The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

Frank Reynolds said:
When I wake up tomorrow, I am going to be killing some banana pancakes topped with:
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Damn that sure looks good, have you ever tried Nutella?

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ScottyDoc said:
I second that notion Frank!!! Recipe???
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i did it by eye.

whole gram honey gram crackers made into crumbs

whole wheat or regular flour

coconut oil

crushed oreos

vanilla almond milk

brown sugar

baking powder.

eggs


coconut oils a must keeeps pancake from being dry
 
healthy nutella spread.

Cacao Nibs, hazelnuts... equal servings of each put into food processor

stevia extract, 82-164mg.

if daring add vanilla extract.

BOOM healthly, low carb high fiber good fats
 
New to this forum. I the lean gains book out yet?
 
wesg49 said:
I love LG been getting great results and only 4 weeks in. I currently am taking dexaprine which works numbers for energy and appetite. I currently have 2 bottles of anabeta. Can I go ahead and add them?
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Not to highjack, but what's your phenotype?
 
Anybody who uses RecoverPro (BCAA 4:1:1) from AI Sports...they have the "WHITEFRIDAY" 50% off sale going on! Just picked up a big ol tub for half price...go get some!
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Hey guys check the Promo Endosurge is on its way back and we are giving 10 of them and 10 Combustion away. You can definitely make fasting a little easier with that.

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fight night guys!!

eating right after weigh in!

goina be a blast, ill try and get a video up for everyone if someone records.
 
ssbackwards said:
fight night guys!!

eating right after weigh in!

goina be a blast, ill try and get a video up for everyone if someone records.
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Good luck bro. Kick some ass! If you can get your hands on a video that would be sweet!
 
Well... Did U get arrested for murder because U kicked his a$$ so bad that his girlfriend died?
 
Curious to hear if there is a reason for this:

Naturally, I'm very warm blooded. Like unusually warm all the time. Practically a furnace. But after I lift and break my fast, I start freezing about 8 minutes into eating. Just curious to hear why and I'd anyone else has experienced this


Jim
 
In for
Knowledge
 
This is a very common. It's because when you eat, blood is rushed to your stomach and other vital areas that aid in the digestion process. Blood is therefore being pulled away from other areas of your body resulting in the cold feeling. That is why after digestion starts to slow back down you start to warm back up. You also sometimes feel hotter a little while after eating due to the blood pumping equally back into all parts of the body. That and your metabolism just received a whole boat load of fuel. Also, when you work out, your core is much warmer and therefore blood is pumped to the extremities where most of the muscle activity is taking place. When all that warm blood leaves it can get might chilly
 
mxer657 said:
Curious to hear if there is a reason for this:

Naturally, I'm very warm blooded. Like unusually warm all the time. Practically a furnace. But after I lift and break my fast, I start freezing about 8 minutes into eating. Just curious to hear why and I'd anyone else has experienced this


Jim
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wierd i get real hot when i eat/right after lol
 
RickRock13 said:
Good luck bro. Kick some ass! If you can get your hands on a video that would be sweet!
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went all 3

lost decision.

not happy with my performance but there were factors limiting my training (ie broken thumb, and no sparring for 4 weeks leading to fight, and 15 lb weigh cut day before)). I decided to do it anyway bc i knew if i didnt do it, then i would never have gone through with it.

I kept things leading up to the fight the same except meal.. i at 4 hours before fight. i usually always train fasted. i took my 50mg ephedrine at 3 15pm and went on at 8. not sure if that effected my cardio but i was dead after round one. Wasnt nervous.

Will definetly do again. I already told the kid i want a rematch bc i know i can perform better. so hopefully ill let my thumb continue to heal for a couple weeks, put on a few pounds of muscle, eat, and then get back to training.

Thanks for all you who wished me luck, and i wish i wouldve came back with better news
 
ssbackwards said:
went all 3

lost decision.

not happy with my performance but there were factors limiting my training (ie broken thumb, and no sparring for 4 weeks leading to fight, and 15 lb weigh cut day before)). I decided to do it anyway bc i knew if i didnt do it, then i would never have gone through with it.

I kept things leading up to the fight the same except meal.. i at 4 hours before fight. i usually always train fasted. i took my 50mg ephedrine at 3 15pm and went on at 8. not sure if that effected my cardio but i was dead after round one. Wasnt nervous.

