Running Serm inverse to ADT??

ndfan said:
DR.D, I'm putting together a test e 500mg/wk, eq 400mg/wk, and dbol 40mg/d with adex.25mg/d cycle and was wondering if the post cycle therapy you suggested in this thread will work with this?
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Well, not knowing how long your cycle is, I'd say yes. It's a good general purpose PCT protocol. Of course, I'd maybe throw in an extra week of Clomid at 100mg (before starting the Nolva) if your cycle is longer that 8 wks or substitute toremifene as my only SERM now that it's easily available. Also, I might finish on 50mg of ATD since many people are reporting libido issues at 75. Adding some ActivaTe and keeping the DHEA at 200mg all the way through offer some protection against the high dose ACT libido drop in my experience. Otherwise, it's a solid PCT even if you don't change a thing.
 
Simply awesome thread!
Dr D ive read your pct suggestions and its just what I need and probably many board members here, but any advice and what to take "during" the short to medium cycles to keep you in check ie: test support. Do you recomend HCG any where?
 
garrithv said:
Simply awesome thread!
Dr D ive read your post cycle therapy suggestions and its just what I need and probably many board members here, but any advice and what to take "during" the short to medium cycles to keep you in check ie: test support. Do you recomend HCG any where?
Click to expand...

If the cycle is a month or less (depending on what you're using too), generally I say no hCG, but I've had very good results with ATD, Reload, and 4OH-T in particular in low doses over 2 and 3 month cycles. Suppression is greatly reduced even when non-aromatizables are used. In fact, after a month of 500mg 4OH-T cyp/wk, my testicles are often bigger that before I started! Formestane has a similar effect but not as dramatic.
 
I was just reading throught this thread, and damn!!
Can you give me some input on my cycle?

Pre: 50mg Zol for 6 days
Wk1: 2mg Mega TRN, 100mg Mega ZOL
Wk2: 2mg Mega TRN, 150mg Mega ZOL, EC
Wk3: 4mg Mega TRN, 150mg Mega ZOL, EC
Wk4: 4mg Mega TRN, 200mg Mega ZOL

Wk5: 40mg Nolva, 25mg RXT, 3 caps Lean Xtreme, Sesamin
Wk6: 30mg Nolva, 50mg RXT, 2 caps Lean Xtreme, Sesamin
Wk7: 20mg Nolva, 50mg RXT, 2 caps Lean Xtreme, Sesamin, EC
Wk8: 10mg Nolva, 75mg RXT, 2 caps Lean Xtreme, Sesamin, EC

Support; Saw Palmetto, Red Yeast Rice, Hawthorn Berry, CoQ10, NAC+GXR/R-ALA
Others; Multivitamin, Digestive Enzymes, EC

Diet: 250g Protein, 250g Carbs, 100g Fat

DR.D, can you comment on my post cycle therapy and overall cycle if you can? Its going to be my first.
 
Frank N Steroid said:
... DR.D, can you comment on my post cycle therapy and overall cycle if you can? Its going to be my first.
Click to expand...

It looks pretty good to be honest! Without knowing any specifics about you, there may be room for slight tweaking in certain areas, but you really can't go wrong as it is now.
 
Frank N Steroid said:
I was just reading throught this thread, and damn!!
Can you give me some input on my cycle?

Pre: 50mg Zol for 6 days
Wk1: 2mg Mega TRN, 100mg Mega ZOL
Wk2: 2mg Mega TRN, 150mg Mega ZOL, EC
Wk3: 4mg Mega TRN, 150mg Mega ZOL, EC
Wk4: 4mg Mega TRN, 200mg Mega ZOL

Wk5: 40mg Nolva, 25mg RXT, 3 caps Lean Xtreme, Sesamin
Wk6: 30mg Nolva, 50mg RXT, 2 caps Lean Xtreme, Sesamin
Wk7: 20mg Nolva, 50mg RXT, 2 caps Lean Xtreme, Sesamin, EC
Wk8: 10mg Nolva, 75mg RXT, 2 caps Lean Xtreme, Sesamin, EC

Support; Saw Palmetto, Red Yeast Rice, Hawthorn Berry, CoQ10, NAC+GXR/R-ALA
Others; Multivitamin, Digestive Enzymes, EC

Diet: 250g Protein, 250g Carbs, 100g Fat

DR.D, can you comment on my post cycle therapy and overall cycle if you can? Its going to be my first.
Click to expand...

