SARM's, MK, & GW : A User's Guide

Hastur said:
My thoughts exactly, brother! Plus, there is always something new around the corner. It's like Radar1ne, a few months back I never thought I'd use RAD-140 because it wasn't available. Now, I'm 11 days into using it! There will always be a compound out there to try, my friend!
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True
 
SARM's, MK, & GW : A User's Guide

I'm finishing my SRM Andarine by Xcel sports in another week. Decent results but I would stick to atleast 50mg S4 next time or don't do it at all.
 
zman86 said:
I'm finishing my SRM Andarine by Xcel sports in another week. Decent results but I would stick to atleast 50mg S4 next time or don't do it at all.
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What were your gainz like and the effects of the compound? I tried out their LGD and highly doubt it was good quality(got good gainz but at the dosage I was at it should have been better).
 
CJNator said:
What were your gainz like and the effects of the compound? I tried out their LGD and highly doubt it was good quality(got good gainz but at the dosage I was at it should have been better).
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I def felt the effects of the mk677, sleep improved, bloating, and muscles seem to recover well. I'm also staying pretty lean despite gaining weight... Maybe the effects of the S4?
 
zman86 said:
I def felt the effects of the mk677, sleep improved, bloating, and muscles seem to recover well. I'm also staying pretty lean despite gaining weight... Maybe the effects of the S4?
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S4 does decreases estrogen, what about your night vision?
 
CJNator said:
S4 does decreases estrogen, what about your night vision?
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No vision issues... But then again at 3 caps a day I'm only getting 36mg of S4 not enough.

My joints are aching alittle especially my right elbow.
 
SARM's, MK, & GW : A User's Guide

Agreed... it may be required depending how susceptible to gyno you are... for me i don't get gyno (so far anyway) so it would likely not affect me, I would still have on on hand however.

If your not sure and its a first cycle my advice would be to get some and see how you get on without using it and start if symptoms appear.

EDIT: spelling
 
1kerry said:
Im confused, almost everyone says Osta can cause gyno, and an AI should be at hand...
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You should always have a pharma grade ai on hand when using any kind of hormonal products. You never know what will increase your estrogen. You could have completed 10 ph cycles sucessfully with no issues then get gyno on your 11th.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
I think the key words here might be 'requires', implying necessity, and 'can', implying possibility.
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grinnell27 said:
Agreed... it may be required depending how susceptible to gyno you are... for me i don't get gyno (so far anyway) so it would likely not affect me, I would still have on on hand however.

If your not sure and its a first cycle my advice would be to get some and see how you get on without using it and start if symptoms appear.

EDIT: spelling
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yates84 said:
You should always have a pharma grade ai on hand when using any kind of hormonal products. You never know what will increase your estrogen. You could have completed 10 ph cycles sucessfully with no issues then get gyno on your 11th.
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These guys nailed it. Always have an AI on hand. Just because something doesn't cause symptoms in one person doesn't mean it will be the same case next cycle, let alone the same case for someone else. Take every precaution, and listen to your body.
 
Would osta/LGD be better used before a PH cycle or after?? Background is I've been on Osta for 6 weeks and planned poorly and am all out of Osta tomorrow so I wanted to hop on triumphalis for the next 4 and ride it out
 
JONimal said:
Would osta/LGD be better used before a PH cycle or after?? Background is I've been on Osta for 6 weeks and planned poorly and am all out of Osta tomorrow so I wanted to hop on triumphalis for the next 4 and ride it out
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Sarms first imo. I don't see a sarm cycle being very effective after a ph cycle. I'm running 8 weeks of osta doing a cut and bridging into a ph bulk myself
 
yates84 said:
Sarms first imo. I don't see a sarm cycle being very effective after a ph cycle. I'm running 8 weeks of osta doing a cut and bridging into a ph bulk myself
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That's exactly how I'd do it. You start with your weaker compounds and bridge into your stronger compounds. Just make sure you have cycle support and whatnot on hand for the Triumphalis. You said you planned it poorly, I sure hope you have at least TUDCA, JONimal.
 
