purebred
Guest
Freshening up the thread. 
mr.cooper69
Legend
purebred
Guest
He may be going off my post: Invalid Link Removed
the 2:1 EPA/DHA ratio is what was found to be most effective in multiple studies that were conducted. However, the individual's being treated were suffering from mental disorders, thus, the dosage may not need to be the same for healthy individuals.
mr.cooper69
Legend
Written by Alan Aragon regarding high EPA/DHA intake:
The Dark Side of Over-doing Fish Oil Supplementation
Yes, Luke, there is always a dark side. In the world of unchecked marketing hype, fish oil has definitely gotten the “more is better” stamp. The problem is, EPA and DHA have a well-documented ability to suppress the body’s immune response. Although not as consistent as the immune effects, data also exist on the ability of EPA and DHA to increase bleeding time and oxidation. Let’s take a look at a couple of the published peer-reviewed research that no one in the fitness industry talks about.
Thies and colleagues examined the 12-week effect of various fatty acid supplement mixes on healthy subjects [19]. Various blends of placebo oil and oils rich in ALA, GLA, AA, DHA, or EPA (720mg) + DHA (280mg) were compared. Total fat intake from the 9-capsule dose was 4 g/d. The EPA/DHA treatment was the only one that had a negative effect on immunity, significantly decreasing natural killer cell activity by 48%. This effect was reversed after 4 weeks of ceasing intake of the supplement.
Rees and colleagues investigated the effects of various amounts of EPA on immune markers in young and older men [20]. In a 12-week study, EPA was incorporated into plasma and mononuclear cell phospholipids. Supplemental EPA in amounts of 1.35, 2.7, and 4.05g/day caused a dose-dependent decrease in neutrophil respiratory burst, indicating the suppression of a cellular defense against immunity threats. This effect was seen in the older, but not the younger men. Based on these and the previous data, if you’re not a spring chicken, and immunity is an issue, you might not want to go hog-wild on the fish oil dosing.
The Dark Side of Over-doing Fish Oil Supplementation
Yes, Luke, there is always a dark side. In the world of unchecked marketing hype, fish oil has definitely gotten the “more is better” stamp. The problem is, EPA and DHA have a well-documented ability to suppress the body’s immune response. Although not as consistent as the immune effects, data also exist on the ability of EPA and DHA to increase bleeding time and oxidation. Let’s take a look at a couple of the published peer-reviewed research that no one in the fitness industry talks about.
Thies and colleagues examined the 12-week effect of various fatty acid supplement mixes on healthy subjects [19]. Various blends of placebo oil and oils rich in ALA, GLA, AA, DHA, or EPA (720mg) + DHA (280mg) were compared. Total fat intake from the 9-capsule dose was 4 g/d. The EPA/DHA treatment was the only one that had a negative effect on immunity, significantly decreasing natural killer cell activity by 48%. This effect was reversed after 4 weeks of ceasing intake of the supplement.
Rees and colleagues investigated the effects of various amounts of EPA on immune markers in young and older men [20]. In a 12-week study, EPA was incorporated into plasma and mononuclear cell phospholipids. Supplemental EPA in amounts of 1.35, 2.7, and 4.05g/day caused a dose-dependent decrease in neutrophil respiratory burst, indicating the suppression of a cellular defense against immunity threats. This effect was seen in the older, but not the younger men. Based on these and the previous data, if you’re not a spring chicken, and immunity is an issue, you might not want to go hog-wild on the fish oil dosing.
Cooky32
Well-known member
I believe these studies are flawed. I believe the pharmeceutical industry wants us to believe dietary supplements are bad, and that we need drugs to heal inflamation etc. Then they have commercials for prescription fish oil costing a butt load compared to what you can buy in the store.
They will lead us to believe theirs is better. LOL. I beg to differ. I hate the drug industry. Hate them.
They will lead us to believe theirs is better. LOL. I beg to differ. I hate the drug industry. Hate them.
purebred
Guest
Correct me if I'm wrong but I would like to think therapeutical doses and preventative doses differ. The optimal daily intake of EPA/DHA is most likely not the same as the amount administered to individuals suffering from depression or schizophrenia or even someone who's looking to lower cholesterol or triglyceride levels.
Most nutritional supplements do possess toxicity levels. Different dosages are suggested for different circumstances/conditions.
