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The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

So basicly BCAA's before weight training and every 2 hours until you break fast. On non weight training days no BCAA 's at all? Or 10 grams upon rising then nothing until your eating window?

Thanks
 
roblasane said:
So basicly BCAA's before weight training and every 2 hours until you break fast. On non weight training days no BCAA 's at all? Or 10 grams upon rising then nothing until your eating window?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Kleen pointed out that Martin only recommends them on workout days - NO BCAAS on rest/cardio days -
 
Got hopefully one last question for you guys. So I have my macros split between training and rest day for my cut

Training
2500 calories
225g protein
20-40g fat
330g carbs

Rest day
1700 calories
225g protein
30-60g fat
65g carbs

I can do well with the 65g carbs but how to you increase carbs to 300g. What do you guys eat for carbs? I'm going to try to do 2 meals, once post workout after fasted training around 1-2pm and then dinner around 6. Any input on carbs would bre greatly appreciated, I'm struggling with what carbs I can eat? I know brown rice is good but is whole wheat pasta, potatoes ok? What do you guys use for carbs?
 
Sweet potatoes, oats, ezekiel bread, fruit, quinoa, brown rice, kashi waffles. Those are my main sources of carbs.
 
One of the total joys of IF is that the sources are far less critical. The early studies were on Ramadan based fasting. You know what they have for carb sources? sugary pastries with fruit jellies and honey.

don't forget whole fruits, they have a number of benefits.
 
jswain34 said:
Sweet potatoes, oats, ezekiel bread, fruit, quinoa, brown rice, kashi waffles. Those are my main sources of carbs.
Click to expand...

This!

I also enjoy homemade sprouted wheat bread.

Lately I added GlycoMyx to my post workout shake. I have it along side my meal. Made from oats and purple yams.
 
daniel11 said:
This!

I also enjoy homemade sprouted wheat bread.

Lately I added GlycoMyx to my post workout shake. I have it along side my meal. Made from oats and purple yams.
Click to expand...

I'm currently logging Glycomyx now . It's very good stuff . Loaded with fiber and anti oxidants .
 
EasyEJL said:
One of the total joys of IF is that the sources are far less critical. The early studies were on Ramadan based fasting. You know what they have for carb sources? sugary pastries with fruit jellies and honey.

don't forget whole fruits, they have a number of benefits.
Click to expand...

That's good to know. I love this thread!
 
jumpshot903 said:
Whats everyones personal preference just started this after been wanting to for quite some time, do you go with fasted training or one pre workout meal i've seen a lot of people go the fasted route but generally lately i've been lifting towards 3-4pm which would fit perfectly for 1 pre workout meal. However if the benefits seem better with fasted training I could easily hit the gym at 10-11, haven't really incorporated fasting into my diets before so this is a learning experience.
Click to expand...


I actually like fasted workouts
 
allstr921 said:
I actually like fasted workouts
Click to expand...

Me too - my perception of the entire day is totally different when I wake up & bust my a$$ first thing on an empty stomach - everything else is simple after that -
 
ive been running my fats higher for both training and non training days.

no one worried about the low fat and hormones? even the higher fat days seem a bit low in fat for me.

the training day carbs i wish i could go that high! ive been messing with ~100g on non weights and ~200 when lifting heavy. i say heavy lifting cause ive been adding in conditioning days after some cardio and count these as a "non training" day.
 
Do whatever you feel is best for you and your body. I was low carbing on a daily basis for a while before starting leangains. I feel that my strength has increased much faster when taking in roughly 300 g carbs squat/deadlift days and about 230-250 on bench days. Off days I really try to keep carbs between 50-100 on days after squat/deads. And day after bench and sundays I try and keep them between 30-50. at first after low carbing for a few months I really had a tough time getting down that many carbs on workout days. But now I don't really have a problem with it. Just takes a little time to gradually work your way up I suppose.
 
