The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

[Frank Reynolds]

i hear ya,

looks like you do the 20/4 fast which is nice.

I actually had blood work done while fasting for 24 hours last blood test. my t3 , and t4 was low, and free t3 was on high rang of normal. My rT3 which is related to elevated AgRP was super high. AgRP is what raises along with NPY during a fast of too long which can make it difficult to drop weight, and easier to gain on lower calories. plus its involved poor recovery. This is why i have developed what i have

I fast for 16. Eat at 1, stop at 9.

I'm actually getting blood work soon,I have the orders for it already. Will report back. My thyroid function was always sluggish so we shall see.

I'm staying fairly lean(for me) despite the added calories, and carbs, so that is something lol.

 

[ScottyDoc]

I fast for 16. Eat at 1, stop at 9.

I'm actually getting blood work soon,I have the orders for it already. Will report back. My thyroid function was always sluggish so we shall see.

I'm staying fairly lean(for me) despite the added calories, and carbs, so that is something lol.

Where is your BF% at these days? Are you still as lean as the pictures you shared with me?

 

[ssbackwards]

I fast for 16. Eat at 1, stop at 9.

I'm actually getting blood work soon,I have the orders for it already. Will report back. My thyroid function was always sluggish so we shall see.

I'm staying fairly lean(for me) despite the added calories, and carbs, so that is something lol.

for sure, if you are super hungry more then likely theres rT3 in the will be raised. thyroid hormones may appear low or normal. but TSH will definetly be normal and rt3 will be high.

Ways i figured how to reduce that AgRP is CALCIUM between meals.

 

[JudoJosh]

I have actually been toying with a few things in my head, myself on where I am going to go from here when it comes time to actually GROW. I really don't think LG is going to be optimal for me, in terms of all out mass accumulation.

I know I wasnt asked but I figured I would share


I feel that for mass gaining, the warrior diet really shines over lean gains. It is a period of under eating (not really 100% fasting) followed by a period of over eating.

Again I would recommend getting "Maximum muscle minimum fat" by Hoffmeckler but here is how I would do a mass gaining diet with the warrior diet.

Meal 1:
10g EAA
10g BCAA
10g Glutamine
3g Taurine

15mins later:
25g casein or egg proein (or whole food source just not something like steak)
4g fish oil
1 cup blueberries, blackberries, strawberries or a small salad

Meal 2 and 3 same as the first meal (amino mix followed by a small meal)

* Also if it is a training day I would have 10g EAA and 10g Glut prior to the workout and have 30g BCAAs intra workout and for post workout something like 40-60g WMS and 40-50g protein drink. (This pre & post meal will replace on of the above meals or if you like you can have your feast for post workout and not the WMS and whey)

Then meal 4 is the feast meal where you over eat. This really is the bulk of your calories for the day. Usually it is a big huge salad with some kind of meat and EVOO based dressing along with some rice (or quiona), a steak, sweet potato, EVCO, a whey shake and maybe a couple cookies or ice cream. The total macros and calories for this meal will be dependent on how fast you want to bulk and with how much spill over you are happy with. (I tend to not go too crazy as I think a lean mass bulk is far better than a balls to the wall all out bulk) If need be you can also divide the feast up into 2 big feedings (if your not able to get all the required calories in one sitting)

And then lastly before bed some cottage cheese or greek yogurt (or nothing if your already at your protein fill for the day)

It is a somewhat modified version of Hoffmecklers warrior diet approach and with regards to lean bulking, I find it works pretty well. Your under eating period (where your having aminos followed by a small meal) should last around 12 hours or so with a 4 hour over eating window.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I know I wasnt asked but I figured I would share

I feel that for mass gaining, the warrior diet really shines over lean gains. It is a period of under eating (not really 100% fasting) followed by a period of over eating.

Again I would recommend getting "Maximum muscle minimum fat" by Hoffmeckler but here is how I would do a mass gaining diet with the warrior diet.

Meal 1:
10g EAA
10g BCAA
10g Glutamine
3g Taurine

15mins later:
25g casein or egg proein (or whole food source just not something like steak)
4g fish oil
1 cup blueberries, blackberries, strawberries or a small salad

Meal 2 and 3 same as the first meal (amino mix followed by a small meal)

* Also if it is a training day I would have 10g EAA and 10g Glut prior to the workout and have 30g BCAAs intra workout and for post workout something like 40-60g WMS and 40-50g protein drink. (This pre & post meal will replace on of the above meals or if you like you can have your feast for post workout and not the WMS and whey)

Then meal 4 is the feast meal where you over eat. This really is the bulk of your calories for the day. Usually it is a big huge salad with some kind of meat and EVOO based dressing along with some rice (or quiona), a steak, sweet potato, EVCO, a whey shake and maybe a couple cookies or ice cream. The total macros and calories for this meal will be dependent on how fast you want to bulk and with how much spill over you are happy with. (I tend to not go too crazy as I think a lean mass bulk is far better than a balls to the wall all out bulk) If need be you can also divide the feast up into 2 big feedings (if your not able to get all the required calories in one sitting)

And then lastly before bed some cottage cheese or greek yogurt (or nothing if your already at your protein fill for the day)

It is a somewhat modified version of Hoffmecklers warrior diet approach and with regards to lean bulking, I find it works pretty well. Your under eating period (where your having aminos followed by a small meal) should last around 12 hours or so with a 4 hour over eating window.

Done it. It was my intro into IF. Like what I'm doing now better. That is more or less IA's modified version.

Not really a lot different to the lean gains with the added small meal etc.