Just wondering here if osta or lgd cause suppression or shut down why would u continue use of other compounds that will cause suppression or shut down too?
 
hamdysayed said:
Just wondering here if osta or lgd cause suppression or shut down why would u continue use of other compounds that will cause suppression or shut down too?
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Because you're already suppressed/shutdown. Really, I wouldn't personally recommend a cycle longer than 6 weeks for most compounds, but it varies compound to compound. And people are going to do what they want to do, regardless of peoples input. I'm only doing a 6-week SARM/PH/DS cycle, and then 4-6 weeks of PCT, maybe 8 weeks. Then taking time off equal to my Cycle and PCT combined before doing another cycle. It's a healthy rule of thumb. But you'll see guys running 8-weeks, 12-weeks. Again, it depends on the compound, and of course the person. I can't recommend such actions myself, nor would I follow such actions myself.
 
Hastur said:
Because you're already suppressed/shutdown. Really, I wouldn't personally recommend a cycle longer than 6 weeks for most compounds, but it varies compound to compound. And people are going to do what they want to do, regardless of peoples input. I'm only doing a 6-week SARM/PH/DS cycle, and then 4-6 weeks of PCT, maybe 8 weeks. Then taking time off equal to my Cycle and PCT combined before doing another cycle. It's a healthy rule of thumb. But you'll see guys running 8-weeks, 12-weeks. Again, it depends on the compound, and of course the person. I can't recommend such actions myself, nor would I follow such actions myself.
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Would you stay with that rule of thumb even for ostarine bridged to epistane. I know those take a bit to kick in.
 
BroByron said:
Would you stay with that rule of thumb even for ostarine bridged to epistane. I know those take a bit to kick in.
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Yes, definitely. Sarms before ph, I really don't see a practical way to bridge from a ph to a sarm. You would probably lose ph gains and feel like crap if bridging to a sarm. This is personal opinion btw, never have seen a ph bridged to a sarm in real life
 
yates84 said:
Yes, definitely. Sarms before ph, I really don't see a practical way to bridge from a ph to a sarm. You would probably lose ph gains and feel like crap if bridging to a sarm. This is personal opinion btw, never have seen a ph bridged to a sarm in real life
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Yes this is what I am saying Ostarine to epistane. But referring to what hastur's opinion about nothing longer than a 6 week cycle.
 
BroByron said:
Yes this is what I am saying Ostarine to epistane. But referring to what hastur's opinion about nothing longer than a 6 week cycle.
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If you're going to be shutdown you might as well run the cycle as long as you want (within reason). You can deal with the shutdown during pct. Shutdown is shutdown, a few extra weeks of cycling isn't going to make it any worse. Hastur has a good idea by playing it safe, I just like to run cycles a little longer
 
yates84 said:
If you're going to be shutdown you might as well run the cycle as long as you want (within reason). You can deal with the shutdown during pct. Shutdown is shutdown, a few extra weeks of cycling isn't going to make it any worse. Hastur has a good idea by playing it safe, I just like to run cycles a little longer
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I agree with this statement as well. The only time this wouldn't apply is when running strong methylated compounds.

If you're running 2 step PH's & SARMS, longer cycles can be run. I would just take the necessary precautions
to protect your liver, because even non methylated PH's can effect the liver when taken in high doses and/or
for longer periods.

So taking @ least 250mg of Tudca a day would be a good idea, in addition to taking NAC. i would also include
a good Cycle Support Sup like CEL Cycle Assist or OL Arm1care. Because when it comes to your health, its
better to be safe then sorry.

Longer cycles have to be planned out properly, with proper supports and proper pct. Last year i started a 6
week Osta Cycle bridged into a 12 week DS/PH cycle for a total of 18 weeks. I ran Tudca @ 500mg per day,
NAC @ 600mg per day. Liver Values were in the normal range after PCT bloodwork.




