The case for DMAA - thoughts?

[fueledpassion]

Are you saying taking kratom before during and or after some type of usage with DMAA would down regulate the efficacy of DMAA and or other amines?

Not at all. DMAA doesn't directly interact with the Mu opioid receptors, but Kratom partially does. I'm saying that once your body gets used to having an opiate for energy, it raises the neurotransmitters in your brain to levels FAR higher than any normal dose of DMAA could ever do and when you try to stop Kratom, unless you advance yourself to something stronger (which isn't a good thing) you'll get a crash that nothing can really fix except time. Kratom causes a real supraphysiological change in the neurotransmitters. My challenge is in trying to take it to enjoy the cognitive and physical benefits without causing a major change in the neurotransmitter count in my brain.

Once you go down that route (or with something similar like Cocaine)...nothing else at least nothing OTC will suffice. You just have to suffer to consequences of withdrawals and will likely forever be desensitized to milder things. By desensitization, I simply mean that once you experience opiate-like highs, it's tough for things like stimulants to really make an impact in terms of energy and mood. It'd be like experiencing heaven and then being brought back down to earth - no matter how much effort one puts into replicating the experience, it just won't be the same because it is entirely a different thing altogether.

And while I used heaven and earth as an example, let's not misunderstand my point and think that I am comparing Kratom to what I think heaven would be like. I'm not.

 

[fueledpassion]

Apples & oranges... the Kratom ban got defeated because literally thousands of reputable research scientists and pharmacologist from around the county lobbied politicians, the FDA, and the DEA on behalf of Kratom. Besides Kratom products are all plant derived nobody sells synthetic Kratom alkaloids, well they do but it's extremely cost-prohibitive for people to use them recreationally. As opposed to dmaa which in its supplement form is almost entirely synthetically produced in a lab. besides even if it's banned in supplements we all know it's still widely available as a research chem. For responsible adults it's probably safer to get that way because you know exactly how much your dosing (for non human research of course) and how often.

personally I'm just going to stick to buying bronkaid & caffeine at my local pharmacy as the ECA stack blows dmaa out of the water. I don't know how the rest of you feel but I can't seem to find the sweet spot for dmaa. It either feels like I didn't take enough for took way too much

although I completely agree with the second part of your statement. the problem is not enough people know about or care about semi obscure stimulants like dmaa as opposed to kratom which has dozens of legitimate medical uses and some pretty powerful proponents behind it

Responding to the bold statement, I agree. I just took this combo this morning. Was decent but man, I've really messed my stimulant experience up with Kratom. Everything just pales in comparison, with the exception of taking:

1g - DL Phenylalanine
1g- L-Tyrosine
1/2 -1 TBSP of pure Black Seed Cumin Oil
750mg - Anaracitam
300mg - Phenylpiracitam

That's a pretty good stack for mood and energy, at least for a while.

Nonetheless, I took the Bronkaid/caffeine combo to burn fat - not necessarily to feel good.

 

[uprightrows]

fueledpassion I 100% understand what you are saying, although personally I do not get much of a boost from mu opioid agonists, maybe a little dulling of pain but certainly not high levels of energy. However amphetamines, specifically dextro isomer stuff gives me limitless supplies of energy and as long as I force myself to eat and maintain proper nutrition I am unstoppable when it comes to training. Also I completely relate, once you have had such an effective ergogenic aid it is difficult to even place otc stuff in the same ball park. Luckily the withdrawal from typical stimulants (levo and dextro amphetamine salts) actually isn't horrible in my experience you just eat a lot and want to sleep all the time, which isn't necessarily detrimental to a body builder. I have been through alcohol withdrawal several times and that s*** is orders of magnitude more terrible than amphetamine withdrawal, and from people I've talked to so is being dope sick (ie opiate withdrawal). Also I'm not trying to trivialize or down play the ramifications of amphetamine use, no one should touch the stuff unless you have a prescription, but it does have several advantages over opiates/opioids as an ergogenic.