Just not sold for all out mass gains.

What is your current stats?

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Where is your BF% at these days? Are you still as lean as the pictures you shared with me?

Yup, pretty close. Probably not much more then a .5-1% difference, if that. Just a little more water from day to day carbs/calories, etc.

 

[JRC]

A la Lyle McDonald, this isnt entirely true, various bacteria in your gut breaks down fiber and it has been given a rough approximate caloric value of 1.5-2 calories/gram, but unless your eating a ton of veggies it shouldn't really matter. Some even argue the amount of energy required to break down the veggies is more then the energy in them, making them negative calorie food (although there is no evidence to support this that I know of)

As for the calories during the fast, i would suggest reading maximum muscle minimum fat by Hoffmeckler. I think you can have a lot more calories during your fasting period than you may think.

As for the calorie content of BCAAs, I have posted my opinion on this before and while aminos do have a calorie value of around 4kcal/g, a calorie isnt always a calorie

Starting this book once I finish his first Warrior diet book. I'm doing a modified warrior diet which I'm loving. A lot of ways to implement IF.....awesome stuff.

 

[JRC]

Done it. It was my intro into IF. Like what I'm doing now better. That is more or less IA's modified version.

Not really a lot different to the lean gains with the added small meal etc.

Just not sold for all out mass gains.

What is your current stats?

Your familiar with IAs approach to the warrior diet Frank ? He's actually the guy who got me started on the warrior diet back in 2010 before he passed away. Very similar to what judo posted.

From the moment I tried it I was hooked. Made a few minor changes but the principle stayed. Seems to be working. On a recomp now....will report back in 3 months.

 

[JRC]

I know I wasnt asked but I figured I would share

I feel that for mass gaining, the warrior diet really shines over lean gains. It is a period of under eating (not really 100% fasting) followed by a period of over eating.

Again I would recommend getting "Maximum muscle minimum fat" by Hoffmeckler but here is how I would do a mass gaining diet with the warrior diet.

Meal 1:
10g EAA
10g BCAA
10g Glutamine
3g Taurine

15mins later:
25g casein or egg proein (or whole food source just not something like steak)
4g fish oil
1 cup blueberries, blackberries, strawberries or a small salad

Meal 2 and 3 same as the first meal (amino mix followed by a small meal)

* Also if it is a training day I would have 10g EAA and 10g Glut prior to the workout and have 30g BCAAs intra workout and for post workout something like 40-60g WMS and 40-50g protein drink. (This pre & post meal will replace on of the above meals or if you like you can have your feast for post workout and not the WMS and whey)

Then meal 4 is the feast meal where you over eat. This really is the bulk of your calories for the day. Usually it is a big huge salad with some kind of meat and EVOO based dressing along with some rice (or quiona), a steak, sweet potato, EVCO, a whey shake and maybe a couple cookies or ice cream. The total macros and calories for this meal will be dependent on how fast you want to bulk and with how much spill over you are happy with. (I tend to not go too crazy as I think a lean mass bulk is far better than a balls to the wall all out bulk) If need be you can also divide the feast up into 2 big feedings (if your not able to get all the required calories in one sitting)

And then lastly before bed some cottage cheese or greek yogurt (or nothing if your already at your protein fill for the day)

It is a somewhat modified version of Hoffmecklers warrior diet approach and with regards to lean bulking, I find it works pretty well. Your under eating period (where your having aminos followed by a small meal) should last around 12 hours or so with a 4 hour over eating window.

You wouldn't happen to have IAs book? This is very similar to his approach to the warrior diet. All good stuff! I'm curious to try and use this diet for massing.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Your familiar with IAs approach to the warrior diet Frank ? He's actually the guy who got me started on the warrior diet back in 2010 before he passed away. Very similar to what judo posted.

From the moment I tried it I was hooked. Made a few minor changes but the principle stayed. Seems to be working. On a recomp now....will report back in 3 months.

Yes hence why I said it was his version.heh

When set up like ia did it is getting closer to a lg diet honestly. Def effective. I just tweaked it for me a bit further.

How are your mass gains? Any pics?

 

[JRC]

Yes hence why I said it was his version.heh

When set up like ia did it is getting closer to a lg diet honestly. Def effective. I just tweaked it for me a bit further.

How are your mass gains? Any pics?

Not currently.....got married in August and ever since coming back from Hawaii I've been on a slow recomp.

Looking to maybe start a mass phase in 3 or 4 months. I'll keep progress and let you know how it goes. I think with the couple "underfeed" meals during the day it might help while massing if I tweek it some.

I've had to play around with it a bit and had an injury inbetween and newly wed life but I think I finally got a good recomp plan so we'll see how it goes.

How's your set up going for you?

 

[mxer657]

I'm pretty sure most of us have IF dialed in pretty well where we can bulk or cut effectively any given day. I find that a huge benefit so I can constantly tailor my eating protocol around how I look and feel. Unless I see real progress pictures and proof of something else working better, I'm going to stick to IF as long as I need to maintain or cut. I still think it is only 85ish% effective while gaining (Just my personal experience and thoughts). But if I come back to it in a month after my bulk, you'll know why! lol

 

[JudoJosh]

Done it. It was my intro into IF. Like what I'm doing now better. That is more or less IA's modified version.

Your familiar with IAs approach to the warrior diet Frank ? He's actually the guy who got me started on the warrior diet back in 2010 before he passed away. Very similar to what judo posted.

From the moment I tried it I was hooked. Made a few minor changes but the principle stayed. Seems to be working. On a recomp now....will report back in 3 months.