Will definetly do again. I already told the kid i want a rematch bc i know i can perform better. so hopefully ill let my thumb continue to heal for a couple weeks, put on a few pounds of muscle, eat, and then get back to training.

Thanks for all you who wished me luck, and i wish i wouldve came back with better news
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Sounds like you put forth great effort man if you went the distance. That is a great job bro. After the big cut, and being gassed after a round that is pretty damn good to take it to decision. As long as you gave it your all at the time, that's all you can do. Great job!
 
RickRock13 said:
Sounds like you put forth great effort man if you went the distance. That is a great job bro. After the big cut, and being gassed after a round that is pretty damn good to take it to decision. As long as you gave it your all at the time, that's all you can do. Great job!
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i second that bro...good work, kick his ass next time haha! use it as motivation!
 
Awesome work bro. That is a lot of adversity to overcome and still perform. I recall a few time cutting serious weight before wrestling matches, and just being absolutely drained. Go give him hell next time around!!
 
ssbackwards said:
went all 3

lost decision.

not happy with my performance but there were factors limiting my training (ie broken thumb, and no sparring for 4 weeks leading to fight, and 15 lb weigh cut day before)). I decided to do it anyway bc i knew if i didnt do it, then i would never have gone through with it.

I kept things leading up to the fight the same except meal.. i at 4 hours before fight. i usually always train fasted. i took my 50mg ephedrine at 3 15pm and went on at 8. not sure if that effected my cardio but i was dead after round one. Wasnt nervous.

Will definetly do again. I already told the kid i want a rematch bc i know i can perform better. so hopefully ill let my thumb continue to heal for a couple weeks, put on a few pounds of muscle, eat, and then get back to training.

Thanks for all you who wished me luck, and i wish i wouldve came back with better news
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Sorry to hear about the Loss Bro, all I can say is Chalk it up to experience, learn and grow from this and it will only make you better, faster, stronger next go around! Way to put in 110% into it with all the adversities against you my friend!

 
thanks guys, back on the grind with weights for a couple months.

going to continue with cardio and bag work.

stop the t3, and ephedrine, do a lil t3 PCT of my own. and put on some muscle, but keeping it light first few weeks.

eating 3x a day now. instead of 1 or 2. try and get back to 195-200.
 
So im thinking of switching over to lean gains, my sleep schedule is super messed up due to college, partying, etc. I usually don't wake up until like 2-4 pm, which is kind of rediculous and gonna start trying to wake up by 12. So if I woke up at 12 and trained at 1, I'd take BCAA's pre post workout and then break my fast at around 4pm? eat until midnight, then rinse repeat?

Around 3000-3400 cals bulk days, 2000-2400 burn days? Would 2 burn days and 1 rest day a week be ok? Mon-Thurs lift, Fri-Sat cardio, and Sunday - rest.

This seems like a good method to finally reveal my abs, since im around 13% and really want to get down to 7-8% without losing my muscle while doing it.

Am I missing anything?
 
masonmarin18 said:
So im thinking of switching over to lean gains, my sleep schedule is super messed up due to college, partying, etc. I usually don't wake up until like 2-4 pm, which is kind of rediculous and gonna start trying to wake up by 12. So if I woke up at 12 and trained at 1, I'd take BCAA's pre post workout and then break my fast at around 4pm? eat until midnight, then rinse repeat?

Around 3000-3400 cals bulk days, 2000-2400 burn days? Would 2 burn days and 1 rest day a week be ok? Mon-Thurs lift, Fri-Sat cardio, and Sunday - rest.

This seems like a good method to finally reveal my abs, since im around 13% and really want to get down to 7-8% without losing my muscle while doing it.

Am I missing anything?
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I'm in the same boat with you with college and partying. I tend to get up at 12, and lift around 2 or 3. I'll take BCAA's when I get up and sip on 20grams during workout. I immediately have huge meal PWO which spikes all of your levels and is preferable. I'll eat until 9-10. This makes for a longer fasting period plus it's easy as **** to maintain. I'm eating the same as you 3000-3500 on w/o days. But honestly, I've gone into bulk mode while on this diet and workout 6 times a week. Still maintaining BF levels and have gained 6 lbs in 3 weeks.