Most nutritional supplements do possess toxicity levels. Different dosages are suggested for different circumstances/conditions.
wildcat44
New member
I've enjoyed reading this thread. I know the OP stated a particular interest in the cognitive benefits from fish oil, but as a guy who just found out in 2011 that he has coronary atherosclerotic plaque, my targeted reading of scientific data and medical opinions has focused on the heart health benefits. You could say I've taken a crash course on the subject as it applies to reducing the risk of heart attack. Much of my opinion has been formed from what I've learned from a cardiologist named Dr. William Davis, who practices in Milwaukee and is the author of the book (and website) titled "Track Your Plaque".
Based on what I've read and learned, the guys in this thread who opine 1,200 - 2,000 mg of EPA+DHA are right on target for healthy individuals who aren't at an elevated risk for a cardiovascular event. With me being in the elevated risk category and under Doctor's supervision, I'm taking EPA+DHA = 3,000 mg daily. In just 4 months, Omega-3 fish oil has played a vital role in helping me accomplish the results that I've seen so far: an 80% reduction in triglycerides, 50% reduction in c-reactive protein (inflammation), and 38% reduction in small particle LDL-cholesterol. What else has played a role? Diet/Nutrition, exercise/strength training, correcting a severe Vit D-3 deficiency and weight loss. I've taken no prescription medicines and I've held off on the high dose niacin for now.
What I've read from Dr. Davis agrees with what the OP has stated --- dosing for fish oil is a perennial point of confusion. He goes on to say however that it's quite simple by stating that the outsized heart benefits of omega-3s start at 1200 mg omega-3 per day. So that's the starting point and everything I've read seems to indicate a preventive health benefit dose of 1,200 - 1,800 mg of combined EPA+DHA for those who haven't already been identified as being at an elevated risk for heart attack. As you might (and hope to) expect, Dr. Davis advises that taking more than 3,000 mg of EPA+DHA should be done so under the supervision of your own healthcare provider.
Since the omega-3 RBC index reflects your long-term omega-3 intake and absorption, that would probably be the best way for a person to determine if the amount of fish oil they are taking is sufficient to supplement what they get through eating fatty fish. I've read that most (North) Americans have omega-3 RBC levels in the 2.5-4.0% range, which is associated with greater risk for sudden cardiac death. Based on some of the more recent studies, blood levels of 10% or higher appear to be associated with a decreased risk for heart attack. Dr. Davis' opinion is that "if you desire maximal control over heart health, know your omega-3 index and keep it 10% or higher."
Knowing what I know now (learned from others), even if I wasn't concerned with my coronary plaque, I'd still want to take 1,200 - 1,800 mg of EPA+DHA just to counter balance all the omega-6 fatty acids in the typical (North) American diet. We need the Omega-3 fatty acids to compete with the omega-6s to fight off the inflammatory prostaglandins and to increase the anti-inflammatory prostanoids.
I'm a lurker here who has learned a great deal from you guys. You've (AM) helped me tremendously in my quest to naturally stimulate testosterone production, reduce excess estradiol and raise free testosterone. along with increasing muscle and strength, while decreasing fat and losing weight. I've learned a great deal here just being a lurker---thanks! I'll probably always be a lurker---at least I know I'll still be here reading because there's still much more to learn and new findings/ideas continuously on the horizon.
Well, back to lurking, lol. Again, I've enjoyed this thread and I responded just to endorse what several have already expressed in this thread in re to a logical dosing. Plus, maybe there is someone out there who might benefit from my passing along some of the above information as it pertains to fish oil in helping to reduce inflammation and the risk of a cardiovascular event.
Based on what I've read and learned, the guys in this thread who opine 1,200 - 2,000 mg of EPA+DHA are right on target for healthy individuals who aren't at an elevated risk for a cardiovascular event. With me being in the elevated risk category and under Doctor's supervision, I'm taking EPA+DHA = 3,000 mg daily. In just 4 months, Omega-3 fish oil has played a vital role in helping me accomplish the results that I've seen so far: an 80% reduction in triglycerides, 50% reduction in c-reactive protein (inflammation), and 38% reduction in small particle LDL-cholesterol. What else has played a role? Diet/Nutrition, exercise/strength training, correcting a severe Vit D-3 deficiency and weight loss. I've taken no prescription medicines and I've held off on the high dose niacin for now.
What I've read from Dr. Davis agrees with what the OP has stated --- dosing for fish oil is a perennial point of confusion. He goes on to say however that it's quite simple by stating that the outsized heart benefits of omega-3s start at 1200 mg omega-3 per day. So that's the starting point and everything I've read seems to indicate a preventive health benefit dose of 1,200 - 1,800 mg of combined EPA+DHA for those who haven't already been identified as being at an elevated risk for heart attack. As you might (and hope to) expect, Dr. Davis advises that taking more than 3,000 mg of EPA+DHA should be done so under the supervision of your own healthcare provider.
