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Patrick Arnold and Epistane

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Jayhawkk said:
only if you redirect the hostility by posting something of interest in the political forum :)
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I have no more political interests. I have a friend who wants me to massage his pig's ass in an attempt to develop kobe pork. I have another friend whose chicken, no kidding, is in jail, put there be 'afore mentioned kobe pork friend. I have given up politics in the face of such absurdities. I come here for pleasantness and stability, and I am denied. And I'm curious as to what exactly is in epistane. It's very rare anyone actually tests these new designers and posts results. This should be interesting.

:afro:
 
1fast....just curious as to a time frame you might have you testing done...

I appreciate it...and I know a lot of the other guys around here appreciate it as well...
 
1Fast400 said:
I'm simply stating that whatever was in that bottle that was tested, was not what was on the side of the label.
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This is what I love, after all the bull**** & anger calms down you get something straightforward and worthy of a post.

So I can go with that, that there maybe something "not quite right" and am interested like others in what that is.

See for me I see results, people getting results from both Havoc & Epi, what it comes down to me is "does it do what it claims?" and " wow Epi is $39.99, $10 or $20 dollars cheaper than Havoc"

<3 to you all, I hope that after all of this we can all calm down and go along to get along together. After all, if you're not here for love...GTFO :)

>>>waits patiently<<<

B=====>:hammer:
 
1Fast400 said:
Dr D's "standard" is nothing more than a batch of material he got 18-24 months ago. He's using that as his standard.
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If he is using this sample as the "standard", I assume it is part of the same batch that he personally told me that he tested that long ago himself.

Another thing, all of the logs and reviews I have read of Epistane completely mirror all of the effects of the sample that Dr.D himself mailed to me, how'd you put it... 18-24 months ago, which I cycled and ran more than a few bloodtests on while noting personal experience. So there we have chemical analasys and alpha testing complete with bloodwork, well over a year ago. This was made happen by...Dr.D:box: Hell, we even referred to it as "Epi" 18 months ago. I'm not sure if everybody knows this info, so I'm just trying to make it clear:aargh: . <-I'm sure you'll rebut this with a whole sh!tload of behind the scenes business drama, but that does not change any of the facts I present.

That's what he does, he tests sh!t, he's a f'ing chemist, when he's not answering hundreds of PMs and replying to countless threads giving out some of the most sound advice on the net, FOR FREE. So if you have no interest in all of this, why do you single out one of the most respected poster on all the boards? I talk to Dr.D frequently, and he is an awesome guy, someone I'm grateful and proud to call a friend. It doesn't really make sense to me...:fool2: Another question I have, and I'm not gonna beat around the bush anymore like here...
supersoldier said:
Shady scheming plan backfiring... :numbered:

I've never had any drama with any people on this board. Mostly because I just keep my mouth shut. Even before Dr.D posted the details of the conspiracy theory, I PM'd him and said "You notice every time there's some petty thread about Epi and Havoc that always a certain somebody is right there to chime in. Well, this thread is a big ordeal, but who haven't we heard from yet?"
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Why haven't we heard from dsade in this thread? You don't have to answer that one Mike, that's just something for the public board to think about. If you want I can post links to a few threads where he gets involved with discussion between Epi and Havoc. Why not this one?:think:


1Fast400 said:
Havoc is dead nuts on. It is exactly what it is supposed to be.
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Also, WTF is this?^^^ Dead nuts on to what, probably the "standard" sample/batch that Dr.D possesses and tested right?:rolleyes:

If I'm stupid then please show me the light, break out the crayons and construction paper for me Oh Enlightened One.:box:
 
1Fast400 said:
He says he has a standard so he must? I'd rather trust a REAL doctor, not someone that plays one on the internet. There is a lot of conflicting reports out there. This should be the easiest way to solve it.

Dr D's "standard" is nothing more than a batch of material he got 18-24 months ago. He's using that as his standard.
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Ask your buddy PA. I sent him a copy of my results with the standard chrom too that was validated by an independent lab over a year ago now! He's welcome to post those too when he posts his up, if he ever gets around to it that is. He seems to have lost them or something. lol

Of course, without a standard, his stunt will become obvious. What's in this for you anyway MM?
 
Hey 1fast, I think you should stick to the mindmuscle forum as people here just seem to attack you. The discussion there are also discussions.
 
