What’s the “strongest” preworkout available today?

Supercellular

Supercellular

Member
By strongest, feel free to interpret it as whatever you think fits best. Some might think the strongest is the best for improving performance in the gym, or else strongest = most stimulants but whatever it means to you I’m curious as to what comes out top.
 
yeah thats tough bc everyone will have different category .. im all about pumps to me that is strongest how it makes me.

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currently doing my own bulk powders pre - creatine hcl flavored, mcc, betaine, agmatine
caps - phosphatic acid xt +pepti

previous to that i did caps and keep an extra in my gym bag or traveling
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GQdaLEGEND said:
yeah thats tough bc everyone will have different category .. im all about pumps to me that is strongest how it makes me.

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currently doing my own bulk powders pre - creatine hcl flavored, mcc, betaine, agmatine
caps - phosphatic acid xt +pepti

previous to that i did caps and keep an extra in my gym bag or traveling
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I've been using the pump addict with 2 caps amentoflavone-xt and the pump is absolutely insane. I recommend taking a dump before the work as the intense pump makes it a bit difficult to wipe afterwards 😂
 
GQdaLEGEND said:
yeah thats tough bc everyone will have different category .. im all about pumps to me that is strongest how it makes me.

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currently doing my own bulk powders pre - creatine hcl flavored, mcc, betaine, agmatine
caps - phosphatic acid xt +pepti

previous to that i did caps and keep an extra in my gym bag or traveling
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not to kiss @sns8778 ass too much, but yeah pump addict is the perfect balance/strength for me, in fact I need to order more Steve.... I get a heightened level of focus on pump addict.

Back in the day of course it was jack3d, and I feel like pump addict gives me all the upside jack3d did but without the downsides. I'm a 22yr preWO veteran FWIW.

in a pinch when I am out of pump addict I have grabbed ghost while ordering more Pump Addict. I think the Alpha GPC in the ghost single servings had a positive impact on my concentration when golfing, but I have not personally noticed that I am effected by the GPC in the gym.
 
hercules_22 said:
Apollon Nutrition Assassin V8. Wayyyyyy too strong for the likes of meInvalid Link Removed
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Yeah, anything Apollon is over the top!

You can't get this anymore but I'm currently going through a tub of Vicious Labs Juice Daddy (mostly stims). I finally told myself to dial it back to 3/4 scoop. I was too stimmed during my workout and crashing a few hours later.

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rodefeeh said:
Yeah, anything Apollon is over the top!

You can't get this anymore but I'm currently going through a tub of Vicious Labs Juice Daddy (mostly stims). I finally told myself to dial it back to 3/4 scoop. I was too stimmed during my workout and crashing a few hours later.

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ohh yeah juice daddy was nice .. felt like i was on crack
 
One of the strongest dosed one I've found is Bio'Pump'd . I can't handle the too strong stim/AY SUPER bioFREAK OMG version so I stick with the stim free typically.
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AwakeningAlpha said:
One of the strongest dosed one I've found is Bio'Pump'd . I can't handle the too strong stim/AY SUPER bioFREAK OMG version so I stick with the stim free typically.
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10mg of AY, that would send me straight to the hospital. Hopefully that isnt pure AY.
 
rodefeeh said:
10mg of AY, that would send me straight to the hospital. Hopefully that isnt pure AY.
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It does not feel good, I hate any amount of AY tho. Especially w 350mg of caffeine and 320mg other stims.
The non stim is my go to. 10,000mg L-citruline and the mucuna / huperzine make for a solid pre.
 
Supercellular said:
By strongest, feel free to interpret it as whatever you think fits best. Some might think the strongest is the best for improving performance in the gym, or else strongest = most stimulants but whatever it means to you I’m curious as to what comes out top.
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Probably meth

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On a more serious note, although Some of these pre workouts on the market you might as well take meth, but..... last month i logged seismic surge, its the top one that @LeanEngineer listed above. 1 scoop was too much for me. Espically on a empty stomach. 1/2 scoop was perfect. If your looking for a ton of that stim feel i would reccomend that at a full scoop.
 
