Pink magic

[DAdams91982]

Can we please throw out a request for information from the true moral authority? lol

 

[Blergs]

This is the only pink magic im sippin on :

 

[truthornothin]

I agree, but keep in mind it's this "least common denominator" that companies are aggressively trying to target with ludicrous claims and exaggerations. Make no bones about it man, companies aren't using the language they use and the claims they make for pubmed warriors such as yourself or many of the people on this site. The money isn't in chasing someone who is intelligent as you are. You think Biotest writes articles on new products trying to get YOU to try it? They KNOW they won't fool you, you're a smart guy who's been around the game for too long. You're privy to all the tricks and trade. They aren't looking for me and you.

You don't say 15 pounds of lean muscle in a month to convince anyone except for those who will be duped by those claims. I agree with what you are saying to an extent, but at some point certain claims become a borderline scam and ethically we can't just blame it all on stupid consumers every single time....or at least I can't. A balance should be struck between marketing and flat out taking advantage of the uneducated with snake oil.

Unfortunately People WANT to believe in "Magic" Pardon the pun. Its funny when I look at some of the logs and people report gains that my almost 48 year old ass gets when I up my calories a tad and work out a little harder.

Pubmed is your friend for sure as far as being a little more educated, but research can even be misleading, its not always apples to apples and even on Pubmed you have to sift through the chaff. I am not a scientist though science minded and focused. Sometimes(often) I misread the research out of ignorance. But rely on this industry to police itself ....ain't gonna happen IMHO not outside of Prototype and E-Pharm anyway

 

[Force of Green]

Unfortunately People WANT to believe in "Magic" Pardon the pun. Its funny when I look at some of the logs and people report gains that my almost 48 year old ass gets when I up my calories a tad and work out a little harder.

Pubmed is your friend for sure as far as being a little more educated, but research can even be misleading, its not always apples to apples and even on Pubmed you have to sift through the chaff. I am not a scientist though science minded and focused. Sometimes(often) I misread the research out of ignorance. But rely on this industry to police itself ....ain't gonna happen IMHO not outside of Prototype and E-Pharm anyway

When enough people lose faith in the free market to 'police' or regulate itself, government intervention will likely occur. I'd rather rely on the checks and balances outside of federal channels, personally.

 

[CATdiesel76]

This is the only pink magic sitting on my face :

Corrected

 

[Fred Anthony]

LMAO.!!!:cool2: this magic always work..LOL

Corrected

 

[Patrick Arnold]

You had it for three years before I touched it. Maybe you shouldn't of underdosed it..

..

I looked into this. We put 25mg of DMAA per dose in our products. Apparently you put 20 and 30mg of DMAA per dose in your products.

So I dont understand your statement

http://www.dssupplements.com/forum/showthread.php/21901-Lets-take-a-look-at-what-USP-labs-Oxyelite-Pro-REALLY-is


http://mobile.nutraingredients-usa.com/On-your-radar/DMAA/DMAA-not-in-geranium-says-yet-another-study#.UUjIiBykrtR

 

[Beejis60]

This is the only pink magic im sippin on : [IG]htp/ww.thongdancers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/mindy-vega-pink-thong-007.g[MG]

Corrected

shiiiiiiiittttt I'm sure that hoe has varying levels of green mixed in with said pink

 

[Raw Dog]

But who was pesticides

 

[CATdiesel76]

shiiiiiiiittttt I'm sure that hoe has varying levels of green mixed in with said pink

I meant to warn her about that beforehand. Instead I told her they were just heat blisters

 

[punjabimunde]

http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayinhealth/sports-supplement-linked-cardiac-issues-death

What you guys have to say about this?? Latest news

 

[Patrick Arnold]

http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayinhealth/sports-supplement-linked-cardiac-issues-death

What you guys have to say about this?? Latest news

Time to circle the wagons

 

[wallinghsosa]

Funny comments by Gotti who reps for AndroFactory...a company that was built on taking everything Eric did at Primordial.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Funny comments by Gotti who reps for AndroFactory...a company that was built on taking everything Eric did at Primordial.

except the raid

 

[rob112]

But who was pesticides

Saw that too. I don't know what USP's response is, or if they have one.