Wes is the one who got me into looking into Warrior diet too (thats why it probably looks so much like his ) He was a great guy (RIP) whos works still influence my diet and training ideas still to this day.

Not really a lot different to the lean gains with the added small meal etc.

Really? I would say Martins fasting period is way different then Hoffmecklers under eating peroid. With LG who only consume minimal amounts of aminos throughout the majority of the day where as with warrior diet you have small meals throughout the day.

You wouldn't happen to have IAs book? This is very similar to his approach to the warrior diet. All good stuff! I'm curious to try and use this diet for massing.

Yes I have two of IAs books. Very good and I would recommend them to you if your interested in the warrior diet. I like his variation more than Hoffmecklers original diet.

All of Wes books are still available on his site

Also Frank, if you are doubtful over the mass gaining potential of IAs warrior variation, might I suggest you checking out kabukis video log here on AM. I dont think he is currently following the warrior diet but for the majority of that log he was

 

[JRC]

Wes is the one who got me into looking into Warrior diet too (thats why it probably looks so much like his ) He was a great guy (RIP) whos works still influence my diet and training ideas still to this day.

Really? I would say Martins fasting period is way different then Hoffmecklers under eating peroid. With LG who only consume minimal amounts of aminos throughout the majority of the day where as with warrior diet you have small meals throughout the day.

Yes I have two of IAs books. Very good and I would recommend them to you if your interested in the warrior diet. I like his variation more than Hoffmecklers original diet.

All of Wes books are still available on his site

Also Frank,

Ya wes definitely still influences me til this day....Rip :/

But yeah, I have his fat loss book and the modified warrior diet e-book aka metabolic rebound diet. Good reads....tho the e-book was a lot of copy n paste from his paperback book it seems. Can't blame anyone tho....I think it was unfinished when he passed away?

I am like you tho...much prefer his version then Ori's. I figured I'd read Oris books to see how it all began for Wes.

 

[mkretz]

so many choices....i ut wanna get big! lol

 

[ssbackwards]

When I was keto I never used MCTs but now EVCO is a staple for me! But then again I am no longer keto anymore. I based my keto diet off DiPasquales book (AD) and never got around to reading Lyles keto book but thanks for that info. I may try it again with some MCTs and see how it goes. I think I have seen you post before that MCTs make up a decent amount if your fat intake. Notice any difference from just regular fat intake?

yea i look a little leaner, i get a nice taste of butter from the EVCO that i put on my broccoli with garlic and salt.

it works around workout i mainly have it post workout to be oxidized quick as my metabolism/body is craving food. so using it to be oxidized into more ketone bodies, and then fasting for 8-12 hours (mor recent 10-12 hour) till my next meal i have less food intake and hunger signals and feel as though im burning more.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Also Frank, if you are doubtful over the mass gaining potential of IAs warrior variation, might I suggest you checking out kabukis video log here on AM. I dont think he is currently following the warrior diet but for the majority of that log he was

I haven't seen it but I remember his logs from the past and he was already one big mofo, IIRC.

But that is irrelevant, as he is not me..haha. I have tried it. IA is what got me into IF in the first place. I did it his way for quite a while actually before making more of a switch to a LG style, and then kinda morphing into my own from there.

I have been If'ng for over a year now, and played with MANY protocols, and while I HAVE gained, and stayed in good shape, I am not sure I am maximized what I "could" do in actual mass gaining "mode". Could it be the 2% of my brain that is still believing conventional BB dogma, and that is what is leaning be back to something different? Maybe. But I feel I left some size on the table.

However doing a 4 meal plan, like I proposed, is not a far stretch quite honestly, as I will typically do a smaller morning meal, mid day will be pre-wo and be larger(more carbs), post another large meal, and last meal will be smaller.

How much mass have you gained personally?

Really? I would say Martins fasting period is way different then Hoffmecklers under eating peroid. With LG who only consume minimal amounts of aminos throughout the majority of the day where as with warrior diet you have small meals throughout the day.

A large portion of the fast is when I am sleeping, and I will fast until noon(now 1), before breaking it with a "small meal". "Typically" it is a 16hr fast/8hr feed in which one may have small meals(underfeeding), and a large meal(overfeeding).. There are differences, sure, but there are MORE differences from Ori's to Martins, then from IA's to Martins IMO. That kind of bridges the gap.

A lot of people doing IA's would also fast a little later in the day(11am, etc). It is all semantics, and things used to separate one from the other, really just modifications giving them their own "niche" IMO.

Now that I am kind in a maintenance phase, I am not at all against revisiting that sort of protocol however. I am ALWAYS down to experiment. There are some variables however that are now eliminated, in which I might be better suited for one more crack at it.

I may PM you for a quick refresher.

 

[ScottyDoc]

Yup, pretty close. Probably not much more then a .5-1% difference, if that. Just a little more water from day to day carbs/calories, etc.

Awesome Bro, way to maintain, like I said, I'm just kinda doing my thing right now while I maintain through the Holidays, then I will truly give this LG with IF stuff a real go, but like you I will have to keep it very strict & measured out, I am really good at adhering to a plan, but it is when I don't have a plan that I start to stray the course and the next thing you know, I just wasted a few months spinning my wheels doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result (Insane in the Membrane)

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Awesome Bro, way to maintain, like I said, I'm just kinda doing my thing right now while I maintain through the Holidays, then I will truly give this LG with IF stuff a real go, but like you I will have to keep it very strict & measured out, I am really good at adhering to a plan, but it is when I don't have a plan that I start to stray the course and the next thing you know, I just wasted a few months spinning my wheels doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result (Insane in the Membrane)

I am the same way man. I NEED a gameplan. It keeps me focused, and in check.