As it always was, so it ever shall be:

Ephedrine.

You can stack that with anything to supercharge your energy and performance. Even a tab with just a big cup of coffee will outperform many modern blends in actual net effect. Or add it to your favorite comprehensive ergogen blend to hit another gear of stimulation. Good mood & smooth long-lasting energy with added focus.

In the US you can still get it otc at pharmacies in most states. YMMV.
 
Og crack or crack gold by dark labs strongest I tried. Exelscior was a favorite when it was spiked but I still liked crack better. There is a guy that reviews them all on YouTube and tells you what ones probably are spiked. Ha. One called smash was suppose to be spiked but not sure iif it still is. Haven't used one for months but a few I remember was Helios, burnout, wild fire, etc. lots more super strong ones. Besides keeping an eye out for reviews for a spiked pre the best bet is getting some dmaa, can't remember spelling but something like Urii jenesis, and some caffeine. Will be super strong. Ma research used to carry the dmaa and I'd imagine he still does. The ingredient I couldn't spell is carried by Sns. And caffeine is easy to get.
 
baldwanus said:
Pretty sure the store brand at Walgreens is like $13 for a box.
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Can confirm

Jstrong20 said:
Og crack or crack gold by dark labs strongest I tried. Exelscior was a favorite when it was spiked but I still liked crack better. There is a guy that reviews them all on YouTube and tells you what ones probably are spiked. Ha. One called smash was suppose to be spiked but not sure iif it still is. Haven't used one for months but a few I remember was Helios, burnout, wild fire, etc. lots more super strong ones. Besides keeping an eye out for reviews for a spiked pre the best bet is getting some dmaa, can't remember spelling but something like Urii jenesis, and some caffeine. Will be super strong. Ma research used to carry the dmaa and I'd imagine he still does. The ingredient I couldn't spell is carried by Sns. And caffeine is easy to get.
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Yes, SNS ‘Eria Jarensis’ kicks ass when stacked with even just a bit of caffeine. It’s a great option when you don’t want to use ephedrine but you still want a potent, long-lasting boost for your caffeine-based stack. It’s actually in the Pump Addict blend someone mentioned at the beginning of this thread.
 
Lots of interesting responses here. Some nice looking products.

pump wise, does anyone know of a more loaded formula than this one? Pump addict is a nice product, I’ve used a few similar ones but just look at the dosing on the ingredients here! No idea who’d justify paying this much though.

Stimulant wise, @Jstrong20 you find crack stronger than excelsior? Cos after dmaa got banned and it then came back under hi-tech I refuse to believe for a second that it was the same ingredient.

I’d taken Jack3d, and dexaprine back in the day (dexa was the strongest stim product I’ve ever taken, even more than OG Craze/Jack3D). I noticed the dmaa versions came back but if you tried them before vs after the ban you’d know they weren’t containing any active 1,3.

Ephedrine, for sure, but I’d not class that as a supplement but a drug.
 

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Supercellular said:
I’d taken Jack3d, and dexaprine back in the day (dexa was the strongest stim product I’ve ever taken, even more than OG Craze/Jack3D). I noticed the dmaa versions came back but if you tried them before vs after the ban you’d know they weren’t containing any active 1,3.

Ephedrine, for sure, but I’d not class that as a supplement but a drug.
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Caffeine is legally classified as a drug. You can buy it as a supplement. Ephedrine is classified as a drug. You previously could buy it as a supplement, and still otc. DMAA falls into the same position as Ephedrine, except you can’t even get it otc (besides whatever Hi Tech claims they sell under their patent).

You can use whatever word salad justification you please, but a high-powered stim blend that you are hoping is spiked with amphetamine analogues is not lesser drug use in practical health risk than taking ephedrine produced from a legal pharmaceutical manufacturer.
 