 

[Force of Green]

http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayinhealth/sports-supplement-linked-cardiac-issues-death

What you guys have to say about this?? Latest news

Good read, but take it for face value. There is a 'link'... There is a link between Kevin Bacon and Charlize Theron and there is a link between stupidity and fatalities caused by J-walking and being struck by a taxi cab. I'm not using sarcasm to insult you, I'm trying to illustrate that fundamentally, one can not attribute this compound as the cause of death. Correlation is not causation. Military training does not guarantee the soldiers adequate water intake and the drill instructor will likely not say, "oh, you're feeling pain in your chest and heart palpitations? Why don't you just sit this one out."

 

[truthornothin]

Good read, but take it for face value. There is a 'link'... There is a link between Kevin Bacon and Charlize Theron and there is a link between stupidity and fatalities caused by J-walking and being struck by a taxi cab. I'm not using sarcasm to insult you, I'm trying to illustrate that fundamentally, one can not attribute this compound as the cause of death. Correlation is not causation. Military training does not guarantee the soldiers adequate water intake and the drill instructor will likely not say, "oh, you're feeling pain in your chest and heart palpitations? Why don't you just sit this one out."

I read the link and even the FDA cautioned that this was anecdotal and there was currently nothing to suggest causation...it quite honestly surprised me that they said that

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I read the link and even the FDA cautioned that this was anecdotal and there was currently nothing to suggest causation...it quite honestly surprised me that they said that

You never know what you are gonna get out of the FDA. Its a large organization and some folks there are reasonable and some folks there are aggressively anti-supplement. I also think that the FDA gets a little annoyed at being bothered all the time to remove supplements from the market by certain groups and people, and they may react to that harrassment in a manner which could be seen as being actually (dare i say it) objective

In the end though they will likely act. On there own timetable of course

 

[Beejis60]

I read the link and even the FDA cautioned that this was anecdotal and there was currently nothing to suggest causation...it quite honestly surprised me that they said that

Agreed.

 

[mr.cooper69]

The 1,3 DMAA is undoubtedly causative and not merely correlated. The caveat is that it is a cause. This looks like a 3-hit case:

1. Predisposition
2. Exercise
3. 1,3 DMAA

An NE reuptake inhibitor should act as a positive inotrope (SV)/chronotrope (HR) and also increase afterload/TPR. This will drive up MAP and create an increased cardiac metabolic demand. Now you pair this with exercise (increased HR, mildly increased SV) and metabolic demand further increases. Now finally pair these two with a predisposition (e.g. poor coronary blood flow -> environmental; left-dominant heart -> genetic) and it is quite possible that metabolic demand exceeded metabolic supply and cardiac arrest ultimately occurred.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

The 1,3 DMAA is undoubtedly causative and not merely correlated. The caveat is that it is a cause. This looks like a 3-hit case:

1. Predisposition
2. Exercise
3. 1,3 DMAA

An NE reuptake inhibitor should act as a positive inotrope (SV)/chronotrope (HR) and also increase afterload/TPR. This will drive up MAP and create an increased cardiac metabolic demand. Now you pair this with exercise (increased HR, mildly increased SV) and metabolic demand further increases. Now finally pair these two with a predisposition (e.g. poor coronary blood flow -> environmental; left-dominant heart -> genetic) and it is quite possible that metabolic demand exceeded metabolic supply and cardiac arrest ultimately occurred.

you forgot to mention the other ingredients in Jack3d

Also, it is never a good idea to start a stim you have never taken before on a day where you are exerting yourself extraordinarily. I suspect the soldier and the marathon runner may have been unfamiliar with the product and unbeknownst to them they were extremely sensitive to it

Stims can be safe if used correctly. If used incorrectly they can be harmful

 

[mr.cooper69]

you forgot to mention the other ingredients in Jack3d

Also, it is never a good idea to start a stim you have never taken before on a day where you are exerting yourself extraordinarily. I suspect the soldier and the marathon runner may have been unfamiliar with the product and unbeknownst to them they were extremely sensitive to it

Stims can be safe if used correctly. If used incorrectly they can be harmful

Yeah the other ingredients also worsen the situation, but I was commenting on how everyone is saying there is a correlation but not a cause. Well, by my measure, 1,3 DMAA is definitely a cause.