One thing I do in regards to how I structure my diets is not count every calorie/macro. Protein = protein, fat= fat, etc. I don't count the protein in PB, or fat in chicken breast. Obviously if I eat something like a fattier cut of beef on a protein/fat meal I will count the fat in the beef to anything over a chicken breast.

I set the target for each meal and hit them. It simplifies things. Consistency is what is important. If you have 2 tablespoons of bbq sauce with meals, and don't count it that is fine, NEVER count it. When it comes time to pull calories out, and you pull out say 25g of carbs(100cal) from a carb source, and still have your bbq sauce, the calories are still removed. It is all relative.

Spinning of the wheels is never good. It is wasted time. However REALIZING you are spinning your wheels is important, and something that many people just don't have the ability to see when it comes to themselves, so they stay in this rut for FAR too log, which is detrimental for long term progress. The fact that you are objective enough to see it is a great thing as we often times can't be objective with ourselves(this is why even people who prep other people for shows might hire a prep guy of their own) Sometimes when it is yourself, you get "tunnel vision"

Just some random thoughts..haha

 

[houstontexas]

Awesome Bro, way to maintain, like I said, I'm just kinda doing my thing right now while I maintain through the Holidays, then I will truly give this LG with IF stuff a real go, but like you I will have to keep it very strict & measured out, I am really good at adhering to a plan, but it is when I don't have a plan that I start to stray the course and the next thing you know, I just wasted a few months spinning my wheels doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result (Insane in the Membrane)

That describes my dieting attempts too for the most part. I'm hoping this new start on LG will give me more freedom tho. So far so good.

 

[JudoJosh]

One thing I think that needs to be said is this. We have science, and we have results. There are people who strictly go by science, and get good results, and there are coach's who go more by experience, and get results.

I think sometimes people rely TOO much on science, which can hinder results. You have to remember someone like Martin has a nice he created, he HAS to prove his principles with studies, and science or no one would do them. But you can prove almost anything with science, and there is conflicting science. Just because he can find studies on WHY things SHOULD work, doesn't always mean they DO, or WILL, in every situation.

I wanted to respond to this part before in one of my post but forgot so I am now

I can some what agree with your statement here. I have been a long proponent of the stance that science is a forever changing and evolving thing. What is true today may be false tomorrow (and vice versa) but this is the beauty if science. Cheking the results yourself to see if something is true for you. The main problems with studies is the lack of human ones along with the funding of studies of certain ingredients by the very people who own the patent to said ingredient. Another problem is the fact that in order for something to be studied and evaluated, their needs to be a market or intereat for it. You get things like GDA ingredients that do have human studies and aren't funded but are only done on diabetics and not normoglycemic individuals (because thats what the market is) but you are correct, the human body is insanely complex with an unlimited number of variables that change from person to person and what works for someone wont for others which us why I have said before N=1 is all that really matters (unless you are a coach or PT) My problem is this shouldn't dismiss the information science has given us. If their is evidence that something SHOULD happen then you should at least entertain the idea and test it on yourself. I would say people limit their results more because they refuse to objectively think about something and rely on the bro-science of the gym and what ends up happening is a perpetuating of misinformation. Yes results matter, but we shouldn't relay solely on anecdotal evidence or just "results" as the placebo effect is real. The mind is very powerful and if you believe strongly enough that what you are doing is the right way and refuse to entertain any evidence saying otherwise because "it works for me" then that is extremely naive and will limit the amount of progress you are going to make IMO. Science can help us a lot with giving us a better understanding as to "why" and "how" things happen and shouldn't be dismissed just because someone refuses to accept the idea of what they are doing is wrong

(P.S. not saying this pertains to you Frank personally and not saying these are your beliefs but more in general to the community)

Ok rant over

I haven't seen it but I remember his logs from the past and he was already one big mofo, IIRC.

honestly I am not too sure on what his size was prior to the IA warrior variation but I would imagine he had already had a fair amount of size and strength to him. What I do know is that is time while on IAs diet is he continued to make strength and size gains but now that I think about it, I think the last time I spoke with him he mentioned some of your sentiments about the diet (more appropriate for maintaing gains rather than making gains) I think I remember him saying he was drifting more towards a Bekham and Keifer style of IF.

But that is irrelevant, as he is not me..haha. I have tried it. IA is what got me into IF in the first place. I did it his way for quite a while actually before making more of a switch to a LG style, and then kinda morphing into my own from there.

Did you consult with Wesley? Or. Base your diet off one of his books or just off some if his postings on it?

I have been If'ng for over a year now, and played with MANY protocols, and while I HAVE gained, and stayed in good shape, I am not sure I am maximized what I "could" do in actual mass gaining "mode". Could it be the 2% of my brain that is still believing conventional BB dogma, and that is what is leaning be back to something different? Maybe. But I feel I left some size on the table.

Dogma and our brains are a hell of a thing!

Also, what other varations of IF have you experimented with? You seem to be way more experienced with IF than I am (as I iny played around with Hoffmecklers and Wesleys versions and for less than a year)

A large portion of the fast is when I am sleeping, and I will fast until noon(now 1), before breaking it with a "small meal". "Typically" it is a 16hr fast/8hr feed in which one may have small meals(underfeeding), and a large meal(overfeeding)..

i have contemplated something sinilar myself. A somewhat combination if IAs and LGs diets. A 16hr fast with a 8hr eating window but within the 8hr window I will have 2-3 small IA under-eating style meals and then one big feast meal at the end. I would inagine this would work nicely but I havent pulled the trigger and tried it yet myself.