1Fast400 said:
I have no reason to check the other. From the testing I saw, it was dead nuts on. Epistane was the one in question. I hate Dsade more than any poster on the internet probably. I have no desire to see him flourish. That is a personal issue between him and I. I just see Dr. D going around making wild claims, such that he has tested this material when he hasn't and it annoys me. Dr D got caught a couple of years ago in the same situation. His material was found to be bunk and it cost a compay quite a bit of money. All because they trusted him. He's doing the same thing here.

Like I said, I benefit in no way shape or form no matter what happens. I just think this guy is a fraud. It is my personal opinion and I'm very likely to be proved wrong with the testing. If I am, I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

All I know is that Dr D could have EASILY ended all of this negative pub if he would just post the test that he claims to have.
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So are you talking about the time PA tested Rebound? If so, that was different. We had no QC protocol in place, but that wasn't my fault. I can't test samples I don't have moron, and like you even know what happened anyway! What's so interesting is how PA started selling ATD the very next month, after he trashed DS sales.

Anyway, it's the same thing going on here. PA wouldn't care if he didn't have something to gain from this stunt, just like you! I didn't have to say why he wanted his money back, but I did because I did test this batch and knew for a fact it was clean. If it comes down to it, you can't win because you rolled the dice and guessed wrong this time, I test everything now! This battle was over before it even started. Oh, and like I said, PA was already sent a copy of my results so if you wanna see them, ask him for his copy. They are the same ones sitting in front of me now dated 'Sat Jan 27 15:22:51:23 2007'.

And I want to say great job on selling BN! Man, I don't know who's running it now, but since your douche ass left, I have gotten much better service. They haven't screwed up one order, it's amazing what a change in management can do!

And what does "dead nuts on" mean? It means you just got caught in your own lie because you already stated there was no standard at your disposal for reference, so dead nut on what?

You're a sell out. I hate people like you that sell the truth for money, and step on the innocent little ones to do it. I hope all these people come against you and this backfires hard! They will remember the role you played when it brings down the industry alright.
 
With that being said theres not much left to say besides " Remember remember the 5th of november when gun powder and treason were wrought, i can think of no reason for the gun powder treason to ever be forgot." Nice post DR.D.
 
The thing that sucks the most is if a few things were different I think some of these people in opposite corners would be pretty good friends.
 
1Fast400 said:
Considering I'm doing this on my own and will spend between 500-1000 bucks just for my own ****s and giggles, you guys can test the other products. I'm just doing this to satisfy my own curiosity. You guys are the ones that benefit from it. For people getting something for "free", there sure is a lot of *****ing. Then again, that is how this industry is and always will be.
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No, you're a business man. If you spend a cent, you have plans to get a return for it, or else it's a bad investment! You have something at stake in those results being "bad". Your curiosity doesn't gain you a dime and you are not doing this for us, or you would have posted your 'results' after IBE gave you their 100% unconditional consent to do so freely. If something is wrong with the results and you don't post it, you're just plain irresponsible and can't say you care about any of us.
 
supersoldier said:
Why haven't we heard from dsade in this thread? You don't have to answer that one Mike, that's just something for the public board to think about. If you want I can post links to a few threads where he gets involved with discussion between Epi and Havoc. Why not this one?:think:
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First of all, SS...dsade has been extremely busy with the Arnold and Natural Foods Expo. Dsade has several businesses to run. You will notice dsade has not been around much in the past 2 weeks at all.

Secondly, SS...dsade and the representatives of IBE have a gentlemen's agreement in place (which apparently keeps getting encroached upon, but that is handled privately between dsade and other parties) to leave each other to run their product as they see fit. The involvement of third parties has nothing to do with me, it is not at my request, nor is there any grand conspiracy in place.

Those that know me will vouch for my character. For those that I used to work with, the issues are personal and nobody's business but ours...but there is no way in hell I would work with certain persons or personages forthherewith etc. etc. etc.....while the parties of the second part have problems with the parties of the third part, parties of the first part want nothing to do with it. So...in other words, I stay out of these threads because they have nothing to DO with me or RPN.

Now you get nothing....good day, sir.

*parts of the style of this rant may or may be entirely or partially based on a certain work of fiction involving a chocolate factory and some strange chaps.
 
Outside Backer said:
man every board has some epistane drama on it.

damn 1fast i didnt knowu hated dsade that much didn tu guys work together?
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Yeah, if I hated him so much, I'd go to every board pimping his product too and starting trouble with IBE, one of his competitors, that makes perfect sense!

