any conversion through 5AR? If its the epistane molecule itself that's causing the shedding, 2% topical Spiro 1-2x per day, along with Ketoconozole shampoo (Nizoral) to alleviate inflammation would be your first line of defence.

If some type of 5AR conversion is involved, Finasteride would help as well - as long as the compound doesnt need 5AR enzyme to convert into something less androgenic.

BV

No 5-AR involvement (adverse metabolism), so I agree topical Niz would be my first method of prevention.

 

[sdmf45]

I've heard that shedding doesn't always mean MPB. Is that true?

 

[swole210]

I'm defiantely noticing my scalp a lot more on it:rant: ! But not as bad as PP!

 

[calidood]

Epi definately made my hair and the hair of my friend fall out pretty fast. By the end of the 1st week i was waking up with about 12 hairs on my pillow. I have never lost hair to superdrol nor anything else except maybe a high dose of npp so i am usually not prone to shedding. Either way, if i hadnt shedded on this compound, i definately would have to say it was one of the best compounds ive used in a while. Great feeling while on it, very mild, no sides, ( except my hairloss). So give it a shot guys, and if you dont see any shedding, do it up and get huge

Did that hair grow back after you were done with the cycle? Or was it gone for good?

 

[dertynasty]

Derty! Where you been man? Sorry about the shedding. How was your skin, oily? Or was it a 'dry skin' shed? I wonder if a topical like Niz might help.

Around man, still droppin in to read here from time to time.
Ive had lots of q's I wanted to ask you but never got around to actually writing them out. Either way, its been a grip, but its good to see AM is still keepin it tyte and yeah epistane is the ****. Too bad my hair fell out, but it wasnt dry or anything just would fall out during random times like in the shower or something.

I think ima stay clean for a while, right now im on the anabolic diet so im seeing how that works out for me. Its pretty crazy.

 

[calidood]

Epi definately made my hair and the hair of my friend fall out pretty fast. By the end of the 1st week i was waking up with about 12 hairs on my pillow. I have never lost hair to superdrol nor anything else except maybe a high dose of npp so i am usually not prone to shedding. Either way, if i hadnt shedded on this compound, i definately would have to say it was one of the best compounds ive used in a while. Great feeling while on it, very mild, no sides, ( except my hairloss). So give it a shot guys, and if you dont see any shedding, do it up and get huge

Did the hair grow back or was it gone for good?

 

[charger71]

Did that hair grow back after you were done with the cycle? Or was it gone for good?

bump to that, does any of this hair grow back or is it gone for good?

 

[DR.D]

bump to that, does any of this hair grow back or is it gone for good?

It grows back IF it hasn't been gone for too long (like years usually) or so I here.

 

[BigVrunga]

bump to that, does any of this hair grow back or is it gone for good?

Genetic expression of MPB differs from person to person. There are many factors involved, and it's believed that DHT activity on the scalp's hair follicle receptors may be the primary culprit in hair loss. It definitely appears to be the case, as DHT inhibiting topicals and systemic treatments seem to have a positive effect for most.

If you're prone to MPB, and you flood your system with extrgenous androgens, chances are you WILL lose hair for this very reason. When those androgen levels are lowered, the hair should at least stop falling out if you're young enough. It seems that, as males age, the receptors build up increased sensitivity to androgenic alopecia (think about it - as guys get older their test levels decline and yet more hair falls out!). Regrowth will depend entirely on your genetics - if you have a lot of guys in your family that went bald early and you have the same hairline - the androgens may just kick off your MPB a few years early for you.


Your BEST bet is to prevent the hairloss altogether. Either a.)dont use hormones that can contribute to hair loss or b.)take the proper protective measures.

For a compound like Epistane, with no 5AR activity, this should be a topical general androgen blocker like 2% Spironolactone 2x/day along with Nizoral shampoo 1x ED. Hitting your scalp with the laser brush for 5-10minutes a day wouldnt hurt either, as it helps create optimal conditions for hair growth.

Do NOT use a compound like minoxidil unless you're fighting genetic MPB and plan to keep using it forever.

IMO, if you're worried about hairloss and you're already going bald start a serious hair loss prevention regimen asap. The sooner the better if you want to have any hopes of running hairloss free cycles and intend to keep the hair on your head as long as possible.