I am ALWAYS down to experiment. There are some variables however that are now eliminated, in which I might be better suited for one more crack at it.

That is a GREAT attitude to have!

One of my favorite quotes is:

All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better you become - Ralph Waldo Emerson

another good one I like is:

Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow.

&

To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.

Both also by Ralph Waldo Emerson

I may PM you for a quick refresher.

PM received

I will try and get back to you tonight after work or at least by sometime tomorrow in-between football games (Go GIANTS! )

P.S - please excuse what I am sure are tons of grammatical and spelling errors. I am on my phone at work and have been typing this in-between my down times here. I am sure it reads as a big rambling run-on

 

[Kevin James]

Thanks for the advice. I just started the reverse pyramid method and found it very enjoyable. What's everyone's cardio routine in this? I didn't see it mentioned on the site.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I wanted to respond to this part before in one of my post but forgot so I am now

I can some what agree with your statement here. I have been a long proponent of the stance that science is a forever changing and evolving thing. What is true today may be false tomorrow (and vice versa) but this is the beauty if science. Cheking the results yourself to see if something is true for you. The main problems with studies is the lack of human ones along with the funding of studies of certain ingredients by the very people who own the patent to said ingredient. Another problem is the fact that in order for something to be studied and evaluated, their needs to be a market or intereat for it. You get things like GDA ingredients that do have human studies and aren't funded but are only done on diabetics and not normoglycemic individuals (because thats what the market is) but you are correct, the human body is insanely complex with an unlimited number of variables that change from person to person and what works for someone wont for others which us why I have said before N=1 is all that really matters (unless you are a coach or PT) My problem is this shouldn't dismiss the information science has given us. If their is evidence that something SHOULD happen then you should at least entertain the idea and test it on yourself. I would say people limit their results more because they refuse to objectively think about something and rely on the bro-science of the gym and what ends up happening is a perpetuating of misinformation. Yes results matter, but we shouldn't relay solely on anecdotal evidence or just "results" as the placebo effect is real. The mind is very powerful and if you believe strongly enough that what you are doing is the right way and refuse to entertain any evidence saying otherwise because "it works for me" then that is extremely naive and will limit the amount of progress you are going to make IMO. Science can help us a lot with giving us a better understanding as to "why" and "how" things happen and shouldn't be dismissed just because someone refuses to accept the idea of what they are doing is wrong

(P.S. not saying this pertains to you Frank personally and not saying these are your beliefs but more in general to the community)

Ok rant over

Absolutely agree. I am VERY open minded, and that is why I am willing to experiment on myself. The only times I will write things off if there is a low "risk vs reward" ratio, or it just seems really absurd to me..lol Often times people think "this is the ONLY way" Well it isn't.lol

You could write someone a diet which in YOUR mind could be awesome, they could be getting amazing results, enter "random gym guy" who asks them about their diet and when he hears it tells them "that is dumb brah you gotta do this and that bla bla. You can't eat this or that"...

Or same scenario, enter "science guy" and he starts picking the diet apart based on various studies...

Mean while the person is making great gains, sticking to the diet, happy, etc. It is comical to me. Any nutritional program isn't worth **** if someone can't follow it. It also is nothing without results.

Elite level, go to a pro stage, ask 5 guys what they ate to get here, and you will likely get 5 answers. Who is right, and who is wrong?

My one gripe is some of these "science guys" just don't pack the physique relative to their ego's. Now for someone that is a legitimate Dr, or say nutritionist/prep coach and may not be in the iron game themselves but is getting people big, in shape, to their goals, etc.. That is proof, it gives them some credibility. But there are some people who are lifting every day, doing everything in relation to SCIENCE, and studies yet have not built a respectable physique, nor have any credentials of doing it with others, yet will argue with people all day, try to put others down, CLINGING to science.. I am not saying they should look like an elite level BB'er, as genetics, gear, etc will untimely dictate that, but you should at least LOOK like you work out..lol

I put myself somewhere in the middle. I LOVE the science of it, but at the same time it needs to be balanced with results.

Did you consult with Wesley? Or. Base your diet off one of his books or just off some if his postings on it?

I actually did work with Wes WAAAY back before the warrior days. However with my run with the warrior diet I pieced it together from the board, etc. I don't even think his book was out yet.heh

As for variations. I did Wes' by "the book", I then transitioned to LG "by the book", I ran both for pretty good stretches of time. Once I felt comfortable I then I started to implement various traditional nutritional approaches I have had good results with over the years INTO IF. Some things like timed carb, a carb cycle(ala Shelby Starnes), refeeds, no refeeds, lower fat/higher carb, etc. I played with fasting times, number of meals, etc.

With that I kind of developed my own style, implementing things I found to work better for ME, and for certain situations. With that I have used it successfully on others.

We are only fed so much from these "gurus" as at the end of they day they still want to sell "consultations", so the meat and potatoes is kind of left up to the end user IMO. Again, they need to create a niche or their is nothing to set them apart from the sea of people. It is all really very minuscule in the grand scheme of things.

I mean I can come out with the Frank diet, where you fast for exactly 12.5hrs break fast with exactly 4oz of coconut m&m's(has to be coconut, then insert study of coconuts..lol), and then you eat XXX macros/calories, and as long that XXX part is on point, the rest is irrelevant, and people will make gains, and go "omg Frank your diet is awesome, and I get to eat M&M's!!!".lol

 

[houstontexas]

I like m&m candies... When is your book coming out?