On my rest/burn days I don't eat any carbs, I only get trace carbs from nuts and cheese. On my lifting days, I've been getting 350g of carbs on the low end to close to 500g on the high end. I still hit 1g/lb of protein on lift days, and usually get around 1.5g/lb and fill the rest in with carbs. I have been avoiding fat with my fast breaking meal (on lifting days) at all costs but I don't worry too much about the macros with my last meal for the day. So far, it's been working very well for me.

Most of my carbs are what I would consider clean. I'm a big fan of that Naked Juice and the juice smoothie things from Bolthouse farms. The small bottle of Blue Goodness from Bolthouse Farms will get you 82g of carbs by itself and has tons of vitamins and minerals and no added sugar or high fructose corn syrup.

I also eat a lot of sweet potatoes because they're easy to eat and don't fill me up much, as well as rice (mostly white) and pasta. I also buy big bags of Dole wild blueberries and eat those thawed with whipped cream - damn good.

While I do try to get most of my carbs from so called "good" sources, I've found that for me, it doesn't hurt to add in some good stuff like ice cream, cake, pie, cookies, etc. It hasn't hurt from a body composition stand-point, nor has it caused health issues - at least not from the readings of my blood work.

I think eating healthy foods is obviously a very good thing, but IF in particular seems to be a style of eating where one can have a lot more flexibility and freedom with their food choices and indulge a bit without paying a penalty.
 
I will try bumping up carbs on training days and really reducing them on days I am not training heavy. I love trying new things.

250g on lift days, under 100 on off days for now.
 
tjwoody said:
I will try bumping up carbs on training days and really reducing them on days I am not training heavy. I love trying new things.

250g on lift days, under 100 on off days for now.
Click to expand...

Any water retention from more carbs?
 
Can someone tell me if you are in IF mode and you take a product like Anabolic Pump or Psline which absorbs carbs and shuttles them to your muscles, does this affect keto or your break your fast by eating 30-40g which the pills supposedly helps you utilize immediately. Understand I'm just asking.
 
HokiePride said:
Can someone tell me if you are in IF mode and you take a product like Anabolic Pump or Psline which absorbs carbs and shuttles them to your muscles, does this affect keto or your break your fast by eating 30-40g which the pills supposedly helps you utilize immediately. Understand I'm just asking.
Click to expand...

All good. Look at recompadrol too.
The HCA has great effects on keto avoiding fat to be stored. Helps waste calories
 
runner_79 said:
All good. Look at recompadrol too.
The HCA has great effects on keto avoiding fat to be stored. Helps waste calories
Click to expand...

I asking if it breaks your keto or IF by using the products during the IF window?
 
Hi guys,

For my training day I'm thinking about have a whole wheat pasta with chicken dish to break my fast......what kind of sauce can I use that wont through my fat content over my limit cuz I was thinking garlic and olive oil but that would be too many fat grams along with the fat grams from the chicken......tomotoe sauce? any suggustions greatly appreciated?
 
allstr921 said:
Hi guys,

For my training day I'm thinking about have a whole wheat pasta with chicken dish to break my fast......what kind of sauce can I use that wont through my fat content over my limit cuz I was thinking garlic and olive oil but that would be too many fat grams along with the fat grams from the chicken......tomotoe sauce? any suggustions greatly appreciated?
Click to expand...

Wholegrain mustard
 
Also I'm on Day 3 now and the last 2 nights I have had such a hard time falling asleep....I'm guessing its because my body is not used to eating clean with specific calorie counts and after a few more nights I should be good..Anyone else experience this?
 
Rodja said:
How does it not break the fast if he's taking 30-40g of carbs?
Click to expand...

That is a definite fast breaker 30-40g of carbs is equal to 120-160calories. I believe Martin states that an intake of 30-40 calories is acceptable but not 30-40g carbs.
 
allstr921 said:
Any input on carbs would bre greatly appreciated, I'm struggling with what carbs I can eat? I know brown rice is good but is whole wheat pasta, potatoes ok? What do you guys use for carbs?
Click to expand...