*Disclaimer: This is just my opinion. I am not a doctor, nor should you take this as medical advice. You should always see
your doctor and get bloodwork before starting any new diet, supplement or PH/SARM cycle.
 
vujade said:
I agree with this statement as well. The only time this wouldn't apply is when running strong methylated compounds.

If you're running 2 step PH's & SARMS, longer cycles can be run. I would just take the necessary precautions
to protect your liver, because even non methylated PH's can effect the liver when taken in high doses and/or
for longer periods.

So taking @ least 250mg of Tudca a day would be a good idea, in addition to taking NAC. i would also include
a good Cycle Support Sup like CEL Cycle Assist or OL Arm1care. Because when it comes to your health, its
better to be safe then sorry.

Longer cycles have to be planned out properly, with proper supports and proper pct. Last year i started a 6
week Osta Cycle bridged into a 12 week DS/PH cycle for a total of 18 weeks. I ran Tudca @ 500mg per day,
NAC @ 600mg per day. Liver Values were in the normal range after PCT bloodwork.




*Disclaimer: This is just my opinion. I am not a doctor, nor should you take this as medical advice. You should always see
your doctor and get bloodwork before starting any new diet, supplement or PH/SARM cycle.
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I like your disclaimer, I should really have something like that in my signature. I just started a 8 week osta cycle and am going to bridge into an 8 week ph cycle of some sort myself. I completely agree with cycle support being run throughout as well, you can never be too safe while cycling
 
yates84 said:
I like your disclaimer, I should really have something like that in my signature.
I just started a 8 week osta cycle and am going to bridge into an 8 week ph cycle of some sort myself.
I completely agree with cycle support being run throughout as well, you can never be too safe while cycling
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Thx bro. I'd love to have the disclaimer in my signature, but don't have enough room... :bigok:

The reason i put that there, is i know people respect a lot of what i say (not all I'm, I can ruffle feathers sometimes)
but i don't want younger impressionable members taking what i say out of context and thinking that is ok to do,
especially without bloodwork.

I would never do an 18 week cycle without knowing what my liver, cholesterol and other vitals looked like before
starting. You don't want to put unnecessary damage on your body, if it is not in a healthy condition to begin with.

Thats why doctors do a full medical exam before putting someone on TRT/HRT. They want to know how healthy
you are, so they can gauge how the treatment is effecting you. If you have no baseline, then you don't know how
it affectedd you, or if it even did hurt you. You may have already been in a bad condition before starting and didn't know.

I was young, naive, and stupid at one time in my life and don't want to see people make the same mistakes i made,
nor should they think Im still making them.

I remember when PH's first hit the market in the late 90's. We were popping them without knowing the possible sides.
We knew nothing about cycle care, or proper PCT. I don't even think there were any companies that even made
all-in-one Cycle Supports supplements back then.
 
vujade said:
Thx bro. I'd love to have the disclaimer in my signature, but don't have enough room... :bigok:

The reason i put that there, is i know people respect a lot of what i say (not all I'm, I can ruffle feathers sometimes)
but i don't want younger impressionable members taking what i say out of context and thinking that is ok to do,
especially without bloodwork.

I would never do an 18 week cycle without knowing what my liver, cholesterol and other vitals looked like before
starting. You don't want to put unnecessary damage on your body, if it is not in a healthy condition to begin with.

Thats why doctors do a full medical exam before putting someone on TRT/HRT. They want to know how healthy
you are, so they can gauge how the treatment is effecting you. If you have no baseline, then you don't know how
it affectedd you, or if it even did hurt you. You may have already been in a bad condition before starting and didn't know.

I was young, naive, and stupid at one time in my life and don't want to see people make the same mistakes i made,
nor should they think Im still making them.

I remember when PH's first hit the market in the late 90's. We were popping them without knowing the possible sides.
We knew nothing about cycle care, or proper PCT. I don't even think there were any companies that even made
all-in-one Cycle Supports supplements back then.
Click to expand...