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I like m&m candies... When is your book coming out?

Pay pal me and I'll send you a super secret advanced copy.lol

 

[ssbackwards]

I wanted to respond to this part before in one of my post but forgot so I am now

I can some what agree with your statement here. I have been a long proponent of the stance that science is a forever changing and evolving thing. What is true today may be false tomorrow (and vice versa) but this is the beauty if science. Cheking the results yourself to see if something is true for you. The main problems with studies is the lack of human ones along with the funding of studies of certain ingredients by the very people who own the patent to said ingredient. Another problem is the fact that in order for something to be studied and evaluated, their needs to be a market or intereat for it. You get things like GDA ingredients that do have human studies and aren't funded but are only done on diabetics and not normoglycemic individuals (because thats what the market is) but you are correct, the human body is insanely complex with an unlimited number of variables that change from person to person and what works for someone wont for others which us why I have said before N=1 is all that really matters (unless you are a coach or PT) My problem is this shouldn't dismiss the information science has given us. If their is evidence that something SHOULD happen then you should at least entertain the idea and test it on yourself. I would say people limit their results more because they refuse to objectively think about something and rely on the bro-science of the gym and what ends up happening is a perpetuating of misinformation. Yes results matter, but we shouldn't relay solely on anecdotal evidence or just "results" as the placebo effect is real. The mind is very powerful and if you believe strongly enough that what you are doing is the right way and refuse to entertain any evidence saying otherwise because "it works for me" then that is extremely naive and will limit the amount of progress you are going to make IMO. Science can help us a lot with giving us a better understanding as to "why" and "how" things happen and shouldn't be dismissed just because someone refuses to accept the idea of what they are doing is wrong

(P.S. not saying this pertains to you Frank personally and not saying these are your beliefs but more in general to the community)

Ok rant over



honestly I am not too sure on what his size was prior to the IA warrior variation but I would imagine he had already had a fair amount of size and strength to him. What I do know is that is time while on IAs diet is he continued to make strength and size gains but now that I think about it, I think the last time I spoke with him he mentioned some of your sentiments about the diet (more appropriate for maintaing gains rather than making gains) I think I remember him saying he was drifting more towards a Bekham and Keifer style of IF.



Did you consult with Wesley? Or. Base your diet off one of his books or just off some if his postings on it?



Dogma and our brains are a hell of a thing!

Also, what other varations of IF have you experimented with? You seem to be way more experienced with IF than I am (as I iny played around with Hoffmecklers and Wesleys versions and for less than a year)




i have contemplated something sinilar myself. A somewhat combination if IAs and LGs diets. A 16hr fast with a 8hr eating window but within the 8hr window I will have 2-3 small IA under-eating style meals and then one big feast meal at the end. I would inagine this would work nicely but I havent pulled the trigger and tried it yet myself.



That is a GREAT attitude to have!

One of my favorite quotes is:

All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better you become - Ralph Waldo Emerson

another good one I like is:

Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow.

&

To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment.

Both also by Ralph Waldo Emerson



PM received

I will try and get back to you tonight after work or at least by sometime tomorrow in-between football games (Go GIANTS! )

P.S - please excuse what I am sure are tons of grammatical and spelling errors. I am on my phone at work and have been typing this in-between my down times here. I am sure it reads as a big rambling run-on

giants n steelers my dude!

 

[ssbackwards]

update on topical with the aromasin and clen.

WINNING!

see a difference in 2 days!!!! much drier a little more vascular. and its been 2 ****ing days.

 

[JudoJosh]

giants n steelers my dude!

Atta boy! My son is a steelers fan..

I live in south Jersey (right outside of philly) and am surrounded by Eagles groupies. Im loving this season so far!! Pretty much everyone at my job hates me.. Past couple weeks I just have been walking into work saying "So much for that dream team huh?".. Got Green Bay tomorrow.. Need this win man..

 

[ssbackwards]

Atta boy! My son is a steelers fan..

I live in south Jersey (right outside of philly) and am surrounded by Eagles groupies. Im loving this season so far!! Pretty much everyone at my job hates me.. Past couple weeks I just have been walking into work saying "So much for that dream team huh?".. Got Green Bay tomorrow.. Need this win man..

hahah thats awesome!!!!

im just worried about the steelers consistency. ****ing guys need to get it together they in the play offs they gotta fcukin dial in that communication

 

[JudoJosh]

update on topical with the aromasin and clen.

WINNING!

see a difference in 2 days!!!! much drier a little more vascular. and its been 2 ****ing days.

Damn really?

So to recap it was:

Eversciate
Clen
Aromasin
Adipose Annihilation caps

Anything else?

 

[ssbackwards]

Damn really?

So to recap it was:

Eversciate
Clen
Aromasin
Adipose Annihilation caps

Anything else?

NO infuse, and a little bit of absolution plus.

 

[JudoJosh]

NO infuse, and a little bit of absolution plus.

Is the absolution for the aminophylline? I was looking at celluthin at one time (also contains aminophylline) based off Tim Ferriss but wasnt sure if it was B.S or not. Good to know

 

[ssbackwards]

Is the absolution for the aminophylline? I was looking at celluthin at one time (also contains aminophylline) based off Tim Ferriss but wasnt sure if it was B.S or not. Good to know

for usnic and aminophylline.

its working. thing with the usnic dose isnt to high therefor no discoleration of the product or skin staining. actually can be used on the skin to promote healing (usnic)

aminophylline as per dan duchaine is great.