Since the omega-3 RBC index reflects your long-term omega-3 intake and absorption, that would probably be the best way for a person to determine if the amount of fish oil they are taking is sufficient to supplement what they get through eating fatty fish. I've read that most (North) Americans have omega-3 RBC levels in the 2.5-4.0% range, which is associated with greater risk for sudden cardiac death. Based on some of the more recent studies, blood levels of 10% or higher appear to be associated with a decreased risk for heart attack. Dr. Davis' opinion is that "if you desire maximal control over heart health, know your omega-3 index and keep it 10% or higher."
Knowing what I know now (learned from others), even if I wasn't concerned with my coronary plaque, I'd still want to take 1,200 - 1,800 mg of EPA+DHA just to counter balance all the omega-6 fatty acids in the typical (North) American diet. We need the Omega-3 fatty acids to compete with the omega-6s to fight off the inflammatory prostaglandins and to increase the anti-inflammatory prostanoids.
I'm a lurker here who has learned a great deal from you guys. You've (AM) helped me tremendously in my quest to naturally stimulate testosterone production, reduce excess estradiol and raise free testosterone. along with increasing muscle and strength, while decreasing fat and losing weight. I've learned a great deal here just being a lurker---thanks! I'll probably always be a lurker---at least I know I'll still be here reading because there's still much more to learn and new findings/ideas continuously on the horizon.
Well, back to lurking, lol. Again, I've enjoyed this thread and I responded just to endorse what several have already expressed in this thread in re to a logical dosing. Plus, maybe there is someone out there who might benefit from my passing along some of the above information as it pertains to fish oil in helping to reduce inflammation and the risk of a cardiovascular event.
Cooky32
Well-known member
I am not saying you cant take too much, but most and I do mean most of us are not going to take too much of anything. Some people will get hooked on stims, etc, but I am merely referring to dietary supps having healing properties, and pharmaceutical industries do not want our supps helping us.
mr.cooper69
Legend
2g EPHA/DHA total.
No.These studies have nothing to do with the pharmaceutical industry. Also, the conclusions of the studies are perfectly logical.
As for your taking too much post...you are taking too much fish oil.
poison
Board Sponsor
mr.cooper69
Legend
I'll stick to my SAN Fish Oil.
Flabby
Member
Not to say AA is absolutely wrong, but...
How do they determine a proper amount of natural killer cell activity? He's trying to say that "more is better" isn't applicable by saying "more is better" with regard to certain processes of the immune system. Especially considering the prevalence of autoimmune disorders and the debilitating effects of allergies in all forms, you'd think that some nuanced understanding should be applied to the immune system as well.
mr.cooper69
Legend
He is just dumbing it down for his every day readers. I can post the links to all the studies if interested. LMK
poison
Board Sponsor
Me too, just saying, it might fit his needs.
Flabby
Member
That may be the case. I'm not an immunologist so I'm not sure - just pointing out the implicit assumption that "more is better" with regard to immune system response in healthy adults.
Is there a consensus opinion on appropriate natural killer cell concentration in the blood stream in individuals not suffering from acute illness, or that more is better in all cases?
If you have any information about that I'd be very appreciative.
Anecdotally, fish oil is incredibly helpful with my allergies and generally provides me with a better quality of life for that reason alone - more energy, better mood, better focus, better digestion, better sleep. But if I'm doing this via unhealthy level of suppression to my immune system I would definitely reconsider.
purebred
Guest
I'm guessing titanium dioxide is bad? lol Doesn't sound very healthy!
CEDeoudes59
USA HOCKEY
Hey I megadosed fish oil (upwards of 30g/day) first the first 7 weeks of my cutting phase.
[video=youtube;T3oQwmae_Tw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3oQwmae_Tw[/video]
Over a 7 week period, I took upwards of 30g of Barlean's Omega Swirl Fish Oil a day. Probably exceeding 50g on some days. It was an experiment but I figured it would help preserve muscle during my cutting diet, control joint pain/inflammation, promote optimal cholesterol levels and promote a sense of well being. It did all these, especially controlling joint pain which can get bad on a NO CARB diet and significantly helped my cholesterol levels. Understand that- in no way do I credit ONLY fish oil with "burning body fat" or "getting me ripped," it is merely supplement to a calorie-restricted NO CARB diet that probably helped keep insulin levels low.
