The OFFICIAL Guns/Firearms/Knives Thread!
- Thread starter Trauma1
- Start date
Bolanrox
Well-known member
update from the well I am glad I am not in Cali files.
On top of the 5 dollar application fee (which i have no problem with) or the addtional $2 fee for a pistol permit required at the point in time after i get the card if i want a pistol...
I need to get finger printed - again no problem there, but the PD does not do it, you have to go to an outside place - located who knows where, and pay 57.25 for it... wow.
oh well at least i can go to the skeet club and practice for $16 for 25 rounds and 25 skeets, gun rental included..
On top of the 5 dollar application fee (which i have no problem with) or the addtional $2 fee for a pistol permit required at the point in time after i get the card if i want a pistol...
I need to get finger printed - again no problem there, but the PD does not do it, you have to go to an outside place - located who knows where, and pay 57.25 for it... wow.
oh well at least i can go to the skeet club and practice for $16 for 25 rounds and 25 skeets, gun rental included..
T-AD
Well-known member
Dang, man! It'd be cheaper for you to drive to see me and we just go out shooting!
Question for ya... Is this permit thing needed if you buy a gun in PA and then take it home, too? Just tryin' to find a loophole for ya somewhere.
Bolanrox
Well-known member
probably.
hell I could "buy" one off of my Father in law, but i still think i need the card.
Honestly i have no problem with any of it, other than the insane hoops. and $50 to get finger printed - only to have them send the results to the PD to do the check.. If it was go to the PD do it all in one shot and week or two (even a month) later you have the card I wouldnt care.
hell I could "buy" one off of my Father in law, but i still think i need the card.
Honestly i have no problem with any of it, other than the insane hoops. and $50 to get finger printed - only to have them send the results to the PD to do the check.. If it was go to the PD do it all in one shot and week or two (even a month) later you have the card I wouldnt care.
Trauma1
Legend
Here's a few of my toys and future projects. I figured I'd take some pics while I rearranged the gun safe.
Here's my Smith and Wesson M&P 15. This is for the most part a finished project. I put a lot of money into this gun, but I'm very pleased with the outcome:
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This is my WASR 10/63 (Romanian AK-47). There are a few things I want to add still, but it's almost complete. This thing is a blast (pun intended) to shoot. There is no better deal or fun to be had under $500:
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This is my Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22. This is pretty much complete as well. It's a great training tool for the AR-15 platform. It's literally set up exactly like my AR-15, just a hell of a lot cheaper to shoot:
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Here's my other current work in progress. My Remington 870 express tactical. I'll be adding a new forend and flashlight on this very soon. I have an optic and laser for it, but to be honest weight is vital, so I want to keep this light and effective:
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Now you can see why this hobby drives my wife nuts, haha. Gun projects are so much fun, and it helps tune in your gunsmithing skills.
-T1
Here's my Smith and Wesson M&P 15. This is for the most part a finished project. I put a lot of money into this gun, but I'm very pleased with the outcome:
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This is my WASR 10/63 (Romanian AK-47). There are a few things I want to add still, but it's almost complete. This thing is a blast (pun intended) to shoot. There is no better deal or fun to be had under $500:
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This is my Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22. This is pretty much complete as well. It's a great training tool for the AR-15 platform. It's literally set up exactly like my AR-15, just a hell of a lot cheaper to shoot:
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Here's my other current work in progress. My Remington 870 express tactical. I'll be adding a new forend and flashlight on this very soon. I have an optic and laser for it, but to be honest weight is vital, so I want to keep this light and effective:
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Now you can see why this hobby drives my wife nuts, haha. Gun projects are so much fun, and it helps tune in your gunsmithing skills.
-T1
T-AD
Well-known member
Awesome collection, John! Definitely like what you have going on there. And happy to see the word "WASR" crop up. Saw one for like $300 in a flyer the other day for a local sporting goods shop and didn't know what it was or if it was anything I could be interested in. Any feedback on 'em? If I could, I'd opt to get one and remove the wood, replace with more modern looking stuffs - tac' it out, so to speak.
Trauma1
Legend
Thanks, mang.
WASR 10 and 10/63 are basically romanian AK-47's. They were originally built to comply with the ban (only 10 round magazines), but then modified to accept 30 round magazines once imported here; as well as the mandatory 922r compliance parts. Some will say they're cheaper end, but I've never had one issue with my gun. This gun has spit out everything I've fed it and then some. These guns were made to shoot anything and literally without maintenance. The gas piston system they utilize literally keeps the action relatively clean; which is why it just keeps going and going.