Looks pretty good like Dr.D said with the limited info you gave us (about yourself). The only place you might feel yucky is week 2 with 30mg nolva and 50mg RXT. You might want to keep it at 25 for the first two weeks so your libido isn't shot. Tribulus can help in this area as well. You will love the lean extreme, it works great in PCT and it is the staple of all of my PCT's. I can also vouch for how well Rebound works, you just have to make sure its used in the right manner or it can have negative effects on libido, joints, mass, etc.

Also instead of buying all those support supplements why not try Cycle Support by our company, Anabolic Innovations? (in my sig).
 
DR.D said:
It looks pretty good to be honest! Without knowing any specifics about you, there may be room for slight tweaking in certain areas, but you really can't go wrong as it is now.
Click to expand...
21 y/o
215 @ 18% bodyfat
~40 pounds of fat and ~175 pounds of lean body mass
I'd really like to drop 10 pounds of raw fat and preserve / gain some lean body mass, but to be real, i wouldn't worry too much about losing muscle
 
LakeMountD said:
Looks pretty good like Dr.D said with the limited info you gave us (about yourself). The only place you might feel yucky is week 2 with 30mg nolva and 50mg RXT. You might want to keep it at 25 for the first two weeks so your libido isn't shot. Tribulus can help in this area as well. You will love the lean extreme, it works great in post cycle therapy and it is the staple of all of my PCT's. I can also vouch for how well Rebound works, you just have to make sure its used in the right manner or it can have negative effects on libido, joints, mass, etc.

Also instead of buying all those support supplements why not try Cycle Support by our company, Anabolic Innovations? (in my sig).
Click to expand...
I looked at that stuff, I guess when I start a more serious cycle I will definatly get into it, but i CANT STAND drinks of any sort. I had digestive issues, and a bad taste gets to me.
Right now, my support is about $35-40 for the whole cycle.

Do you think I should even run the Rebound? this doesnt seem like such a hard core cycle comparing to others

I dont want to run anything for libido and etc because I want to know how my recovery is going(for ex, week 1, i cant get it up so im probably shut down, week 2, its up again woohoo)
 
I've never tried LMD's product, but it sure does appear to have all the right stuff in it. I'd still use the RXT, even if it's only 25mg/d, even for a little cycle like yours.
 
DR.D said:
I've never tried LMD's product, but it sure does appear to have all the right stuff in it. I'd still use the RXT, even if it's only 25mg/d, even for a little cycle like yours.
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I agree with Dr.D I wasn't saying cut it out, but instead just make sure to guage libido in the second week if you decide on 50mg that week. I can tell you how well RXT works. A lot of people talk about other AI's so much, such as Letro (for on cycle of course) etc. but RXT has always done me good. It is hard to gauge recovery by libido sometimes because of the supps you take in PCT. Testosterone isn't directly related to libido (I forgot where the heck this study is but I have seen it).
 
DR.D
for on cycle gyno prevention does this look good.

.5mcg cab 2x's a week
.25mg letro eod
3 rebound reloaded ed

nolva wouldn't help any would it?
 
ABiLiTY said:
DR.D
for on cycle gyno prevention does this look good.

.5mcg cab 2x's a week
.25mg letro eod
3 rebound reloaded ed

nolva wouldn't help any would it?
Click to expand...

What kind of cycle are you running?

Cabergoline is usually used on nandrolone cycles as it is a prolactin inhibitor, but can also lower progesterone receptors. The dosage isn't .5mcg however it is 500mcg per week (250mcg twice per week is the norm).

.25mg letro EOD should be fine unless you are running a massive amount of test, some prefer to bump it to .50mg letro EOD but the lower the dose the better as the estrogen can help with gains/joints/libido.

You DEFINITELY won't need 3 RXT's per day for gyno prevention especially if you are using letro, use one or the other not both.

Nolva is fine for prevention (if NOT using a nandrolone in your cycle), but nolva isn't usually used to reverse the effects.
 
Frank N Steroid said:
What for?
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It's just a great test booster. I always seem to get the best results stacking it with a SERM in PCT, even with low doses. Both RXT and Nolva can be rough on libido, but 25mg RXT is not that bad, even with Nolva.
 
DR.D said:
It's just a great test booster. I always seem to get the best results stacking it with a SERM in post cycle therapy, even with low doses. Both RXT and Nolva can be rough on libido, but 25mg RXT is not that bad, even with Nolva.
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Exactamundo ;)

Don't worry Frank N Steroid, later on in the PCT you can ramp that dosage up and still get the positive libido effects from it :).
 