Does that mean that using the stim responsibly would be harmful? No, but on the same note, deaths clearly would not have occurred if jack3d wasn't taken, so there is definitely a causative factor.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Yeah the other ingredients also worsen the situation, but I was commenting on how everyone is saying there is a correlation but not a cause. Well, by my measure, 1,3 DMAA is definitely a cause.

Does that mean that using the stim responsibly would be harmful? No, but on the same note, deaths clearly would not have occurred if jack3d wasn't taken, so there is definitely a causative factor.

tylenol is a causative factor in many deaths as well. rarely is it the sole cause (unless one intentionally overdoses)

 

[punjabimunde]

Why did Theraflu and Bronkaid got banned??

 

[mr.cooper69]

tylenol is a causative factor in many deaths as well. rarely is it the sole cause (unless one intentionally overdoses)

Exactly

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Why did Theraflu and Bronkaid got banned??

Banned? I think these were just pulled off the shelves voluntarily. no?

 

[AE14]

Why did Theraflu and Bronkaid got banned??

Bronkaid was a recall from what I was told at CVS

 

[punjabimunde]

Yea that's what I meant but what made them recall these products...even NyQuil pills

 

[Force of Green]

The 1,3 DMAA is undoubtedly causative and not merely correlated. The caveat is that it is a cause. This looks like a 3-hit case:

1. Predisposition
2. Exercise
3. 1,3 DMAA

An NE reuptake inhibitor should act as a positive inotrope (SV)/chronotrope (HR) and also increase afterload/TPR. This will drive up MAP and create an increased cardiac metabolic demand. Now you pair this with exercise (increased HR, mildly increased SV) and metabolic demand further increases. Now finally pair these two with a predisposition (e.g. poor coronary blood flow -> environmental; left-dominant heart -> genetic) and it is quite possible that metabolic demand exceeded metabolic supply and cardiac arrest ultimately occurred.

Mr. Cooper, undoubtably you are one of the smartest men I've interacted with on the boards. You also have a way with words moreso than most politicians (a good trait), but past the nicely framed and worded post, is a meaningless point. Anything that constricts blood vessels (albeit caffeine) could do something to someone with a cardiac predisposition after intense exercise sessions. All else aside, Jack3d had a matrix of stimulants, not just 1,3DMAA.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Mr. Cooper, undoubtably you are one of the smartest men I've interacted with on the boards. You also have a way with words moreso than most politicians (a good trait), but past the nicely framed and worded post, is a meaningless point. Anything that constricts blood vessels (albeit caffeine) could do something to someone with a cardiac predisposition after intense exercise sessions. All else aside, Jack3d had a matrix of stimulants, not just 1,3DMAA.

I appreciate the kind words man. Let me clarify something so you can see it from my point of view:

-Jack3d has 2 stims: caffeine and 1,3D
-Schizandra actually reduces afterload (human study) and thus TPR/CO
-Arginine will have no effect on BP or a slight reduction (less afterload)
-Creatine and BA won't really affect cardiovascular parameters

Taking those into account, you're looking at caffeine and 1,3D (plus 2 ingredients that may have the opposite effect). Caffeine is synergistic with the NE reuptake properties of 1,3DMAA; so is exercise, which increases NE release into the synaptic cleft (or adrenal medulla).

So a vasoconstricutor would not have the same effect as 1,3 DMAA per se. DMAA hits more than just TPR; it hits cardiac output too, and it does so in a manner that becomes more pronounced with caffeine and/or exercise. Inhibitors of eNOS or other vasoconstrictors would not have this effect

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Mr. Cooper, undoubtably you are one of the smartest men I've interacted with on the boards. You also have a way with words moreso than most politicians (a good trait), but past the nicely framed and worded post, is a meaningless point. Anything that constricts blood vessels (albeit caffeine) could do something to someone with a cardiac predisposition after intense exercise sessions. All else aside, Jack3d had a matrix of stimulants, not just 1,3DMAA.

Mr. Coopers area of expertise is a valuable complement to my area of expertise and that of the other smart folks on this board

 

[testosteronet]

I appreciate both of you taking the time to be on these forums. Thanks.