Thought the picture was of you and then realized its Zyzz. Lol. Good luck man
 
mxer657 said:
I'm in the same boat with you with college and partying. I tend to get up at 12, and lift around 2 or 3. I'll take BCAA's when I get up and sip on 20grams during workout. I immediately have huge meal PWO which spikes all of your levels and is preferable. I'll eat until 9-10. This makes for a longer fasting period plus it's easy as **** to maintain. I'm eating the same as you 3000-3500 on w/o days. But honestly, I've gone into bulk mode while on this diet and workout 6 times a week. Still maintaining BF levels and have gained 6 lbs in 3 weeks.


Thought the picture was of you and then realized its Zyzz. Lol. Good luck man
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So are you partying, or fasting? lol Doesn't seem you can do both, unless you are poppin pillz and drinking water..haha
 
Frank Reynolds said:
So are you partying, or fasting? lol Doesn't seem you can do both, unless you are poppin pillz and drinking water..haha
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fast 5 days a week and part 2 nights a week. When I drink, it's straight vodka and crystal light lemonade. I also follow lean gains guide to drinking alcohol loosely.
 
FINAFLEX Trivia is NOW...

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mxer657 said:
I'm in the same boat with you with college and partying. I tend to get up at 12, and lift around 2 or 3. I'll take BCAA's when I get up and sip on 20grams during workout. I immediately have huge meal PWO which spikes all of your levels and is preferable. I'll eat until 9-10. This makes for a longer fasting period plus it's easy as **** to maintain. I'm eating the same as you 3000-3500 on w/o days. But honestly, I've gone into bulk mode while on this diet and workout 6 times a week. Still maintaining BF levels and have gained 6 lbs in 3 weeks.


Thought the picture was of you and then realized its Zyzz. Lol. Good luck man
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Damn bro, 6 lbs in 3 weeks, good work, I can put on weight fast too but I want to start keeping it as lean as possible. Do you, or any of the other guys here think it will be ok to have 2 burn days in a row, or should i mix them in like 1 on wednesday 1 on saturday. So your post workout meal is probably around 800 cals yeah?

Yeah, the current picture is of zyzz, soon to be me. :D (probably not as soon as i'd like, haha)
 
masonmarin18 said:
Damn bro, 6 lbs in 3 weeks, good work, I can put on weight fast too but I want to start keeping it as lean as possible. Do you, or any of the other guys here think it will be ok to have 2 burn days in a row, or should i mix them in like 1 on wednesday 1 on saturday. So your post workout meal is probably around 800 cals yeah?

Yeah, the current picture is of zyzz, soon to be me. :D (probably not as soon as i'd like, haha)
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My pwo is at minimum 1500 cals. I try to take in at least 50% of daily cal intake on my fast break.

As far as burn days, not sure if it's the best, but I've gone 2 burn days in a row but personally, I love being in the gym so that kills me.


Haha I can't wait to have a physique like him
 
mxer657 said:
My pwo is at minimum 1500 cals. I try to take in at least 50% of daily cal intake on my fast break.

As far as burn days, not sure if it's the best, but I've gone 2 burn days in a row but personally, I love being in the gym so that kills me.


Haha I can't wait to have a physique like him
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Well you can do burn days in the gym, its just cardio :D. Haha, I get you, all I want to do is lift as well, but gotta make sure I get the proper rest.
 
masonmarin18 said:
Well you can do burn days in the gym, its just cardio :D. Haha, I get you, all I want to do is lift as well, but gotta make sure I get the proper rest.
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Eh you really shouldn't be doing that much cardio at all on burn days since you are already eating at a calorie deficit. Anything you burn will make the deficit too large and you'll just burn muscle(assuming you're eating correctly) or you'll just have to eat the calories you burn. Kind of pointless unless you are in a mad rush to shed the lbs. And if you are, well you're going to lose a little muscle with it. Most people don't add in cardio on burn days until they've hit plateau with dropping calories 100 per per week each plateau. And even then, I think most of us ramp up the cardio. I'm pretty sure the rule of thumb is stay under 45 minutes for sure...


Just my $0.02 after being on this for a while successfully. Not hating on you, just trying to help you man
 
I always do low intensity cardio on my off/burn days. But it is relative to the rest of your program. I would say start with a couple 30 min sessions a week, and adjust from there as needed based on results. I like "most" of my fat loss to come through diet, but if I didn't do cardio, I would just not be able to get lean.
 
mxer657 said:
Eh you really shouldn't be doing that much cardio at all on burn days since you are already eating at a calorie deficit. Anything you burn will make the deficit too large and you'll just burn muscle(assuming you're eating correctly) or you'll just have to eat the calories you burn. Kind of pointless unless you are in a mad rush to shed the lbs. And if you are, well you're going to lose a little muscle with it. Most people don't add in cardio on burn days until they've hit plateau with dropping calories 100 per per week each plateau. And even then, I think most of us ramp up the cardio. I'm pretty sure the rule of thumb is stay under 45 minutes for sure...