Can't you people see it?
 
friction515 said:
... Also what qualifications do you have for interpreting this data. Is there an NMR and how many different carbons are there in this result. What are the integrals on the H's? What does all that tell you about the structure of the chemical. ...
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That's why I haven't posted anything also. Not only because the burden of truth rests on the damn accuser, but because guys wouldn't know what they were looking at anyway! I'd give them a crash course in chromo if needed though.
 
I've never taken Epistane, Havoc, or any other *designer* product. But, I know one thing for sure... this thread kicks ass!

:bruce2:
 
DR.D said:
Yeah, if I hated him so much, I'd go to every board pimping his product too and starting trouble with IBE, one of his competitors, that makes perfect sense!

Can't you people see it?
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Ok...back the F*** up now.I have had it with you good Christians giving your PROMISE, only to break it with the next word out of your mouth.

I have STAYED OUT OF THIS, AS WE ALL AGREED...remember that promise you made, you hypocrite?

I have done nothing but run my company honestly. I have not attacked you, since the little details of the initial product launch were made and we straightened this out. So why is it that every couple of weeks ONE of you starts talking crap about me YET AGAIN? Do you have no honor in your word?? Are you that bat**** insane paranoid that you simply cannot stop yourself from spewing complete crap out of your mouth?

You and I have spoken like ADULTS through PMs. I will say this ONE more time...do you think you can keep your word this time D? I HAVE LEFT IBE TO RUN THEIR COMPANY AS THEY SEE FIT. I HAVE KEPT TO MY OWN BUSINESS, RESPECTING THIS BOARD AND BOBO'S WISHES THAT IT NOT BE DISCUSSED.

Why can't you do the same?
 
I borrowed my roomate's first year philosophy textbook for this one. I kept trying to come up with the name but it's been a few years since I've done it.

Five Fallacies of Relevance

Fallacies in this group involve premises that are not relevant to the conclusion they are meant to support.

1. Appeal to Ignorance (Ad Ignorantiam)

The appeal to ignorance consists in arguing that because a claim has not been demonstrated to be false, the claim is true. This case of legislative thinking has all the apearance of being reasonable, but it is fallacious. For example:

Of course I believe in ESP. No one has ever demonstrated that it doesn't exist.

(OR: Since Dr. D has not posted test results, Epistane does not contain what he claims it does)

WTF does the Dr. have to prove to you people?

By the way, this is in no way directed to 1fast400, the only one who is actually going to try and support his allegations against IBE.
 
If I might share an observation: Both Dsade and Dr.D have made enemies in this cannibalistic industry. It very well may be that other parties are pitting you against each other for their own purposes. I can think of a couple names off of the top of my head.

Both IBE and RPN have rolled out a product which by ALL ACCOUNTS is a monster hit. Instead of letting yourselves be provoked, you might hang back and rest soundly on the voluminous positive user feedback.
 
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to yeahright again.
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Iconsider both Dsade and Dr.D a friend and would respectfully request you all talk with each other and please direct ya'lls issue with the respinsible party(s) and not each other or your companies.
 
It seems really fishy to say the least that Mike and Pat would just start ripping Dr.D and IBE for no reason. Surely this whole fiasco is not for the good of the consumer.

These two guys come out of the woodworks to proclaim to the masses that EPI is bunk and Dr.D is a fraud, and that Havoc is "dead nuts on".

Logically, WTF is their motive???
 
yeahright said:
If I might share an observation: Both Dsade and Dr.D have made enemies in this cannibalistic industry. It very well may be that other parties are pitting you against each other for their own purposes. I can think of a couple names off of the top of my head.

Both IBE and RPN have rolled out a product which by ALL ACCOUNTS is a monster hit. Instead of letting yourselves be provoked, you might hang back and rest soundly on the voluminous positive user feedback.
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to yeahright again.

MOD EDIT: That avatar rules.
 
Sorry I wasn't around. Went to a charlotte bobcats game and just got home.

It's pretty simple. Havoc and Epistane were both tested using the same method. The products came back with different results. Havoc came back with information showing it to be the product claimed on the side of the bottle. The Epistane ingredient, came back different. Eventhough it was subjected the exact same testing havoc was. When I was told about this at the arnold, I didn't even know what these products were. Go and look at my posting history, it has been awhile since I've posted, even on bb.com

The other day I was checking the board and I saw an epistane thread. I decided to jump in and offer my .02. It was only then I got involved in this cluster fvck. As I began to read the utter bull**** being said by Dr D/P/Q whatever his name is, I couldn't help but laugh. Being abusing the boards for their own gain, hell I invented that practice I think. When I went through the first thread, this is what I gathered. Epistane was called into question, Dr D claimed to have results showing other wise, but Dr D never posted them. That is VERY odd behaviour. These boards have powerful effect on sales. I can assure you a company wants to nip any negative issues as soon as possible. Hence why I found their actions so odd.

