Patrick Arnold and Epistane

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Interesting thread. POV is that yes we can all be @$$holes, there are times for that but generally for the most part 2/3's you need to state your topic / pov straightforwardly without much emotion etc. If you find yourself getting wrapped up and find yourself stomping up and down saying stuff like "wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" then maybe it's time to stop hitting the "submit" or "reply" button hmmmmm?

Either way I hope mr.PA can learn to communicate effectively and perhaps make some friends of his enemies and people that generally think he's a self centered obnoxious pr!ck.
 
D...I agree, IBE is a great company for the reasons you stated above and the innovative approach you guys bring to the table.

I don't think anyone was really bashing IBE, it may seem as though, but I was hoping it might start up a bit of a debate...guess that didnt work...

Plus it would help me figure out whether I wanted to use Havoc or Epi later on in the year...

But other than that, I think the thread was moving into the fact that members would like another "steroid guru" such as yourself on the board. More knowledge and different prosepectives can be a good thing...

Anyways...You, DR. D and IBE are great in my book...alright, I'm going to go clean the brown off my nose...
 
Personally,.. I'd rather go over to BB.com for such insite and entertainment on some things.
I do respect PA's knowlage in his area, but some of the things that will come along with it I wouldn't want here.

.... but of course, there ARE some differences between members here, and members over their (and other places), and perhaps having him around,.. Ah,.. it's all irrelivant unless he decides to show up.
 
DR.D said:
I tell you what fellas, you don't see IBE bashing and lying about other companies just to get ahead
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bashing, yes. lying, no.

so PA never posted any test results, and refuses to post any? but he says he'll be using Havoc instead? i just dont know what to make of it all, and i was considering finishing up a cycle with it...
 
same_old said:
bashing, yes. lying, no.

so PA never posted any test results, and refuses to post any? but he says he'll be using Havoc instead? i just dont know what to make of it all, and i was considering finishing up a cycle with it...
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He is not posting results because there is nothing to post that will justify all the drama he has sparked over this. Dr. D said he tests every batch and Dr. D has proven himself on this board over the years to be an honest guy so I don't see why anyone should have reason to doubt him.
 
natiels said:
He is not posting results because there is nothing to post that will justify all the drama he has sparked over this. Dr. D said he tests every batch and Dr. D has proven himself on this board over the years to be an honest guy so I don't see why anyone should have reason to doubt him.
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Ummm,... I normally don't trust people that walk around with a huge-ass sword (hammers, chucks n' axe's Im fine with)
But the Doc's good people.
 
I used to be a supplement whore..........

I am now a Dr. D. Junkie!

All hail Dr. D - A good guy that can be trusted through the ages!
 
Yes DR D is a fine man indeed.I do know him personaly NOT just from the internet.I have more respect for him as a man than I can properly express.Hes much more than the Internet persona he portrays.Hes a man Id trust with my life!

Back on this topic: no matter whats stated angry,jealous and/or fearful people will try to discredit others.Thats just life.And no matter whats said true or false people will believe what they want.I have no beef with anyone as its not in my nature anymore. I respect many for their mind but more respect is given for character.

I have MUCH respect for the IBE staff!! Theyve never done me wrong and I felt this way long before this rep position.

I hope we can learn from these kind of matters and act accordingly but Im affraid thats a pipe dream.
 
i would assume that you are a rep BECAUSE you believe in the company, mmowry! I know it is that way with me and AX! I believe in the company/products/leadership/other reps therefore i got onboard and stay on board!

you are just as an upstanding guy as any, mmowry! I would condsider your recommendations very highly! :thumbsup:
 
Thanks Mace and the feeling is mutual!!! Man now I need a hug. LOL
 
I'd actually prefer to educate myself over listening to anyone who was going to speak down to me as if i'm an idiot. PA has never done anything personal to me and I do believe he is a very intelligent person in his chosen profession. I just believe treating people in a belittling manner isn't called for. If dealing with people is such a bother then why not just stop and continue with the work part of the job. Hell, he's admitted to having a PR type of partner.

Either way, I really have no interest in the matter. I just needed to add to my post count :P
 
IF you worry about that, do this. Its good fun.



 
DR.D said:
No, that's not what happened. What he did was ask for a refund because he claimed he had taken it for days and it didn't do anything for him. What I knew is that he had already emailed IBE the day before with a claim of bad test results and received the refund he asked for no questions asked. Of course, I publicly told everybody the real reason he "claimed" to want a refund because I knew I could back up my results and he couldn't back up his. I didn't have to say anything about why he wanted a refund, but I knew he was lying and tried to nail him on it by asking repeatedly for him to post the results. He has IBE's full consent to post what he said he tested! He never did though. That was that.
.
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I still think that my account of the thread was pretty accurate, although I have no idea what conversations were had off of the board.

Patrick Arnold said:
I want everyone to get something straight. i bought that bottle primarily to USE it. i think this is an interesting compound and i just got out of prison and wanted help to lean up for the arnold classic.