The action on the AK-47 platform is considered "loose", so that's what gives it the legendary ability in terms of reliability. It allows for debris and muck to be present and continue without malfunction. Where if you don't clean your AR-15 I can promise you that you'll develop problems. You're not going to get the accuracy of an AR-15 out of it either, but the 7.62 x 39 round is extremely deadly at 100-200 yards.
I replaced the wood furniture on this when I got it. I like to keep the "commie" guns looking original, but a few of my buddies love making them more tactical looking. The company Arsenal in Nevada makes some very nice Ak's. They're definitely more top end. I want to get one and make it more of a tactical AK variant.
The best part is the ammo is DIRT cheap, and you can fire all the cheap/crap russian steel ammo out of it all day long without a malfunction.
-T1
Trauma1
Legend
Damn, I forgot all about the Saiga 12. It's a badazz mofo for sure.
Put a drum mag on it and talk about some serious firepower, haha!
WarcraftJJS
Well-known member
Thought I would add a couple of my guns.
Great AR-15 for target and hunting. Finally got it to the way I wanted it. Feels great in the hand and shoulder and shoots great.
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This is when you must kill last concrete wall in the world.
What for it....
50 CAL Beowulf. Love this gun!!! And the wife bought this for me as a wedding present.
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Scar Copy shoots 22 cal. Great little gun. Even my 6 year old loves to shoot this.
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One of my pride and enjoys. It is a all matching Hungarian Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 Shoots 8x56 cal. Just love shooting this.
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And just a fun gun for shooting at people. Don't fear it is just a airsoft gun.
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Great AR-15 for target and hunting. Finally got it to the way I wanted it. Feels great in the hand and shoulder and shoots great.
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This is when you must kill last concrete wall in the world.
What for it....
50 CAL Beowulf. Love this gun!!! And the wife bought this for me as a wedding present.
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Scar Copy shoots 22 cal. Great little gun. Even my 6 year old loves to shoot this.
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One of my pride and enjoys. It is a all matching Hungarian Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 Shoots 8x56 cal. Just love shooting this.
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And just a fun gun for shooting at people. Don't fear it is just a airsoft gun.
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Trauma1
Legend
Here's a few of my Mil Surp collection:
This first is my absolute favorite gun to shoot hands down. It's my 1944 Tula Mosin Nagant Sniper Rifle. Everything on this gun is matching including the original PU scope. It is an absolute joy shooting this thing. If any of you have seen the movie "Enemy at the Gates" or know about the battle of Stalingrad during WW2, this is the gun that put the fear in the German 6th army (and their eventual surrender/annihilation) calling it the "battle of the rats." The ammo is so cheap that it makes this hobby affordable on a regular basis. It shoots the 7.62x54R round.
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This next one is something I picked up at a steal price. It's a 1943 British Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 (on the left.) I haven't had time to shoot this yet, and still need to take it apart and check the overall integrity of the barrel and hardware. All the surplus ammo dried up years ago, but this is a great project for reloading. It shoots the British .303 round.
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This is my Yugo Mauser Rifle. It's almost exactly built like the German K98k Mauser Rifle (even built on the original German equipment), but it has a bit of a shorter action to it. Most of these guns were never even used making them great shooters. I picked this up late last year for a very good price on gunbroker. It shoots the 8MM round. The surplus ammo is still around and pretty cheap, so it's a good option for shooting with a budget; not to mention that 8MM round is serious business.
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This next gun is my 1945 Mosin Nagant M44 carbine rifle. This is basically a filed down version of the standard Mosin Nagant rifle with a folding bayonette on it. I have it fully extended here and it's the way the gun was intended to shoot. If the zombie apocalypse does happen, I'll be taking it with me. This thing is loud as fukc and demonstrates a very impressive fireball out of the muzzle when you shoot it. This is always a fan favorite at the range. It also shoots the 7.62x54R round, so it's very budget friendly to shoot.
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This first is my absolute favorite gun to shoot hands down. It's my 1944 Tula Mosin Nagant Sniper Rifle. Everything on this gun is matching including the original PU scope. It is an absolute joy shooting this thing. If any of you have seen the movie "Enemy at the Gates" or know about the battle of Stalingrad during WW2, this is the gun that put the fear in the German 6th army (and their eventual surrender/annihilation) calling it the "battle of the rats." The ammo is so cheap that it makes this hobby affordable on a regular basis. It shoots the 7.62x54R round.