As I got involved, I have drawn my own personal conclusion that Dr D is nothing more than a showman. I don't believe he has tested this product. If so where are the results? It would have ended all this a long time ago. He knows PA can't posts his results. He keeps asking me to post them as if they are mine. He makes the stupidest arguments I've ever heard. At that point, I just got tired of it. I wanted an answer to it myself. I called up a good lab that I know and spoke to them about it. Within 2 hours a bottle was on order and enroute. So now, it's a waiting game. Rather than listen to everyone else and all this BS, I'll just solve it for myself. Which brings me to this:

No, you're a business man. If you spend a cent, you have plans to get a return for it, or else it's a bad investment! You have something at stake in those results being "bad". Your curiosity doesn't gain you a dime and you are not doing this for us, or you would have posted your 'results' after IBE gave you their 100% unconditional consent to do so freely. If something is wrong with the results and you don't post it, you're just plain irresponsible and can't say you care about any of us.
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This is about the dumbest statement I've read. I'll break it down for you on an elementary level. I sold my company for a lot of money. I'm a business man, I started my business's with no money. Now that I have money, I have other business's that I run (4 currently) that do very well. Hence, me spending 500-1000 bucks on some testing, isn't a big deal. One day I will enter back into this industry. When my non-compete is up 5 years from now. I have worked VERY hard for my reputation of being a legit business person. I've always tried to do right by the customer. MANY of the things I started and was the first to do, are now staples at many online sites. I pride myself on that. I hate to see customers knowingly fvcked over by someone. That is what I see in you. If I'm proven wrong with this test, I'll gladly apologize. However, if it comes back wrong, I can't WAIT to see what you'll do then. I'm sure you'll attempt to dance your way out of it. There is no worries, I will post the results, no matter what they say. I just hope you are ready for it. For someone that doesn't work for IBE, by your own claim, you sure have put them in a VERY weird position.
 
rockhard_4eva said:
Because what happens in wonderland (ie. this forum) is not real life. It just doesnt work like that.
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Ummmmmmm, yes it does. Whatever claims IBE might have (product disparagement, tortious interference with business relations, etc.) are waived when a person is granted permission to disclose whatever information they have. I'm sure a notarized waiver form could be faxed to PA's lawyer if need be.

Moreover, if IBE did choose to pursue a claim after such a disclosure, PA would not only have a pretty good defense but would also have the groundwork for a counterclaim for his costs associated with the litigation.

Outside of wonderland some of us play litigation for a living.

PA hasn't even made a claim. He's hinted that he found something wrong with the product. He (apparently) then shared this offline with others who have carried forth the aroma of scandal without even a single concrete claim of wrongdoing. When the target of this smear grants permission for PA to publicly disclose whatever it is he thinks he found, PA goes silent and surrogates start claiming that PA can't disclose the information because he might get sued.

I do this for a living and I call bull****.

If PA found something wrong (adulterant, underdosing, different ingredients from those stated on the lable - er um, a problem he should be familiar with), then he should disclose it as IBE has asked him too. If he's not willing to do so, then he should STFU and stop using surrogates to spread rumors for him.
 
dsade said:
Ok...back the F*** up now.I have had it with you good Christians giving your PROMISE, only to break it with the next word out of your mouth. ...
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Excuse you? Why don't you keep my name out of your mouth from here on and don't quote my posts again. We had no agreement but I was at least courteous enough to avoid this with you until now, even though you know you're behind all this and so do I and most everyone else at this point. This is your one and only free shot so address me directly again and get want you get, that's my 'promise'. Also, my religious beliefs are not the topic, so don't take that angle or try to discredit me or obscure the facts. Stick to the issue or just stop crying.
 
yeahright said:
Ummmmmmm, yes it does. Whatever claims IBE might have (product disparagement, tortious interference with business relations, etc.) are waived when a person is granted permission to disclose whatever information they have. I'm sure a notarized waiver form could be faxed to PA's lawyer if need be.

