The case for DMAA - thoughts?

Viator77

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I agree high-tech needs to win this case. there's plenty of evidence that dmaa is a naturally occurring compound. The FDA even approved it about five years ago so high-tech has a strong argument

As far as its safety, as long as it's used in Blends were people can't abused it otherwise they would get sick from all the other ingredients it's very safe. Problems arise when supplement companies or research chemical companies sell DMAA on its own so somebody could abuse the hell out of it

Don't quote me on this but I think about a year-and-a-half ago somebody did in fact die or go to the ER from doing just that. I know a few of the cases involving dmaa related ER visits showed co-administration of other stimululants- not sure if that meant caffeine, Rx stims, or street drugs.

I'm sure a few of you remember about 10 years ago a supplement company estrified fish oil which sold incredibly for about six months before the FDA sent them a cease-and-desist letter. Two years later a pharmaceutical company came out with Lovaza, which was the exact same estrefied fish oil, and prescribed to lower cholesterol and improve cardiovascular health. Then a few years after that the FDA either pulled it from the market or put a black box warning on it I'm not sure if it's even prescribed anymore

Of all the supplements the FDA banned over the last 17 years I'd say maybe 30% of them were truly dangerous, and few of those were actually dietary supplements but synthetic compounds that happened to occur in trace amounts in extremely obscure plants or animals. The original 1997 version of Lipokinetix, Phera Plex, & GBL/GHB come to mind. GBL & GHB are perfectly safe if used correctly but it was better to ban it then risk even one person being date raped. 3 years after GHB was made a schedule 1 drug, it was marketed to treat cataplexy under the trade name Xyrem and downgraded to CII.

Let's all hope that high tech disproves the old adage that you can't fight City Hall. This industry is long overdue for a win
 
fueledpassion

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I think the trick is doing it like the Kratom industry did - squeal so loud that the State Rep's get cold feet and tell the FDA/DEA to forget about banning it!

We should use the internet more to keep the public informed about how the FDA & DEA is in bed with pharmaceuticals..
 
BlkScorpnFit

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Folks, I'm just gonna throw this out there. It appears DMAA is now officially illegal! A buddy of mine who runs a local supplements shop, received word just a bit ago from his rep. He's saving 5 tubs of mesomorph for me, however it appears the F'n feds won...this is such BS! I hope HTP appeals! Sad day in the supplement industry...
 
BlkScorpnFit

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Folks, I'm just gonna throw this out there. It appears DMAA is now officially illegal! A buddy of mine who runs a local supplements shop, received word just a bit ago from his rep. He's saving 5 tubs of mesomorph for me, however it appears the F'n feds won...this is such BS! I hope HTP appeals! Sad day in the supplement industry...
Get it while you can...ASAP!
 

Alan1

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no definitive answers yet, the court has yet to approve/decide for the summary judgement, but I am feeling far more positive about the future of DMAA than I was before I got to see this info!
What are your thoughts now, considering the new judgement? An appeal likely in the works?
 
VaughnTrue

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What are your thoughts now, considering the new judgement? An appeal likely in the works?
I would highly assume Hi-Tech is planning to appeal the decision.
 
fueledpassion

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I would highly assume Hi-Tech is planning to appeal the decision.
I'm curious to know on what grounds the FDA was able to convince people that DMAA should be banned...?

These appointed department officials are nothing but un-elected politicians that are dispensable. Make a connection between their behavior and decisions and the potential demise of an elected official or a body of elected officials and they will receive the stonewall treatment and/or heads will roll to control PR damage. This is precisely what the Kratom industry did and like I said - we need to pull a Kratom maneuver and threaten bad publicity on those who oppose free trade. The only reason the safety problems that currently exist in the supplement and drug market is because the government restricts people from buying and selling whatever they want to and they compel businesses to bend, break or otherwise find loop holes or ways around the current laws which often leads to misleading labels or some sort of dishonesty in order to fly under the radar. It doesn't protect anyone to ban things. But maybe it isn't meant to be. After all, the kind of people that dabble in opiates and especially Kratom users are naturally independent thinkers and given that many opiate and opiate-like drugs/plants cause elevated dopamine & serotonin levels, it's almost expected that the Kratom community was/is capable of thinking for themselves and making educated connections between the DEA attempting to ban the plant actives and big pharma coincidentally getting ready to roll out a pure form of the actives in final phase clinical trials. Obviously there was foul play yet again in the "free market" - pharma's trying to corner the market.

