The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

[soontobbeast]

Ya.. Sure.. Lol

There is science on just about every diet. That is what gives a basis for it. That is what gives people the confidence to try it.

Do you feel 16hr is some magic number? Show me studies based on a fast for that time in weight trained individuals.

I still fast for 12hr technically. When I diet I'll fast longer just as a means to have more satisfying meals, but that's about it.

You believe what you like. I've been if'ng for the better part of 2 years trying various protocols for extended periods of time on myself and a few dozen others. I have an "ok" idea of what IF is and isn't.

The real "magic" is convenience.

No, the real ''magic'' is the autophagic process. IF took away some of the apprehension about going long bouts without eating. That's what i most enjoy about IF. Now if i go back to a different style of eating there's less stress about meal timing, because now having done this so long, I'm used to a varying eating schedule.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

No, the real ''magic'' is the autophagic process. IF took away some of the apprehension about going long bouts without eating. That's what i most enjoy about IF. Now if i go back to a different style of eating there's less stress about meal timing, because now having done this so long, I'm used to a varying eating schedule.

And that all comes back to convenience. If you ask most people what they like about if almost unanimously "not having to eat every 2hrs/frequently" will be near the top.

 

[Celorza]

And that all comes back to convenience. If you ask most people what they like about if almost unanimously "not having to eat every 2hrs/frequently" will be near the top.

Nuff said , convenience hehe. Aside from that, you can't deny fasted cardio and training do have their advantages over their counterparts

 

[live to lift]

Well after a pound of turkey loin two large sweet potatoes and veggies i can safely say my post workout meal is going to take some time getting use to

 

[Celorza]

Well after a pound of turkey loin two large sweet potatoes and veggies i can safely say my post workout meal is going to take some time getting use to

That sounds yummy!! I usually go for 8oz (1 cup) of extra lean ground beef broiled with mushrooms , 2 scoops iso 100 in mootopia milk (1 cup) , 2 pieces of whole wheat bread and like 1.5 sweet potatoes!!! Takes a while getting used to eat that much!! haha

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Nuff said , convenience hehe. Aside from that, you can't deny fasted cardio and training do have their advantages over their counterparts

I prefer to train fasted as I just feel better, however it is debatable weather it matters. I have seen arguments for both sides.

I do cardio, and train fasted when possible, because it is what I prefer, but if I can't, I don't stress over it. I am big about not over thinking ****. Just get it done.

 

[Rosie Chee]

Oh since you said u train after your fasted state , I assumed you were using 1 p.w.o. meal or 2 p.w.o. from the guidelines in lg.com lol

No, I train fasted (usually - sometimes not, but that's only if it can't be helped). The ONLY "guideline" I follow re Lean Gains is the 16-hour fast/8-hour feeding window - everything else I do is SPECIFIC TO ME.

~Rosie~

 

[Ninjo]

No, I train fasted (usually - sometimes not, but that's only if it can't be helped). The ONLY "guideline" I follow re Lean Gains is the 16-hour fast/8-hour feeding window - everything else I do is SPECIFIC TO ME.

~Rosie~

Couldn't agree more Rosie! Everyone is different and that's what's so great about LG imo; so long as you adhere to the 16/8 protocol, you can tweak it to suit your own preferences regarding training and nutrition and still derive all the benefits!

 

[EasyEJL]

its HARD WORK getting all the carbs in on the "ON" days.

I have a Maintenance kCal = 3250 kCal
Protein = 250 grams/day

in a recomp I have +/-20% kCal offset for On/Off days. After Protein calories, I split carbs/fats 75%/25% for On days, 50%/50% Off days.

This makes 542 grams of carbs to eat on my "on" days... I have a great appetite but I am finding it hard to get these into my meals.

anyone else have a hard time getting the carbs in on the high carb days?

I don't even try to hit those sort of numbers. to do it, i'd need to use one of the powdered carb sources. I have a rough time breaking 250g of carbs.

 

[EasyEJL]

I prefer to train fasted as I just feel better, however it is debatable weather it matters. I have seen arguments for both sides.

I do cardio, and train fasted when possible, because it is what I prefer, but if I can't, I don't stress over it. I am big about not over thinking ****. Just get it done.