 

[fueledpassion]

fueledpassion I 100% understand what you are saying, although personally I do not get much of a boost from mu opioid agonists, maybe a little dulling of pain but certainly not high levels of energy. However amphetamines, specifically dextro isomer stuff gives me limitless supplies of energy and as long as I force myself to eat and maintain proper nutrition I am unstoppable when it comes to training. Also I completely relate, once you have had such an effective ergogenic aid it is difficult to even place otc stuff in the same ball park. Luckily the withdrawal from typical stimulants (levo and dextro amphetamine salts) actually isn't horrible in my experience you just eat a lot and want to sleep all the time, which isn't necessarily detrimental to a body builder. I have been through alcohol withdrawal several times and that s*** is orders of magnitude more terrible than amphetamine withdrawal, and from people I've talked to so is being dope sick (ie opiate withdrawal). Also I'm not trying to trivialize or down play the ramifications of amphetamine use, no one should touch the stuff unless you have a prescription, but it does have several advantages over opiates/opioids as an ergogenic.

You know, I can only think of ONE person who took Adderall for a long time and actually had trouble getting off it, yet I know tons of people that take it or used to take it and none of them have stories of withdrawals to tell about. Nonetheless, my experience with it was similar to yours. There isn't much out there that I don't respond ideally to, lol. Notice the double negative - isn't much I don't respond ideally to. I'm even hooked on the training stimulus. If I miss more than 48hrs in the gym, I get restless leg syndrome - not unlike an opiate withdrawal TBH.

Kratom users often used to be alcoholics, if that says anything about the similarities between the two. I don't support addictions, but man, we've all got em and if I can have one from a natural plant that doesn't cause liver failure, diabetes, high blood pressure and doesn't pose an imminent risk of death (like Heroine for instance), then I'm all for it especially if it means you aren't using one of those other drugs or vices. I hate that I'm a sensory seeker and that I will always be one for life but my point about all this is that while I am a sucker for stuff like stims and Kratom, it's always a calculated risk for me - there are more positives than negatives as long as it stays legal, cheap & pure. This post directly adds color to my previous posts @ post #100 & #113.

 

[resrch3d]

Gaspari is suppose to be coming out with SP250 w/o DMAA and I believe there is already a version of Mesomorph without DMAA (there was alteast a year or so ago) so they already have a few products in the works/out.

I knew they made some dmaa free pre workouts, i just wouldn't consider the other stims in its place to put them on par with dmaa.

 

[resrch3d]

I'm a sensory seeker and that I will always be one for life but my point about all this is that while I am a sucker for stuff like stims and Kratom, it's always a calculated risk for me - there are more positives than negatives as long as it stays legal, cheap & pure. This post directly adds color to my previous posts @ post #100 & #113.

Yup, same, and agree. Any recognition I have of any elevated state of awareness or change in any sensory perceptions to any degree...It's what a look for. Stims, kratom, and other plant and herbal based supplementary items that create a recognized change in states of awareness I find safe (for me non addictive) and in most cases beneficial to some degree for myslef.

 

[resrch3d]

Not at all. DMAA doesn't directly interact with the Mu opioid receptors, but Kratom partially does. I'm saying that once your body gets used to having an opiate for energy, it raises the neurotransmitters in your brain to levels FAR higher than any normal dose of DMAA could ever do.

Would make sense, I cycle around with kratom and more recently f-phenibut. I try to never take any of what I like too consecutively. Harder to do when you have your fav stims that help with work and what ever else you like them for, but good point.

 

[fueledpassion]

Would make sense, I cycle around with kratom and more recently f-phenibut. I try to never take any of what I like too consecutively. Harder to do when you have your fav stims that help with work and what ever else you like them for, but good point.

And herein lies my problem - Kratom is awesome at providing lower blood pressure and awesome cognitive function (at least for me) but directly conflicts with the idea of build muscle mass. This is over apparent to me - I notice a significant increase in fullness when I stop Kratom use. Not sure if it's actually muscle growth/glycogen retention or if it's just overall a reduction in anti-inflammatory response. Personally, the last time I quite it, I put on 3lbs of mass within 5 days of stopping it. So there's that. Kratom isn't likely productive in the long run for bodybuilding. I hate that.

We need something that legally produces effects similar to Kratom in terms of mood and energy without the opiate-like effects of pain killing, anti-inflammatory actions, addictive properties, etc. The supplement industry still has a lot to improve on, IMO. DMAA doesn't quite capture the need.

 

[Ricky10]

This video is great! I love this guy...

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dV2dQrQ6VFk&ebc=ANyPxKom1uTgTkTIcua2Vou3y7 3W8uoo7AEwIsotSJxCmhNdCIvuTe0d J7uDpsghkISJ-UVmbkMGW5nURn_XgQ8zVh_JclZ6zA[/video]

 

[resrch3d]

Really dmaa doesn't have to not be in products until this case is done, right? So will stores stop selling the products even though there has not been a final ruling? That seems to be the way some places are acting yet my understanding of the law is, no one needs to really stop selling products containing dmaa.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Really dmaa doesn't have to not be in products until this case is done, right? So will stores stop selling the products even though there has not been a final ruling? That seems to be the way some places are acting yet my understanding of the law is, no one needs to really stop selling products containing dmaa.

hi-tech has and will continued its production of DMAA.

