Unanswered Topic of The Week: Do you worry about long terms effects of preworkouts?

[justhere4comm]

My daily usual is a quad shot grande with easy water, so basically 4 shots of espresso, but I believe espresso has less caffeine in it than brewed coffee. You get all the flavor but less caffeine. I believe my quad shot is less than 200mg.

 

[irone93]

Thats like saying you would see signs of heart disease in your 20's....

In your 20s you can get away with anything

 

[Hyde]

Not in particular. Everything has a cost. I worry about my entire lifestyle: high BMI, PED usage, injury accrual/joint degradation, subpar diet. The brighter the candle burns the faster it melts - it’s always a compromise of living how you want vs staying alive. The goal is to convince yourself that the things needed to stay alive longer are also what you want to do.

 

[Tommywantwingy]

Every morning I wake up, I like to make myself a hearty breakfast. So I go the the facuet and fill up my coffee maker with tap water(maybe containing some xenoestrogens and trihalomethanes) and brew a nice pot of coffee (now with styrene because it has leached into it from the coffee maker). I like eggs so I get out my nonstick cookware(pfoa) and whip some up. You need bacon too(dioxins,Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons). But that isn't satisfying enough so I make some oatmeal (glyphosate) and I need some fresh blueberries on top(pesticides). And that is just breakfast.

I don't think preworkouts are to much to worry about.

 

[ValiantThor08]

I think its around 2 when we look at the general population.

I don't think anyone in this thread said coffee was unhealthy in moderation.....its mainly about the stacking of these stims and long term health.

DMAA and DHMA are bit more than 200mg of coffee..lol

Believe it or not, my heart races and has more issues with high caff, than dmaa/dmha.

 

[Admin]

Believe it or not, my heart races and has more issues with high caff, than dmaa/dmha.

I don't doubt it, which makes mixing them even more problematic for some.

 

[ValiantThor08]

I don't doubt it, which makes mixing them even more problematic for some.

Why I like 200mg caff as the sweet spot for a pre workout.

 

[bb333]

But above all, the liver and pancreas, how long can they tolerate certain "chemical" elements that we ingest?
I'm worried about this. Accumulate today, accumulate tomorrow, and the organs are affected.

 

[SkRaw85]

Worried? Not as much as I should be. I definitely have to take breaks from stims when they have no effect. DMAA/DMHA is a love hate relationship; the pump, strength endurance and euphoria is quite intoxicating, as is the compound. But at the same time it completely zeroes my appetite post workout and force feeding isn’t my most favorite thing.
These days I mostly use PWO as needed, if I am dragging ass that day then down the hatch it goes. I’m sure long term use isn’t ideal but.... a tool for every job.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Compared to all the harmful toxins, recreational drugs, over medication, and hazardous chemicals we are exposed to, I don't feel that that pre-workouts will cause any long term harm or damage.

 

[Studhorse]

Don't really worry about long term effects.
Not going to lie. I like my DMAA but only use it 1-2times a month (if i have a makeup weekend workout). I workout in the evening and hardly use stims. I also drink coffee almost all day and don't need a stim pre.

 

[SkRaw85]

Compared to all the harmful toxins, recreational drugs, over medication, and hazardous chemicals we are exposed to, I don't feel that that pre-workouts will cause any long term harm or damage.

I hear that!

 

[SkRaw85]

Don't really worry about long term effects.
Not going to lie. I like my DMAA but only use it 1-2times a month (if i have a makeup weekend workout). I workout in the evening and hardly use stims. I also drink coffee almost all day and don't need a stim pre.

That stuff definitely grabs you by the boo boo

 

[bosskardo]

Coffee has large amounts of caffeine in it. What’s the huge difference ?

Other stuff in coffee and not just the antioxidants.
Also, coffee is a better performance enhancer than just caffeine. Decaf plus caffeine was nearly as good.

 

[bosskardo]

Wouldn't say that large, compare to the 300+mg in most pre's.

Even if you drink enough coffee to get the same caffeine content, you are still way better off than taking caffeine\pwo.

 

[ValiantThor08]

Even if you drink enough coffee to get the same caffeine content, you are still way better off than taking caffeine\pwo.