ABiLiTY said:
DR.D
for on cycle gyno prevention does this look good.

.5mcg cab 2x's a week
.25mg letro eod
3 rebound reloaded ed

nolva wouldn't help any would it?
Click to expand...

The cab is only to normalize test in or just after PCT or kill prolactin levels if your lactating on or off cycle. 0.25mg letro is the max needed on cycle IMO, unless you pumping over a gram of test per week. 3 RR's is probably way too much. It would be OK if that's all your using, but the letro is plenty on cycle I think to control estrogen conversion.
 
I had been using cab at 1mg eod for probably 6 weeks or so, probably 2-3 weeks prior to at .5 eod. I ment .5mg not mcg on my post.

cycle is
test prop 1-6 150mg eod
masteron 1-6 100 eod
superdrol 1-3 20mg
PP 4-6 20 mg

Masteron and superdrol might be a bit redundant but im really trying to keep estrogen low.
I'm going to play it by ear though.
 
ABiLiTY said:
Dr d,

should i drop the cab now?

and just go letro, and maybe 2 or 1 RR?

thanks.
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No, I'd keep it going with the cab if you're having no sides (nausea, nasal congestion or cognitive impairment). I think 0.5mg twice wkly is good for long term maintenance though once you control the lactation.

You can stack 1-2 RRs/d and save the letro for your next cycle, or use just low dose letro now with no RR, it's up to you. You don't need a complicated regiment right now though, just keep it as simple as reasonably achieveable while still getting the effect you need. Know what I mean?
 
Dr D
off the bat i had a little bit of sensitivity in my nips. Its weird i would have it in one for a day then it would go away. then the next day it would come in the other. it hasen't been much though. A little numbness today. puffyness is about the same, maybe slightly more then off cycle. the little bumps underneath are about the same as they have been. I am getting lots of prostatic fluid though, i dont know whats up with that.
 
ABiLiTY said:
Dr D
off the bat i had a little bit of sensitivity in my nips. Its weird i would have it in one for a day then it would go away. then the next day it would come in the other. it hasen't been much though. A little numbness today. puffyness is about the same, maybe slightly more then off cycle. the little bumps underneath are about the same as they have been. I am getting lots of prostatic fluid though, i dont know whats up with that.
Click to expand...

STOP TOUCHING YOUR NIPPLES. :trout: Nipple stimulation promotes lactation.
 
Last edited:
ndfan said:
D.R.D, I'm going to do a 3 or 4 week superdrol next cycle and going to go with toremifene for post cycle therapy, How does this look?

WK1
day 1-2 120mg tore
3-5 90mg
6-7 60mg
WK2
day 1-4 60mg
5-7 30mg
WK3
30mg
wk4
30mg

along with
rebound reloaded, DHEA, LX like you stated in post 4 but shortened. Also will use proper support supps.
Click to expand...



ND,

Just curious how things are working out for you. I am planning on running the same routine.
 
ABiLiTY said:
Dr D
off the bat i had a little bit of sensitivity in my nips. Its weird i would have it in one for a day then it would go away. then the next day it would come in the other. it hasen't been much though. A little numbness today. puffyness is about the same, maybe slightly more then off cycle. the little bumps underneath are about the same as they have been. I am getting lots of prostatic fluid though, i dont know whats up with that.
Click to expand...

That sounds bad. You may wish to abandon this cycle if rapid improvement does not occur in the next wk or so. Also, I'd skip the PP for sure. That's just asking for trouble in your case. What do you mean exactly by prostatic fluid? Are you leaking down there too?!
 
yea right. i havent touched my nipples in probably 6 weeks.
yea im leaking down there. there is another thread somewhere on this board about some other guys having this problem (along with my self).
Im going to the doctor today.

this pisses me off. I do everything right and I've been off 6 monthes. I know a kid that runs 10 weeks of dbol drinks 2 bottles of soco a day along with crack and heroin does no pct and has no health problems. Amongst everything else being wrong with his regimine, and still being the most jacked kid i know.

DrD, theres a good chance i'll abondon this cycle, i might try to hold the superdrol out till sunday making it a 2 week cycle so i can get something out of it.

In this case, what would you recomend for pct?

Thanks again for your help.
 
ok, just got back form the doc.

I don't even know if it is related to the things stated above, but the dr found what he thinks to be a cyst in my epididymis. He doesn't think it is cancerous which is good news.
I don't think it is gear related.

I will be needing an ultrasound, and another blood test. the blood test will be for: ESR, westergren (?), hemoglobin, rgt(?) and a metabolic panel.
I don't know what all of these are.