Moreover, if IBE did choose to pursue a claim after such a disclosure, PA would not only have a pretty good defense but would also have the groundwork for a counterclaim for his costs associated with the litigation.

Outside of wonderland some of us play litigation for a living.

PA hasn't even made a claim. He's hinted that he found something wrong with the product. He (apparently) then shared this offline with others who have carried forth the aroma of scandal without even a single concrete claim of wrongdoing. When the target of this smear grants permission for PA to publicly disclose whatever it is he thinks he found, PA goes silent and surrogates start claiming that PA can't disclose the information because he might get sued.

I do this for a living and I call bull****.

If PA found something wrong (adulterant, underdosing, different ingredients from those stated on the lable - er um, a problem he should be familiar with), then he should disclose it as IBE has asked him too. If he's not willing to do so, then he should STFU and stop using surrogates to spread rumors for him.
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Amen! That says it all right there. :goodpost:
 
DR.D said:
Excuse you? Why don't you keep my name out of your mouth from here on and don't quote my posts again. We had no agreement but I was at least courteous enough to avoid this with you until now, even though you know you're behind all this and so do I and most everyone else at this point. This is your one and only free shot so address me directly again and get want you get, that's my 'promise'. Also, my religious beliefs are not the topic, so don't take that angle or try to discredit me or obscure the facts. Stick to the issue or just stop crying.
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You know what you libelous douchebag, I have put my goddamn heart and mind into this board, and a hell of a lot of effort. I have done NOTHING underhanded having to with anything. What you and the rest of your crew have done publicly is YOUR business. I have stayed out of it LIKE WE GODDAMN AGREED. So take your unfounded accusations and stick them up your hypocritical ass.

Facts? What facts are you talking about, since you toss the word out as if it means something to you. Since you are quick to toss accusations around (which YOU are instigating) why don't YOU share some facts and not paranoid delusions? We discussed this LIKE ADULTS through PMs several weeks ago. At the time you had leveled unfounded accusations, and angry words were hurled on both parts. We talked things over and came to an understanding.

For my final word, I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT OTHER ADULTS DO WITH THEIR INFORMATION NOR DO I CONTROL THEIR MOTIVES. RPN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MIKE, PA, OR BK.

So would you like to show me these facts you are talking about, rather than slandering my name?
 
Jayhawkk said:
My goodness. :(
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Don't look at me, I have stayed out of this until people start libeling me and accusing me of things I have not done. I have been nothing BUT professionally respectful towards IBE and the boards wishes until my reputation is attacked by nothing but paranoid rumors.

Golden rule my ass.
 
I do this for a living and I call bull****.
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Then you must not be very successful. Chain of custody is a huge issue, legally, with pa's testing. I've eliminated that problem with my testing. So you'll get your results, you just have to wait about 10 days.

If you go to bb.com you'll see that IBE is taking a TOTALLY different stance now than they were 48 hours ago. That is why PA shouldn't release his results. IBE is finally realizing this might blow up in their face. It might not, but the possibility is there. Some of the retarded ass things they are saying on bb.com is truly amazing.

PA probably COULD post the results, but he COULD be sued for sure. Why does PA want to spend 10-15g's to post the results, when I'm doing it for free?
 
Ugh, you are obviously to lazy to read the thread. I'm paying to have the testing done. I could be satan himself (some have called me this) and it wouldn't effect the results in anyway. The bottle was ordered by the lab from a website, it will be sent straight to the lab and be tested. I will never touch it or see it. I will simply cut them a check when they are done.

Next time, read the thread before posting an ignorant and already answered question.
 
Maybe comments that do not directly address Epistane or Havoc should go to the proper thread:

Invalid Link Removed

:duel:
 
1Fast400 said:
Ugh, you are obviously to lazy to read the thread. I'm paying to have the testing done. I could be satan himself (some have called me this) and it wouldn't effect the results in anyway. The bottle was ordered by the lab from a website, it will be sent straight to the lab and be tested. I will never touch it or see it. I will simply cut them a check when they are done.

Next time, read the thread before posting an ignorant and already answered question.
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you must be too lazy to read yourself as i have posts in this thread WAY before you do......

How can you be trusted and WHY should i trut you to put up results? HOW do we know that the lab you are using is legit? How do we know that the test they produce is legit? How do we know that anything you post about the products is legit?