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This next one is something I picked up at a steal price. It's a 1943 British Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 (on the left.) I haven't had time to shoot this yet, and still need to take it apart and check the overall integrity of the barrel and hardware. All the surplus ammo dried up years ago, but this is a great project for reloading. It shoots the British .303 round.
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This is my Yugo Mauser Rifle. It's almost exactly built like the German K98k Mauser Rifle (even built on the original German equipment), but it has a bit of a shorter action to it. Most of these guns were never even used making them great shooters. I picked this up late last year for a very good price on gunbroker. It shoots the 8MM round. The surplus ammo is still around and pretty cheap, so it's a good option for shooting with a budget; not to mention that 8MM round is serious business.
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This next gun is my 1945 Mosin Nagant M44 carbine rifle. This is basically a filed down version of the standard Mosin Nagant rifle with a folding bayonette on it. I have it fully extended here and it's the way the gun was intended to shoot. If the zombie apocalypse does happen, I'll be taking it with me. This thing is loud as fukc and demonstrates a very impressive fireball out of the muzzle when you shoot it. This is always a fan favorite at the range. It also shoots the 7.62x54R round, so it's very budget friendly to shoot.
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Trauma1
Legend
Just for comparison sake, here's the difference between the Russian 7.62x54R on the left vs. the German 7.92x57 (or 8MM) on the right.
Throw the .30-06 that we used and the British .303 in there and they were throwing some serious copper-coated candy down range during WW2:
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Throw the .30-06 that we used and the British .303 in there and they were throwing some serious copper-coated candy down range during WW2:
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WarcraftJJS
Well-known member
Thanks I love the Beowulf. Hella kick from it and leaves some great holes in everything.
Ya my wife is pretty cool about guns. She likes to shoot as much as I do. Tho I prob get to shoot more.
Very nice surplus stuff, like the Mosin Sniper Rifle.
Do you have your C&R 03-FFL? Would be worth getting if you really like Surplus stuff. I got mine a while back and has paid for it self more times then I can think off. Because I can have the surplus stuff sent right to my house and you are considered a FFL Dealer you can get discounts at places like Brownell, Midway, and others.
Ya my wife is pretty cool about guns. She likes to shoot as much as I do. Tho I prob get to shoot more.
Very nice surplus stuff, like the Mosin Sniper Rifle.
Do you have your C&R 03-FFL? Would be worth getting if you really like Surplus stuff. I got mine a while back and has paid for it self more times then I can think off. Because I can have the surplus stuff sent right to my house and you are considered a FFL Dealer you can get discounts at places like Brownell, Midway, and others.
Trauma1
Legend
I wish my wife loved to shoot, but it's been a work in progress. Slowly over the years I think I'm starting to wear away on her.
I have all the paperwork filled out I just need to send it in. You're right, it will definitely pay off in the end. I love my Mil Surp guns as much as all the new stuff.
Plus, there is nothing like having a firearm shipped right to your front door, haha!
WarcraftJJS
Well-known member
Trauma1 said:I wish my wife loved to shoot, but it's been a work in progress. Slowly over the years I think I'm starting to wear away on her.
I have all the paperwork filled out I just need to send it in. You're right, it will definitely pay off in the end. I love my Mil Surp guns as much as all the new stuff.
Plus, there is nothing like having a firearm shipped right to your front door, haha!
It takes a little time to get her to enjoy. My wife took a little time to work in to shooting but it was worth it. Made it more of a couple get away from the kids (aside from the gym). !
T-AD
Well-known member
Been searching around for what sort of sling I want for the shottie. 1 point, 2 point, shell holder, paracord, bla bla bla... Finally made a decision. Paracord. Black and ACU camo. Knowing me, y'all figure there's gonna be some creative hitch to the plan, right? RIGHT??? Yup... Going to make it myself. Just ordered 50' of each in 550 and I'm going to go for it. I've always been artsy fartsy, and crafty (wafty?), and always been good with the textile crafts. Ordered enough to make one sling, my size, and a few bracelets atleast. Might end up selling 'em if I'm good enough. Pics to follow, and if successful, possibly taking orders! LOL
Update: yeah... I can do this... That is just shoelaces. Ha! Cobra weave!! Will try a few other styles once my cordage arrives.
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Update: yeah... I can do this... That is just shoelaces. Ha! Cobra weave!! Will try a few other styles once my cordage arrives.