Here is the good news as Easy mentions below you can basically get your carbs anywhere you want them. I would say get them in a good mix. You want some insulin releasing carbs in there two. Does not have to be whole wheat this or that, all that will really do is make it harder to get your calories and carbs in. When I first started I tried to do it clean with whole wheat everything and was miserable. I started adding in bagels an easy 60 grams of carbs and life got easier, then more fruits, and white rice, oh I forgot how much more I like white rice than whole grain.

Don't try to eat everything clean enjoy the fact that if you stay with in your calories and macro goals the source is not as important. The only thing I would say regarding that is when it comes to protein it needed to be a complete protein whether that be by combining beans and rice or having some whey... Frank will tell you the same thing too enjoy your calories have whatever carbs you want to within the macros same for fats and proteins. If you want a a double meat cheese burger go for it just adjust your intake for the rest of the window. I think I tend to do about 65% clean and 35% of whatever I want within my macros.

EasyEJL said:
One of the total joys of IF is that the sources are far less critical. The early studies were on Ramadan based fasting. You know what they have for carb sources? sugary pastries with fruit jellies and honey.

don't forget whole fruits, they have a number of benefits.
Click to expand...
Exactly, fruits, sherbet, sorbet, rice pudding, animal crackers, pancakes syrup, waffles french toast, pretzels, marshmallow cream on a spoon if you want.

A great post workout is a couple white bread and preserves/jam sandwiches. White bread is what they use as the model for the glycemic index, the 100 in it is based off of white bread and how fast it is turned into blood sugar after consumed.

tjwoody said:
I will try bumping up carbs on training days and really reducing them on days I am not training heavy. I love trying new things.

250g on lift days, under 100 on off days for now.
Click to expand...
This is basically my model 50-100 on burn days and 200-250 for build days. It is a great number you still fill up nicely and lean up well at the same time.

HokiePride said:
Can someone tell me if you are in IF mode and you take a product like Anabolic Pump or Psline which absorbs carbs and shuttles them to your muscles, does this affect keto or your break your fast by eating 30-40g which the pills supposedly helps you utilize immediately. Understand I'm just asking.
Click to expand...

Yes it most certainly does. Consuming 30-40 grams in a day can take you out of ketosis much less at one time. You would want to take your Anabolic Pump on an empty stomach 10-15 minutes before one of your aminos. It does not require carbs for the glut-4 reaction to take place due to the Berberine in it which increrases Glut 4 in the same manner that exercise does, completely separate from insulin. It also increases cAMP, and retards the Glut4 reaction in the fat cells. It would be more beneficial to you during your fast to increase the amount of fat you burn for energy.
You need carbs for the P-Slin or Slin-Sane, they are Banaba and Gymne Sylvestre both of them work by increasing insulin sensitivity substantially however they require the carbs to produce the insulin. So you would want to take one or two of these with your fast breaker or whatever your high carb meals are. You need to get in at least 60 grams with it to get much out of it and really 80-120 is better if you want your muscles to swell.

HokiePride said:
I asking if it breaks your keto or IF by using the products during the IF window?
Click to expand...
Yes, 30-40 grams of carbs would break the fast for certain. I would do more of IF regularly before trying to tweak too much. You want to get a good grasp of how it works for you as designed then once you have a good background begin testing things. YOu won't know if you are improving the process or not if you change it too much before you have the baseline effects down to a good level of familiarity.

allstr921 said:
Hi guys,

For my training day I'm thinking about have a whole wheat pasta with chicken dish to break my fast......what kind of sauce can I use that wont through my fat content over my limit cuz I was thinking garlic and olive oil but that would be too many fat grams along with the fat grams from the chicken......tomotoe sauce? any suggustions greatly appreciated?
Click to expand...