Depends on the pre workout.

 

[BloodManor]

190mg and its a normal large. Most don't buy the Venti....

Your average cup of coffee in the home is 90-150mg.

I see most people getting the grande - I go to Starbucks twice a day lol. I’m a venti drinker of even Trenta. But I feel like most people consume more caffeine than assume (especially the soda drinkers)

 

[Hyde]

Honestly I don’t think caffeine is really the subject of this discussion really - it’s all the extra stimulants on top of caffeine, that kind of make you wonder. People have drank a lot of coffee for decades and it doesn’t usually affect them awfully. But nobody has been testing 30 years of DMAA usage for us.

 

[SkRaw85]

Honestly I don’t think caffeine is really the subject of this discussion really - it’s all the extra stimulants on top of caffeine, that kind of make you wonder. People have drank a lot of coffee for decades and it doesn’t usually affect them awfully. But nobody has been testing 30 years of DMAA usage for us.

We are testing 30 years of dmaa usage

 

[Admin]

I see most people getting the grande - I go to Starbucks twice a day lol. I’m a venti drinker of even Trenta. But I feel like most people consume more caffeine than assume (especially the soda drinkers)

Yes but the people that go to Starbucks are the minority....the extreme minority of coffee drinkers. Most people brew it themselves. Its like doing a general fitness study on bodybuilders. lol

 

[BloodManor]

Yes but the people that go to Starbucks are the minority....the extreme minority of coffee drinkers. Most people brew it themselves. Its like doing a general fitness study on bodybuilders. lol

Haha true

 

[Rocket3015]

We are testing 30 years of dmaa usage

I'll let know when I'm 90 !

 

[Par Deus]

We will all be Tom Hanks in Green Mile from those.

 

[ItalOne]

I only use a pre workout about 2-3 times a week. I don’t drink coffee anymore but I’ve really gotten into nurtrabio Alpha EAA’s. It still has about 150mg of caffeine but it’s also has nootropics for focus, electrolytes and obviously EAA’s. Its a great way to get sustainable energy plus much more with minimal caffeine.

 

[Rifle]

Yes I worry a bit. I prefer a pump booster like full as ... for "daily use" (4 times a week). A HC stimbooster is my choice on hard days (long day at work/tired etc) or if i want to train harder than normal.
My mindest is much better now than a few years ago. I just do my work out. I would have taken a hc stimbooster on most of these days a few years ago. I'm much more motivated now, I always loved it but it was different. Maybe it was because I worked on building sides. I'm not working physical anymore.
I really love stims in general, but every year I get older I use them less. My wife wouldn't tolerate it anyway, 3 to 4 times a week, every week.
Of course no pump booster if I train my calves!

 

[resrch3d]

Yes. Being a past lover of stims, I had too discontinue them all together. I now have much better workouts without stims and I feel they definitely cause damage to the brain and body in many ways - much of it due to brining undue stress and constiction to the overall system.

I second your opinion on this. Never thought of stims as being an issue years ago. Now I don't use any stimulant based pre-work outs or drink caffeinated beverages and after almost a year of not having them I feel a lot better.

i have better energy levels, more restful sleep, and am far less anxious.

 

[Jpat]

I don’t lift as heavy as I used to but stimulants prior to heavy squats or deadlifts used to make me a little nervous. You’re already taxing your system and added stimulation seems potentially problematic.

I know there is probably a point where the boost they give is helpful, but lifting heavy boosts the nervous system and adrenaline in its own right. A proper warm-up will provide energy even if it doesn’t come with a head rush, and there is less risk of overstimulation or cardiovascular problems.

To me personally, stimulants only make sense for endurance training and sports as aids to keep going after running out of energy.

 

[THOR 70]

I don’t lift as heavy as I used to but stimulants prior to heavy squats or deadlifts used to make me a little nervous. You’re already taxing your system and added stimulation seems potentially problematic.

I know there is probably a point where the boost they give is helpful, but lifting heavy boosts the nervous system and adrenaline in its own right. A proper warm-up will provide energy even if it doesn’t come with a head rush, and there is less risk of overstimulation or cardiovascular problems.

To me personally, stimulants only make sense for endurance training and sports as aids to keep going after running out of energy.