So true! We have both paid our dues and know about what our bodies are capable of handling. That being said, bloodwork is still the key to detect any underlying issues. Remember kids, start small and assess your tolerance to steroids before you jump into the deep end. Time on + pct = time off but bloodwork is the only way to know exactly if you are ready or not. Good advice vujade
 
yates84 said:
Yes, definitely. Sarms before ph, I really don't see a practical way to bridge from a ph to a sarm. You would probably lose ph gains and feel like crap if bridging to a sarm. This is personal opinion btw, never have seen a ph bridged to a sarm in real life
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wouldn't go from a strongly suppressive compound to a lesser suppressing compound, it just doesn't make sense. And I haven't seen it in real life either.

BroByron said:
Yes this is what I am saying Ostarine to epistane. But referring to what hastur's opinion about nothing longer than a 6 week cycle.
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Well, 6 weeks is usually a duration recommended for methylated compounds that are liver toxic. You could do 4 weeks Ostarine and then 4-6 weeks Epistane in that order because Ostarine isn't liver toxic like Epistane is. However, personally, I still wouldn't run a cycle over 6 weeks. You COULD stack them, it might be hard to see the Ostarine with as strong as Epistane is, but Ostarine raises E2 and Epistane is known to lower E2. You'd get the joint benefits of Ostarine, which would be advantageous because Epistane can be rough on the joints. It's what I would do, personally.

yates84 said:
If you're going to be shutdown you might as well run the cycle as long as you want (within reason). You can deal with the shutdown during pct. Shutdown is shutdown, a few extra weeks of cycling isn't going to make it any worse. Hastur has a good idea by playing it safe, I just like to run cycles a little longer
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Agreed. Again, this is personal preference. Just because I wouldn't run a long cycle doesn't mean you CAN'T. It's a personal decision. I play it safe, and advocate the same. But others run long cycles and have no issues whatsoever!

vujade said:
I agree with this statement as well. The only time this wouldn't apply is when running strong methylated compounds.

If you're running 2 step PH's & SARMS, longer cycles can be run. I would just take the necessary precautions
to protect your liver, because even non methylated PH's can effect the liver when taken in high doses and/or
for longer periods.

So taking @ least 250mg of Tudca a day would be a good idea, in addition to taking NAC. i would also include
a good Cycle Support Sup like CEL Cycle Assist or OL Arm1care. Because when it comes to your health, its
better to be safe then sorry.

Longer cycles have to be planned out properly, with proper supports and proper pct. Last year i started a 6
week Osta Cycle bridged into a 12 week DS/PH cycle for a total of 18 weeks. I ran Tudca @ 500mg per day,
NAC @ 600mg per day. Liver Values were in the normal range after PCT bloodwork.




*Disclaimer: This is just my opinion. I am not a doctor, nor should you take this as medical advice. You should always see
your doctor and get bloodwork before starting any new diet, supplement or PH/SARM cycle.
Click to expand...

Wow, dude. That's a hell of a cycle. You ran methylated compounds for 12 weeks!? Even with TUDCA and other cycle support, I would be hesitant. But obvious it worked for you! Obviously you are far more seasoned than I!

yates84 said:
I like your disclaimer, I should really have something like that in my signature. I just started a 8 week osta cycle and am going to bridge into an 8 week ph cycle of some sort myself. I completely agree with cycle support being run throughout as well, you can never be too safe while cycling
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True, you can never be too safe! I hope you have a killer PH cycle, bro!

yates84 said:
So true! We have both paid our dues and know about what our bodies are capable of handling. That being said, bloodwork is still the key to detect any underlying issues. Remember kids, start small and assess your tolerance to steroids before you jump into the deep end. Time on + pct = time off but bloodwork is the only way to know exactly if you are ready or not. Good advice vujade
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It's still an excellent rule of thumb, and worth repeating. Time On + PCT = Time Off. Blood work is the only way to PROVE that you're back within normal ranges, despite how you feel. People feel good, but their blood work may be poor. People feel poor, but their blood work is good. I've seen it both ways, and it's confounding. But with how unique we all are, it's highly individual.
 
