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stims that don't use the adrenaline/epinephrine/cortisol pathway?

dsohei

Member
Stims like hordenine/pea or dmaa activate the sympathetic ns, I'm looking for "stims" that don't. Been researching cordyceps as it has adenosine analogues, and coffee as it binds to adenosine receptor sites... Any ideas?
 
Coffee still activates the SNS..but it also acts by antagonizing adenosine receptors in the brain. The major issue is that it does nothing to increase Ado metabolism. So when caffeine is metabolized, you have a ton of Ado floating around waiting to bind receptors. Additionally, you get an upregulation of Ado receptors with caffeine use (tolerance).


And as for other stims... you'd be hard pressed to find a stimulant that doesn't have some sort of effect on the SNS/Adrenal axis.

Br
 
dsohei said:
Yes, that's why I'm looking for "least worst". T3 supplementation would be along thesr lines yes?
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Don't think that taking thyroid hormone won't have an impact on your CNS/Adrenal axis....all these neuroendocrine systems work in concert with eachother.
 
ZiR RED said:
Don't think that taking thyroid hormone won't have an impact on your CNS/Adrenal axis....all these neuroendocrine systems work in concert with eachother.
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Yes but at least thyroid doesn't suppress the immune system as some other supplemental hormones such as corticosteroids.
 
Bnatural said:
going to be somewhat hard to find as most will at least trigger one of these to a certain point.

are you trying to limit adrenal fatigue or what is your purpose for this?
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Personally I believe adrenal fatigue is a symptom of hypothyroidism, and also that chronic elevation of adrenaline, epinephrine, and cortisol are unhealthy (although they feel very good short term)
 
mr.cooper69 said:
This. You can still create a stimulation-effect without using a CNS stimulant. ALCAR, Huperzine A, and DMAE come to mind.
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Yes I'm looking into those as well, thanks. I've tried the above and its hit or miss. I ordered some noopept to try (its a semi-racetam)
 
dsohei said:
Personally I believe adrenal fatigue is a symptom of hypothyroidism, and also that chronic elevation of adrenaline, epinephrine, and cortisol are unhealthy (although they feel very good short term)
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I'm curious as to why you might think this, as adrenal insufficiency is often associated with hyperthyroidism:

Invalid Link Removed 2011 Jan-Feb;17(1):85-90.
[h=1]Autoimmune hyperthyroidism due to secondary adrenal insufficiency: resolution with glucocorticoids.[/h]Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed.
[h=3]Source[/h]Department of Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Bone Diseases, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, New York, USA. [email protected]

[h=3]Abstract[/h][h=4]OBJECTIVE:[/h]To describe the course of autoimmune hyperthyroid disease in a patient with corticotropin (ACTH) deficiency treated with glucocorticoids.
[h=4]METHODS:[/h]We report the clinical presentation, laboratory data, imaging studies, and management of a patient with weight loss, fatigue, apathy, hallucinations, and arthritis.
[h=4]RESULTS:[/h]Autoimmune hyperthyroidism (positive thyroperoxidase and thyroglobulin antibodies and borderline positive thyrotropin receptor antibody) was diagnosed in a 71-year-old woman. New psychotic symptoms prompted brain magnetic resonance imaging, which revealed a partially empty sella. Undetectable morning cortisol, undetectable ACTH, and failure to stimulate cortisol with synthetic ACTH (cosyntropin 250 mcg) secured the diagnosis of long-standing secondary adrenal insufficiency. Hydrocortisone replacement improved the patient's symptoms, resolved the thyroid disease, and decreased thyroid antibody titers. In retrospect, the patient recalled severe postpartum hemorrhage requiring blood transfusion at age 38 years. A Sheehan event probably occurred 33 years before the patient presented with corticotropin deficiency. Hyperthyroidism accelerated cortisol metabolism and provoked symptoms of adrenal insufficiency.
[h=4]CONCLUSIONS:[/h]The hypocortisolemic state may precipitate hyperimmunity and autoimmune thyroid disease. Rapid resolution of hyperthyroidism and decreased thyroid antibody titers with glucocorticoid treatment support this hypothesis.


PMID:20841313 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Invalid Link Removed 2006 Sep-Oct;12(5):572.
[h=1]Reversible subclinical hypothyroidism in the presence of adrenal insufficiency.[/h]Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed.
[h=3]Source[/h]Department of Pediatrics, Division of Pediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism, The Children's Hospital of Alabama, University of Alabama School of Medicine, Birmingham, Alabama 35233, USA.