 

[fueledpassion]

hi-tech has and will continued its production of DMAA.

This is just one more example that will lead to the greater population trusting our government even less than we already do.

 

[heckler7]

I remember using it in several products when it was legal. All the controversy started when some soldiers used it before a long march and died from what appeared to be heat stroke. it was blamed on DMAA so the military immediately banned it on base but you could still get it at supp shops. the stuff worked great till they removed the DMAA and I remember those products post DMAA didnt have the same kick. Anyway in studies its shown to raise blood pressure a significant amout

https://examine.com/supplements/1-3-dimethylamylamine/#hem-blood-pressure

 

[compan]

I remember using it in several products when it was legal. All the controversy started when some soldiers used it before a long march and died from what appeared to be heat stroke. it was blamed on DMAA so the military immediately banned it on base but you could still get it at supp shops. the stuff worked great till they removed the DMAA and I remember those products post DMAA didnt have the same kick. Anyway in studies its shown to raise blood pressure a significant amout

https://examine.com/supplements/1-3-dimethylamylamine/#hem-blood-pressure

Looks like 20% which could pose a problem for those already with existing high blood pressure.

 

[danielmoo]

Looks like 20% which could pose a problem for those already with existing high blood pressure.

Yep, and many users do not even know what their BP is before taking which is problematic.

 

[stein12]

we goochi mang lol

 

[fueledpassion]

Looks like 20% which could pose a problem for those already with existing high blood pressure.

20% is manageable. 2g of Garlic extract and an ACE-II inhibitor and you'll negate that increase and some.

 

[resrch3d]

I remember using it in several products when it was legal. All the controversy started when some soldiers used it before a long march and died from what appeared to be heat stroke. it was blamed on DMAA so the military immediately banned it on base but you could still get it at supp shops. the stuff worked great till they removed the DMAA and I remember those products post DMAA didnt have the same kick. Anyway in studies its shown to raise blood pressure a significant amout

I remember I was in training on a base when this situation went down. I was still able to get dmaa for that period in time but products like that were starting to get pulled after that.

Later it was concluded that dmaa was not the cause...I'd have to search for the literature but it's def out there.

Not to say some won't have a spike in bp, but I'd say the average Joe with a clean bill of health shouldn't see anything abnormal.

 

[Lucianooo]

That's a BIG BS.If you are healthy with no BP issues Dmaa in moderate dosage is completely fine, obviously you don't have to abuse it as everything. When an ingredient works guys it will be banned. That's it!

 

[Johnold]

I never had a problem after taking DMAA...never.

If anything i felt like doing math and building rockets. Stuff is amazing...limitless.

 

[ZachH]

I just ordered an omron upper arm 5 series blood pressure monitor and have dust extreme (75mg dmaa per scoop) and mesomorph (65mg dmaa per scoop) ill take blood pressure before and after use of each pre workout and report back. Others should do the same!

 

[cobri66]

I never had a problem after taking DMAA...never.

If anything i felt like doing math and building rockets. Stuff is amazing...limitless.

This is me also

 

[Fishermanzz2]

It seems like the FDA always tries to ruin a good thing. A lot of these product don't even have many negative side effects, or they may compete with pharmacies. Ridiculous.

 

[Johnold]

Theyll let you kill yourself with cigarettes and aspartame and wont release the REAL cure for cancer but will give you hell about DMAA. Smart.

 

[Fishermanzz2]

Theyll let you kill yourself with cigarettes and aspartame and wont release the REAL cure for cancer but will give you hell about DMAA. Smart.

Oh 100% believe we have a cure for cancer. All that research going into cures. It's all about money. That's it. Cigarettes=money. Did you know there's technology to repair skin burns in a few hours without any scarring? Government just won't allow the company to patent it because it'd cost pharmaceutical companies, and others, money.

 

[Johnold]

Yeah i know. But when that end all life asteroid comes one day those same criminals will be asking "why me"?

Its a shame we lie and cheat like that.

I think we should take back everything they took.

 

[Johnold]

I hate that they take and take and never give.