Well said. Cortisol is already high from the stress of lifting, then stims with long half life like caffeine keep it elevated longer than it should be

 

[smthanGod]

You would think so, but no, no it doesn't.

That would depend on what level of performance you would like to function at!

 

[kittykat07]

With the amount of stims being added together, do you worry about the long terms effects of "preworkouts"?

I wouldn’t take it daily... only take if you have low energy or need that boost for a certain body part

 

[BigBadJohn]

With the amount of stims being added together, do you worry about the long terms effects of "preworkouts"?

No, I haven’t had any adverse effects from any pre workouts yet & have been lifting for over 3 years. I do have a much better knowledge of what works & what doesn’t work for me though. There’s a **** ton of nasty tasting ineffective pre workouts around. I train after work & if it weren’t for a pre workout I probably wouldn’t even show up.

 

[THOR 70]

No, I haven’t had any adverse effects from any pre workouts yet & have been lifting for over 3 years. I do have a much better knowledge of what works & what doesn’t work for me though. There’s a **** ton of nasty tasting ineffective pre workouts around. I train after work & if it weren’t for a pre workout I probably wouldn’t even show up.

Using stimulants at night to workout because you’re too tired to show up, is not sustainable or healthy on many fronts. Can I ask how old you are?

 

[NoAddedHmones]

That would depend on what level of performance you would like to function at!

Anything thats going to increase performance aint gonna be in physiological range..so you aren’t doing “trt” per say you are simply blasting.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Using stimulants at night to workout because you’re too tired to show up, is not sustainable or healthy on many fronts. Can I ask how old you are?

Why?

 

[ValiantThor08]

Why?

High cortisol in the evening for one being very bad. Stimulants interrupting the natural sleep cycle very bad.

 

[Wobmarvel]

There has been a recent study done that shows that caffeine consumed withing 4 hours of sleep did not effect sleep quality. Worst effect was caused by smoking and then alcohol.

 

[LeanEngineer]

High cortisol in the evening for one being very bad. Stimulants interrupting the natural sleep cycle very bad.

I'll agree with this one. That's partially why I don't take pres as much as i use to. They were effecting my sleep and I feel getting a good nights sleep is more important.

 

[Hyde]

This thread inspired me to go out and buy a preWO with DMAA & DMHA and BPEA in it...

Don’t worry; it’s not for routine use - more of a “break in case of emergency” overreaching session

 

[NoAddedHmones]

High cortisol in the evening for one being very bad. Stimulants interrupting the natural sleep cycle very bad.

Lol you better not workout or do anything that causes any stress on your body then. Cortisol = devil right?

 

[THOR 70]

Lol you better not workout or do anything that causes any stress on your body then. Cortisol = devil right?

These posts are why we lose smart people on the board like spurfy

 

[Resolve10]

These posts are why we lose smart people on the board like spurfy

Do you realize you are talking to one of the smart people we probably don’t get posting as much due to these specific kinds of interactions.

 

[THOR 70]

Do you realize you are talking to one of the smart people we probably don’t get posting as much due to these specific kinds of interactions.

Based off his last two posts I disagree. I guess we have different interpretations/expectations of how we perceive “smart” or someone providing value

 

[Resolve10]

Based off his last two posts I disagree. I guess we have different interpretations/expectations of how we perceive “smart” or someone providing value

I don’t doubt that.

 

[ValiantThor08]

Lol you better not workout or do anything that causes any stress on your body then. Cortisol = devil right?

Cortisol is a necessary hormone. Cortisol spikes at bed time is not wise.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

These posts are why we lose smart people on the board like spurfy

The irony in this post is of all people you choose to mention, he is a big advocate of utilizing Glucocorticoids around workouts..

Cortisol is a necessary hormone. Cortisol spikes at bed time is not wise.

You are absolutely right, it is a necessary hormone, evidence suggests that there is a correlation between acute responses to resistance to training and greater increases in lean mass. (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-011-2246-z).