Here are before and after pictures-
Invalid Link Removed
Table of Contents-
Invalid Link Removed The Sort of Great Fish Oil Experiment (30+gram/day)
Invalid Link Removed The fish oil I used (amazing taste, no sugar) Barlean's Omega Swirl
(going to finish this write up in a couple of hours...)
Invalid Link Removed Idea to megadose fish oil via Charles Poliquin (link is below)
Invalid Link Removed I megadosed fish oil as supplement to a calorie deficient cutting diet (~2400 cals.)
Invalid Link Removed My goals of megadosing fish - help lose body fat, retain muscle during cutting
Invalid Link Removed Before/After 7 Weeks of Pictures (see link above)
Invalid Link Removed Fish oil great for joints on cutting, no-carb diet to replace lost water retention
Invalid Link Removed Megadosed Fish Oil beats Alflutop. Megadosed equal to low dose Deca
Invalid Link Removed Megadosed Fish Oil AWESOME for cholesterol. HDL 39 to 62; LDL 161 to 74
Invalid Link Removed My thoughts on the fish oil experiment. Great for joints, great for cholesterol, good for replacing 30g of carbs to retain muscle, good at promoting "sense of well-being"
Invalid Link Removed Losing body fat is mainly diet. Joints, cholesterol = Fish Oil
Invalid Link Removed Get a high quality fish oil. Megadosing Costco Fish Oil isn't a good idea.*
Invalid Link Removed Summary- Helped: Joints, cholesterol, stable blood sugar levels; Seemingly helped: muscle retention, serotonin levels, skin quality
* Several doctors feel this way too
Cholesterol Stats, 7 week results
HDL 39 (low) to 62 (ideal)
LDL 161 (borderline high) to 74 (very good)
Total Cholesterol 200 (borderline high) to 136 (very good)
[video=youtube;T3oQwmae_Tw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3oQwmae_Tw[/video]
Over a 7 week period, I took upwards of 30g of Barlean's Omega Swirl Fish Oil a day. Probably exceeding 50g on some days. It was an experiment but I figured it would help preserve muscle during my cutting diet, control joint pain/inflammation, promote optimal cholesterol levels and promote a sense of well being. It did all these, especially controlling joint pain which can get bad on a NO CARB diet and significantly helped my cholesterol levels. Understand that- in no way do I credit ONLY fish oil with "burning body fat" or "getting me ripped," it is merely supplement to a calorie-restricted NO CARB diet that probably helped keep insulin levels low.
Here are before and after pictures-
Invalid Link Removed
Table of Contents-
Invalid Link Removed The Sort of Great Fish Oil Experiment (30+gram/day)
Invalid Link Removed The fish oil I used (amazing taste, no sugar) Barlean's Omega Swirl
(going to finish this write up in a couple of hours...)
Invalid Link Removed Idea to megadose fish oil via Charles Poliquin (link is below)
Invalid Link Removed I megadosed fish oil as supplement to a calorie deficient cutting diet (~2400 cals.)
Invalid Link Removed My goals of megadosing fish - help lose body fat, retain muscle during cutting
Invalid Link Removed Before/After 7 Weeks of Pictures (see link above)
Invalid Link Removed Fish oil great for joints on cutting, no-carb diet to replace lost water retention
Invalid Link Removed Megadosed Fish Oil beats Alflutop. Megadosed equal to low dose Deca
Invalid Link Removed Megadosed Fish Oil AWESOME for cholesterol. HDL 39 to 62; LDL 161 to 74
Invalid Link Removed My thoughts on the fish oil experiment. Great for joints, great for cholesterol, good for replacing 30g of carbs to retain muscle, good at promoting "sense of well-being"
Invalid Link Removed Losing body fat is mainly diet. Joints, cholesterol = Fish Oil
Invalid Link Removed Get a high quality fish oil. Megadosing Costco Fish Oil isn't a good idea.*
Invalid Link Removed Summary- Helped: Joints, cholesterol, stable blood sugar levels; Seemingly helped: muscle retention, serotonin levels, skin quality
* Several doctors feel this way too
Cholesterol Stats, 7 week results
HDL 39 (low) to 62 (ideal)
LDL 161 (borderline high) to 74 (very good)
Total Cholesterol 200 (borderline high) to 136 (very good)
RenegadeRows
Well-known member
great post and experiment. reps for a job well done sir