 

[Fishermanzz2]

I hate that they take and take and never give.

I can't wait for the day that the people finally decide to stand up for what's right. I can't imagine how the world would be right now with no cancer, etc. I think we'd still have plenty of money. Government just doesn't want to take that chance.

 

[Johnold]

Oh its coming. Unfortunately it's going to be way too rough and just not good. For nobody.

You see how the world and people are changing and becoming more desensitized to alot? Thats 1 foot in already. Second foot will come along with negans bat.

 

[Johnold]

I hate to say it but the dogs are ready to bite the $hit out of the government and authority and there wont be much they can do about it.

 

[Fishermanzz2]

Oh its coming. Unfortunately it's going to be way too rough and just not good. For nobody.

You see how the world and people are changing and becoming more desensitized to alot? Thats 1 foot in already. Second foot will come along with negans bat.

Exactly, people are changing. I guess people are just getting fed up with being mistreated, lied to and robbed.

 

[Johnold]

Too much i guess

 

[Nac]

Lol love the hypocrisy of conspiracy tards.

 

[Johnold]

Eh, whatever.

 

[Johnold]

But anyways, DMAA! ?

 

[Fishermanzz2]

Yeah. Gf's father said even his precinct and whole departmemt and other officers are all messed up, corrupt, turn on eachother and lie cheat and basically steal from within. Hes just waiting ever so patiently to retire in 2 years. Then moving to the mountains and living out the rest of his life not having to worry about his and his families life. He even parks his undercover issued pickup truck backwards cause theres only the back plate cause he doesn't want people to know.

He also just made detective like 3 months ago. He always wanted that but atleast better late than never.

Oh yeah, there's plenty of corruption in law enforcement. It's easy to get in that loop because there's no money being a cop. And moving to the mountains sounds nice. But I think not worrying about everyone else is kinda like running from the problem. But it's smart to do that with the truck, makes him less of a target from criminals. And sucks that he just made it with 2 years left. Could've been more money for longer.

 

[Fishermanzz2]

Lol love the hypocrisy of conspiracy tards.

Haha.

 

[Johnold]

I know its easy to rant but the government IS changing in the sense that it almost doesnt need permission anymore to do what they want.

I suppose i could understand the designer steroid ban but DMAA?.....really? What next, caffeine?

 

[Fishermanzz2]

I know its easy to rant but the government IS changing in the sense that it almost doesnt need permission anymore to do what they want.

I suppose i could understand the designer steroid ban but DMAA?.....really? What next, caffeine?

Isn't not needing permission a bad thing though? And pure caffeine powder is already banned to the public now.

 

[Johnold]

Can't even go watch a damn concert nowadays. Messed up man.

 

[Johnold]

Isn't not needing permission a bad thing though? And pure caffeine powder is already banned to the public now.

Well, i guess im late to the memo.

Maybe toilet paper will be next.

And tap water.

 

[Johnold]

Seems nowadays the only way you could put DMAA back into your products is if you join Jared Wheat over at Hi-Tech. He's the only one fighting the good fight. He'll probably lose the fight at the end and might have a domino effect but im hoping for positive news.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Oh 100% believe we have a cure for cancer. All that research going into cures. It's all about money. That's it. Cigarettes=money. Did you know there's technology to repair skin burns in a few hours without any scarring? Government just won't allow the company to patent it because it'd cost pharmaceutical companies, and others, money.

I don't think that's how cancer works. Do you really think there's one magic cure for every type of cancer? Also, if we do have this magical cure, what is the government, who apparently is keeping it hidden, doing with it? Why spend so much money finding a cure just to do nothing with it? If it's really out there, known and perfected, there should never be a high-ranking politician or a well-connected billionaire businessman dying of cancer, since surely they'd have access to the cure, no? If they don't, who does? Who is using it? If no one is using it, why spend so much money looking for it? Why not just pocket the money and not actually do the research? This whole thing doesn't logically follow.

 

[Fishermanzz2]

I don't think that's how cancer works. Do you really think there's one magic cure for every type of cancer? Also, if we do have this magical cure, what is the government, who apparently is keeping it hidden, doing with it? Why spend so much money finding a cure just to do nothing with it? If it's really out there, known and perfected, there should never be a high-ranking politician or a well-connected billionaire businessman dying of cancer, since surely they'd have access to the cure, no? If they don't, who does? Who is using it? If no one is using it, why spend so much money looking for it? Why not just pocket the money and not actually do the research? This whole thing doesn't logically follow.