Get yourself some NP bulk powder of RK, and yohimbine. add it to it, then add it all to eviscerate with clen and aromasin. no infused i used to bring bloodflow to the area (bc its nitric oxide related) to enhance fat burning further, and aromasin, well we know why.

 

[ssbackwards]

new dietary plan for myself....

3200 cals 210 fat 340 protein 30 carb MWF 9600
2800 cals 150 fat 30 carb 330ish protein T/TH/SUN 8400
2400 cals 110 fat 30 carb 330ish protein. 2400

Total calorie intake for the week 20,400 cals minus my maintence for the week 16,800= 3600 surplus for the week.

In theory i should put on a pound a week for atleast 4 weeks. should all be LEAN tissue considering dietary strategy, and macronutrient content. i wouldnt be surprised if i put NOTHING on either. we shall see.

MWF workouts are 1.3 mile run, then lift, then another 1.3 mile run

Tues/thurs are 10-14 rounds of kickboxing/boxing.

Saturday is an off day

Sunday is just a 20-30 minute run.

given this, i should be able to stay very lean.

doing a 2/12 fast, 2 meals 10-12 hours apart, fasted training. i will start on monday, but this week may be off due to refeed day of my tattoo. either way, that **** incinerate calories escpecially when being done for 5 hours.

 

[ssbackwards]

for usnic and aminophylline.

its working. thing with the usnic dose isnt to high therefor no discoleration of the product or skin staining. actually can be used on the skin to promote healing (usnic)

aminophylline as per dan duchaine is great.

Get yourself some NP bulk powder of RK, and yohimbine. add it to it, then add it all to eviscerate with clen and aromasin. no infused i used to bring bloodflow to the area (bc its nitric oxide related) to enhance fat burning further, and aromasin, well we know why.

edit.... added some 7 keto in last night 150mg. just because i wanted to.

 

[ssbackwards]

new dietary plan for myself....

3200 cals 210 fat 340 protein 30 carb MWF 9600
2800 cals 150 fat 30 carb 330ish protein T/TH/SUN 8400
2400 cals 110 fat 30 carb 330ish protein. 2400

Total calorie intake for the week 20,400 cals minus my maintence for the week 16,800= 3600 surplus for the week.

In theory i should put on a pound a week for atleast 4 weeks. should all be LEAN tissue considering dietary strategy, and macronutrient content. i wouldnt be surprised if i put NOTHING on either. we shall see.

MWF workouts are 1.3 mile run, then lift, then another 1.3 mile run

Tues/thurs are 10-14 rounds of kickboxing/boxing.

Saturday is an off day

Sunday is just a 20-30 minute run.

given this, i should be able to stay very lean.

doing a 2/12 fast, 2 meals 10-12 hours apart, fasted training. i will start on monday, but this week may be off due to refeed day of my tattoo. either way, that **** incinerate calories escpecially when being done for 5 hours.

forgot to subtract calories from my workouts while doing this. in theory i need to increase my calories another 300 per day except saturday to gain that 1 lb a week.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Good luck man. Let us know how your are progressing.

 

[thsearfoss]

I'm going to start a new plan. Grandpa's meal plan ha! Rise with the sun, decent breakfast, work like mad a**, decent lunch, work some more, FEAST on dinner, pick at leftovers after happy days. FULL nights rest...repeat. I read an article about how even when people over ate back then it wasn't as much a concern because most foods were whole foods and healthy for you. Not sure about anyone else but both of my grandpas always had that mystical "old man strength". Kind of made me realize that whole foods are a must for building a strong healthy body, not pounds of protein powder. I used to be one of those people who relies too heavily on powders....Man, those flash labels really do work

My goal: old man strength, young mans body

 

[redrobe]

I'm going to start a new plan. Grandpa's meal plan ha! Rise with the sun, decent breakfast, work like mad a**, decent lunch, work some more, FEAST on dinner, pick at leftovers after happy days. FULL nights rest...repeat. I read an article about how even when people over ate back then it wasn't as much a concern because most foods were whole foods and healthy for you. Not sure about anyone else but both of my grandpas always had that mystical "old man strength". Kind of made me realize that whole foods are a must for building a strong healthy body, not pounds of protein powder. I used to be one of those people who relies too heavily on powders....Man, those flash labels really do work

My goal: old man strength, young mans body

Yep, my gramps was in amazing shape and I assure you he barely knows what protein, carbs, and fat are. He just worked his ass off from sunrise to sundown everyday in the army, coal mine, or steel mill, and then ate huge meals.

For the first time in my life I beat him in arm wrestling this year. I'm 30, he's 84.

 

[houstontexas]

LOL that reminds me of my Grandpa who always does the handshake squeeze when I see him. Up until the last few years he would always make me feel like such a weakling... Now that I can beat him I don't even feel any better b/c he's older and in worse shape than ever with heart problems etc. It reminds me of that Chappelle show where he kicks that kids ass with cancer in a video game then rubs it in his face. Friggin hilarious!!

 

[RickRock13]

As I reach the end of my cycle, I can honestly say that you can definitely successfully bulk on lean gains. I have gained around 11-12 lbs and only about 1-1.5% bodyfat. I started at 8% at 165, and now I am 9.5%ish at 176. I'm sure some weight (water) will drop in PCT, but overall pretty successful. A traditional bulk will yield more weight but also more fat. Just thought I would throw this info out there for those interested. Lean gains/IF can be tailored to any goal

 

[Frank Reynolds]

As I reach the end of my cycle, I can honestly say that you can definitely successfully bulk on lean gains. I have gained around 11-12 lbs and only about 1-1.5% bodyfat. I started at 8% at 165, and now I am 9.5%ish at 176. I'm sure some weight (water) will drop in PCT, but overall pretty successful. A traditional bulk will yield more weight but also more fat. Just thought I would throw this info out there for those interested. Lean gains/IF can be tailored to any goal

Ok but will it get you to 225? Have you ever been at that weight before? The bigger you get, and closer/over your genetic limit, the more the little things seem to matter.