[h=3]Abstract[/h][h=4]OBJECTIVE:[/h]To describe 3 different scenarios of reversible hypothyroidism in young patients with adrenal insufficiency.
[h=4]METHODS:[/h]We present 3 case reports of patients with adrenal insufficiency--one with delayed puberty, the second with type 1 diabetes and poor weight gain, and the third with hypoglycemia-related seizures and glucocorticoid deficiency--who had biochemical evidence of hypothyroidism.
[h=4]RESULTS:[/h]Our first patient (case 1) initially had a mildly elevated thyrotropin (thyroid-stimulating hormone or TSH) level and a normal free thyroxine (FT4) level that, on follow-up assessment, had progressed to persistent mild elevation of TSH and low FT4 concentration. The other 2 patients (cases 2 and 3) had low FT4 and mildly elevated TSH values at the time of diagnosis of adrenal insufficiency. In all 3 patients, the results of thyroid function tests normalized with use of physiologic doses of adrenal hormone replacement therapy, without thyroid hormone replacement. All 3 patients remained euthyroid after 4, 3, and 1 year of follow-up, respectively.
[h=4]CONCLUSION:[/h]These observations add insights into the complexities of the thyroadrenal interactions. These examples are important because thyroid hormone replacement in the setting of adrenal insufficiency could be unwarranted.


PMID:17002934 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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I'm not denying that adrenal overuse and burnout can occur in any number of metabolic states. However those rare (and lucky) hyper thyroid individuals tend to just need more nutrients, esp. Vit a. When an individual is hypo, sub clinical hypo, or auto immune hypo, usually their adrenaline/epinephrine/cortisol chemicals have been chronically used up as their body attempted to jury rig the failing system. By the time the wheels have fallen off, there's not enough juice left to cover up all the problems, and hopefully this leads to a proper diagnosis of hypo. Sadly though, esp if someone is sub clinical, they will be diagnosed with adrenal fatigue and given prednisone or cortisone, which will hurt them long term and not address the upstream cause.
 
Care to provide some research to elaborate and substantiate? I'm not doubting, but all I can find are whack doctors and nutritionists trying to sell books and supplements and making poorly substantiated claims.
 
ZiR RED said:
Care to provide some research to elaborate and substantiate? I'm not doubting, but all I can find are whack doctors and nutritionists trying to sell books and supplements and making poorly substantiated claims.
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Research is very poor in this area. If you work with these clients or suffer from the same issues you will have plenty of data. If you don't then it just becomes a vague myth "out there". This isn't about supplements, because one of the best ways to heal "adrenal fatigue" is with proper diet and t3. Again, self-application gives the best data as waiting for properly executed studies and mainstream acceptance is often too long for those suffering now.
 
dsohei said:
Research is very poor in this area. If you work with these clients or suffer from the same issues you will have plenty of data. If you don't then it just becomes a vague myth "out there". This isn't about supplements, because one of the best ways to heal "adrenal fatigue" is with proper diet and t3. Again, self-application gives the best data as waiting for properly executed studies and mainstream acceptance is often too long for those suffering now.
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why would someone want to add t3 in for adrenal fatigue.
the better approach is to quit supplement usage for a certain period of time.
 
dsohei said:
Research is very poor in this area. If you work with these clients or suffer from the same issues you will have plenty of data. If you don't then it just becomes a vague myth "out there". This isn't about supplements, because one of the best ways to heal "adrenal fatigue" is with proper diet and t3. Again, self-application gives the best data as waiting for properly executed studies and mainstream acceptance is often too long for those suffering now.
Click to expand...

Self medication, while perhaps in the users mind is a good idea, is often ill suited for treating chronic disease. And this is not "data", this is n=1 anecdotal evidence. There is no control, nor is there any measurements of why a certain intervention or drug may be working.

Further, application of thyroid hormone or hyperthyriodism appears to promote adrenal insufficiency. Here we see that T3 blocks down steam signalling by ACTH and compromises steroidalgenesis in the adrenal glands.