Spaghetti, Tomato, pesto, hot sauce, scirracha sauce, chili sauce, gravy, spaghetti, low fat dressing of any sort, A1, Salsa, you name the condiment and if it is low fat go for it. Not sure what your macros are but if chicken breast has your fat almost chewed up you may want to look at increasing fats a bit if you are natural. You need a decent amount of fat and cholesterol to support a healthy HPTA and increase natural testosterone levels.

Rodja said:
How does it not break the fast if he's taking 30-40g of carbs?
Click to expand...
It does. I can only assume he was thinking it would not be a major problem in the greater scheme of things. During a bulk I can see breaking the fast like this directly post workout with say 15-20 grams of aminos, then fasting until the normal time. I would only recommend that for someone who has already familiarized themselves with IF and can tell if what they are doing is working better for them or not. People modding stuff just to not be doing run of the mill end up not knowing how the original worked. They may mess it up for themselves by modding it and they would not even know because they have no reference point. For those who know what to expect they will be able to tell if there is merit to the modification or not.
 
Mr Kleen and Easy

Thank you very much...Day 3 going well.....burn day went cardio and a shoulder routine (5 shoulder surgeries so gotta keep them strong) with BCAA's this morning....I'm first meal in 15 mins will be

9 oz chicken breast grilled
1 can sliced carrots with 2 tablespoons butter
1 tablespoon of peanut butter

then

2 cups greek yogurt with 2 oz blueberries with a scoop of protein mixed in

then

3 scoops of protein to hit my macros for the day

1592 calories 57g fat 55g carbs 206g protein
 
Okay guys I know you all did not follow the logs but we had a little transformation contest going on and it over now except for the voting. Out of the 4 competitors in this post 3 of them follow Lean Gains or another form of Intermittent Fasting too. Please go to this post and look at the before and after pics and post who you think made the best transformation and who you think has the best final physique. Like so...

Physique = Kleen
Transformation = Kleen

Obviously doesn't have to be my name in the slots. However we would like as many people to weigh in on it as possible. Come put your vote in and let us know who you think did the best during this 8 weeks.

Invalid Link Removed
 
allstr921 said:
Mr Kleen and Easy

Thank you very much...Day 3 going well.....burn day went cardio and a shoulder routine (5 shoulder surgeries so gotta keep them strong) with BCAA's this morning....I'm first meal in 15 mins will be

9 oz chicken breast grilled
1 can sliced carrots with 2 tablespoons butter
1 tablespoon of peanut butter

then

2 cups greek yogurt with 2 oz blueberries with a scoop of protein mixed in

then

3 scoops of protein to hit my macros for the day

1592 calories 57g fat 55g carbs 206g protein
Click to expand...

shooting for that low in total calories?
 
Well I'm using BMR of 2341 as my base for the +10% / -30% but I am in a cut....I am currently 262lbs 23.6% with a 42 in waist. I decided not to add exercise calories into the figures. Is that a big mistake? So training day I look for 2,550 calories and rest day look for 1,638 calories. I have good size so I am looking to maintain the size and really shed the bodyfat which is hiding everything and I want to get my waist size to the middle 30's. What do you guys think? Stay with BMR range or add working out which would be 45-60 mins weight lifting 3 days a week and trying to do cardio either running or biking for 30 mins at least 5 days a week.
 
How much you got to lose? If a lot then I would start out with a number like 2700-2800 since you aren't using your exercise you just adjust it. That way later when you need to you can lower your cals. No need to be at the lowest from the beginning of the diet. You need to have room for adjustments. If you were doing 20/20 at your current listed maintenance set up you would still be doing cutting calories when it is averaged out.
 
MrKleen73 said:
How much you got to lose? If a lot then I would start out with a number like 2700-2800 since you aren't using your exercise you just adjust it. That way later when you need to you can lower your cals. No need to be at the lowest from the beginning of the diet. You need to have room for adjustments. If you were doing 20/20 at your current listed maintenance set up you would still be doing cutting calories when it is averaged out.
Click to expand...