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WarcraftJJS
Well-known member
T-AD said:
Nice job with the para cord.
mustang0341
Well-known member
couple of my favs
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Bolanrox
Well-known member
T-AD
Well-known member
Thanks, guys! Not too shabby for a first try with a pretty basic weave. I'm going to do a few different ones for different sizes/purposes. I made a little order for some black, ACU, and pink camo (for teh ladeees) and some buckles. Even got a few buckles with built in whistles, too. Plan is to make a few, see if I can sell a few to finance more cordage/closures, then do a bunch and do a craft fair or two this fall. Make some profits, buy more stuff for the guns! :cheers:
Very nice! If you don't mind me asking, what kinda light is that? I'm in the market for one for the Boomstick, but haven't made any decisions yet. What is it, and do you know what the lumen output is?
T-AD
Well-known member
Was actually asking about the pic with the Glock, but I totally meant to ask that about the Mossy, too! Thanks for reading my mind, bro!!! I had thought about looking into it, but when I bought my stock package last week, it comes with a new forend that has 3 2" rails on it. I'm not really sure I'd mount anything to them, though. If I want a light, maybe, but that'd stick pretty far down on the gun profile. Since my mag tube and barrel are the same length, I may just mount the light to the barrel, unless I find something bright and low-pro to put on the grip. The laser will definitely go on a rail. The pump wiggles way too much to keep any accuracy with the laser.
I did see the Surefire version of that sort of insight grip, but it was over $300. Nah... that's almost what I paid for the shottie to begin with! LOL
Trauma1
Legend
Surefire makes a great light, but they are WAY overpriced, imo. You can find many other lights that are of equal quality for half the price easily. Check out the streamlight options, Tim. They make a great weapons light at a good price.
-T1
Trauma1
Legend
A few more pics of projects in progress:
I've added the belt clip, new northwood custom trigger, and crimson trace laser to my PF9. I absolutely love how it came out and now it's officially ready when/if I ever need to call upon it. The trigger was an absolute bitch changing out. Kel Tec uses a barbed pin that holds their trigger into the trigger axis; why, I have no idea. Needless to say, a lot of f-bombs were dropped, lol:
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Here's the Remington 870 tactical after I installed a new optic (Vortex Sparc) and added a Mako group forend coupled with my Streamlight TLR-1s light. I'm very pleased how this came out as well. I have a laser to add on it if I want, but I want to keep this as light as possible:
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Here's just a few random pics of pistols after their cleaning:
Glock 17 Gen3
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Glock 21 Gen4 with TLR-1s weapon light
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And last but certainly not least, my "number 1." This is my Kimber Pro Covert 2. I keep this baby in the nightstand at all times. She has crimson trace laser grips and meprolight night sights installed. Kimber guns are WAY overpriced, but they certainly are of very high quality. This gun is about as accurate as it gets with a handgun. The 1911 platform is an amazing machine:
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-T1
I've added the belt clip, new northwood custom trigger, and crimson trace laser to my PF9. I absolutely love how it came out and now it's officially ready when/if I ever need to call upon it. The trigger was an absolute bitch changing out. Kel Tec uses a barbed pin that holds their trigger into the trigger axis; why, I have no idea. Needless to say, a lot of f-bombs were dropped, lol:
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Here's the Remington 870 tactical after I installed a new optic (Vortex Sparc) and added a Mako group forend coupled with my Streamlight TLR-1s light. I'm very pleased how this came out as well. I have a laser to add on it if I want, but I want to keep this as light as possible:
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Here's just a few random pics of pistols after their cleaning:
Glock 17 Gen3
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Glock 21 Gen4 with TLR-1s weapon light
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And last but certainly not least, my "number 1." This is my Kimber Pro Covert 2. I keep this baby in the nightstand at all times. She has crimson trace laser grips and meprolight night sights installed. Kimber guns are WAY overpriced, but they certainly are of very high quality. This gun is about as accurate as it gets with a handgun. The 1911 platform is an amazing machine:
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-T1
mustang0341
Well-known member
the light is a Xyphos NT by BlackHawk
EDIT: not sure what the Lumens are without looking but it is a two stage light with a solid beam and strobe.
EDIT: not sure what the Lumens are without looking but it is a two stage light with a solid beam and strobe.
T-AD
Well-known member
Very nice arms, John! Diggin' what you did with the 870. It gives me a few ideas, but I've already thrown them out in lieu of what I was going to do with mine anyway. HA!!! Weight isn't much of an issue for me, so I'm not quite as concerned as you are. 