Invalid Link Removed 1998 Feb;274(2 Pt 1):E238-45.
[h=1]Acute effects of thyroid hormones on the production of adrenal cAMP and corticosterone in male rats.[/h]Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed, Invalid Link Removed.
[h=3]Source[/h]Department of Physiology, National Yang-Ming University, Taipei, Taiwan, Republic of China.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]The acute effects of thyroid hormones on glucocorticoid secretion were studied. Venous blood samples were collected from male rats after they received intravenous 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (T3) or thyroxine (T4). Zona fasciculata-reticularis (ZFR) cells were treated with adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), T3, T4, ACTH plus T3, or ACTH plus T4 at 37 degrees C for 2 h. Corticosterone concentrations in plasma and cell media, and also adenosine 3',5'-cyclic monophosphate (cAMP) production in ZFR cells in the presence of 3-isobutyl-1-methylxanthine, were determined. The effects of thyroid hormones on the activities of steroidogenic enzymes of ZFR cells were measured by the amounts of intermediate steroidal products separated by thin-layer chromatography. Administration of T3 and T4 suppressed the basal and the ACTH-stimulated levels of plasma corticosterone. In ZFR cells, both thyroid hormones inhibited ACTH-stimulated corticosterone secretion, but the basal corticosterone was inhibited only with T3 > 10(-10) M or T4 > 10(-8) M. Likewise, T3 or T4 at 10(-7) M inhibited the basal- and ACTH-stimulated levels of intracellular cAMP. Physiological doses of T3 and T4 decreased the activities of 3 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, 21-hydroxylase, and 11 beta-hydroxylase. These results suggest that thyroid hormones counteract ACTH in adrenal steroidogenesis through their inhibition of cAMP production in ZFR cells.


PMID:9486153 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Free full text
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I hate the term "adrenal fatigue", it just makes absolutely no sense to us it plus gives the illusion that all one needs to do is allow their adrenals to "rest" and all will get better. HPA dysfunction (the way the problem should be describe) is a real problem some have

ZiR RED said:
Self medication, while perhaps in the users mind is a good idea, is often ill suited for treating chronic disease.
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For the most part I agree due to the lack of research one is willing to do and/or the lack of understanding one might have but this doesnt apply universally as I can think of a few individuals who are more than capable in self medicating
 
Ginseng, B12, Synephrine, Green tea (?), Sulbutamine (?), Low Dosed Alpha-Yohimbine (?), Rhodiola, Adaptagens

dsohei said:
Stims like hordenine/pea or dmaa activate the sympathetic ns, I'm looking for "stims" that don't. Been researching cordyceps as it has adenosine analogues, and coffee as it binds to adenosine receptor sites... Any ideas?
Click to expand...
 
Bnatural said:
why would someone want to add t3 in for adrenal fatigue.
the better approach is to quit supplement usage for a certain period of time.
Click to expand...

Because adrenal fatigue is probably thyroid fatigue. But a person would need to check their thyroid status. And judo josh is right on, thinking that just "resting" will somehow restore ppl is funny. We are also talking about different populations, probably most on this forum are in above average health, genetically and socially lucky.
 
Bnatural said:
why would someone want to add t3 in for adrenal fatigue.
the better approach is to quit supplement usage for a certain period of time.
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BNatty, long time, no see ;) I think that stopping supplements and going back to the basics along with some cognitive awareness on what was the cause for the adrenal fatigue will help out quite a bit. I am reluctant to stop taking pills and powders, but when I did and just gave it a rest it did help.

I am a strong advocate of CoQ10 for adrenal fatigue.
 
ZiR RED said:
Self medication, while perhaps in the users mind is a good idea, is often ill suited for treating chronic disease. And this is not "data", this is n=1 anecdotal evidence. There is no control, nor is there any measurements of why a certain intervention or drug may be working.

Further, application of thyroid hormone or hyperthyriodism appears to promote adrenal insufficiency. Here we see that T3 blocks down steam signalling by ACTH and compromises steroidalgenesis in the adrenal glands.
Click to expand...

So u don't value n=1, that's great. And if u are the guy in your profile pic then u don't need to. Like it or not, you are a lucky one. As for the study, I would have to wonder if there aren't some groups if people who believe that pumping out adrenaline 24/7 is desirable. Hell it feels great.
 
JudoJosh said:
And yet you continue to refer to it as adrenal fatigue.