Mr Kleen,

My goal is 215, 10% bodyfat and 35 in waist, using +10% on build days and -35% on burn days....today being a burn day. So I have a steep hill to climb so I am trying to set myself set up properly....I'm not expecting to get there in 2 weeks but I hope to make big progress by December....but I look at this as a lifestyle change but alil more difficult as I am trying to get rid of all the stupid bodyfat I have

I appreciate all your help
 
Rodja said:
How does it not break the fast if he's taking 30-40g of carbs?
Click to expand...

If he is taking a sup without calories unless I have misread
 
What is the opinion here on taking something intraworkout. Does that trigger the feeding window or would first post workout meal still be considered the first "meal." I'm not talking about BCAA. I'm talking Whey+Dextrose intraworkout.
 
DJBeanPole said:
What is the opinion here on taking something intraworkout. Does that trigger the feeding window or would first post workout meal still be considered the first "meal." I'm not talking about BCAA. I'm talking Whey+Dextrose intraworkout.
Click to expand...

That would indeed break the fast
 
MrKleen73 said:
Here is the good news as Easy mentions below you can basically get your carbs anywhere you want them. I would say get them in a good mix. You want some insulin releasing carbs in there two. Does not have to be whole wheat this or that, all that will really do is make it harder to get your calories and carbs in. When I first started I tried to do it clean with whole wheat everything and was miserable. I started adding in bagels an easy 60 grams of carbs and life got easier, then more fruits, and white rice, oh I forgot how much more I like white rice than whole grain.

Don't try to eat everything clean enjoy the fact that if you stay with in your calories and macro goals the source is not as important. The only thing I would say regarding that is when it comes to protein it needed to be a complete protein whether that be by combining beans and rice or having some whey... Frank will tell you the same thing too enjoy your calories have whatever carbs you want to within the macros same for fats and proteins. If you want a a double meat cheese burger go for it just adjust your intake for the rest of the window. I think I tend to do about 65% clean and 35% of whatever I want within my macros.

Exactly, fruits, sherbet, sorbet, rice pudding, animal crackers, pancakes syrup, waffles french toast, pretzels, marshmallow cream on a spoon if you want.

A great post workout is a couple white bread and preserves/jam sandwiches. White bread is what they use as the model for the glycemic index, the 100 in it is based off of white bread and how fast it is turned into blood sugar after consumed.

This is basically my model 50-100 on burn days and 200-250 for build days. It is a great number you still fill up nicely and lean up well at the same time.



Yes it most certainly does. Consuming 30-40 grams in a day can take you out of ketosis much less at one time. You would want to take your Anabolic Pump on an empty stomach 10-15 minutes before one of your aminos. It does not require carbs for the glut-4 reaction to take place due to the Berberine in it which increrases Glut 4 in the same manner that exercise does, completely separate from insulin. It also increases cAMP, and retards the Glut4 reaction in the fat cells. It would be more beneficial to you during your fast to increase the amount of fat you burn for energy.
You need carbs for the P-Slin or Slin-Sane, they are Banaba and Gymne Sylvestre both of them work by increasing insulin sensitivity substantially however they require the carbs to produce the insulin. So you would want to take one or two of these with your fast breaker or whatever your high carb meals are. You need to get in at least 60 grams with it to get much out of it and really 80-120 is better if you want your muscles to swell.


Yes, 30-40 grams of carbs would break the fast for certain. I would do more of IF regularly before trying to tweak too much. You want to get a good grasp of how it works for you as designed then once you have a good background begin testing things. YOu won't know if you are improving the process or not if you change it too much before you have the baseline effects down to a good level of familiarity.



Spaghetti, Tomato, pesto, hot sauce, scirracha sauce, chili sauce, gravy, spaghetti, low fat dressing of any sort, A1, Salsa, you name the condiment and if it is low fat go for it. Not sure what your macros are but if chicken breast has your fat almost chewed up you may want to look at increasing fats a bit if you are natural. You need a decent amount of fat and cholesterol to support a healthy HPTA and increase natural testosterone levels.