I used exelscior when it was spiked and it definatley lasted way longer but when it wore off the crash was brutal for me. I like dmaa products. Many that claim they have it in the fiormula I think are lieing. Crack feels legit. Awesome focus and energy. A full scoop is almost to much and I usually used 3/4 a scoop. As posted above good old eca works ok to. I actually just picked up some bronkaid at rite-aid about a week ago. Imo dmaa is superior to ephedrine for preworkout at least for me. I also didn't list another favorite of mine but I'll throw it out there and do with it what you will. Be warned it is addictive and can't be used everyday. 6 grams green kratom( white will work but I usually get green malay) caffeine, 2mgs nicotine.
 
Jstrong20 said:
I used exelscior when it was spiked and it definatley lasted way longer but when it wore off the crash was brutal for me. I like dmaa products. Many that claim they have it in the fiormula I think are lieing. Crack feels legit. Awesome focus and energy. A full scoop is almost to much and I usually used 3/4 a scoop. As posted above good old eca works ok to. I actually just picked up some bronkaid at rite-aid about a week ago. Imo dmaa is superior to ephedrine for preworkout at least for me. I also didn't list another favorite of mine but I'll throw it out there and do with it what you will. Be warned it is addictive and can't be used everyday. 6 grams green kratom( white will work but I usually get green malay) caffeine, 2mgs nicotine.
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I definitely feel DMAA, at least what used to be around many years back, was more potent & euphoric than ephedrine. It also had more sides, but that’s to be expected with a bigger up.

Many years back, I would start a powerlifting meet with ephedrine with my normal preWO cocktail. Enhanced my energy & focus without sending me off the rails. But before deadlifts later, I would add DMAA. It didn’t matter that I would crash after because it was the last event for the day. Definitely made it easier to hit that peak state of arousal.
 
Supercellular said:
Lots of interesting responses here. Some nice looking products.

pump wise, does anyone know of a more loaded formula than this one? Pump addict is a nice product, I’ve used a few similar ones but just look at the dosing on the ingredients here! No idea who’d justify paying this much though.
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Pump Addict Ultra Hardcore pricing ranges from 37.95 to 49.99 for 40 servings.

Even at full retail which is 49.99, that's only 1.25 per serving or 2.50 per serving if you use the maximum dose.

The dosage is strong at 1 scoop and very strong at 2 scoops - most people find that they only use 1 scoop.
 
sns8778 said:
Pump Addict Ultra Hardcore pricing ranges from 37.95 to 49.99 for 40 servings.

Even at full retail which is 49.99, that's only 1.25 per serving or 2.50 per serving if you use the maximum dose.

The dosage is strong at 1 scoop and very strong at 2 scoops - most people find that they only use 1 scoop.
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Can confirm - 1 scoop of that stuff is a powerful boost. There’s a lot of ingredient synergy to keep it smooth & long-lasting, while delivering over 500mg of stimulants in a single scoop.

I have done 90 min fasted cardio sessions on that, just dialed in with a great mood & focus where I didn’t want to stop.
 
Hyde said:
I definitely feel DMAA, at least what used to be around many years back, was more potent & euphoric than ephedrine. It also had more sides, but that’s to be expected with a bigger up.

Many years back, I would start a powerlifting meet with ephedrine with my normal preWO cocktail. Enhanced my energy & focus without sending me off the rails. But before deadlifts later, I would add DMAA. It didn’t matter that I would crash after because it was the last event for the day. Definitely made it easier to hit that peak state of arousal.
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That seems like a smart way to do it. Op seems real excited to find the next crazy pre. I should of made it clear I also would not use dmaa based stuff on ther daily. Probably more then I should of but I worked seven days a week and only got a few hours of sleep a night. For prs strong stims are great but I'd imagine they have detrimental effects to muscle building if used daily not to mention the severe crash it can cause. I would think one of Sns preworkouts would be much better for daily use. Also dmaa negative effect was obvious everytime I took a piss for the next couple hours. Weiner looked like I just got out of an ice bath. Lol
 