Not sure how you are combing these. HPA dysfunction is not the same as hypothyroidism
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Personally I do not believe in adrenal fatigue, the common language is inexact and there's probably better ways to explain what's going on. I was diagnosed with AF and the Cortisone solution became a problem in itself. Hpa dysfunction can probably occur as a cause or effect type issue, in hypothyroidism, the body uses excess adrenaline/etc to compensate. If the body is always asking for more stress hormones, don't u think that would be a problem and lead to dysregulation?
Maybe I think that hpa dysfunction is a downstream consequence of thyroid dysfunction.
Anyway this thread was not intended to be about "adrenal" issues or thyroid issues. My op was about alternative stimulant type substances.
 
dsohei said:
I plan on trying this out
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I was very careful in using it, as I am on a low dose of Librium everyday and am extremely sensetive to stimulants that have effects on the peripheral nervous system. A cup of coffee can have me all twitchy at this point. I feel the urge to do things while on Andro Drive and have the energy to make it happen. It doesn't effect my anxiety at all. I think anxiety is mostly due to the lack of will to act and the fact that there is a lot of procrastination and regret that the opportunity had been missed, etc. and it's a vicious circle to break. Be sure to start at the lowest dose and give it a week. If the effects are where you want, don't up the dose.
 
I agree 100% w/ FoG.
When I was on AD I never felt the need for caffeine or any other stimulants like I normally would
 
McBurly said:
I agree 100% w/ FoG.
When I was on AD I never felt the need for caffeine or any other stimulants like I normally would
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That's great, as I am a bit over reliant on caffeine lately.
 
dsohei said:
So u don't value n=1, that's great. And if u are the guy in your profile pic then u don't need to. Like it or not, you are a lucky one. As for the study, I would have to wonder if there aren't some groups if people who believe that pumping out adrenaline 24/7 is desirable. Hell it feels great.
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Its not that I don't value n=1, its more so inferring if intervention XX works for person A and then trying to infer that it will work onto person B. The problem is we don't know if it is X1 that is working, X2 that is working, or if it is only a combination of both. We also don't know why it works, or the baseline of person A compared to person B....and so on down the line.



Br
 
dsohei said:
I'm not denying that adrenal overuse and burnout can occur in any number of metabolic states. However those rare (and lucky) hyper thyroid individuals tend to just need more nutrients, esp. Vit a. When an individual is hypo, sub clinical hypo, or auto immune hypo, usually their adrenaline/epinephrine/cortisol chemicals have been chronically used up as their body attempted to jury rig the failing system. By the time the wheels have fallen off, there's not enough juice left to cover up all the problems, and hopefully this leads to a proper diagnosis of hypo. Sadly though, esp if someone is sub clinical, they will be diagnosed with adrenal fatigue and given prednisone or cortisone, which will hurt them long term and not address the upstream cause.
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How is somebody with hyperthyroidism lucky?

Having very high thyroids below the hyperthyroidism mark I'd like to know where my catabolic weight loss abilities pay off?
 
ZiR RED said:
Its not that I don't value n=1, its more so inferring if intervention XX works for person A and then trying to infer that it will work onto person B. The problem is we don't know if it is X1 that is working, X2 that is working, or if it is only a combination of both. We also don't know why it works, or the baseline of person A compared to person B....and so on down the line.

Br
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It's true, I think everyone has to experiment on their own with everything.
 
SuppBro said:
How is somebody with hyperthyroidism lucky?

Having very high thyroids below the hyperthyroidism mark I'd like to know where my catabolic weight loss abilities pay off?
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I'd trade my hypothyroidism for hyperthyroidism right now.
 
dsohei said:
I'd trade my hypothyroidism for hyperthyroidism right now.
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But is somebody with either hypo or hyper thyroidism lucky over others with just above average thyroids or higher, but not sub hyper or hyper thyroidism?


So if I am lucky being sub hyper. How do I utilize it. 3 years and I only have an average BMI of LBM (BMI is trash, just an idea of overall weight after 3 years). I get mentally exhausted easily and my hands are always shakey. I get commented about being shakey sometimes which screamed meth head at people back when I was much lighter than I am now.
 
dsohei said:
Yes, that's why I'm looking for "least worst". T3 supplementation would be along thesr lines yes?
Click to expand...

That's going to be a general metabolic stimulant, so yeah, I guess that would qualify. Idk if it's effects as a stim are really going to be on par with classical stims though.
 
SuppBro said:
But is somebody with either hypo or hyper thyroidism lucky over others with just above average thyroids or higher, but not sub hyper or hyper thyroidism?

So if I am lucky being sub hyper. How do I utilize it. 3 years and I only have an average BMI of LBM (BMI is trash, just an idea of overall weight after 3 years). I get mentally exhausted easily and my hands are always shakey. I get commented about being shakey sometimes which screamed meth head at people back when I was much lighter than I am now.
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A guy I know online is hyper, and treats it by eating lots of calories and simple carbs, extra vitamin a, and makes sure to get extra micronutrients esp. from liver and shellfish. He follows a ray peat style of eating tailored to his personal thyroid function and activity level. He surfer a lot so sun exposure is accounted for with all his extra vitamin a.
 