Now i think im going to try to get the blood test on friday.

I've been "on" for 8 days.

What kind of post cycle therapy should i do?
 
If you're on short esters and SD, I don't think you really need a PCT. I am worried that we should wait and see what the next round of tests reveal before I suggest anything else my friend.
 
ABiLiTY said:
ok, i will be getting the tests this week, and will let you know asap.
Click to expand...

Please do keep me posted. Don't worry man, we'll get you straightened out somehow.
 
ability i cant believe you went back " On " with the continuing problems, this recent series of events should prove as a sort of signal. In the end you will have to live with your self so do as you will but at what cost are you willing to continue regaurdless of what your body is telling you.
 
I had a question. With gyno that is produced by progest., and not directly estrogen, what are the signs? Other than actually lactating?

I finished a 3 week PP cycle, been doing PCT for 1.5 weeks. My nipples are still puffy. They aren't sore, or itchy, I've had pre-pubescent gyno and know the signs. I'm thinking it's either fat deposits around my nipples or maybe progest? I'm not showing any signs of lactating. I figure if it was estrogen related puffyness, my nolvadex/ATD would have taken care of it.

40mg Nolva / 25mg ATD week 1
30mg Nolva / 50mg ATD week 2
20mg Nolva / 50mg ATD week 3
 
RenegadeRows said:
I had a question. With gyno that is produced by progest., and not directly estrogen, what are the signs? Other than actually lactating?

I finished a 3 week PP cycle, been doing post cycle therapy for 1.5 weeks. My nipples are still puffy. They aren't sore, or itchy, I've had pre-pubescent gyno and know the signs. I'm thinking it's either fat deposits around my nipples or maybe progest? I'm not showing any signs of lactating. I figure if it was estrogen related puffyness, my nolvadex/ATD would have taken care of it.

40mg Nolva / 25mg ATD week 1
30mg Nolva / 50mg ATD week 2
20mg Nolva / 50mg ATD week 3
Click to expand...

Aye i have some nip puffyness thats residual from my halo cycle 5 months ago. Wondering about using some cab. Maybe im just fatter but the fat deposit, gyno thing could be an issue.
 
DR.D anything else you would add to this.

3-4 week PP cycle, using cycle support while on.
I usually take Shock Therapy in the morningings is it ok to use while on cycle?

For PCT Toremifene @

Week 1 - Day 1-2 120mg Tore, Day 3-5 90mg Tore.
Week 2 - 60mg Tore.
Week 3 - 60mg Tore.
week 4 - 30mg Tore.

I was also thinking about adding ActivaTe or Rebound Reloaded.
I also have heard that combining Toremifene/ Aromasin was good to use on PCT?

Thanks.
 
Dr D

out of all the things i was\am taking, which hits the prostate the hardest?
mast, sdrol, prop, letro, cab, rebound reloaded? do fat burners or ephedra have any effect?

had the ultra sound today.

thanks again.
 
cobra77 said:
DR.D anything else you would add to this.

3-4 week PP cycle, using cycle support while on.
I usually take Shock Therapy in the morningings is it ok to use while on cycle?

For post cycle therapy Toremifene @

Week 1 - Day 1-2 120mg Tore, Day 3-5 90mg Tore.
Week 2 - 60mg Tore.
Week 3 - 60mg Tore.
week 4 - 30mg Tore.

I was also thinking about adding ActivaTe or Rebound Reloaded.
I also have heard that combining Toremifene/ Aromasin was good to use on PCT?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

That looks fine. The Shock Therapy while on is a good idea. You may be able to drop the tor to 30mg by wk3, and add either Aromasin or RR at that point, if not from the very start in progressive doses.
 
DR.D said:
That looks fine. The Shock Therapy while on is a good idea. You may be able to drop the tor to 30mg by wk3, and add either Aromasin or RR at that point, if not from the very start in progressive doses.
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DR.D, Thanks for the info.
 
Hey Cobra, your PCT looks like mine that I'll be running


120mg tor for first 2-3 days then 60mg remainder
45mg
30mg
week 4 I'm introducing Nolva for just a few days to get some of the benefits from that serm. Best of both worlds type of deal. Can't hurt.


Using ALRI's RESTORE starting week 1 in progressive Dosages (Inverse to Serm) 1 cap 2 caps 3 caps etc run that till the bottle is gone

good luck. I'm starting my cycle the 25th
 
US-Marine said:
Hey Cobra, your post cycle therapy looks like mine that I'll be running


120mg tor for first 2-3 days then 60mg remainder
45mg
30mg
week 4 I'm introducing Nolva for just a few days to get some of the benefits from that serm. Best of both worlds type of deal. Can't hurt.