Also since I mention Kratom. I should mention I used it once every morning for awhile. As I said I worked 7 days a week. Everytime I had a day off I didn't take it and was so tired. Thought I was just overworked. Lol wrong. Started reading around and turned it my body was addicted to Kratom. I knew it was addictive but thought once a day would be ok. Read stories of people using it every few hours. Sometimes I did go twice a day. Anyway when I stopped it it must of took a month to recover. Never craved it but tired all day everyday. It's a good tool and I'll still use it some. But yeah never daily again.
 
Hyde said:
Can confirm - 1 scoop of that stuff is a powerful boost. There’s a lot of ingredient synergy to keep it smooth & long-lasting, while delivering over 500mg of stimulants in a single scoop.

I have done 90 min fasted cardio sessions on that, just dialed in with a great mood & focus where I didn’t want to stop.
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Thanks for posting that, and I agree. That has been my experience as well.

The energy is like a great clean, smooth long lasting energy and the pumps are great.

I'm like you - I've found that I've had to make myself stop working out, both weights and cardio bc I could have just kept on going past the point where it would have been beneficial, just from being in the zone on it.

I have a very high tolerance to stims and one scoop is all I use most of the time, occasionally 1.5 scoops but that's usually if I'm working out and then doing something after where I don't want to feel drained from my workout.

The first time I ever used Pump Addict was funny bc I took 2 scoops bc I am very stim tolerant - I took it just to try it. Our warehouse manager thought I was pissed at him bc I was in the back organizing and moving some pallets and stuff back there that needed to be done. He thought I was mad at him for not getting around to it yet - and it was like - nah, I just had to do something and my mind was zoned in.

2 scoops for me now is like the perfect have to clean my house all day or yardwork all day type of thing where I'll mix 2 scoops and drink one and sip the rest throughout the day.
 
Cheeky Monkey said:
I remember MA Labs had some good stuff like Collision Course and Methyl Blue.
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I don't know if I mentioned this publicly before or not, but each full serving of Methyl-BLUE (too strong for most people) contains a full GRAM of Eria Jarensis and a full GRAM of PEA, plus a bunch of MAO-B inhibitors, DMHA, etc. :) LOL.
 
Mike Arnold said:
I don't know if I mentioned this publicly before or not, but each full serving of Methyl-BLUE (too strong for most people) contains a full GRAM of Eria Jarensis and a full GRAM of PEA, plus a bunch of MAO-B inhibitors, DMHA, etc. :) LOL.
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Mike Arnold said:
I don't know if I mentioned this publicly before or not, but each full serving of Methyl-BLUE (too strong for most people) contains a full GRAM of Eria Jarensis and a full GRAM of PEA, plus a bunch of MAO-B inhibitors, DMHA, etc. :) LOL.
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Mike Arnold said:
I don't know if I mentioned this publicly before or not, but each full serving of Methyl-BLUE (too strong for most people) contains a full GRAM of Eria Jarensis and a full GRAM of PEA, plus a bunch of MAO-B inhibitors, DMHA, etc. :) LOL.
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The h3ll you say def need to grab a bottle to try. The combination of all that won't produce any yohimbe type sides, correct?
 
Mike Arnold said:
I don't know if I mentioned this publicly before or not, but each full serving of Methyl-BLUE (too strong for most people) contains a full GRAM of Eria Jarensis and a full GRAM of PEA, plus a bunch of MAO-B inhibitors, DMHA, etc. :) LOL.
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5 caps of Methyl-blue preworkout definitely hits hard.
 
rodefeeh said:
Yeah, anything Apollon is over the top!

You can't get this anymore but I'm currently going through a tub of Vicious Labs Juice Daddy (mostly stims). I finally told myself to dial it back to 3/4 scoop. I was too stimmed during my workout and crashing a few hours later.