 

[NADDANME]

What I don't get is why they say 80 reported cases like that a large number when aspartame and MSG have 200 times more and are often not even know ingredients with little to no warning labels. It's all money and politics.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

What I don't get is why they say 80 reported cases like that a large number when aspartame and MSG have 200 times more and are often not even know ingredients with little to no warning labels. It's all money and politics.

Most adverse event reports are ridiculous anyway but you have to report them the the FDA regardless.

 

[pump3d]

Mr. Cooper, undoubtably you are one of the smartest men I've interacted with on the boards. You also have a way with words moreso than most politicians (a good trait), but past the nicely framed and worded post, is a meaningless point. Anything that constricts blood vessels (albeit caffeine) could do something to someone with a cardiac predisposition after intense exercise sessions. All else aside, Jack3d had a matrix of stimulants, not just 1,3DMAA.

I think that was the point, that it was only part of the equation. Most people that use it are not dropping like flies, so it isn't the only factor.

 

[Beejis60]

Why did Theraflu and Bronkaid got banned??

It's not banned. Know your facts before spreading gossip.

 

[punjabimunde]

It's not banned. Know your facts before spreading gossip.

Read the next posts and get ur fact straight before you start typing

 

[Beejis60]

Read the next posts and get ur fact straight before you start typing

I know the facts long before anyone ever posted.

 

[AdelV]

PA brought/popularized:

1,3D
DAA
COP
Ursolic Acid

USPLabs brought/popularized:

Cissus
Berberine
Mucuna/L-dopa
Rauwolscine

Kudos to both

I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?

 

[Geoforce]

I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?

He did.

 

[JudoJosh]

He did.

I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?

Circa 2004

 

[mr.cooper69]

I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?

Indeed he did, but USPlabs popularized it

 

[JudoJosh]

The original heat stack was under Avant Labs not RPN was it not? I thought Par Deus was the one who first introduced alpha-y

where is Rodja

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S™II using Tapatalk 2

 

[Captn_the]

I thought Matt/RPN brought rauwolscine to the market?

Rauwolscine = yohimbe ... That's how it sneaked past Aussie customs for a good couple of years

 

[AdelV]

Rauwolscine = yohimbe ... That's how it sneaked past Aussie customs for a good couple of years

Honestly, the should of fined Usplabs & the distributor. They should of cleared that, tho Im sure they lost tonz of stock.

 

[Geoforce]

The original heat stack was under Avant Labs not RPN was it not? I thought Par Deus was the one who first introduced alpha-y

where is Rodja

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S™II using Tapatalk 2

Matt and Caleb have had a working relationship for a long time. It's why Napalm is in Eviscerate.

 

[Rodja]

The original heat stack was under Avant Labs not RPN was it not? I thought Par Deus was the one who first introduced alpha-y

where is @Rodja

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S™II using Tapatalk 2

Matt used to work for Avant.

 

[Iain1668]

Honestly, the should of fined Usplabs & the distributor. They should of cleared that, tho Im sure they lost tonz of stock.

2 year TGA investigation
Minimum $10m fine

More fines due soon... I'm sure you're already aware.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Rauwolscine = yohimbe ... That's how it sneaked past Aussie customs for a good couple of years

no its alpha yohimbine and it was quite popular before USP labs ever touched it.

 

[Force of Green]

I appreciate the kind words man. Let me clarify something so you can see it from my point of view:

-Jack3d has 2 stims: caffeine and 1,3D
-Schizandra actually reduces afterload (human study) and thus TPR/CO
-Arginine will have no effect on BP or a slight reduction (less afterload)
-Creatine and BA won't really affect cardiovascular parameters

Taking those into account, you're looking at caffeine and 1,3D (plus 2 ingredients that may have the opposite effect). Caffeine is synergistic with the NE reuptake properties of 1,3DMAA; so is exercise, which increases NE release into the synaptic cleft (or adrenal medulla).

So a vasoconstricutor would not have the same effect as 1,3 DMAA per se. DMAA hits more than just TPR; it hits cardiac output too, and it does so in a manner that becomes more pronounced with caffeine and/or exercise. Inhibitors of eNOS or other vasoconstrictors would not have this effect

I see. Thanks, Coop.