Been doing some thinking on stuffs. After I finish getting the shottie how I want it, I think the next project is going to be a rifle. I have 2 now - Remington .270 and old-school classic Winchester 30-30 lever (top eject, yeah!). I want a big bore, something to knock 'em down and reach out there. Looked into a few fun names yesterday, first being Dragunov. Uh, well, um... yeah, that's out of the question. Getting a nice one, it looks like the price is about what I'd pay for a used car. So I went back in time and looked at.... Mosin Nagant. Yup, I remembered them from this thread! And yeah, definitely budget friendly!!! Only thing is, I'd want to deck it out more updated and "tacti-cool". Hmmm.... I wonder what I can find...
Been doing some thinking on stuffs. After I finish getting the shottie how I want it, I think the next project is going to be a rifle. I have 2 now - Remington .270 and old-school classic Winchester 30-30 lever (top eject, yeah!). I want a big bore, something to knock 'em down and reach out there. Looked into a few fun names yesterday, first being Dragunov. Uh, well, um... yeah, that's out of the question. Getting a nice one, it looks like the price is about what I'd pay for a used car. So I went back in time and looked at.... Mosin Nagant. Yup, I remembered them from this thread! And yeah, definitely budget friendly!!! Only thing is, I'd want to deck it out more updated and "tacti-cool". Hmmm.... I wonder what I can find...
T-AD
Well-known member
tacticooling a vintage WII rifle? should neg on principlebad enough seeing it done to a repro thompson
that would be like putting rails on a yellowboy or Single Action Army
Trust me, man. I have a deep appreciation for history! (Bach Degree Sec Ed/History) I just REALLY like to customize things! I'd rather be at a range somewhere and have someone say "that's neat, what is it?" than "oh, nice Nagant".
T-AD
Well-known member
fair enough. i love the newest and forward looking stuff, but but i love the old stuff as is (or minor tweaks for reliability or functionality) its a weird combo of ideas i know
Nope, not at all! It's all about personal preference. Some like old, some like new. Some like to have a ton of guns, so prefer to have just the ones to cover the basics. That's kinda what I would like to do. Of course, now I'm down a revolver, but I'm ok with that. I'm just the type to tinker with things. I'm too creative to leave well enough alone!
Trauma1
Legend
I am beginning to think that except for pistols is it possible to get like 1 shotgun / rifle / etc for an all in one? seems liek you have to have at least 2 of each to cover all your bases
Check out the Taurus "Judge" or the Smith and Wesson "Governor." They will fire .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, and .410 (2.5-3') shotgun shells. It's nice to have options.
They make a shotgun attachment for the M4 platform, but it really just adds to being cumbersome over effective.
Trauma1
Legend
Oops, my bad. It's the Governor that will fire the .45 ACP as well. That just gives it a leg up then!
AlexErdellan
Member
Got a Cold Steel Ti-Lite 6 inch for 40 on ebay a while back, great knife.
Trauma1
Legend
Great knife. Cold Steel makes some very good products. I have a few of their products.
My EDC (every day carry) knife right now is a SOG Trident. I absolutely love this thing. It's light, very sharp, and holds an excellent edge:
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Check out this new great sword that Cold Steel makes:
Trauma1
Legend
A good little read:
Handgun Ammo Stopping Power
All of us have been exposed to the varying theories regarding which type of handgun bullet is best for defensive purposes. Some proponents (Dr. Julian Hatcher) believed that "bigger is better" while the National Institute of Justice performed a "computer man" study a number of years ago which suggested that light and fast bullets achieved the most lethal results.
As more and more data becomes available, theories change. Evan Marshall wrote definitive studies in 1992, 1996 and 2000 after examining the results of thousands of actual shootings. His conclusions came as a result of actual shootings and not from firing bullets into wet newspaper, gelatin or some other artificial medium.edium.
His data is based on "one shot stops". This is defined as: 1. a single hit to anywhere on the body not counting the head, neck or extremity shot: 2. when a subject stops shooting or striking blows if that was what he was doing and 3. runs no more than 10 feet before collapsing. In other words, Marshall’s studies examine what happens in the first few seconds after a shooting.
In the past decade, major advances have been made in bullet design which adds to the lethality of the projectile. Every major US bullet manufacturer has their own proprietary projective which they claim is best for the job at hand. New calibers such as the 357 SIG have appeared on the scene while more data has been accumulated on relatively new bullets such as the 40 Smith & Wesson. Marshall’s newest study takes these events into consideration.