Idiot Karl Marx forgot to write in his paper that while you can criminalize honest, upstanding citizens with the stroke of a pen, you can't abolish a demand for a product or service. Demand for things exist exclusively outside of government say-so. You don't just get to say, it's illegal, and people stop wanting it. No, there then comes black market or legal substitution, which often times leads to even worse potential safety hazards than the original drug/supplement.

Anyways, what we can do is stay educated and whenever someone brings up the topic, you should relentlessly educate those around you with authority on the subject, informing them of yet another example where the government overstepped their boundaries and are crooked as can be. That's all they are - crooked politicians.
 
The_Old_Guy

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I'm curious to know on what grounds the FDA was able to convince people that DMAA should be banned...?
From my quick, not a lawyer, never stayed at Holiday Inn reading of the judgement - it was because the Judge agreed that just because you manage to find an ingredient with a concentration of 3 parts per billion (or whatever the actual minuscule number was) in nature - DSHEA wasn't intended to be interpreted to allow you to then chemically synthesize it in massive quantities and put it in supplements.

But Hunt observed DMAA is only present, at best, in “minuscule amounts" and has never been extracted from geranium plants for a commercial purpose.

In using the term botanical in the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA), Hunt concluded “Congress intended that there must be at least some history of the substance in question having been extracted in usable quantities from a plant or a plant-like organism…."
De_eB mentioned this 100 times over in various threads - if you want to use DMAA then start building massive wharehouses where you can store your 10 Trillion tons of Geraniums - and start extracting.
 
VaughnTrue

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From my quick, not a lawyer, never stayed at Holiday Inn reading of the judgement - it was because the Judge agreed that just because you manage to find an ingredient with a concentration of 3 parts per billion (or whatever the actual minuscule number was) in nature - DSHEA wasn't intended to be interpreted to allow you to then chemically synthesize it in massive quantities and put it in supplements.



De_eB mentioned this 100 times over in various threads - if you want to use DMAA then start building massive wharehouses where you can store your 10 Trillion tons of Geraniums - and start extracting.
While youre not wrong in your comprehension of the ruling, it's not how DSHEA itself reads. If the government wants to put a minimum threshold on natural constituents, DSHEA will have to be amended to reflect that
 

Nac

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De_eB mentioned this 100 times over in various threads - if you want to use DMAA then start building massive wharehouses where you can store your 10 Trillion tons of Geraniums - and start extracting.
But if your synthetic facsimile is chemically (structurally) identical to the "natural" compound...why give a fuk? Im not seeing the argument/point here.

What "item of nature" are the andro compounds extracted from?
 
fueledpassion

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But as usual, the heart of the issue is lost in the legal efforts by the courts.

The real question is whether the health consequences are any more significant than other legal stimulants when abused and whether or not the stimulant is addictive. Regardless what any freakin law says, this is the entire existence of these various federal agencies - to bring good to society. Banning things that aren't addictive and don't have any immediate danger to consuming them is not helping our society but strangling our economy. Sure, snorting 300-400mg might put you in a hospital if it doesn't just make you high and tired but then again, EVERYTHING taken in too large of quantities presents near death experiences. Tylenol and NSAID's do. Caffeine can be lethal to someone with pre-existing heart problems. That's what all these regulatory agencies do - they are just like progressive thought - they over extend their purpose to a point that their existence becomes regressive to society. In another perspective, it's almost like our court systems and political leaders pick and choose the things that they appreciate and protect the freedom to consume those things while everything that threatens their position or isn't something they are in to gets the ban hammer.

We should legalize most things and focus on education. Things that aren't worth the risk will stop being sold because no one will want it. It's really that simple. Legalize cocaine and heroine tomorrow and I will NOT in any lifetime be seeking to use those drugs just because they are available to me.
 
VaughnTrue

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DMAA makes the average joe pretty mind alert and its been also used to treat blood leukemia for a pretty cheap price. off course it will face hurdles and legal woes.
did you just say DMAA can treat blood leukemia?


 
NurseGray

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DMAA makes the average joe pretty mind alert and its been also used to treat blood leukemia for a pretty cheap price. off course it will face hurdles and legal woes.
Do explain lol
 

sareea

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Can some one explain why the f# do some one need DMAA ?
I am doing awesome without it.
Good luck
 

slk28

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DMAA: Feeling like your the CEO of the gym rather than just being the client.
 