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you can still get Juice Daddy, just grabbed a few tubs not too long ago 👍 that and Pump Addict are my go-to Pre’s. If I’m wanting a non-stim/easier travel option I go with Super Swole (stack SS and Pump Addict for a good a** time 😎)
 
Hyde said:
Caffeine is legally classified as a drug. You can buy it as a supplement. Ephedrine is classified as a drug. You previously could buy it as a supplement, and still otc. DMAA falls into the same position as Ephedrine, except you can’t even get it otc (besides whatever Hi Tech claims they sell under their patent).

You can use whatever word salad justification you please, but a high-powered stim blend that you are hoping is spiked with amphetamine analogues is not lesser drug use in practical health risk than taking ephedrine produced from a legal pharmaceutical manufacturer.
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Not at all. I’ve taken those kinds before but not for years.

Posted this up cos a buddy of mine is convinced that the guys on the Reddit preworkout supps board are the place to go and I told him that I’d not trust that place at all cos I told him there’s a shitload of stuff he’s convinced must be the strongest which, despite being legal to sell isn’t actually sold by anyone bar some really unknown websites.

His latest obsession is one called Zeus, before that is was Juiced and before that El Jefe and Smash AMF.

That’s what prompted this post, I’m not looking for a preworkout for myself, just sceptical as ****.
 
I think its important to distinguish what people are actually looking for.

1) There are people that are looking for the the strongest types of products that contain ingredients that are legal and that are manufactured in cGMP compliant facilities with all proper testing to make sure they are getting exactly what they are supposed to be.

2) There are people that just want something strong and aren't worried about their health or the risks involved in taking things that may not meet label claims and that aren't tested for even basic heavy metals, microbial, etc.

3) There are people that take things intentionally hoping for or wanting them to be spiked with amphetamines or amphetamine like drugs.

I'm very personal choice - so I don't care what people put in their own bodies - but my worry with it all is that I think people have the right to know what they are taking, if they want to know and are concerned with their overall health.

It's one thing if a person is looking for a spiked product or recklessly dosed product in a prop blend, but its different if an unsuspecting consumer thinks they're buying something safe and sanely dosed and winds up with something like that.
 
Dark labs makes a lot of hard hitting pres, a lot of them (most) have DMHA and lots of caffeine. You can still find some of their dmaa pres in some places if you look enough, but i think they are finally phasing those out.

Apollon nutrition makes some really hard hitting stuff, like assassin and Hooligan. Loaded labels, but sometimes I find that the labels being loaded with 20billion ingredients doesn't necessarily mean a better experience. I personally like their shogun fat burner on one cap (1/2 serv). A few hours of energy and focus, with no real crash but doesn't hit hard enough to make me lose sleep.

I have been slowly getting rid of lots of my hardcore pres, and evolving my aim towards longevity and a better overall workout pump instead of being stimmed up. It has just lost its appeal anymore. After half a scoop of smash amf, I've toned down a lot (I swear that one legit scared me - felt like I did a crap ton of alpha yo or something, not a fun experience with heartrate).
 
These ridiculous pre’s are just ‘burning the candle at both ends’ …This comes from someone that highly enjoyed the OG mesomorph, and a couple others…You will out train your recovery and cause more strains, aches and pains that lead to injury.
Circadian rhythm will take a thrashing as well, which again hinders recovery etc. and will generally fuckk up your life, which alone is bad enough.

Stick to products that are legit, cleanly labeled and use as little as possible.

I’m glad that I’ve been back for a few years, to where just envisioning my workout is enough…(I’ll never give up coffee and the occasional primatene tab)

Signed,
A reformed stim junky
 
DinnerTable² said:
Dark labs makes a lot of hard hitting pres, a lot of them (most) have DMHA and lots of caffeine. You can still find some of their dmaa pres in some places if you look enough, but i think they are finally phasing those out.