And of course i tested it. i tested it cuz i CAN, just like why a dog licks his balls

F- everyone that is trying to make a controversy out of this. I did the right thing and told IBE what i found by email and asked for a refund. after several days of them ignoring me i came here to publically nudge them to do so. So friggin sue me

the hell is wrong with you people
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There's quite a bit more that went on...you can check the thread here if you're interested:

Invalid Link Removed

Its locked, but still up there. The converstaion in question starts on page 4.
 
Sigh. Are we really going to start importing this drama over here? I haven't seen one person who has taken Epistane or Havoc report ANYTHING negative. This in of itself is pretty remarkable. There's enough marketshare out there for everyone. When the players in this industry start attacking each other, it just brings unwanted attention and hurts us all.
 
yeahright said:
Sigh. Are we really going to start importing this drama over here? I haven't seen one person who has taken Epistane or Havoc report ANYTHING negative. This in of itself is pretty remarkable. There's enough marketshare out there for everyone. When the players in this industry start attacking each other, it just brings unwanted attention and hurts us all.
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Yep. It's sad isn't it?
 
yeahright said:
Sigh. Are we really going to start importing this drama over here? I haven't seen one person who has taken Epistane or Havoc report ANYTHING negative.
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and superdrol, when it first came out, was universally worshipped...until everyone got bloodwork and saw how trashed their lipids were. i'm not saying this will happen with epistane of course, but it illustrates the very important point that OBSERVED RESULTS FROM USERS ISNT THE ONLY MEASURE OF A COMPOUND. plenty of drugs can mess you up bad and you'd never know it outwardly.

still, epi does look like a winner...but we'd be retarded to NOT be curious if a...ahem....well-known and well-versed chemical user did a test on it and found something. this is exactly the kind of investigation we should be encouraging, and some of you all are trying to suppress it because "there's no reason to think it isnt ok." do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
 
Well if it was investigating and not mud slinging that would be acceptable.

He was asked repeatedly to post his findings which has not happened so why is this senseless bantering still going on?

Its back to the point I made there, people will believe what they want;whether fact or fiction based on who they are aligned with.This in itself is human nature unfortunately.
 
mmowry said:
Well if it was investigating and not mud slinging that would be acceptable.

He was asked repeatedly to post his findings which has not happened so why is this senseless bantering still going on?

Its back to the point I made there, people will believe what they want;whether fact or fiction based on who they are aligned with.This in itself is human nature unfortunately.
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that the issue has died on BB means i guess there is little to no hope of seeing any test results, or finding out what PA looked for or found. too bad.

who is mudslinging anyway? i didnt see that at all. perhaps your last comment is just a projection of your own bias (because it certainly does not represent most recreational users i know)
 
same_old said:
that the issue has died on BB means i guess there is little to no hope of seeing any test results, or finding out what PA looked for or found. too bad.

who is mudslinging anyway? i didnt see that at all. perhaps your last comment is just a projection of your own bias (because it certainly does not represent most recreational users i know)
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mudslinging by a lot of people over at BB.com...plus PA does come off a little abrasive... I don't think mmowry was talking about this thread.
 
same_old said:
that the issue has died on BB means i guess there is little to no hope of seeing any test results, or finding out what PA looked for or found. too bad.

who is mudslinging anyway? i didnt see that at all. perhaps your last comment is just a projection of your own bias (because it certainly does not represent most recreational users i know)
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The point I think mmowry, and others, were attempting to illustrate is the lack of empirical evidence by said chemical expert. PA, obviously, is the foremost authority on this subject manner; however, without him being forthcoming about these results I could literally care less.

Until we see what he found, I think it's rather irrelevant that he found something.
 
The thing is that he knowingly has stated several times the ethically compromised crap he has committed just in the sake of being in the business. His intelligence has never been in question. His bias and motives are. I have had bloodwork on Havoc and it came back fine but in the strictest form of effects on the body none of us wil know until much later down the line and even then it would be hard pressed to link any of these supplements with ailments we may get. It's not like Superdrol is used by millions for many years with studies to follow along.

The price is unknown but many are willing to pay it.
 
i really feel "if" he had found something that was truely harmul to the public thats taking the supp then he would have disclosed it, not pretended to do them a favor by only telling them (IBE supposedly) and then come out in the open that he HAD found something but he wont tell.... completely sounds like a bad way of throwing mud on someone else and then not showing in any way that he had found anything bad, just that he wanted his money back, knowing full well others would follow suit purely cause they worship their shepherd PA regardless of his empty findings.

so once again if there is anything bad the public, IBE and DR D personally have given him permission and asked that he would disclose his "reason for return" findings and he still hasnt..... cause nothing scares people more then what they might not know.....

pure publicity stunt:rasp:
 
same_old said:
and superdrol, when it first came out, was universally worshipped...until everyone got bloodwork and saw how trashed their lipids were. i'm not saying this will happen with epistane of course, but it illustrates the very important point that OBSERVED RESULTS FROM USERS ISNT THE ONLY MEASURE OF A COMPOUND. plenty of drugs can mess you up bad and you'd never know it outwardly.

still, epi does look like a winner...but we'd be retarded to NOT be curious if a...ahem....well-known and well-versed chemical user did a test on it and found something. this is exactly the kind of investigation we should be encouraging, and some of you all are trying to suppress it because "there's no reason to think it isnt ok." do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
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No no. If PA has something to say, then he should say it. The problem I have is the way people in this industry are always backstabbing each other, dropping anonymous calls to the feds on their competitors, starting rumors about competing products/personalities. It's just pathetic. There is more than enough marketshare to go around, these antics hurt everyone.