Ricky10

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I used to worry about whether FDA would get this stuff permanently banned but since then (about 12 months ago) I've found so many other better options for clarity and energy. I've found that DMAA is basically only good for late night training when I need the energy but plan to sleep a normal schedule. 75+mg almost undoubtedly causes a serious crash 2hrs after. So that is probably the only unique thing I find in this supplement nowadays.
I agree with this. We have basically all come to the consensus that the current DMAA products don't even have the same feel as they did years ago. Even still, the crash is quite real and not very pleasant. I much prefer the current alternatives...

The only thing upsetting to me is that the crooked FDA has took it upon themselves to put their nose where it doesn't belong once again. I think it is time to ban the FDA!
 

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I agree with this. We have basically all come to the consensus that the current DMAA products don't even have the same feel as they did years ago. Even still, the crash is quite real and not very pleasant. I much prefer the current alternatives...

The only thing upsetting to me is that the crooked FDA has took it upon themselves to put their nose where it doesn't belong once again. I think it is time to ban the FDA!
Well....if they were tested, w/out knowledge of the manufacturer, I think we would be in for a surprise (not really, because I think we all know something is up).
 
muscleupcrohn

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Well....if they were tested, w/out knowledge of the manufacturer, I think we would be in for a surprise (not really, because I think we all know something is up).
Why would HTP spend so much time and money fighting the FDA in court, and likely put a target on their head in the FDAs eyes, only to use something weaker than DMAA, which would also mean that they're mislabeling and/or spiking their products, which would potentially open them up for further issues. Can anyone answer this? Why fight so hard for DMAA, put it on the label, and then replace it with a weaker ingredient that itself likely has dubious legality and would constitute spiking and/or mislabeling?
 

shockrock3

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Why would HTP spend so much time and money fighting the FDA in court, and likely put a target on their head in the FDAs eyes, only to use something weaker than DMAA, which would also mean that they're mislabeling and/or spiking their products, which would potentially open them up for further issues. Can anyone answer this? Why fight so hard for DMAA, put it on the label, and then replace it with a weaker ingredient that itself likely has dubious legality and would constitute spiking and/or mislabeling?
I knew it was going to be you lol...just stop or I'll produce my pre-workout formula. Why....I don't know, talk to all the unhappy SP250 customers who say it makes them tired, the past few days people taking Dexaprine which when Iforce made it, it was the strongest damn tablet on the market, now people are saying they take 2 and tastes like candy...NOBODY should be able to take 2 real Dexaprine's, nobody.
This goes to the theory...was everything fckin spiked back in the day...pre's, fat burners, etc....like EVERYTHING? You don't find these threads started by people complaining about DMAA now vs then a little odd? I'm not saying "so and so" company is outright being deceitful...but as the complaints pour in, sooner or later it has to be addressed.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I knew it was going to be you lol...just stop or I'll produce my pre-workout formula. Why....I don't know, talk to all the unhappy SP250 customers who say it makes them tired, the past few days people taking Dexaprine which when Iforce made it, it was the strongest damn tablet on the market, now people are saying they take 2 and tastes like candy...NOBODY should be able to take 2 real Dexaprine's, nobody.
This goes to the theory...was everything fckin spiked back in the day...pre's, fat burners, etc....like EVERYTHING? You don't find these threads started by people complaining about DMAA now vs then a little odd? I'm not saying "so and so" company is outright being deceitful...but as the complaints pour in, sooner or later it has to be addressed.
So, basically you're saying that either nearly everything was spiked back then, or nearly everything is spiked now. Doesn't it seem more likely that things were spiked back then? And why spike something to make it weaker, but under no less scrutiny from the FDA? I remember some reputable user, I forget who, saying that he had some DMAA caps from PA a long time ago, and that they were not all that amazing. You've answered why you think it's being spiked/mislabeled/etc, but not why they're doing it. Can you please explain why they'd do this? Why spike/mislabel a product with a weaker ingredient, then engage in a long and costly legal battle to be able to use said ingredient?
 