Apollon nutrition makes some really hard hitting stuff, like assassin and Hooligan. Loaded labels, but sometimes I find that the labels being loaded with 20billion ingredients doesn't necessarily mean a better experience. I personally like their shogun fat burner on one cap (1/2 serv). A few hours of energy and focus, with no real crash but doesn't hit hard enough to make me lose sleep.

I have been slowly getting rid of lots of my hardcore pres, and evolving my aim towards longevity and a better overall workout pump instead of being stimmed up. It has just lost its appeal anymore. After half a scoop of smash amf, I've toned down a lot (I swear that one legit scared me - felt like I did a crap ton of alpha yo or something, not a fun experience with heartrate).
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I’ve never taken those but I recognise the names of these as ones which my buddy has said are the hardest hitting out there. What I don’t get as an old head is back in the day the strongest stuff was actually what sold the best - Jack3d, Mesomorph OG, craze, hemo rage to name a few.

If these new ones are all that, how come they’re so hard to find stocked at big sites like bb, muscle and strength, GNC, Amazon etc? Before someone says regulations, they all look compliant as far as the labels go.

Is it just young cats today don’t like the hard hitters and that is why everyone in my gym uses total war, ghost etc?
 
Supercellular said:
Not at all. I’ve taken those kinds before but not for years.

Posted this up cos a buddy of mine is convinced that the guys on the Reddit preworkout supps board are the place to go and I told him that I’d not trust that place at all cos I told him there’s a shitload of stuff he’s convinced must be the strongest which, despite being legal to sell isn’t actually sold by anyone bar some really unknown websites.

His latest obsession is one called Zeus, before that is was Juiced and before that El Jefe and Smash AMF.

That’s what prompted this post, I’m not looking for a preworkout for myself, just sceptical as ****.
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hea right. Smash amf is spiked according to most who tries it. Also el jeffe is a pretty well know. Hard hittin pre and has been around for awhile.
 
Supercellular said:
I’ve never taken those but I recognise the names of these as ones which my buddy has said are the hardest hitting out there. What I don’t get as an old head is back in the day the strongest stuff was actually what sold the best - Jack3d, Mesomorph OG, craze, hemo rage to name a few.

If these new ones are all that, how come they’re so hard to find stocked at big sites like bb, muscle and strength, GNC, Amazon etc? Before someone says regulations, they all look compliant as far as the labels go.

Is it just young cats today don’t like the hard hitters and that is why everyone in my gym uses total war, ghost etc?
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The ones that you mentioned there, as the old products that used to sell well, they at least for the most part met label claims - with the exception of Craze, which was pretty well documented.

Many of the ones that you're referring to that are only sold on obscure sites and the reasons for that is that they want to fly under the radar and they know that getting sold on mainstream sites would draw too much of the wrong type of attention to them.

Plus, many larger retailers require things that those wouldn't have - like being FDA registered, cGMP compliant, liability insurance, etc.

In regards to you saying that they appear to meet label claims, I think that most people would agree that many of the ones of that type don't - and that a lot of their customer bases hope they don't because they fall into what I mentioned in my post above as category #3 of customers:

3) There are people that take things intentionally hoping for or wanting them to be spiked with amphetamines or amphetamine like drugs.

As for what general people in the gym use, that's always going to be the most heavily advertised brands - that's regardless of quality, results, etc. bc the average consumer buys based off of advertising.
 
Pretty much what Sns said is true. Also once again it wouldn't be smart to use those types of stims daily. For a pr on certain days probably fine. For daily pre Sns or muscle addiction should be plenty. As I've said I'm pretty sure the spiked pres probably hinder muscle growth. Only good for times you really need them. Lol I've never seen a jacked meth head. They definatley have energy though.
 
For me - I've been off caffeine for 480 days as of today. I had an unhealthy relationship with it, let's leave it at that.

Hands down the best pre-workouts I've used (non-stim)

Creatine Mono stacked with L-Citrulline Malate.
^^^This alone is the isht

Also - Triton from Apex Alchemy and Pump from XPG both are badass. Neither are Stimmy and both have TAA. It's like extra horsepower running in the background.