Hastur said:
Wow, dude. That's a hell of a cycle. You ran methylated compounds for 12 weeks!? Even with TUDCA and other cycle support,
I would be hesitant. But obvious it worked for you! Obviously you are far more seasoned than I!
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I did not run oral methyls for 12 weeks.. The only methyl i was running was Trest and thats 7a methylated, not 17a.
The rest were non methylated.

I longest i've run an oral methylated compound was 8 weeks, and that was Anavar, which is a very mild 17a,
probably less toxic then Epistane.
 
vujade said:
I did not run oral methyls for 12 weeks.. The only methyl i was running was Trest and thats 7a methylated, not 17a.
The rest were non methylated.

I longest i've run an oral methylated compound was 8 weeks, and that was Anavar, which is a very mild 17a,
probably less toxic then Epistane.
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Ahh, I suspected that wasn't the case. Just took a leap from PH cycle to methylated. How were your results? And yes, Anavar is less toxic than Epistane. There are studies showing people running Anavar far longer than you could run Epistane... And I mean studies, not logs. It's supposedly good stuff, never tried it myself.
 
Hastur Yates vujade. All awesome info guys you have no idea super helpful this thread has been for not only SARM info but PCT and bridging. This thread is gold
 
JONimal said:
Hastur Yates vujade. All awesome info guys you have no idea super helpful this thread has been for not only SARM info but PCT and bridging. This thread is gold
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Absolutely! I know we're all more than happy to help! If you have ANY questions regarding SARMS, be it Ostarine, LGD, RAD, S-4, or the other generally associated compounds MK-677 and GW, don't be afraid to bring them here! We'll do all we can to help!
 
JONimal said:
Hastur Yates vujade. All awesome info guys you have no idea super helpful this thread has been for not only SARM info but PCT and bridging. This thread is gold
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That's why I started this thread, to help get the record straight so people can sucessfully utilize these wonderful compounds. Glad you found this info helpful
 
vujade said:
Thx bro. I'd love to have the disclaimer in my signature, but don't have enough room... :bigok:

The reason i put that there, is i know people respect a lot of what i say (not all I'm, I can ruffle feathers sometimes)
but i don't want younger impressionable members taking what i say out of context and thinking that is ok to do,
especially without bloodwork.

I would never do an 18 week cycle without knowing what my liver, cholesterol and other vitals looked like before
starting. You don't want to put unnecessary damage on your body, if it is not in a healthy condition to begin with.

Thats why doctors do a full medical exam before putting someone on TRT/HRT. They want to know how healthy
you are, so they can gauge how the treatment is effecting you. If you have no baseline, then you don't know how
it affectedd you, or if it even did hurt you. You may have already been in a bad condition before starting and didn't know.

I was young, naive, and stupid at one time in my life and don't want to see people make the same mistakes i made,
nor should they think Im still making them.

I remember when PH's first hit the market in the late 90's. We were popping them without knowing the possible sides.
We knew nothing about cycle care, or proper PCT. I don't even think there were any companies that even made
all-in-one Cycle Supports supplements back then.
Click to expand...

very helpful your information sir, on point as yates84 =D

BTW you guys recommend to add TUDCA on a SERM PCT? PLanning to do maybe a 3-4 weeks clomid PCT after my 12 week Ostar1ne cycle =D
 
1kerry said:
very helpful your information sir, on point as yates84 =D

BTW you guys recommend to add TUDCA on a SERM PCT? PLanning to do maybe a 3-4 weeks clomid PCT after my 12 week Ostar1ne cycle =D
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Tudca is only really necessary with methylated compounds.that being said, It is a good staple supplement for liver health and 250mg a day Is not a bad idea
 
yates84 said:
Tudca is only really necessary with methylated compounds.that being said, It is a good staple supplement for liver health and 250mg a day Is not a bad idea
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Agreed. I'd save it for liver toxic compounds like Halodrol or Epistane, anything methylated. SERMS aren't liver toxic, so it's not necessary, however some people continue TUDCA in PCT to help their liver bounce back quicker after a cycle of a methylated compound.
 