So therefore, i ask again, HOW can YOU be anymore trustworthy than PA? Truthfully, i don't even recall seeing your name on this board before this thread.....(obviously, you have a high post count but that doesn't lay claim to your intelligence or trustworthiness either). At the end of the day you are a businessman that makes money off this industry and i think that you will make money somehow by showing these "results"! not sure how, but why else get involved?

Why am i involved? Because i am a consumer and i have used the product (mind you i have yet to say which one) and I have had great results!

So ignorance? yes it is ignorance for me to TRUST you and the "supposed" results that you are gonna post. and we should all just hold our D!cks until YOU get these results? because they are gonna be life changing? they are gonna put this debate to an end? I doubt it, AND i doubt that anything you put up would necessarily be LEGIT anyway!

Why don't we just let people buy the product they want to buy and BOTH companies can go about their business?
 
How can you be trusted and WHY should i trut you to put up results? HOW do we know that the label you are using is legit? How do we know that the test they produce is legit? How do we know that anything you post about the products is legit?
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Oh my god. I will try, for the last time to explain this to you. Everyone else seems to grasp this concept, but you. There are certain rules you follow when testing products. When a result is to be posted a lab follows a VERY specific set of rules. They will have all the recipets showing where they ordered the product from a website. Showing tracking to their place. The lab doing this work is a HUGE lab, with accredidations out its ass. They are very well respected in the pharma world, much less the supplement industry. They will send me a PDF file with the results in about 10-12 days. I will take said PDF file and post it on bb.com. Once again, the testing has nothing to do with me, other than the fact I'm paying for it.

So therefore, i ask again, HOW can YOU be anymore trustworthy than PA? Truthfully, i don't even recall seeing your name on this board before this thread.....(obviously, you have a high post count but that doesn't lay claim to your intelligence or trustworthiness either). At the end of the day you are a businessman that makes money off this industry and i think that you will make money somehow by showing these "results"! not sure how, but why else get involved?
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I'm retired from this industry. I sold last year. I'm only doing this to end the speculation as to what is and isn't going on. How am I going to make money from showing these results when I have a non compete that goes into 2011? Please explain. Do a search under my name on every major bb'ing board there is. I've made thousands of posts over the years. I can assure you I've been at this longer than you think. Years ago I was the first person to even DO testing on products. I spent 60 grand in lawyers from all the lawsuits.

Why am i involved? Because i am a consumer and i have used the product (mind you i have yet to say which one) and I have had great results!
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Once again, I'm not saying the product doesn't work. I'm saying that from what i've seen, what is on the label isn't in the bottle.

So ignorance? yes it is ignorance for me to TRUST you and the "supposed" results that you are gonna post. and we should all just hold our D!cks until YOU get these results? because they are gonna be life changing? they are gonna put this debate to an end? I doubt it, AND i doubt that anything you put up would necessarily be LEGIT anyway!
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I will wait for your explanation for how I'm going to taint the results of something that I have no hand in? Please explain it to me oh wise one.

Why don't we just let people buy the product they want to buy and BOTH companies can go about their business?
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I didn't realize I had the power to prevent that from happening
 
1fast400 said:
I will wait for your explanation for how I'm going to taint the results of something that I have no hand in? Please explain it to me oh wise one.
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I never said you were going to personally taint the results, I just wanted to make sure that some run of the mill lab wasn't going to test the product and display results that aren't legit....

So why not post what lab is doing the test?

I am being skeptical as you just out of the kindness of your heart decided to lay up $1000 to get these results.

I just don't believe that. "AINT NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH"
 
That is because you know nothing about me. I spent A LOT of money testing products over the years. Why? Because I was a consumer years back. I wouldn't want to know that what was on the bottle is in the bottle. I don't think that is to much to ask. I believe in karma, big time. I feel that is why I was fortunate enough to sell my companies last year 1fast400.com and *************.com. There is a SERIOUS qc problem in our industry and I think people need to know about it. If there guys were making taurine caps, that's a different things. There are 1000's of supplier of taurine and it's easy to manufacture. That isn't the case when a vida book steroid. I can't STAND for someone to talk about how much research and how novel all this **** is. Do you guys realize you can open up a vida book, to which I have an original copy around here somewhere and pull these things out for days? That is what their "research" is, looking at a book that has been used by 100's in this industry to release steroid type products.

I don't want to post the name of the lab till the results are done. I didn't want to take the chance that someone would try to tamper, bother, annoy them. It could easily happen. The name of the lab will be disclosed when I post the results, no worries.
 
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