I don't think I questioned if you can add muscle, as I have added a good deal of muscle myself over the last year(if I didn't/wasn't I would not have been doing IF for this long, spinning my wheels..lol). The question is to what degree is something like this optimal/effective?

For instance a noob to lifting can make good gains typically with no detail at all. Just eat more, go in the gym and move weights around, etc. An intermediate might need to really start to dial things in, to make gains. The more advanced trainee, might need to exploit everything he can do to make gains.

What got you from 130-160 may not get you from 160-180, and so on, and so on.

Is this leaving mass on the table? That is what I sometimes wonder.

 

[houstontexas]

I'm curious if anyone has experienced heartburn during the fast? I've had a slight case of it the entire morning and it's quite annoying. I took some tums but they haven't done much for me.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I'm curious if anyone has experienced heartburn during the fast? I've had a slight case of it the entire morning and it's quite annoying. I took some tums but they haven't done much for me.

No.

Did you eat something yesterday that may not have agreed with you? Any supps this morning? Drink this weekend?

 

[ssbackwards]

I'm curious if anyone has experienced heartburn during the fast? I've had a slight case of it the entire morning and it's quite annoying. I took some tums but they haven't done much for me.

i used to. cinnamon in my coffee helped

 

[houstontexas]

No.

Did you eat something yesterday that may not have agreed with you? Any supps this morning? Drink this weekend?

Quite a few supplements actually. I have taken them other days and not had the problem tho but I've only been IF'ing for less than a week so possibly some sort of build up. The IF really throws off my normal supplement routine.
This morning I had: 2 caps oep, 1 shift, 1 AT2, 1 halodrol, 3 11-oxo, 4 oximega fish oils, tons of bcaa/water throughout the morning. I'm probably going to die...

 

[RickRock13]

Ok but will it get you to 225? Have you ever been at that weight before? The bigger you get, and closer/over your genetic limit, the more the little things seem to matter.

I don't think I questioned if you can add muscle, as I have added a good deal of muscle myself over the last year(if I didn't/wasn't I would not have been doing IF for this long, spinning my wheels..lol). The question is to what degree is something like this optimal/effective?

For instance a noob to lifting can make good gains typically with no detail at all. Just eat more, go in the gym and move weights around, etc. An intermediate might need to really start to dial things in, to make gains. The more advanced trainee, might need to exploit everything he can do to make gains.

What got you from 130-160 may not get you from 160-180, and so on, and so on.

Is this leaving mass on the table? That is what I sometimes wonder.

I agree with you 100% Frank. As you build more its very hard to get the same gains that you did when you started....even on cycle. I started back at the gym a little over 2 1/2 years ago after being out of it for several years. It was easy to make some nice gains at first with just food, protein and creatine. I was about 150 and "skinny fat" which I would guess I was around 17-18% bodyfat. I still feel like I am a light guy, but I've come a long way in a couple years and the gains are getting harder even with everything I'm throwing at it....but they are still coming, just slow and steady. I'm content with that as long as I can stay lean in the process. I'm sure that I won't ever be 200 and 6% bodyfat, but I'm going to give it hell trying!! As to what degree IF is effective in a bulk its hard to say. If I were to do it all over again I would probably do some adjusting like a longer feeding window on build days with more like a 14/10 split or even a 12/12

 

[houstontexas]

Also nothing out of the ordinary ursday for food. Burn day with some pork, chicken, and protein powder mostly.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Quite a few supplements actually. I have taken them other days and not had the problem tho but I've only been IF'ing for less than a week so possibly some sort of build up. The IF really throws off my normal supplement routine.
This morning I had: 2 caps oep, 1 shift, 1 AT2, 1 halodrol, 3 11-oxo, 4 oximega fish oils, tons of bcaa/water throughout the morning. I'm probably going to die...

Hard to say man. Any of those things could potentially cause heartburn on an empty stomach, for that long.

I agree with you 100% Frank. As you build more its very hard to get the same gains that you did when you started....even on cycle. I started back at the gym a little over 2 1/2 years ago after being out of it for several years. It was easy to make some nice gains at first with just food, protein and creatine. I was about 150 and "skinny fat" which I would guess I was around 17-18% bodyfat. I still feel like I am a light guy, but I've come a long way in a couple years and the gains are getting harder even with everything I'm throwing at it....but they are still coming, just slow and steady. I'm content with that as long as I can stay lean in the process. I'm sure that I won't ever be 200 and 6% bodyfat, but I'm going to give it hell trying!! As to what degree IF is effective in a bulk its hard to say. If I were to do it all over again I would probably do some adjusting like a longer feeding window on build days with more like a 14/10 split or even a 12/12

Good post!

That is kind of what I am driving at when you reference possible adaptations. And this is where I am starting to think 4 meals may be a good middle ground. If I stop eating at 9pm, and eat again at 9am, that is 12/12 I typically get up at 7 or so, so maybe a small peptopro/bcaa feeding then, then 2hrs later meal, then a meal every 4-5 hrs after that for 4 total a day.

 

[thsearfoss]

Most likely a build up of stomach acid due to it being completely empty.