32 ACP - Most of the smaller caliber firearms such as this caliber and the .380 ACP are carried as "back-up" guns by law enforcement thus the increase in data from actual police shootings. The CorBon 62 gr. JHP round was involved in 17 shootings with 11 one shot stops which achieved a 65% rating followed closely by the Winchester 60 grain Silvertip which was fired 162 times and caused 104 stops for a 64% rating. The Federal 65 grain Hydra-Shok and the CCI 60 grain Gold Dot achieved one shot stops 63% and 60% of the time.
380 ACP - The top rounds in this category were the Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok and the CorBon 90 grain JHP+P which both rated a 70% one shot stop rating. While Federal 90 grain FMJ ammo was used in a whopping 245 shootings, it only achieved 55% one shot stops.
38 Special - With the introduction of semi-auto pistols, this caliber was relegated to secondary status. This data is from 2 and 3 inch revolvers which limit muzzle velocity & therefore results are less than other comparable calibers. Both the Winchester and Federal 158 grain LHP+P offerings were involved in 158 shootings with the Winchester round making 121 single shot stops for a 68% rating and the Federal loading making 120 one shot stops for a 67% rating. Most all of the 16 loadings examined fell in the 60 percent range with the Federal 125 grain Nyclad LHP+P round earning a 61% rating. It’s clear than the long-used 158 grain lead hollowpoint pushed to +P pressures is the best round for this caliber.
357 Magnum - Once the king of law enforcement handguns, this caliber has also been replaced by large capacity auto-pistols. The data collected for this caliber came from 2 and 3 inch revolvers, not the longer barreled type. The top round was the Remington 124 grain JHP followed by the same loading by Federal. Both loads achieved a 91% one hit stop rating. Most other loads ranked in the 80% area with the Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok achieving a 78% rating.
357 SIG - This is the most current law enforcement cartridge and therefore, shooting data is limited. The top rated cartridges were the Remington and Federal 125 grain JHPs. Both were rated at 91% one shot stops. Of the 9 loads evaluated, the poorest was the Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok which was involved in 41 shootings with 32 one shot stops for a 78% rating.
9mm - This was the first semiauto pistol to be used extensively by police agencies and replaced the 38 Special and 357 Magnum round. Early loadings of the 147 grain round caused major stopping problems however current 147 grain designs are vastly superior. Clearly the best 9mm loads are those driven to +P+ pressures. Of the 20 loadings evaluated, the top load was the Federal 115 grain JHP +P+ involved in 209 shootings with 190 one shot stops for a 91% rating. The Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ and 127 grain Ranger SXT +P+ both had 90% one shot stops. All five loads driven to +P+ pressures ranked in the top 5 followed by all bullets loaded to +P pressures. Rounds manufactured to standard pressure ratings comprised the bottom 12 loadings in the study.
40 S&W - This caliber has become extremely popular with law enforcement agencies due to the perceived deficiencies of the 9mm round. All manufacturers have at least 2 loadings of this caliber and it has served very well. The Remington 165 grain Golden Saber was used in 311 shootings and made 292 one shot stops for a 94% rating followed closely by the CCI 165 and 155 grain loadings and the Federal 155 grain Hydra-Shok bullet. These 3 loads made 93% one shot stops. Other manufacturers loads in the 90% range were the Federal 155 grain JHP and the CorBon 135 and 150 grain JHP bullets. Thirteen other loadings were evaluated with the poorest being the Winchester 180 grain FMJ that was involved in 134 encounters and made 95 (71%) one shot stops.
45 ACP - This caliber has been around for almost 100 years and is still the top rated round. More police agencies are using this round due to its proven stopping ability. The large diameter, heavy bullet is the basis for the "momentum" theory of stopping power however actual results in shootings show a mix of "light and fast" and "slow and heavy" rounds. The Remington 185 grain Golden Saber was involved in 148 shootings and caused 142 one shot stops for a 96% rating followed closely by the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok which caused 200 one shot stops in 211 shootings for a 95% rating. Eight of the 16 loadings examined rated above 90% one shot stops while 5 others rated in the 80s. The poorest stoppers were the Remington, Federal and Winchester 230 grain FMJ rounds which achieved 62% one shot stops.
It’s difficult to say that one type of bullet is best for all calibers and, in fact, these study results show that the best results come from a mix of heavy to light bullets which defy most theories. It is clear however that some loadings are much better than others and the decision is ours with respect to which we choose.