No, I train fasted (usually - sometimes not, but that's only if it can't be helped). The ONLY "guideline" I follow re Lean Gains is the 16-hour fast/8-hour feeding window - everything else I do is SPECIFIC TO ME.

~Rosie~

I train early mornings, so it only makes sense to train fasted. even if I had my eating window as 7am-3pm it would suck tremendously to hit the gym right after a meal. And with family, its more important to have dinner with them. When I train evenings though its after my last meal of the day which is its own sort of odd. but since my meals are solid food, there are plenty of nutrients in bloodstream at that point anyhow.

 

[Celorza]

I prefer to train fasted as I just feel better, however it is debatable weather it matters. I have seen arguments for both sides.

I do cardio, and train fasted when possible, because it is what I prefer, but if I can't, I don't stress over it. I am big about not over thinking ****. Just get it done.

Yeah I dont overthink it much now too...also I forgot to thank you for guiding me into the 5/3/1 scheme , I've been trying it out , and god is it good? I liked it a lot , and it makes me feel so much better and I dont feel like I'm overtraining or half-assing it at the gym :3 Planned out my whole 6 week Mesocycle and waiting to see the results!! !

 

[Celorza]

No, I train fasted (usually - sometimes not, but that's only if it can't be helped). The ONLY "guideline" I follow re Lean Gains is the 16-hour fast/8-hour feeding window - everything else I do is SPECIFIC TO ME.

~Rosie~

All I gotta say , is that you are truly a remarkable inspiration and role model Rosie ^^ I've been reading the female terminator chronicles , and they are awesome haha. Nice supps, nice diet, and awesome workouts, you KNOW whats best for you Hopefully one day I'll know my body well enough like you , to know what to tweek in my plans to make it better for myself ^^

 

[soontobbeast]

And that all comes back to convenience. If you ask most people what they like about if almost unanimously "not having to eat every 2hrs/frequently" will be near the top.

No, you misunderstood. I meant that following IF and seeing no muscle loss[ even the contrary] has given me the courage i need to neglect specific eating times while following other diets that aren't using IF.

The number one benefit of fasting is autophagy. That is where the magic is. It cannot be truly expressed through limited 16 hour fasts,though.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

No, you misunderstood. I meant that following IF and seeing no muscle loss[ even the contrary] has given me the courage i need to neglect specific eating times while following other diets that aren't using IF.

The number one benefit of fasting is autophagy. That is where the magic is. It cannot be truly expressed through limited 16 hour fasts,though.

And would neglecting certain feeding times, stressing less over it, living an easier, happier life, not be more convenient?

What made you start IF in the first place? If eating 6 meals a day was working well for you, was easily accomplished, why the need for change? Did you change because it was LESS convenient?

I can tell you for MANY it is "oh **** I don't need to eat every 2 hrs/2-3 meals a day, that sounds awesome" lol

I can tell you for myself not having to eat 6 meals a day is what sold me. And I didn't have this same "fear" of wasting away that you seem to have had previously.

 

[soontobbeast]

And would neglecting certain feeding times, stressing less over it, living an easier, happier life, not be more convenient?

What made you start IF in the first place? If eating 6 meals a day was working well for you, was easily accomplished, why the need for change? Did you change because it was LESS convenient?

I can tell you for MANY it is "oh **** I don't need to eat every 2 hrs/2-3 meals a day, that sounds awesome" lol

I can tell you for myself not having to eat 6 meals a day is what sold me. And I didn't have this same "fear" of wasting away that you seem to have had previously.

I wouldn't say that i've 'changed back' necessarily, from IF. There are other styles of dieting that are better for different goals. Immediately, I think of Ultimate Diet 2.0. UD 2.0 to date has been the most effective diet for overall fatloss and recompositioning. It has a completely different scheme than lean gains, but, isn't done using 6 meals per day. Lean Gains is definitely effective and easier than UD 2.0, but it works differently.

6 meals a day just wouldn't work with UD 2.0 lol!

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I wouldn't say that i've 'changed back' necessarily, from IF. There are other styles of dieting that are better for different goals. Immediately, I think of Ultimate Diet 2.0. UD 2.0 to date has been the most effective diet for overall fatloss and recompositioning. It has a completely different scheme than lean gains, but, isn't done using 6 meals per day. Lean Gains is definitely effective and easier than UD 2.0, but it works differently.