Cortisol isn't like insulin which has acute effects by binding to receptors on the cell surface eliciting immediate effects, it is more comparable to hormones like testosterone which operate at the DNA level as a transcription factor which binds to specific sequences of DNA to either increase or decrease their rate of transcription to mRNA. So people need to stop worrying about acute spikes in cortisol, because it likely isn't relevant in the scheme of things, its simply the body reacting to a stressor to get from "A to B".

Besides my comment in relation to this person training after work, using a pre-workout at 5pm for training doesn't translate into disrupted sleep? we don't know his tolerance? both of you are making blanket statements that may or may not be relevant to this person.

I also train in evenings and use stimulants every, single time. But i know what amounts my tolerance allows and still sleep like a baby despite the "unwise cortisol spike".

 

[THOR 70]

The irony in this post is of all people you choose to mention, he is a big advocate of utilizing Glucocorticoids around workouts..



You are absolutely right, it is a necessary hormone, evidence suggests that there is a correlation between acute responses to resistance to training and greater increases in lean mass. (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-011-2246-z).

Cortisol isn't like insulin which has acute effects by binding to receptors on the cell surface eliciting immediate effects, it is more comparable to hormones like testosterone which operate at the DNA level as a transcription factor which binds to specific sequences of DNA to either increase or decrease their rate of transcription to mRNA. So people need to stop worrying about acute spikes in cortisol, because it likely isn't relevant in the scheme of things, its simply the body reacting to a stressor to get from "A to B".

Besides my comment in relation to this person training after work, using a pre-workout at 5pm for training doesn't translate into disrupted sleep? we don't know his tolerance? both of you are making blanket statements that may or may not be relevant to this person.

I also train in evenings and use stimulants every, single time. But i know what amounts my tolerance allows and still sleep like a baby despite the "unwise cortisol spike".

Thank you for this positive and intellectual
Post that gives me things to research.

 

[THOR 70]

The irony in this post is of all people you choose to mention, he is a big advocate of utilizing Glucocorticoids around workouts..



You are absolutely right, it is a necessary hormone, evidence suggests that there is a correlation between acute responses to resistance to training and greater increases in lean mass. (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-011-2246-z).

Cortisol isn't like insulin which has acute effects by binding to receptors on the cell surface eliciting immediate effects, it is more comparable to hormones like testosterone which operate at the DNA level as a transcription factor which binds to specific sequences of DNA to either increase or decrease their rate of transcription to mRNA. So people need to stop worrying about acute spikes in cortisol, because it likely isn't relevant in the scheme of things, its simply the body reacting to a stressor to get from "A to B".

Besides my comment in relation to this person training after work, using a pre-workout at 5pm for training doesn't translate into disrupted sleep? we don't know his tolerance? both of you are making blanket statements that may or may not be relevant to this person.

I also train in evenings and use stimulants every, single time. But i know what amounts my tolerance allows and still sleep like a baby despite the "unwise cortisol spike".

Isn’t the natural cortisol rhythm quite standard across populations with spike in the am and decreasing during the day, towards low levels at bedtime? In essence, I would be surprised but agreeable if the spike from late night workout + large stimulant load could drop back down to baseline and not disrupt circadian rhythm. Would love more perspective on this.

 

[shazada]

I like the interaction.

I just know when I stopped taking heavy pre-workout like T-5 ephedrine and caffeine on every training day I sleep better.

I just now take them on Saturday or Sunday morning once a week and my sleep is much better.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Isn’t the natural cortisol rhythm quite standard across populations with spike in the am and decreasing during the day, towards low levels at bedtime? In essence, I would be surprised but agreeable if the spike from late night workout + large stimulant load could drop back down to baseline and not disrupt circadian rhythm. Would love more perspective on this.

The point i was trying to make in my previous post - Cortisol, like testosterone in a physiological range will not cause increased muscle loss (gain in terms of testosterone), they are each one piece of an extremely complex puzzle. In expanding on this, a transient spike in testosterone, gh or any other hormone does not lead to increased anabolism. A supraphysiological dose over a sustained period is required.

Cortisol is indeed a catabolic hormone, but evidence really only shows it becomes an issue when there is a pathology which causes Cortisol to remain chronically elevated (or low). I am yet to see any empirical evidence showing stimulants even lead to even a transient rise in cortisol outside of this range, yet alone a sustained rise.

Happy to be shown to be wrong.