jaces

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So, basically you're saying that either nearly everything was spiked back then, or nearly everything is spiked now. Doesn't it seem more likely that things were spiked back then? And why spike something to make it weaker, but under no less scrutiny from the FDA? I remember some reputable user, I forget who, saying that he had some DMAA caps from PA a long time ago, and that they were not all that amazing. You've answered why you think it's being spiked/mislabeled/etc, but not why they're doing it. Can you please explain why they'd do this? Why spike/mislabel a product with a weaker ingredient, then engage in a long and costly legal battle to be able to use said ingredient?
Just want to clarify that your asking why a company would put something weaker on the label but spike it with something stronger? Or is it the other way around?
 
muscleupcrohn

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Just want to clarify that your asking why a company would put something weaker on the label but spike it with something stronger? Or is it the other way around?
I'm asking why someone would put DMAA (strong) on the label, then replace it with something weaker, especially when putting DMAA on the label may put a target on your back from the FDA, and HTP is spending a lot of time and money fighting for DMAA. I know that products don't always meet label claims, often go cut costs, but I'd imagine they'd have to be on their "best behavior" when trying to take on the FDA.
 
jaces

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I think a reason might be to fool the user, what i mean by this is putting something in e.g beta alanine or niacin in so the user feels the tingling so thinks it works while seeing "something strong" on the label but i get what your saying now. Maybe its more of a publicity thing?
 
muscleupcrohn

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I think a reason might be to fool the user, what i mean by this is putting something in e.g beta alanine or niacin in so the user feels the tingling so thinks it works while seeing "something strong" on the label but i get what your saying now. Maybe its more of a publicity thing?
Yeah, having DMAA on the label may lead some people to buy it since it's "strong," but why not just use actual DMAA, since it'd be more effective and more likely to get repeat customers? Why bother fighting for the ability to use DMAA, then just use something weaker, which also opens you up to penalties for spiking/mislabeling products? Why not just use real DMAA, which, at this point, seems to be more effective, and also more "legal," or at least "less illegal" than spiking/mislabeling with something weaker.
 
jaces

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I think most consumers are looking for that feeling of it working.. you kmow pins and needles, bigger pump and so on, most arent even informed on what they are taking, and on a side note im a pharmacist @ the moment and here in SA its cheaper to buy ephedra tabs than caffein tabs so you would theoretically spike a caffeine drink with ephedra to reduce cost of the product and if its schedule 0 here it wont even be tested thus making you more money
 
jaces

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What im not getting is why fight for a stim like DMAA while there are var better ones to be concerned about?
 
rtmilburn

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I think most consumers are looking for that feeling of it working.. you kmow pins and needles, bigger pump and so on, most arent even informed on what they are taking, and on a side note im a pharmacist @ the moment and here in SA its cheaper to buy ephedra tabs than caffein tabs so you would theoretically spike a caffeine drink with ephedra to reduce cost of the product and if its schedule 0 here it wont even be tested thus making you more money
No trust me whatever​ was in the original dmaa products (jack3d, 1rm, dexprine, etc) you could FEEL, you knew you were talking "dmaa". It was strong and noticeable​. For me I preferred/thought it was stronger than my dexedrine script. And what is being sold now IS NOT THE SAME, without a doubt. Which is leading me and others to believe the what we use to take was not real dmaa and was spiked with something else or it had dmaa plus spiked with something​ else.
 
cobri66

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I have a hard time with the FDA micromanaging this DMAA issue when in the bigger scheme of things they allow cigarettes..
 
thebigt

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I have a hard time with the FDA micromanaging this DMAA issue when in the bigger scheme of things they allow cigarettes..
the government banned alcohol[prohibition] and what happened-we got gangs, a huge increase in crime and a criminal underground....the government banned drugs and what happened? there is a case to be made for hardcore drugs like narcotics and meth being banned BUT the government needs to focus on those drugs that truly are a menace to society, and stop trying to enforce banning of 'minor offenders' such as dmaa!!!
 
rtmilburn

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I have a hard time with the FDA micromanaging this DMAA issue when in the bigger scheme of things they allow cigarettes..
Ugh I know! The FDA nothing but a way for big pharma to make increase their pocket books, to get sh!ty politicians re-elected anymore and allowing big tobacco do what they want. They ban to prove a point, to protect big pharma, or ban to just ban. The is FDA does serve a real purpose but not the way they are running it. Sure hope Trump does what he says and audits government agencies to prove they are not wasting money. If he does the FDA sure has hell better be one of them along with the DEA, ATF, USDA, BOARDER PATROL, hell even Congress it self. But I for sure hope the FDA is as they fuk us a lot
 