Just my $0.02 after being on this for a while successfully. Not hating on you, just trying to help you man
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Yeah well I wasn't planning on a huge deficit, I love to eat so it'd probably be easier for me to do some cardio, so I could eat some more lol. Then I don't know how many cals my body burns a day without exercise, so im not sure how much to take in, do you count your cals? I've never counted my cals before I kind of just eat alot of smaller meals throughout the day so I don't get hungry and don't get full. I've just a fan of rickrock's logs and he shredded up with cardio, I guess I need to figure out how many cals to eat without training to find a good deficit, and how much should this deficit be? Plus a little cardio is healthy for the heart:D.

And yeah I know your not hating haha, im here to learn more about lean gains so I can hopefully start it properly soon. Thanks for your input.
 
masonmarin18 said:
Yeah well I wasn't planning on a huge deficit, I love to eat so it'd probably be easier for me to do some cardio, so I could eat some more lol. Then I don't know how many cals my body burns a day without exercise, so im not sure how much to take in, do you count your cals? I've never counted my cals before I kind of just eat alot of smaller meals throughout the day so I don't get hungry and don't get full. I've just a fan of rickrock's logs and he shredded up with cardio, I guess I need to figure out how many cals to eat without training to find a good deficit, and how much should this deficit be? Plus a little cardio is healthy for the heart:D.

And yeah I know your not hating haha, im here to learn more about lean gains so I can hopefully start it properly soon. Thanks for your input.
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I counted religiously for 3 weeks when I started. I knew I ate healthy, I just didn't know how much of what. Just use MyFitnessPal on the iphone app and log it. You'll quickly learn so that you won't need to use it anymore. It also counts your macros for you and vitamins and **** which is a plus. Deficits are different for everyone. First calculate you daily calorie burn. There are few calculators out there (some in this thread). I used one on BB.com. It seemed pretty accurate. Back to deficits: different for everyone. If you're lifting 3 days a week, and burning 4, the bigger the range, the higher your weekly deficit will be----->lose more weight quicker. I used 20% +/-. Worked well for me. It's best not to keep weight loss in the range of 1-2 lbs per week for optimal muscle retention.


Hopefully that covers anything. I feel like I could write a damn book about this by now. Maybe a $7 ebook to pay for all my supps. Hahaha
 
mxer657 said:
I counted religiously for 3 weeks when I started. I knew I ate healthy, I just didn't know how much of what. Just use MyFitnessPal on the iphone app and log it. You'll quickly learn so that you won't need to use it anymore. It also counts your macros for you and vitamins and **** which is a plus. Deficits are different for everyone. First calculate you daily calorie burn. There are few calculators out there (some in this thread). I used one on BB.com. It seemed pretty accurate. Back to deficits: different for everyone. If you're lifting 3 days a week, and burning 4, the bigger the range, the higher your weekly deficit will be----->lose more weight quicker. I used 20% +/-. Worked well for me. It's best not to keep weight loss in the range of 1-2 lbs per week for optimal muscle retention.


Hopefully that covers anything. I feel like I could write a damn book about this by now. Maybe a $7 ebook to pay for all my supps. Hahaha
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Haha good stuff man, good luck with your goals, thanks for the help i'll look into those apps/calorie calculators. Hopefully I can get that app on my itouch since I don't have an iphone, i'll have to check it out, thanks.
 
Been on LG for 8 weeks and have went from 199 to 183. Cuts are coming in fast. I did a Mdrol/teen cycle in sept and got big and bloated. My shirt were filled out and I was known as the big guy. Now 8 weeks into LG I have been told twice I'm shrinking. Obviously with a shirt off I look way more cut and vascular but judging me with a shirt on of course the bloat is gone and I look skinnier. It just sucks hearing wow u have shrank. It's a ****ty feeling when people say that because I have lost lots of bodyfat with LG. I guess bloated filling out shirts is the way to go lol
 
I would love to hear peoples thoughts on IF for a straight up BULK, for someone looking to get big. I mean as much as I love IF, and would hate to abandon this life style, I have something in the back of my head afraid to use it this off season to really GROW. Maybe it is typically BB dogma getting the best of me, but I have yet to see anyone who is MASSIVE employ this, or get there doing this. I would say the majority of me says because it is too new a concept and most big dudes, or people looking to get extremely large would have thoughts against it, but there is the part of me that wonders if it is infact less then optimal for mass gains.