6 meals a day just wouldn't work with UD 2.0 lol!

You didn't answer any of my questions..lol

I didn't ask if you've changed back.

 

[daniel11]

Obviously diet and lifestyle need to match which is why some people work well while others do not on every diet. Sometimes we need to adjust both diet and lifestyle to get it right.

For me LG works because I am satiated from the good meals: I snack/cheat much less. A big part of that is choosing whole foods, slower digesting proteins and carbs that give you a longer battery life.

Hard part: 540carbs in 8hrs

 

[live to lift]

Obviously diet and lifestyle need to match which is why some people work well while others do not on every diet. Sometimes we need to adjust both diet and lifestyle to get it right.

For me LG works because I am satiated from the good meals: I snack/cheat much less. A big part of that is choosing whole foods, slower digesting proteins and carbs that give you a longer battery life.

Hard part: 540carbs in 8hrs

Good luck with that brother, im doing the cutting protocol and i have a hard time getting the 350 carbs on wod let me know if you find an easy way lol

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I could eat that amount of carbs but I wouldn't want to. I'd fee like ****.

Why do you think you need so many carbs?

 

[Celorza]

Yeah...even after calculating mine , no way in hell i could eat 300 grams of carbs a day , i cut them down to 200-220 grams!!

 

[AaronJP1]

I could eat that amount of carbs but I wouldn't want to. I'd fee like ****.

Why do you think you need so many carbs?

U think carbs make u fat?

 

[Frank Reynolds]

U think carbs make u fat?

Are you asking if I think they make ME fat? Or everyone? lol Either way I don't think that is a question with enough detail to answer. Just about anything can make anyone fat given the right circumstances.

Me PERSONALLY. When I consume an abundance of carbs it makes me feel like ****, so I prefer not to eat a ton of them daily. It doesn't have to do with making me fat really. It has more to do with not making myself MISERABLE

If eating 500g of carbs is an issue for someone, I would ask why they are trying to eat that specific number.

 

[AaronJP1]

Are you asking if I think they make ME fat? Or everyone? lol Either way I don't think that is a question with enough detail to answer. Just about anything can make anyone fat given the right circumstances.

Me PERSONALLY. When I consume an abundance of carbs it makes me feel like ****, so I prefer not to eat a ton of them daily. It doesn't have to do with making me fat really. It has more to do with not making myself MISERABLE

If eating 500g of carbs is an issue for someone, I would ask why they are trying to eat that specific number.

Understood

 

[Whacked]

I dont care what anyone says carbs make ME fat.

With all things similar, on a same calorie diet but exchanging fats for carbs, I get FAT - not just hold water - but get FAT!

I'm a low carb guy b/c that's what works for me.

I've tried all the GDA's to assist but to no avail.

Carbs make me FAT

Conversely, when I am rigid with my low carb diet, I get PEELED.

 

[EasyEJL]

U think carbs make u fat?

its not really a think. overconsumption of carbs makes you fat by a far larger margin than overconsumption of protein or fats. its just a bit individual what "overconsumption" means, your tolerance level may be a lot different than mine

 

[MrKleen73]

Holy Crap thank goodness my Multi-Quote button is not working, and I can't remember everything I wanted to respond to.

Fasted Cardio DOES NOT BURN more fat than unfasted cardio. That is bro science to the max. Your muscles store over well over 100 grams of glycogen overnight, which is more than enough to power you through a cardio session without depleting your glycogen stores completely. As a matter of fact it is plenty of glycogen for a resistance training session considering you are fully loaded from a higher carb day the training day before.

MORNING Cardio burns more fat than afternoon cardio, WHY IS THAT? Simply and only because your metabolism gets raised earlier in the day than when you do it in the afternoon or evening. The body naturally slows your metabolism for sleep so you do not get the same caloric burn doing it later in the day simply due to the metabolims being revved longer. So you burn a tiny bit extra throughout the day. As far as being fasted for cardio, it has been proven that 20 grams of protein pre cardio will actually result in more calories and fat burned...