Ricky10

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the government banned alcohol[prohibition] and what happened-we got gangs, a huge increase in crime and a criminal underground....the government banned drugs and what happened? there is a case to be made for hardcore drugs like narcotics and meth being banned BUT the government needs to focus on those drugs that truly are a menace to society, and stop trying to enforce banning of 'minor offenders' such as dmaa!!!
I know right. It is disgusting that they actually wasted resources on this. Blows my mind..
 
rtmilburn

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the government banned alcohol[prohibition] and what happened-we got gangs, a huge increase in crime and a criminal underground....the government banned drugs and what happened? there is a case to be made for hardcore drugs like narcotics and meth being banned BUT the government needs to focus on those drugs that truly are a menace to society, and stop trying to enforce banning of 'minor offenders' such as dmaa!!!
Honestly if it natural it should be legal. But control it and tax it like they are with weed. Do that nation wide and crime rate will decrease, I believe gang violence will also go down, and it will earn lots of money to cut into the national debt. Win win win. People will and always will find a way to get high why not make the best of it?
 
Ricky10

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I have a hard time with the FDA micromanaging this DMAA issue when in the bigger scheme of things they allow cigarettes..
All the disease/health problems caused by smoking means more sales of prescription drugs which equals money for Big Pharma.

It's all about special interest...
 
The_Old_Guy

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Why did they go after DMAA? LOL Because the majority of government employees are dimwits looking to make a name for themselves in the mediocrity in which they live each day (I was in that world for a while, but not a dimwit! :D) It could be something as simple as some middle manager was pissed that the fake Ephedra they seized, had to be given back, so now I'm gonna F with you about DMAA, LOL.

From my 1000 yard view, this does seem to be a fight on principle - DMAA is primarily in PrWO's and those cost like $5 to make - losing DMAA would have almost no impact monetarily IMO. So good on Jared for fighting on principle. I don't really care about DMAA, as Caffeine is good enough for me - but FDA over-reach definitely needs to be kept in check. Sort of like the Martin Niemöller's "Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me" As far as the cost to fight this - eh.... a company as big as HTP most likely has in house council, so it's just part of their yearly salary if that's the case.
 
fueledpassion

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The only time my current DMAA stash resembled the old Jack3d stuff is when I did:

75-100mg DMAA
25mcg T3
75mg Armodafinil

Yes, it took that much BUT I was totally in the zone. Now, my body shrugs that stack off like its normal. My advice - NEVER dabble with Kratom. It will make DMAA seem like one of those Crystal Light powdered drinks and then after you get hooked, your body forgets how to operate normally without it. Pretty much an opiate. Might as well snort a line of Cocaine now if I want an "energy buzz" in the gym.


To be clear, I would never condone cocaine use as a "pick me up". Not only is the dosing tolerance much tighter and more dangerous if you get out of the correct dosing, but it also kills anabolic activity that even the strongest of steroids has a tough time combatting. A good way to stay skinny fat is to take opiates, lol.
 
VaughnTrue

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The only time my current DMAA stash resembled the old Jack3d stuff is when I did:

75-100mg DMAA
25mcg T3
75mg Armodafinil

Yes, it took that much BUT I was totally in the zone. Now, my body shrugs that stack off like its normal. My advice - NEVER dabble with Kratom. It will make DMAA seem like one of those Crystal Light powdered drinks and then after you get hooked, your body forgets how to operate normally without it. Pretty much an opiate. Might as well snort a line of Cocaine now if I want an "energy buzz" in the gym.
i never noticed any effects whatsoever from kratom
 
fueledpassion

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i never noticed any effects whatsoever from kratom
Do you have a history with opiates? Most people with a history have to take really high doses. The stuff I had ~ 2-4g is all I could handle at once and at first, it was a measly 1g dosing scheme, once every 3 or 4 days max.

I also believe that the brand of my Kratom made all the difference, TBH. MMM Speciosa is nothing to mess with. Expensive but down right amazing in potency. It could be laced. I should try another brand some time.
 
VaughnTrue

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Do you have a history with opiates? Most people with a history have to take really high doses. The stuff I had ~ 2-4g is all I could handle at once and at first, it was a measly 1g dosing scheme, once every 3 or 4 days max.