It does. I can only assume he was thinking it would not be a major problem in the greater scheme of things. During a bulk I can see breaking the fast like this directly post workout with say 15-20 grams of aminos, then fasting until the normal time. I would only recommend that for someone who has already familiarized themselves with IF and can tell if what they are doing is working better for them or not. People modding stuff just to not be doing run of the mill end up not knowing how the original worked. They may mess it up for themselves by modding it and they would not even know because they have no reference point. For those who know what to expect they will be able to tell if there is merit to the modification or not.
Click to expand...

Thank you Kleen. All I needed to know.
 
allstr921 said:
Well I'm using BMR of 2341 as my base for the +10% / -30% but I am in a cut....I am currently 262lbs 23.6% with a 42 in waist. I decided not to add exercise calories into the figures. Is that a big mistake? So training day I look for 2,550 calories and rest day look for 1,638 calories. I have good size so I am looking to maintain the size and really shed the bodyfat which is hiding everything and I want to get my waist size to the middle 30's. What do you guys think? Stay with BMR range or add working out which would be 45-60 mins weight lifting 3 days a week and trying to do cardio either running or biking for 30 mins at least 5 days a week.
Click to expand...

I have identical goals. You basically answered in your final statement what to do. This is what I do now.
 
I get up take a BCAA/EAA drink and one halfway between around 9am and then I break myh fast around noon. As i go into more of a calorie deficit I may increase amonts... I will be using BCAA's around workouts at that time also. Right now I am in a fed state and eating pretty good so am just using my regular shake after workout.
 
Invalid Link Removed
"Bullnox Androrush"

Ok so here is my debate ...
This contains 55 Calories ... Now I know it's supposed to be no more than 50 calories during the fast and I have also gone back and fwd with Frank about calories in Supplements if count em or not ... But this case is different ...
I plan on taking this during the fast, take some BCAAs after and Jack3d all together and train fasted ... Is this pushing it? Safe or sorry?
 
Vote4pedro said:
Invalid Link Removed
"Bullnox Androrush"

Ok so here is my debate ...
This contains 55 Calories ... Now I know it's supposed to be no more than 50 calories during the fast and I have also gone back and fwd with Frank about calories in Supplements if count em or not ... But this case is different ...
I plan on taking this during the fast, take some BCAAs after and Jack3d all together and train fasted ... Is this pushing it? Safe or sorry?
Click to expand...


bigger question is why this plus jack3d?
 
allstr921 said:
Hi guys,

For my training day I'm thinking about have a whole wheat pasta with chicken dish to break my fast......what kind of sauce can I use that wont through my fat content over my limit cuz I was thinking garlic and olive oil but that would be too many fat grams along with the fat grams from the chicken......tomotoe sauce? any suggustions greatly appreciated?
Click to expand...

Get a can of crushed tomatoes , chop half a onion , 1 clove of garlic and sweat the onion and garlic with half a tablespoon of olive oil until they brown . Then add the tomatoes and simmer it for 5 mins. That's almost no fat and it won't cost you more than 2 bucks. Heck of a lot cheaper than jar sauce.
 
Thanks for the responses fellas. The reason I asked was because I was following Norton's shredding diet and intraworkout he suggests some whey protein and 30-40g dextrose. I will avoid this and stick to the BCAAs instead!

Sent from my Thunderbolt using AM for Android!
 
roblasane said:
Get a can of crushed tomatoes , chop half a onion , 1 clove of garlic and sweat the onion and garlic with half a tablespoon of olive oil until they brown . Then add the tomatoes and simmer it for 5 mins. That's almost no fat and it won't cost you more than 2 bucks. Heck of a lot cheaper than jar sauce.
Click to expand...


I like this...any way you can reinvent a grocery store staple using fresh food is a plus. I do this with salsa as well...especially for those who are OCD when it come to knowing where every calorie is coming from.
 
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