On days where I stack topical TAA with the Creatine Mono + L-Cit Malate the workout and pump are awesome.
 
sns8778 said:
In regards to you saying that they appear to meet label claims, I think that most people would agree that many of the ones of that type don't - and that a lot of their customer bases hope they don't because they fall into what I mentioned in my post above as category #3 of customers:
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Your reply makes sense but re:this, I was referring to their labels being compliant so assumed most retailers would just sell on that basis even if they knew the label may be fictitious. I’d think anyone could list some of these on Amazon and make a killing and last I heard Amazon doesn’t have the same checks so if the label is legal it would be permitted.
 
Supercellular said:
Your reply makes sense but re:this, I was referring to their labels being compliant so assumed most retailers would just sell on that basis even if they knew the label may be fictitious. I’d think anyone could list some of these on Amazon and make a killing and last I heard Amazon doesn’t have the same checks so if the label is legal it would be permitted.
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That's not the case at all, because there have been quite a few cases of larger retailers being fined or sued over selling products that didn't have in them what the labels said, especially if they didn't do their due diligence.

There are things that larger retailers may ask for such as proof of FDA registration, proof of cGMP compliance, and especially liability insurance. And they all know that liability insurance is voided if there are stimulants in the product that aren't listed on the label or even if the amounts of certain ones that are legal go over a certain amount within a proprietary blend.

I've posted more on here than anyone about Amazon brands and testing failures - you can check my post history and I've posted lists of test results where Amazon brands fail - so testing failures are a huge issue on Amazon, and especially with Amazon exclusive brands - but those brands are also some of the most heavily advertised on Amazon. For some, it may come down to money, for some it may be them falsifying documentation to Amazon - but ironically, Amazon makes it hell for many legitimate brands to have their products listed on there.

Plus, from those brands that are intentionally spiked standpoints - their goal is likely to sell enough to make great money but not enough to get mainstream attention and be on the FDA's radar. Example - the original Craze sold well, then started selling too well, and it would up being on the cover of USA Today and an article about illegal stimulants being added to dietary supplements. The FDA doesn't play about that stuff anymore - there are people in prison right now for selling DMAA.
 
sns8778 said:
The ones that you mentioned there, as the old products that used to sell well, they at least for the most part met label claims - with the exception of Craze, which was pretty well documented.

Many of the ones that you're referring to that are only sold on obscure sites and the reasons for that is that they want to fly under the radar and they know that getting sold on mainstream sites would draw too much of the wrong type of attention to them.

Plus, many larger retailers require things that those wouldn't have - like being FDA registered, cGMP compliant, liability insurance, etc.

In regards to you saying that they appear to meet label claims, I think that most people would agree that many of the ones of that type don't - and that a lot of their customer bases hope they don't because they fall into what I mentioned in my post above as category #3 of customers:

3) There are people that take things intentionally hoping for or wanting them to be spiked with amphetamines or amphetamine like drugs.

As for what general people in the gym use, that's always going to be the most heavily advertised brands - that's regardless of quality, results, etc. bc the average consumer buys based off of advertising.
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It’s just a zero sum game to chase the latest spiked pre. I was all in on Dragon’s Mist in 2017 but I haven’t gone for Excelsior or Smash. All it really does it reduce your ability to enjoy daily pre’s and normal exercise. I feel like for me, I ran out of margin between what’s enjoyable and what’s unhealthy. And I don’t honestly want to deal with spiked, unlabeled, mislabeled products. Even prop blends are a stretch. I like to know I took a reasonable amount of stimulants and like being able to look the safety profiles up online.
 
schizm said:
The h3ll you say def need to grab a bottle to try. The combination of all that won't produce any yohimbe type sides, correct?
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There's no Yohimbe in it, so it won't produce that type of effect, but...the full dose will be too strong for the vast majority of users.
 
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