Also more than simply being fasted part of the power of the fast is limiting insulin throughout the day, and increasing Glucagon which is a catabolic hormone that catabolizes fat, and spares muscle. As far as fat loss and what not goes when insulin shows up fat loss stops temporarily, glucagon and insulin are antagonizing hormones and when one is there the other goes away, they do opposite things. Having a small low carb protein shake in the morning is not going to cause a problem as far as insulin goes especially if a mixed blend or casein, so the glucagon should pretty much remain constant. However it WOULD stimulate protein synthesis, and could maintain it for 7 hours. So really as far as the fat loss is concerned it is not going to make that big of difference and if the goal is gaining some lbm too then it can only help things.

You have to remember this thread is NOT JUST ABOUT LEAN GAINS. It is about Intermittent Fasting. People correcting people about what is considered a proper fasting period for Lean Gains should verify that they are actually correcting someone trying to run Lean Gains exclusively.

Regarding Autophagy, it is a great benefit but the autophagy portion of fasting does not really kick up much until later on in the fast which Lean Gains does not go into normally because there is a focus on anabolism and a certain type of fat loss. He stops the fast at 16 hours because it is when the body goes into burning more fat, but the increase is to visceral fat loss not subcutaneous so Martin does not see it as beneficial to his catabolic / anabolic ratios considering the ealier he adds in food the more anabolic the diet becomes. Autophagy is a great health benefit but like I said it increases more in the 20+ hours of fasting from everything I have read. People more concerned with life extension tend to follow the ADF version of IF or Alternate Day Fasting which has almost a 24-36 hour fast.

 

[Whacked]

Simply put - I'd die

Autophagy is a great health benefit but like I said it increases more in the 20+ hours of fasting from everything I have read. People more concerned with life extension tend to follow the ADF version of IF or Alternate Day Fasting which has almost a 24-36 hour fast.

 

[EasyEJL]

I've done the ADF, its just hard to sync up workout days with eating days. you almost have to for it to work well.

 

[daniel11]

After calculating maint.cal intake I apply +/-20% for on/off days (recomp).
After protein calories (250g) I split remaining calories 75% carbs 25% fat (on days). Based on those calories I get 540g carbs for on days.

 

[daniel11]

That said, it is getting easier. And it does not really make me feel ****. In fact the next morning (fasting) I feel great. I eat long lasting complex carbs.

 

[MrKleen73]

Wow that is a ton to eat on a regular basis but we are all very individual when it comes to carbs. Insulin Sensitivity is the key factor to consider as far as that goes.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

After calculating maint.cal intake I apply +/-20% for on/off days (recomp).
After protein calories (250g) I split remaining calories 75% carbs 25% fat (on days). Based on those calories I get 540g carbs for on days.

That is a recommendation, however it isn't set in stone.

Again if you can get that food down, day in, and day out, and feel fine doing it, more power to ya.

I'd be a watery, bloated, gassy, mess...lol

 

[Celorza]

That is a recommendation, however it isn't set in stone.

Again if you can get that food down, day in, and day out, and feel fine doing it, more power to ya.

I'd be a watery, bloated, gassy, mess...lol

Same here lol my initial calculations , and even on a cut of +10/-45% kcals , on w.o. days i was set for around 180-200 grams of prot and 300-350 grams of carbs...which i couldnt ingest haha so I usually try for 200-250grams , like stated before , this is just a recommendation , you can and should addapt it to best suit you ;p!

 

[EasyEJL]

for laughs I tried to slam more carbs today. breakfast was 7 whole eggs, 1 1/2 cups white rice, 16oz whole milk, 60g perfect carbs and some ****ty protein mix that ended up with 42g protein, 24g carbs, 10g fat. That is the most i've had in one meal in a while

 

[ScottyDoc]

MORNING Cardio burns more fat than afternoon cardio, WHY IS THAT? Simply and only because your metabolism gets raised earlier in the day than when you do it in the afternoon or evening. The body naturally slows your metabolism for sleep so you do not get the same caloric burn doing it later in the day simply due to the metabolims being revved longer. So you burn a tiny bit extra throughout the day. As far as being fasted for cardio, it has been proven that 20 grams of protein pre cardio will actually result in more calories and fat burned...