BV

 

[jonesboy]

bump for bigV also some finestride will do the trick 9 out of 10 times

 

[FitModel]

For a compound like Epistane, with no 5AR activity, this should be a topical general androgen blocker like 2% Spironolactone 2x/day along with Nizoral shampoo 1x ED. Hitting your scalp with the laser brush for 5-10minutes a day wouldnt hurt either, as it helps create optimal conditions for hair growth.

I know I've seen Nizoral Shampoo at like Target and the grocery store and stuff...where would I find spiro?

 

[BigVrunga]

I know I've seen Nizoral Shampoo at like Target and the grocery store and stuff...where would I find spiro?

You can find Spiro online - WholeSale Hair Products, inc  or Balding.

Although generally Sprio has no side effects applied topically, you still need to be careful with it. Apply sparingly only to the affected areas of the scalp, and if you notice any negative sides like headaches, low test sides, etc discontinue use.

Everyone is different - Ive read of some people having issues with topical Spironolactone.

 

[dess]

so using topical spiro during a cycle could interfere with teh androgenic affects of a compound like epistane???

 

[LakeMountD]

so using topical spiro during a cycle could interfere with teh androgenic affects of a compound like epistane???

Yeah I was under the impression that it would only block DHT converting compounds. Then again I haven't looked too much into hair loss prevention either.

 

[BigVrunga]

so using topical spiro during a cycle could interfere with teh androgenic affects of a compound like epistane???

If you are for some reason effected systemically by topical Spironolactone, then yes it could.

Keep in mind that most studies have shown no adverse systemic side effects from 2% topical Spiro. I myself use it 1x per day (<1ml applied sparingly with a dabber bottle) with no apparent adverse sides.

My cause for concern is that we had a forum member report some a drastic reduction in testosterone after using Minoxidil.com's 2% spiro solution, which is the same one I and many other use to combat hair loss. Its an anecdotal report as it was never confirmed that it was actually the spiro that was causing his issues - but still with such a potent anti-androgen you should always use caution.

Yeah I was under the impression that it would only block DHT converting compounds. Then again I haven't looked too much into hair loss prevention either.

Spironolactone is a general androgen blocker - it binds to the androgen receptor itself and thus blocks anything that could attach to it. DHT, test, etc.

Spironolactone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its very potent and possibly carcinogenic and should be used with extreme caution.

Keep in mind that an average dose of Spironolactone when administered orally is 50mg/day. I typically apply <.25mg to the MPB effected areas of my scalp and even under the best transdermal absorption conditions that's ~.125mg absorbed into the bloodstream.

With that in mind you can see why carefully applied topical sprio has a low incidence of systemic sides - and also why it would be highly unlikely that it would have negative impact on any kind of anabolic hormone cycle.

BV

 

[UNCnate]

So the general consensus here is that Epistane doesnt cause hairloss by 5-AR, and that Propecia wouldnt prevent it.

Also, Ive been on Propecia for almost a year to help with MPB, with decent success. No regrowth but it seemed to have stopped the loss.

Are yall saying that 2% Nizoral will *should* prevent the hairloss associated with Epistane?

Hairloss is the only thing stopping me from using it to this point.

 

[BigVrunga]

Ketoconazole has been found to bind to the androgen receptor when taken orally, so it may help when used as a EOD shampoo in that regard.

However, I think Nizoral's main contribution to hairloss prevention is that it clears the sebum from the scalp. This helps to unclog pores and provide an optimal environment for hair growth. This is also ideal on a cycle where you skin is producing more oils, etc.

It is suggested that a yet unknown method of action is responsible for Ketoconazole's apparent ability to stimulate hair growth as well.

I think its an important part of any hairloss prevention protocol, however keep in mind that if you're trying to use it to stave off hair loss from anabolics, Ketoconazole's half life invivo is 8 hours. You're using it topically every other day, and rinsing it off after 5 minutes.

I think it most certainly helps block androgens in the scalp, however if you are trying to prevent hair loss from a cycle IMO you really need to consider using a more potent anti-androgen like spiro or fluridil in combination with EOD Nizoral use.