I also believe that the brand of my Kratom made all the difference, TBH. MMM Speciosa is nothing to mess with. Expensive but down right amazing in potency. It could be laced. I should try another brand some time.
i don't, but what's weird is that opiates have next to no effect on me. When I get prescribed them I rarely take them as I get no benefit/relief gfrom them
 
fueledpassion

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i don't, but what's weird is that opiates have next to no effect on me. When I get prescribed them I rarely take them as I get no benefit/relief gfrom them
well that sums it up then. If stronger stuff doesn't do anything then Kratom wouldn't either. Nonetheless, the Plantation Maeng Da I had took a large dump on DMAA as far as energy, mental clarity, creativity and mood went. I was high but 150% coherent at the same time. Problem is, (and this is where DMAA shines IMO) is that Kratom had some baggage with it called withdrawals. BAD withdrawals for myself. DMAA's baggage is done after a long, healthy nap or just sleeping on it overnight.
 
resrch3d

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The only time my current DMAA stash resembled the old Jack3d stuff is when I did:

75-100mg DMAA
25mcg T3
75mg Armodafinil

Yes, it took that much BUT I was totally in the zone. Now, my body shrugs that stack off like its normal. My advice - NEVER dabble with Kratom. It will make DMAA seem like one of those Crystal Light powdered drinks and then after you get hooked, your body forgets how to operate normally without it. Pretty much an opiate. Might as well snort a line of Cocaine now if I want an "energy buzz" in the gym.


To be clear, I would never condone cocaine use as a "pick me up". Not only is the dosing tolerance much tighter and more dangerous if you get out of the correct dosing, but it also kills anabolic activity that even the strongest of steroids has a tough time combatting. A good way to stay skinny fat is to take opiates, lol.
Are you saying taking kratom before during and or after some type of usage with DMAA would down regulate the efficacy of DMAA and or other amines?
 
resrch3d

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When and if DMAA gets officially removed from the product line up, what's the next set of ingredient(s) to make up for its loss? Is HTP going replace with the DMHA and N-phenethyldimethylamine stack? Do they have another better replacement to these? Having DMAA is what sets them ahead right now, must have a back up plan...
 
Viator77

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I think the trick is doing it like the Kratom industry did - squeal so loud that the State Rep's get cold feet and tell the FDA/DEA to forget about banning it!

We should use the internet more to keep the public informed about how the FDA & DEA is in bed with pharmaceuticals..
Apples & oranges... the Kratom ban got defeated because literally thousands of reputable research scientists and pharmacologist from around the county lobbied politicians, the FDA, and the DEA on behalf of Kratom. Besides Kratom products are all plant derived nobody sells synthetic Kratom alkaloids, well they do but it's extremely cost-prohibitive for people to use them recreationally. As opposed to dmaa which in its supplement form is almost entirely synthetically produced in a lab. besides even if it's banned in supplements we all know it's still widely available as a research chem. For responsible adults it's probably safer to get that way because you know exactly how much your dosing (for non human research of course) and how often.

personally I'm just going to stick to buying bronkaid & caffeine at my local pharmacy as the ECA stack blows dmaa out of the water. I don't know how the rest of you feel but I can't seem to find the sweet spot for dmaa. It either feels like I didn't take enough for took way too much

although I completely agree with the second part of your statement. the problem is not enough people know about or care about semi obscure stimulants like dmaa as opposed to kratom which has dozens of legitimate medical uses and some pretty powerful proponents behind it
 

carguy123

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When and if DMAA gets officially removed from the product line up, what's the next set of ingredient(s) to make up for its loss? Is HTP going replace with the DMHA and N-phenethyldimethylamine stack? Do they have another better replacement to these? Having DMAA is what sets them ahead right now, must have a back up plan...
Gaspari is suppose to be coming out with SP250 w/o DMAA and I believe there is already a version of Mesomorph without DMAA (there was alteast a year or so ago) so they already have a few products in the works/out.
 
VaughnTrue

VaughnTrue

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When and if DMAA gets officially removed from the product line up, what's the next set of ingredient(s) to make up for its loss? Is HTP going replace with the DMHA and N-phenethyldimethylamine stack? Do they have another better replacement to these? Having DMAA is what sets them ahead right now, must have a back up plan...
Gaspari is suppose to be coming out with SP250 w/o DMAA and I believe there is already a version of Mesomorph without DMAA (there was alteast a year or so ago) so they already have a few products in the works/out.
one thing Hi-Tech knows is stims...IF we lose DMAA, we have plenty of other avenues to take ;)
 

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