Kleen... if I may: I have found that my body does best when I do my workouts first thing in the morning and then come back to the gym to do my hour of cardio 8-10hrs later (evening). I totally understand and agree with what you posted above, not arguing that at all, but what I am trying to point out and why I think it works so well for me, is because later in the day, when my metabolism has started to slow down, I pick it back up, therefore keeping my metabolism higher for a longer period of time throughout the entire day. Anyway, just wanted to throw that LiL tid-bit in (Bro-Knowledge) LoL!

 

[MrKleen73]

Kleen... if I may: I have found that my body does best when I do my workouts first thing in the morning and then come back to the gym to do my hour of cardio 8-10hrs later (evening). I totally understand and agree with what you posted above, not arguing that at all, but what I am trying to point out and why I think it works so well for me, is because later in the day, when my metabolism has started to slow down, I pick it back up, therefore keeping my metabolism higher for a longer period of time throughout the entire day. Anyway, just wanted to throw that LiL tid-bit in (Bro-Knowledge) LoL!

Absolutely Doc! Actually lifting weights in the morning would increase your metabolism almost twice the amount of what the morning cardio would, so that makes a lot of sense. Then adding in the second bout to rekindle the burn is just icing on the cake.

 

[Celorza]

Absolutely Doc! Actually lifting weights in the morning would increase your metabolism almost twice the amount of what the morning cardio would, so that makes a lot of sense. Then adding in the second bout to rekindle the burn is just icing on the cake.

Even though it wasnt with IF when I did this , I used to do this , on a non-empty stomach after my breakfast with a carb cycling diet (6 meals a day) lift in the morning , cardio around 8 hours later...I got to say that is how I lost at least 40 of my 52lbs of body fat I had...It is totally true that this effect boosts up metabolism...at least for me it was too , and also , it helps create a better caloric deficit.

 

[EasyEJL]

I think ScottyDoc has way too much time on his hands to be able to do that

 

[ScottyDoc]

I think ScottyDoc has way too much time on his hands to be able to do that

Wife left me... Just me and the gym baby, the gym will never let me down, always there when I need her, always gives back what I put into it, never complains, never says, "Hey, where you been?" or gets jealous if I visit other gyms, just old faithful, always there for me!

^^^Kind of like "Hand-gella" she's been my faithful companion since 8th grade!!!^^^

 

[ScottyDoc]

Wife left me... Just me and the gym baby, the gym will never let me down, always there when I need her, always gives back what I put into it, never complains, never says, "Hey, where you been?" or gets jealous if I visit other gyms, just old faithful, always there for me!

Oh... and I only do that when I'm trying to get super lean, like when..... I'm SINGLE!!! Bahahahahaa <Evil Laugh>

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I gotta do two a days when getting super lean too. Morning gym then cardio and a night cardio session. It's that or eat like a 7 year old Ethiopian child.

 

[MrKleen73]

Wife left me... Just me and the gym baby, the gym will never let me down, always there when I need her, always gives back what I put into it, never complains, never says, "Hey, where you been?" or gets jealous if I visit other gyms, just old faithful, always there for me!

^^^Kind of like "Hand-gella" she's been my faithful companion since 8th grade!!!^^^

Not to mention she likes it when you bring other partners, and takes less time to warm up...

 

[Celorza]

Wife left me... Just me and the gym baby, the gym will never let me down, always there when I need her, always gives back what I put into it, never complains, never says, "Hey, where you been?" or gets jealous if I visit other gyms, just old faithful, always there for me!

^^^Kind of like "Hand-gella" she's been my faithful companion since 8th grade!!!^^^

I feel yah on that...My fiancee left me (yes I am 21 and I was engaged...both wealthy families and we were both about to graduate from college... so we figured why wait?...)...and well since then , its just me and the gym...but since I had moved to this town and knew no one but her and her friends...well I lost everything and the gym is everything for me now , school has always been easy for me so no problem here haha...and yeah the gym has that quality...it never lets you down, and the more you give it , the more it gives back...its never selfish or neglecting...and it will never abandon you...Actually this is the reason why I got into bodybuilding , curiously enough, I dont know if its because I've got a less calorie-deprived diet and lean gains tires me down by night...but at least I get a better nights sleep now (maybe because I take my stims fasted and from 6 am to 12-1pm) and nothing else after that point with stims) or because i go to bed with a full belly...but yeah...IFing is definitely helping out a lot...