J19891 said:
That's going to be a general metabolic stimulant, so yeah, I guess that would qualify. Idk if it's effects as a stim are really going to be on par with classical stims though.
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Yeah, I've been on it for a few months now, slowly upping my dosage. It's interesting, more of a long term boost to metabolism.
 
Agreed but the potential for addiction makes this a poor choice :(

smt1 said:
nicotine.

okay, it has indirect adrenergic effects, but the main pathway is through nAChRs
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dsohei said:
Because adrenal fatigue is probably thyroid fatigue. But a person would need to check their thyroid status. And judo josh is right on, thinking that just "resting" will somehow restore ppl is funny. We are also talking about different populations, probably most on this forum are in above average health, genetically and socially lucky.
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this thread has developed a bit further than this comment, but i do want to chime in.

the body tends to restore itself to near normal levels without the use of supplements to help combat the issue. most of the time, people tend to compound the issue by adding supplements to the mix and then not stopping.

also, addressing adrenal fatigue as "probably thyroid fatigue" would be quite the blanket statement, and sounds like a best guess if anything.
this is the issue of suppression and suppressing one's own body to not allow it to stabilize.
 
Bnatural said:
this thread has developed a bit further than this comment, but i do want to chime in.

the body tends to restore itself to near normal levels without the use of supplements to help combat the issue. most of the time, people tend to compound the issue by adding supplements to the mix and then not stopping.

also, addressing adrenal fatigue as "probably thyroid fatigue" would be quite the blanket statement, and sounds like a best guess if anything.
this is the issue of suppression and suppressing one's own body to not allow it to stabilize.
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Thinking that the body will heal itself is very utopian. Body needs the right resources, and needs to be able to use them, 2 very big ifs. I haven't magically healed in the years I've been ill. Stabilization is a myth.
 
dsohei said:
Thinking that the body will heal itself is very utopian. Body needs the right resources, and needs to be able to use them, 2 very big ifs. I haven't magically healed in the years I've been ill. Stabilization is a myth.
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i truly hope the medical field is not your profession or goal direction.
if you allow your body time to heal properly, it can overcome quite a bit.
stabilization is far from a myth. i'm not sure why you started a thread only to offer up a debate, but you seem to go against the grain based on your responses.
i guess this is where science tends to allow pros and cons for almost everything and each can choose their direction (see: creatine).
good luck in your endeavors.
 
Bnatural said:
i truly hope the medical field is not your profession or goal direction.
if you allow your body time to heal properly, it can overcome quite a bit.
stabilization is far from a myth. i'm not sure why you started a thread only to offer up a debate, but you seem to go against the grain based on your responses.
i guess this is where science tends to allow pros and cons for almost everything and each can choose their direction (see: creatine).
good luck in your endeavors.
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I have extensive personal experience that directly opposes your idea.
 
Whacked said:
Agreed but the potential for addiction makes this a poor choice :(
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Isn't caffeine similar though? I think nicotine screws with blood sugar so its not on my short list of things to try.
 
zaire2d said:
Subultiamine, CDP-Choline, Alpha-GPC + Huperzine ...
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Hmm, I tend to get choline headaches easily, I can never know if one pill of a-gpc or cdp will push me into the red zone. I do like the feeling of huperzine but again it is cholinergic, so shouldn't be used long term, and that time period of safety vs danger isn't certain.
 
Whacked said:
Ginseng, B12, Synephrine, Green tea (?), Sulbutamine (?), Low Dosed Alpha-Yohimbine (?), Rhodiola, Adaptagens
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Ginseng tends to push adrenaline, I eat a lot of liver so b12 is full unless I'm somehow not utilizing it correctly, the adaptogens which include rhodiola and ginseng tend to play around with adrenaline and thus aren't what I'm looking for although I have taken long courses f them in the past, they seemed to merely trick me into thinking I was fine.
 
dsohei said:
I have extensive personal experience that directly opposes your idea.
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personal is the key word.
results can vary greatly from one person to the next due to various issues.
i can offer personal experience as an opinion and offer my thoughts on my experience, but one person and their personal experience means very little on the grand scale. your data would be listed out with 100 others and then research data could be drawn.
i can understand if you feel your body doesn't respond to this supplement or another supplement, but you cannot generalize it and decide that it applies to all. that is how it your previous posts seemed to be directed.
 
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