Hastur said:
Agreed. I'd save it for liver toxic compounds like Halodrol or Epistane, anything methylated. SERMS aren't liver toxic, so it's not necessary, however some people continue TUDCA in PCT to help their liver bounce back quicker after a cycle of a methylated compound.
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Disagree about SERMS. They are in fact liver toxic.
 
There isn't data on this that I know of, on hepatotoxicity of selective androgen receptor modulators.
But, with long half lives, it may be a concern depending on how the compound is metabolized
 
jbryand101b said:
There isn't data on this that I know of, on hepatotoxicity of selective androgen receptor modulators.
But, with long half lives, it may be a concern depending on how the compound is metabolized
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There's no actual studies that I know of, but I have seen a few logs post liver values following ostarine cycles and they didn't seem negatively affected. Not much to go on, admittedly.
 
T-Bone said:
Disagree about SERMS. They are in fact liver toxic.
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T-Bone said:
Here is one,

Just gotta google.
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Ahh yes, one case report, done on a one elderly woman at the age 75, regarding one SERM, showing an association between Tamoxifen and liver damage after the woman had a radical mastectomy following breast carcinoma and bony metastases. I think the fact that it's still prescribed today, 31 years later, says a lot about the weight of that study. Typically studies done with a sample size of one on elderly woman who've undergone several surgeries following cancer don't apply to the greater populace. Thus why it's probably still prescribed. And obviously there are many more SERMS available on the market. I never mentioned Tamoxifen by name, nor do I advocate Tamoxifen personally.

jbryand101b said:
There isn't data on this that I know of, on hepatotoxicity of selective androgen receptor modulators.
But, with long half lives, it may be a concern depending on how the compound is metabolized
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warpyfunch said:
There's no actual studies that I know of, but I have seen a few logs post liver values following ostarine cycles and they didn't seem negatively affected. Not much to go on, admittedly.
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Agreed on both accounts. I haven't seen data indicating otherwise.
 
So if I were to do a 4 week short cycle of Ostarine only, I would be dosing 15/25/25/25 (planning on ending here but may drag on longer if it feels right)
Would a SERM be absolutely necessary? I plan on having a real AI on hand just in case any sides do come up on cycle. But when planning the PCT I keep running into conflicted views. What would be the best possible setup for PCT for my short cycle.
 
nick76 said:
So if I were to do a 4 week short cycle of Ostarine only, I would be dosing 15/25/25/25 (planning on ending here but may drag on longer if it feels right)
Would a SERM be absolutely necessary? I plan on having a real AI on hand just in case any sides do come up on cycle. But when planning the PCT I keep running into conflicted views. What would be the best possible setup for PCT for my short cycle.
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I'd say this is borderline, but I would do a short clomid pct to be safe. You might be able to get away with BLR Rebirth if you can't acquire anything else, but I trust clomid more, and why risk it? On the one hand, 4 weeks is pretty short. On the other hand 25mg is a pretty high dose. If you get bloods, you'll know for sure.

Why only a 4 week cycle, though? Osta definitely needs some time to kick in, and works best when you give it time to do its thing.
 
I'd suggest to run a longer Cycle on lower doses so the Copound can kick in. The lower dose would probably get the HPTA to shutdown not as bad, so you can probably recover just fine with an AI ans some Testbooster, better thought with added Rebirth.
 
nick76 said:
So if I were to do a 4 week short cycle of Ostarine only, I would be dosing 15/25/25/25 (planning on ending here but may drag on longer if it feels right)
Would a SERM be absolutely necessary? I plan on having a real AI on hand just in case any sides do come up on cycle. But when planning the PCT I keep running into conflicted views. What would be the best possible setup for PCT for my short cycle.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't go any shorter than 6 weeks with osta, it just starts to get good in the 3rd week! You could run 6 weeks at 15mg and get away with running just super pct but a serm is always preferred. I like osta cycles to be at least 8 weeks myself
 
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