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Handgun Ammo Stopping Power
All of us have been exposed to the varying theories regarding which type of handgun bullet is best for defensive purposes. Some proponents (Dr. Julian Hatcher) believed that "bigger is better" while the National Institute of Justice performed a "computer man" study a number of years ago which suggested that light and fast bullets achieved the most lethal results.
As more and more data becomes available, theories change. Evan Marshall wrote definitive studies in 1992, 1996 and 2000 after examining the results of thousands of actual shootings. His conclusions came as a result of actual shootings and not from firing bullets into wet newspaper, gelatin or some other artificial medium.edium.
His data is based on "one shot stops". This is defined as: 1. a single hit to anywhere on the body not counting the head, neck or extremity shot: 2. when a subject stops shooting or striking blows if that was what he was doing and 3. runs no more than 10 feet before collapsing. In other words, Marshall’s studies examine what happens in the first few seconds after a shooting.
In the past decade, major advances have been made in bullet design which adds to the lethality of the projectile. Every major US bullet manufacturer has their own proprietary projective which they claim is best for the job at hand. New calibers such as the 357 SIG have appeared on the scene while more data has been accumulated on relatively new bullets such as the 40 Smith & Wesson. Marshall’s newest study takes these events into consideration.
32 ACP - Most of the smaller caliber firearms such as this caliber and the .380 ACP are carried as "back-up" guns by law enforcement thus the increase in data from actual police shootings. The CorBon 62 gr. JHP round was involved in 17 shootings with 11 one shot stops which achieved a 65% rating followed closely by the Winchester 60 grain Silvertip which was fired 162 times and caused 104 stops for a 64% rating. The Federal 65 grain Hydra-Shok and the CCI 60 grain Gold Dot achieved one shot stops 63% and 60% of the time.
380 ACP - The top rounds in this category were the Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok and the CorBon 90 grain JHP+P which both rated a 70% one shot stop rating. While Federal 90 grain FMJ ammo was used in a whopping 245 shootings, it only achieved 55% one shot stops.
38 Special - With the introduction of semi-auto pistols, this caliber was relegated to secondary status. This data is from 2 and 3 inch revolvers which limit muzzle velocity & therefore results are less than other comparable calibers. Both the Winchester and Federal 158 grain LHP+P offerings were involved in 158 shootings with the Winchester round making 121 single shot stops for a 68% rating and the Federal loading making 120 one shot stops for a 67% rating. Most all of the 16 loadings examined fell in the 60 percent range with the Federal 125 grain Nyclad LHP+P round earning a 61% rating. It’s clear than the long-used 158 grain lead hollowpoint pushed to +P pressures is the best round for this caliber.
357 Magnum - Once the king of law enforcement handguns, this caliber has also been replaced by large capacity auto-pistols. The data collected for this caliber came from 2 and 3 inch revolvers, not the longer barreled type. The top round was the Remington 124 grain JHP followed by the same loading by Federal. Both loads achieved a 91% one hit stop rating. Most other loads ranked in the 80% area with the Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok achieving a 78% rating.
357 SIG - This is the most current law enforcement cartridge and therefore, shooting data is limited. The top rated cartridges were the Remington and Federal 125 grain JHPs. Both were rated at 91% one shot stops. Of the 9 loads evaluated, the poorest was the Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok which was involved in 41 shootings with 32 one shot stops for a 78% rating.
9mm - This was the first semiauto pistol to be used extensively by police agencies and replaced the 38 Special and 357 Magnum round. Early loadings of the 147 grain round caused major stopping problems however current 147 grain designs are vastly superior. Clearly the best 9mm loads are those driven to +P+ pressures. Of the 20 loadings evaluated, the top load was the Federal 115 grain JHP +P+ involved in 209 shootings with 190 one shot stops for a 91% rating. The Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ and 127 grain Ranger SXT +P+ both had 90% one shot stops. All five loads driven to +P+ pressures ranked in the top 5 followed by all bullets loaded to +P pressures. Rounds manufactured to standard pressure ratings comprised the bottom 12 loadings in the study.
40 S&W - This caliber has become extremely popular with law enforcement agencies due to the perceived deficiencies of the 9mm round. All manufacturers have at least 2 loadings of this caliber and it has served very well. The Remington 165 grain Golden Saber was used in 311 shootings and made 292 one shot stops for a 94% rating followed closely by the CCI 165 and 155 grain loadings and the Federal 155 grain Hydra-Shok bullet. These 3 loads made 93% one shot stops. Other manufacturers loads in the 90% range were the Federal 155 grain JHP and the CorBon 135 and 150 grain JHP bullets. Thirteen other loadings were evaluated with the poorest being the Winchester 180 grain FMJ that was involved in 134 encounters and made 95 (71%) one shot stops.