I believe there is a cure or cures for most types of cancer already. Not one magic cure or anything, but something that would work. And we could go back and forth, but nobody really knows. We don't know where that money is actually going. It "could" be going to research. It "could" be going towards other things. We just don't know. But that's just a theory. Either of us could be right or wrong. And just because someone is a billionaire that doesn't mean they'd be allowed access. It is the government after all. But all of this is just one big theory that's been going around for ages.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I believe there is a cure or cures for most types of cancer already. Not one magic cure or anything, but something that would work. And we could go back and forth, but nobody really knows. We don't know where that money is actually going. It "could" be going to research. It "could" be going towards other things. We just don't know. But that's just a theory. Either of us could be right or wrong. And just because someone is a billionaire that doesn't mean they'd be allowed access. It is the government after all. But all of this is just one big theory that's been going around for ages.

It's a "theory" in the sense that you have an idea about something, but I don't really see any supporting evidence for it. There has been progress made in treating cancer, so it's not like there's nothing to show for the research and money.

Now, I'm not accusing you of the following, but it is something that annoys me about people who think modern medicine is "evil." I don't agree with everything big pharma does, but I find it ironic when people say that modern medicine doesn't care about preventative treatment, only masking symptoms, but then they slam every vaccine known to man. Aren't vaccines pretty solid preventive treatment? Anyway, that's my rant, haha. This discussion reminded me of that for some reason.

 

[Fishermanzz2]

It's a "theory" in the sense that you have an idea about something, but I don't really see any supporting evidence for it. There has been progress made in treating cancer, so it's not like there's nothing to show for the research and money.

Now, I'm not accusing you of the following, but it is something that annoys me about people who think modern medicine is "evil." I don't agree with everything big pharma does, but I find it ironic when people say that modern medicine doesn't care about preventative treatment, only masking symptoms, but then they slam every vaccine known to man. Aren't vaccines pretty solid preventive treatment? Anyway, that's my rant, haha. This discussion reminded me of that for some reason.

Yeah I mean who knows the truth really, anyway. I'd like to think that all of the money that's supposed to go to cancer research is actually going to it. I just wish we could look at bank statements or something haha.

I don't think modern medicine is evil. I think it helps a great deal in some situations. Some vaccines are good. And others have caused issues.

 

[fueledpassion]

However, there is evidence of the American Cancer Society suppressing what was once thought to be an effective treatment for cancer by way of a special diet that boosted immunity to crazy high levels. This treatment was devised by a man named Gerson. His daughter wrote a book on the diet and I have a co-worker whose wife successfully defeated stage 2 cancer this diet while dealing with MS simultaneously.

While there isn't tons of evidence for conspiracy, we can't call people crazy for thinking it - the money, and therefore the motive, is there for it not to mention other industries such as the statin drug/cholesterol-reducing industry has black listed a number of doctors that spoke up against the BS associated with high cholesterol and heart attacks and LDL being the "bad lipoproteins". It's not. Inflammation is. And that is caused by things like sugar, dairy, hydrogenated oils (trans fats), nitrates from preservatives in pre-packaged meals and alcohol. Pretty much everything the typical American diet consists of is what causes inflammation, which causes problems with arterial health, which causes problems with plaque build up. It was an assinine conclusion based on one single study that high cholesterol is the sole indicator of bad heart health, lol. Correlation does not equal causation! LDL cholesterol, which makes up 2/3 of total cholesterol, is a function of lean mass really and all those foods I just listed are plentiful and HIGH in calories which means kost people with high cholesterol are unhealthy due to tons of inflammation and arterial damage. This very message I just spelled out has been collectively and concertedly muffled by the pharma industry. So I don't count people's theories on cancer conspiracy as just nonsense. It's possible as it already happens in other industries.

 

[Nac]

I wouldnt broadstroke conspiracy theories as nonsense per se, but if they are presented in an illogical, fallicious manner then its difficult not to take the p1ss and scoff at them...especially the anti-vax bollocks.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I wouldnt broadstroke conspiracy theories as nonsense per se, but if they are presented in an illogical, fallicious manner then its difficult not to take the p1ss and scoff at them...especially the anti-vax bollocks.

That's a good way to put it. It wouldn't surprise me if some things were pushed to the side or kept secret, but I really find it unlikely that there even is a single "cure to cancer," as in a universal cure for all cancers, let alone that anyone has actually found it and is keeping it secret.

 

[Stimguy]

Existing