 

[F355]

I've read that consuming 20g of protein before workouts can increase metabolism and burn fat but it's not possible for me to do since my eating window is from 3pm-11pm. This is why I'm going to use BCAAs in the fasted, morning gym sessions.

But I am curious though, is there an advantage to having your eating window earlier in the day than later? Some swear to not eat past 8pm but if I'm fasting for 16+ hours and eating within 8 hours, it shouldn't matter, right?

 

[Celorza]

I've read that consuming 20g of protein before workouts can increase metabolism and burn fat but it's not possible for me to do since my eating window is from 3pm-11pm. This is why I'm going to use BCAAs in the fasted, morning gym sessions.

But I am curious though, is there an advantage to having your eating window earlier in the day than later? Some swear to not eat past 8pm but if I'm fasting for 16+ hours and eating within 8 hours, it shouldn't matter, right?

Actually acording to the lean gains faq, you CAN have up to 30 grams of whey without it counting as "breaking" your fast , and is easier if you dont want to take BCAAs ;p! So nothing wrong with it , the reason the fast is at night is so people can fast forward the first 6-10 hours by sleeping hehe , merely convinience , you could eat from 7am to 3pm and fast the rest if you want , it wont make a dent.

 

[F355]

Actually acording to the lean gains faq, you CAN have up to 30 grams of whey without it counting as "breaking" your fast , and is easier if you dont want to take BCAAs ;p! So nothing wrong with it , the reason the fast is at night is so people can fast forward the first 6-10 hours by sleeping hehe , merely convinience , you could eat from 7am to 3pm and fast the rest if you want , it wont make a dent.

I'd rather fast throughout the day and then break it mid-day. Reason being is 1) I want to train fasted to take advantage of fat burning and 2) I like to eat at night because that's when I start to get hungry the most.

I have no problem not eating during the morning and middle of the day. A mild stim helps greatly with appetite suppression.

As far as 30g of whey not breaking the fast, I've never read that and I don't want to risk it. EasyJ said anything under 50kcals won't break the fast, 30g of whey would amount to 120kcals. Plus, a lot of proteins aren't just straight up whey, they also can contain some fat and carbs that add to the cals. So I'm just going to stick with BCAAs in the fasted training sessions.

 

[Celorza]

I'd rather fast throughout the day and then break it mid-day. Reason being is 1) I want to train fasted to take advantage of fat burning and 2) I like to eat at night because that's when I start to get hungry the most.

I have no problem not eating during the morning and middle of the day. A mild stim helps greatly with appetite suppression.

As far as 30g of whey not breaking the fast, I've never read that and I don't want to risk it. EasyJ said anything under 50kcals won't break the fast, 30g of whey would amount to 120kcals. Plus, a lot of proteins aren't just straight up whey, they also can contain some fat and carbs that add to the cals. So I'm just going to stick with BCAAs in the fasted training sessions.

Lol don't over think it, iso100 had no carbs lol and google leangains FAQ it's in there , that you can take it , but hey whatever works for you! It's just a guide remember, make it work for you

 

[jswain34]

What do you guys think about SAA's instead of BCAA's to drink during fasting? I am looking to get some new BCAAs but I just wanted to see if you guys had any input on these for fasted training and the use of them for IF.

 

[MrKleen73]

What do you guys think about SAA's instead of BCAA's to drink during fasting? I am looking to get some new BCAAs but I just wanted to see if you guys had any input on these for fasted training and the use of them for IF.

I did a search for SAA and I think a Sex Addict Anonymous meeting would be great cardio during your fast.

No really what do you mean by SAA, I am aware of BCAA and EAA but not familiar with that one unless that was a typo.

 

[carpee]

What do you guys think about SAA's instead of BCAA's to drink during fasting? I am looking to get some new BCAAs but I just wanted to see if you guys had any input on these for fasted training and the use of them for IF.

I would stick with BCAA's.

leucine being the major player