Thoughts?
 
I know we try an avoid most sugars....

But if you do consume what would be a reasonable amount?
 
Frank Reynolds said:
I would love to hear peoples thoughts on IF for a straight up BULK, for someone looking to get big. I mean as much as I love IF, and would hate to abandon this life style, I have something in the back of my head afraid to use it this off season to really GROW. Maybe it is typically BB dogma getting the best of me, but I have yet to see anyone who is MASSIVE employ this, or get there doing this. I would say the majority of me says because it is too new a concept and most big dudes, or people looking to get extremely large would have thoughts against it, but there is the part of me that wonders if it is infact less then optimal for mass gains.

Thoughts?
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It would work if you were eating enough to grow, IMO. It would mean eating more during your 8-hour feeding window - which shouldn't really be a problem, but if you have issues eating big, then you could always work up to it. I managed to gain all the muscle mass I lost from not being able to train (or when training, train properly, or as I wanted) from my wrist injury, and then some, but I also leaned out as well - and all on ~4,300 calories a day using my own modification of the Lean Gains protocol. I'm not huge by any means, but muscle mass can be gained using this nutritional method - it would just mean a little experimentation on your part to figure out just what and when is the best time to eat for YOU re gains.


AaronJP1 said:
I know we try an avoid most sugars....

But if you do consume what would be a reasonable amount?
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I'm not most people and can have >400g of carbohydrates (mostly sugar a lot of the time) in a single sitting. That said, it's more of an individual thing, IMO, since what works for one person is not always going to work for another, and it's all about finding what works best for YOU.

~Rosie~
 
Rosie Chee Scott said:
It would work if you were eating enough to grow, IMO. It would mean eating more during your 8-hour feeding window - which shouldn't really be a problem, but if you have issues eating big, then you could always work up to it. I managed to gain all the muscle mass I lost from not being able to train (or when training, train properly, or as I wanted) from my wrist injury, and then some, but I also leaned out as well - and all on ~4,300 calories a day using my own modification of the Lean Gains protocol. I'm not huge by any means, but muscle mass can be gained using this nutritional method - it would just mean a little experimentation on your part to figure out just what and when is the best time to eat for YOU re gains.

~Rosie~
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Eating isn't the problem for me, it is actually the opposite..LOL I could eat 4k cal in a sitting, easy..haha

My thoughts aren't really about gaining "muscle" as I know first hand it is possible like this, it is to what degree can someone grow? When you are pushing your genetic envelope etc, is this the best approach? There are people who hold a decent amount of mass I have seen IF, but no one who IMO is truely HUGE, and that could be for the factors I listed above(ie. just too close minded to try, too new of a protocol etc)

Does the fast start to inhibit muscle gains? Should something like an EAA supp(with added leu) be taken in the morning to stimulate protein synthesis for potentially better results?

I mean I am having a hard time mentally thinking about having to go back to 6-7+ meals a day.haha. I think at most I would do something like Layne Norton talks about and do 4-5 bigger meals.

I have done IF for going on a year now, so I KNOW in theory it should work, and it is not like I am wasting away even in a "diet" phase, but there is still that small part of me that can't fully commit to my belief on it for SHEER mass gains when the goal is to be BIG.

I mean could Phil Heath be Phil Heath eating this way, as long as he could get the calories down?
 
Frank Reynolds said:
Eating isn't the problem for me, it is actually the opposite..LOL I could eat 4k cal in a sitting, easy..haha

My thoughts aren't really about gaining "muscle" as I know first hand it is possible like this, it is to what degree can someone grow? When you are pushing your genetic envelope etc, is this the best approach? There are people who hold a decent amount of mass I have seen IF, but no one who IMO is truely HUGE, and that could be for the factors I listed above(ie. just too close minded to try, too new of a protocol etc)

Does the fast start to inhibit muscle gains? Should something like an EAA supp(with added leu) be taken in the morning to stimulate protein synthesis for potentially better results?

I mean I am having a hard time mentally thinking about having to go back to 6-7+ meals a day.haha. I think at most I would do something like Layne Norton talks about and do 4-5 bigger meals.