45 ACP - This caliber has been around for almost 100 years and is still the top rated round. More police agencies are using this round due to its proven stopping ability. The large diameter, heavy bullet is the basis for the "momentum" theory of stopping power however actual results in shootings show a mix of "light and fast" and "slow and heavy" rounds. The Remington 185 grain Golden Saber was involved in 148 shootings and caused 142 one shot stops for a 96% rating followed closely by the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok which caused 200 one shot stops in 211 shootings for a 95% rating. Eight of the 16 loadings examined rated above 90% one shot stops while 5 others rated in the 80s. The poorest stoppers were the Remington, Federal and Winchester 230 grain FMJ rounds which achieved 62% one shot stops.
It’s difficult to say that one type of bullet is best for all calibers and, in fact, these study results show that the best results come from a mix of heavy to light bullets which defy most theories. It is clear however that some loadings are much better than others and the decision is ours with respect to which we choose.
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Trauma1
Legend
Very nice arms, John! Diggin' what you did with the 870. It gives me a few ideas, but I've already thrown them out in lieu of what I was going to do with mine anyway. HA!!! Weight isn't much of an issue for me, so I'm not quite as concerned as you are.
Been doing some thinking on stuffs. After I finish getting the shottie how I want it, I think the next project is going to be a rifle. I have 2 now - Remington .270 and old-school classic Winchester 30-30 lever (top eject, yeah!). I want a big bore, something to knock 'em down and reach out there. Looked into a few fun names yesterday, first being Dragunov. Uh, well, um... yeah, that's out of the question. Getting a nice one, it looks like the price is about what I'd pay for a used car. So I went back in time and looked at.... Mosin Nagant. Yup, I remembered them from this thread! And yeah, definitely budget friendly!!! Only thing is, I'd want to deck it out more updated and "tacti-cool". Hmmm.... I wonder what I can find...
The weight adds up, bro. When it's 3am and you're trying to clear your house you don't want to be trying to wield a cinder block around the corner and accurately point/shoot. All the so called "home defense" experts believe all you need is a light attached and a simple bead for aiming; they're probably right. I'm actually taking the optic off my 870 and going to run the ghost ring sight with some glow-on illumination added to it and the front sight post.
The Winchester lever-action 30-30 is a great gun. That 30-30 round has a nice flat trajectory and is a great hunting option. My buddy has one and I love shooting it. There is a Marlin lever-action 30-30 I've been looking at. I just may have to buy it, haha.
Let me know if you have any questions about the Mosin Nagant. There is no better option for $100-150 dollars. They are reliable, reasonably accurate, cheap to shoot, and easy to break-down/clean. I just submitted my paperwork to the BATF today for my FFL 03 Curio and Relics firearms license. It's nice to be able to cut-out the middle man and have them sent right to my house. I really enjoy collecting them and each one is unique in its own way. I have a few project Mosin guns for the near future. I want to refinish/stain the stocks and re-blue to metal parts on a few of them; one I'll make a custom effort. I have a match grade trigger and red dot scope to add to it once I do. I've debated even bedding the stock and free-floating the barrel to improve accuracy. I guess I'll see how it goes, but it should be fun!
-T1
Trauma1
Legend
tacticooling a vintage WII rifle? should neg on principle
that would be like putting rails on a yellowboy or Single Action Army
I totally agree in some ways here. I think if it's a unique mil surp gun then it should never be altered from its original condition. I have a few that are completely battlefield pick-ups with no re-arsenal repairs; My Mosin Nagant M44 in particular. It's all beat up, barrel lands/grooves worn, and the bluing is pretty much gone. I love it that way. Amazingly enough, it's one of my more accurate Mosin's.
There are SO many standard infantry Mosin Nagant rifles being imported that I don't see anything wrong with modifying one of them as a project gun; given it has no unique features or markings on it. There were 17.4 million of them produced by the end of WW2. That's why they're still so cheap to buy right now, but that will change as they start to dry up. I know this debate will forever be battled with both sides having legitimate arguments set forth.
Ultimately though, if you paid for it, then you should be able to do what you want to it...but...I'm not sure that sits well with me either. A piece of gun/war history is important to me, but to others it isn't.
I would definitely be against ever modifying a piece of American war history, though; like say the M1 Garand. That would be a sin!
-T1