Using ALRI's RESTORE starting week 1 in progressive Dosages (Inverse to Serm) 1 cap 2 caps 3 caps etc run that till the bottle is gone

good luck. I'm starting my cycle the 25th
Click to expand...

You decided to use the Restore? Cool. Make sure to keep a log. :)
 
US-Marine said:
Hey Cobra, your post cycle therapy looks like mine that I'll be running


120mg tor for first 2-3 days then 60mg remainder
45mg
30mg
week 4 I'm introducing Nolva for just a few days to get some of the benefits from that serm. Best of both worlds type of deal. Can't hurt.


Using ALRI's RESTORE starting week 1 in progressive Dosages (Inverse to Serm) 1 cap 2 caps 3 caps etc run that till the bottle is gone

good luck. I'm starting my cycle the 25th
Click to expand...


I decided against nolva after reading this on another form.


Superdrol and pheraplex are progestins which means that nolva can cause or make existing gyno worse. Macrophage69alpha (supplement guru): Clomid does not upregulate the PgR (as nolva does). After speaking with Macro, he recommended stacking clomid (SERM) and aromasin (AI) together. The aromasin is not supposed to have a negative impact on blood lipid levels, like other AI's can.


Good luck on your cycle US-Marine.
 
cobra77 said:
I decided against nolva after reading this on another form.


Superdrol and pheraplex are progestins which means that nolva can cause or make existing gyno worse. Macrophage69alpha (supplement guru): Clomid does not upregulate the PgR (as nolva does). After speaking with Macro, he recommended stacking clomid (SERM) and aromasin (AI) together. The aromasin is not supposed to have a negative impact on blood lipid levels, like other AI's can.


Good luck on your cycle US-Marine.
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I'd like to start a small discussion on this, as I have read alot pertaining to this subject. I have used Nolvadex for PCT after pheraplex twice, and had not had any problems. I have heard negative things when using an AI for PCT, such as Letro/Aromasin. The idea behind this is strong AI's will obviously create an imbalance of hormones, and the object of PCT is to create a homeostasis as fast as possible. So wouldn't a SERM that keeps your nipples estro-free but still allows the estrogen to circulate our best bet?


My question is, since Nolvadex binds to the receptors, wouldnt progestin induced gyno not be able to form because the lack of estrogen binding???

I'm still learning, please post.
 
side note, guys if you are running a cycle you have to add

Liv 52 to your supprt stack, real cheap and is wayyyyyyy more effective than milk thistle which is probably garbage anyway

Invalid Link Removed

start checking out around 197... "As an adjuvant with hepatotoxic drugs"

Booyah!
 
US-Marine said:
side note, guys if you are running a cycle you have to add

Liv 52 to your supprt stack, real cheap and is wayyyyyyy more effective than milk thistle which is probably garbage anyway

Invalid Link Removed

start checking out around 197... "As an adjuvant with hepatotoxic drugs"

Booyah!
Click to expand...


Hey man, check out Cycle Support by AnabolicInnovations.com , one of the sponsers. It features ALL the support herbs you need on cycle in one or two easy doses per day. And its a flavored powder so you can mix it in your protein shakes. It makes it alot easier than taking many pills...:)
 
RenegadeRows said:
Hey man, check out Cycle Support by AnabolicInnovations.com , one of the sponsers. It features ALL the support herbs you need on cycle in one or two easy doses per day. And its a flavored powder so you can mix it in your protein shakes. It makes it alot easier than taking many pills...:)
Click to expand...

LOL I already have cycle support! Amazing product

Liv 52 is separate with different herbs for added support.
 
cobra77 said:
... Superdrol and pheraplex are progestins ... Clomid does not upregulate the PgR (as nolva does) ... aromasin is not supposed to have a negative impact on blood lipid levels, like other AI's can.
Click to expand...

I've been saying this for a long time now! superdrol is not a major progestin, but all orals are to an extent by virtue of the 17-aa addition. Nolva is likely the reason for the "delayed gyno" reported by some people in association with SD. Nolva should always be avoided if possible.

RR is another AI that's nice on lipids. In the alpha testing, lipids continued to show a favorable ratio shift (HDL climbs and LDL falls) even though test was rising and estrogen was lowering week after week. SS saw the same phenomenon with his bloodwork.
 
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