I have done IF for going on a year now, so I KNOW in theory it should work, and it is not like I am wasting away even in a "diet" phase, but there is still that small part of me that can't fully commit to my belief on it for SHEER mass gains when the goal is to be BIG.

I mean could Phil Heath be Phil Heath eating this way, as long as he could get the calories down?
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I know what you mean re eating that much in a single sitting - I do it all the time, LOL :D

I can't tell you to what degree you can grow if you use Lean Gains with your focus on gains only. I would imagine using BCAAs more often and in higher doses would help somewhat - I know the more I use, the better my results are, even in general (my body loves to perpetually recomp).

I don't think Lean Gains is a "bulking" nutritional method - more for a recomp I would say - and guys like Phil Heath more than likely (I could be wrong) do the whole traditional "bulk" and "cut" - not caring how much they gain during their bulk and whether or not there is fat gains with it, before cutting down to competition condition. Don't forget also, that they're not going to be natural when doing what they do; plus, they've been doing this for years.

That said, Chris is the resident expert on Lean Gains here, and if any have, the guys will more likely to have used it for "mass" goals than I have, so I am going to let them respond more about this for you - I will listen and learn as well. Sorry I could not be of more help.

~Rosie~
 
Frank Reynolds said:
I would love to hear peoples thoughts on IF for a straight up BULK, for someone looking to get big. I mean as much as I love IF, and would hate to abandon this life style, I have something in the back of my head afraid to use it this off season to really GROW. Maybe it is typically BB dogma getting the best of me, but I have yet to see anyone who is MASSIVE employ this, or get there doing this. I would say the majority of me says because it is too new a concept and most big dudes, or people looking to get extremely large would have thoughts against it, but there is the part of me that wonders if it is infact less then optimal for mass gains.

Thoughts?
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I'm bulking and have been for over a month now Frank. It is going very well so far. I'm also on cycle, but I've gained 11 lbs with a very minimal increase in BF. I basically am down to 2 cardio days with 4-5 build days. My calorie levels are very similar to what I did for recomp, only I dropped a burn day and added a build day.
 
Your thoughts mirror mine, but that is again where my mind starts to question it. I know it "should" work, but will it?

I guess it will be all speculation here, because I am not sure anyone has used it in the way I am talking about.

Bottom line is for "most" looking to be legitimately big, getting a bit "doughy" is going to have to happen. I am fine with that, if LG can get me that level of muscle mass accumulation.

For example, if I want my end goal to be 5'8 215-220@10% bf, I may have to get up around 250+ for that to be possible. Theoretically doing that via IF should be doable, but is it?

Clearly the +20/-20 isn't going to cut it here, and starting around +20/-10, +20/Maint. +30/-10, etc would seem a more logical place to start, but then again we come into a grey area of what is more important a constant surplus, big anabolic days followed by a small deficit, etc.

Do you feel EAA would be more useful in the fasted portion, since circulating EAA's may be lowered then? I know BCAA is preferred if there is adequate EAA(ie. You ate a meal 1-2hrs earlier, hit a dose of BCAA(leucine), and stimulate MPS) but without that meal, would an EAA make more sense, and then maybe BCAA after the fast break, between feedings?

RickRock13 said:
I'm bulking and have been for over a month now Frank. It is going very well so far. I'm also on cycle, but I've gained 11 lbs with a very minimal increase in BF. I basically am down to 2 cardio days with 4-5 build days. My calorie levels are very similar to what I did for recomp, only I dropped a burn day and added a build day.
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Thanks for the input. I just want to clarify, I have "bulked" as well, with success in the last year on IF(although I do question if it was 100% of what it could be, because I backed it down a bit as I started to get soft). My questions more lie in "taking it past avg joe status". In someone who is riding the fine line of pushing past their genetics, IS THIS OPTIMAL. I feel where I am at now, I am going to have a hard time moving forward. I don't have great genetics for muscle mass, and already hold a decent amount for my frame, so I want to make sure I am doing everything I can to maximize it.

You look at the LG site, and you see everyone got from point a to b, but have any of them now got from B to G. Getting from a semi noobish state to a moderate/advanced state isn't the hard part, it is taking someone who is already advanced, and PUSHING that.

Maybe I will need to just bite the bullet and DO IT, and get big and a bit higher in BF, and see how much mass I can accumulate.
 
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