BV

 

[BigVrunga]

So the general consensus here is that Epistane doesnt cause hairloss by 5-AR, and that Propecia wouldnt prevent it.

Also, Ive been on Propecia for almost a year to help with MPB, with decent success. No regrowth but it seemed to have stopped the loss.

If you really want to stimulate hair *growth*, you need to combine Finasteride with a product like the Laser Comb or Minoxidil. Propecia blocks DHT, which should help stop the hair from shedding but wont do much to force it into a growth phase. Of course this depends on age and genetics, etc.

BV

 

[fritzer]

where can you get nizoral?

 

[swole210]

where can you get nizoral?

Any local drug store such as CVS or even Walmart carry it.

 

[calidood]

I think you can find nizoral at target and stuff but I have seen it at like great clips and stuff like that. just look at salon's if you can't find it at target.

 

[celc5]

Do Nioxin products fit in this mix at all?

Nioxin shampoo and coniditioner have greatly slowed my shedding. But I don't use the spray as it slightly lowers my libido after about 2-4 weeks. I buy Nioxin at salons.

 

[sfearl1]

Do Nioxin products fit in this mix at all?

Nioxin shampoo and coniditioner have greatly slowed my shedding. But I don't use the spray as it slightly lowers my libido after about 2-4 weeks. I buy Nioxin at salons.

i've always had fine hair and i've noticed a little thinning since i ran a couple s.d cycles. though its only minor thinning, i've been interested in trying this nioxin shampoo. would it inhibit any of my gains as i'm on cycle right now??

 

[celc5]

i've always had fine hair and i've noticed a little thinning since i ran a couple s.d cycles. though its only minor thinning, i've been interested in trying this nioxin shampoo. would it inhibit any of my gains as i'm on cycle right now??

I'd find it hard to believe that this stuff is strong enough to have any negative affects on a cycle. But, I'd wait for a more informed opinion than mine as I don't know about the chemistry of these products.

Here's a few tidbits for what's on the bottle:

Cleanser (shampoo):
-cleanses, detoxifies, and volumizes
-botanicals, humectants (wtf are those?), and white tea extract (antioxidant)
-"cleanses away toxins, residue, and DHT

*I just feel a cleaner scalp with the cleanser and notice that my scalp is a bit itchy when I use other shampoos.

Scalp Therapy (conditioner):
-moisturizes and energizes
-botanicals, humectants
-"relieves scalp tightness and resotres moisture balance, while adding volume and strength to fine/thinning hair"

*In my experience, this is the more important of the 2 products. After showering, it feels like my scalp, which is severely dry usually, has normal moisture and sort of breathes better.

Actives (treatment):
-increases microcirculation
-not much else on the bottle

*I swear I have a lower libido after a few weeks on this stuff. Comes back in a few days after stopping.

There is also a nioxin gel that makes your hair look and feel thicker. But it smells like fish food flakes and I threw it away after using it just a handful of times.

I believe Nioxin has a new line out now for different stages of thinning hair. I am not familiar with those products as I bought about a year's worth of the old forumula on a closeout sale when the new stuff came out.

 

[sfearl1]

i'd imagine if it has that much of an affect on your libido it probably would throw your cycle off a little. anybody else have experience with this product??

 

[celc5]

I totally forgot to mention this... A few years ago I tried an over the counter product called "Thicker Fuller Hair." I used the mouse, shampoo, and conditioner. I can't remember the brand name and haven't been able to find it at the stores any more. If I remember correctly, it worked just as good, if not better, than Nioxin at a cheaper price.

 

[BigVrunga]

i've always had fine hair and i've noticed a little thinning since i ran a couple s.d cycles. though its only minor thinning, i've been interested in trying this nioxin shampoo. would it inhibit any of my gains as i'm on cycle right now??

All Nioxin is is a hair thickener/conditioner. It does nothing to inhibit the genetic expression of MPB and there for would have no adverse effect on cycle. It wont help you keep your hair, either.

http://www.nioxin.com/files/ingredients/Ingreds_1-8/System 2.pdf

BV

 

[neoborn]

Discussing this, Do you guys think that 1000mg timed release of Saw Palmetto a day that blocks DHT will negatively impact my EPI cycle in anyway?

Thanks in advance!

 

[BigVrunga]

Discussing this, Do you guys think that 1000mg timed release of Saw Palmetto a day that blocks DHT will negatively impact my EPI cycle in anyway?

Thanks in advance!

No, Epistane shouldnt convert via 5AR.

BV

 

[UNCnate]

I just ordered 2 bottles of Epistane as well as 2 months worth of Fluridil.

Hopefully that'll keep any shedding that can occur from happening.

Ill be running a low dose of Fin as well. .25mg to .5, not sure yet.

If anyone would be interested in seeing how that handles the situation let me know.

Ill be starting soon.

 

[FitModel]

I just ordered 2 bottles of Epistane as well as 2 months worth of Fluridil.

Hopefully that'll keep any shedding that can occur from happening.

Ill be running a low dose of Fin as well. .25mg to .5, not sure yet.

If anyone would be interested in seeing how that handles the situation let me know.

Ill be starting soon.

where did you get Fluridil. (that is OTC) i'm assuming

 

[UNCnate]

where did you get Fluridil. (that is OTC) i'm assuming

Ordered it off their website.

 

[FitModel]

I found nizoral at the store, but it's only 1% keta (whatever)

is that the right one?


also should I stack it with spiro?

 

[celc5]

I took a look at the Nizoral directions in the store yesterday. They say to use it once only every 3 to 4 days. Why is that? And, would you have to up the frequency if you were on cycle?

 

[BigVrunga]

I just ordered 2 bottles of Epistane as well as 2 months worth of Fluridil.

Hopefully that'll keep any shedding that can occur from happening.

Ill be running a low dose of Fin as well. .25mg to .5, not sure yet.

If anyone would be interested in seeing how that handles the situation let me know.

Ill be starting soon.

Keep us posted - remember to follow the directions on the fluridil. H2O supposedly degrades the molecule rapidly so your hair and scalp must be dry before application.

I took a look at the Nizoral directions in the store yesterday. They say to use it once only every 3 to 4 days. Why is that? And, would you have to up the frequency if you were on cycle?

Ketoconozole can reduce the sebum in your scalp, resulting in dryness and irritation. It's still recommended to use Nizoral EOD to fight MPB though. To combat any scalp irritation, be sure to follow the Nizoral with good conditioner and be sure to get in your EFA's.

BV

 

[FitModel]

so what is the difference between "Nizoral 2% Shampoo" and "Nizoral A-D Shampoo"

both offered at

http://www.wholesalehairproducts.com/


are they the same thing? or which should I get, becuase they have the Nizoral A-D Shampoo at my local grocery store...and I think the ingridients are 1% Keto somethinggg

 

[BigVrunga]

Nizoral AD is the OTC version of Nizoral. It has 1% Ketoconozole vs 2% of the 'standard' Nizoral. Get the 2% if you want to stave off hair loss. Ive read that either is effective, but generally when people are talking about 'Nizoral' on hairloss forums they mean the 2%.

BV

 

[FitModel]

Nizoral AD is the OTC version of Nizoral. It has 1% Ketoconozole vs 2% of the 'standard' Nizoral. Get the 2% if you want to stave off hair loss. Ive read that either is effective, but generally when people are talking about 'Nizoral' on hairloss forums they mean the 2%.

BV

okay cool thanks...

so best way to use this is EOD, leaving it on for 3-5 minutes, then rinse and condition?

 

[kraftkid]

okay cool thanks...

so best way to use this is EOD, leaving it on for 3-5 minutes, then rinse and condition?

Thats how I've always used it. I've used Niz 2% EOD for over two years to try and stave of mpb that runs in my family. I lost little if any hair and have zero sides.

I ordered like 20 bottles at once because I had to get it from Canada, as only 1% was available OTC.

 

[kraftkid]

PS - Big V thanks for all the informative posts. It is great when experienced members take the time to share that way.

 

[BigVrunga]

PS - Big V thanks for all the informative posts. It is great when experienced members take the time to share that way.

:cheers:

 

[LakeMountD]

Guys am I missing something here? I went to CVS the other day to look at Nizoral and it said anti-dandruff? I thought someone said that it blocked DHT receptors or something?