If PA tested a product and found something he didn't like (adulterant, underdosing, etc), then he should say so. Popping onto a message board and implying that he found something wrong with a product but not saying what is a sad game designed to screw with a competitor (Ergo and IBE are both releasing energy drinks now, ergo and IBE both have energy pills going head to head).
 
yeahright said:
If PA tested a product and found something he didn't like (adulterant, underdosing, etc), then he should say so. Popping onto a message board and implying that he found something wrong with a product but not saying what is a sad game designed to screw with a competitor (Ergo and IBE are both releasing energy drinks now, ergo and IBE both have energy pills going head to head).
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I think thats how he handled the whole problem with the bad batch of Rebound XT when he tested it and found it wasn't a "finished" product (something had happened during manufacturing). He told DS privately and let them take care of the problem...
 
Did PA state any findings in his e-mail or was he simply asking for his money back? If he did what were his findings on the GC/MS for weight. Did he send you the IR fingerprint? And did he run an NMR?
That all together should tell everything about the compound should'nt it.

I agree with Dr.D's statement that The MS says nothing except the weight so without a known structure it could be so many different chemicals.

I have full faith in Dr.D and IBE in general, and i dont want to in anyway contribute to any drama on the subject. I think you guys can see that it makes people feel uneasy this stuff being brought up. I also feel that this board is probably the best place to talk directly to you guys about it. In the end if PA was just rabble rousing he has accomplished his task and its a damn shame. There are still some people, including many of my friends and I that simply want to know what PA had said to your company.

If you feel this post does nothing but contribute to the drama I'm asking a mod to just remove it. Its simply my train of thought on the whole subject.
 
friction515 said:
Did PA state any findings in his e-mail or was he simply asking for his money back? If he did what were his findings on the GC/MS for weight. Did he send you the IR fingerprint? And did he run an NMR?
That all together should tell everything about the compound should'nt it.

I agree with Dr.D's statement that The MS says nothing except the weight so without a known structure it could be so many different chemicals.

I have full faith in Dr.D and IBE in general, and i dont want to in anyway contribute to any drama on the subject. I think you guys can see that it makes people feel uneasy this stuff being brought up. I also feel that this board is probably the best place to talk directly to you guys about it. In the end if PA was just rabble rousing he has accomplished his task and its a damn shame. There are still some people, including many of my friends and I that simply want to know what PA had said to your company.

If you feel this post does nothing but contribute to the drama I'm asking a mod to just remove it. Its simply my train of thought on the whole subject.
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OK, this is the whole story as best as I can see it, and I am on the 'inside' so I see it pretty well guys. I wish I didn't see it so well at this point, because some of the people I once greatly admired turned out to be sell out slime balls and this whole industry is going down for just a few rats that have chosen to self destruct if they can't have it all. If you guys don't take a stand right now against this kind of crap, you will have nobody to blame but yourselves because it's probably bringing powerful, detrimental forces into the mix that are going to shut it down if we don't have the ability to regulate ourselves in peace and truth!

The chromo he send me was nonsense. It didn't even cover the top end of the molecular weight we're looking for. Why only show half the range on the results summary report? It makes no logical sense. I can only guess because that way it makes the minor peaks have a greater relative abundance which can even make detector noise look like it may be a real peak! It's an old trick but still just a stunt. I guess it's the only angle they could think of to hit on. No truth to it, just a competitor that hates seeing it out sell his product, plain and simple, and doesn't care what it takes to stop it. Guys, I test this stuff. I know what's in it. The molecular weight he did point out was not even a primary peak and was way too low to be believable anyway. Honestly, that's when I knew he was up to something dishonest for sure. If that were the case, the stuff wouldn't even work. The product would have no activity at all with anything at that weight This is just a sad attempt to trash Epi. I did however send him my second assay, the results of which confirmed the good results of the first test. I tested it twice to be sure and I used a validated primary standard as a reference by FTIR analysis. All he used was an MS/GC, and he even admits he has no standard. It's it clear yet? He doesn't have a clue what he tested. With no standard and using an MS, he could only guess anyway even if he did have an idea, but it's much more sinister than that. This is about something else, and Epi is just collateral damage. Well guess what? I'm not letting it slide this time. This kind of corruption trashes real science. I mean, they didn't even try that hard to make this look believable. I guess they think you guys are stupid, and if you'd rather believe a man convicted of intentionally hiding **** in his own formulations over me, then you are! He must have gotten epi mixed up with one of his samples or tossed a little chuck of his stash in there before he tested it or something! LOL

If you really want the truth, this is what's honestly going on....

Now a character I shall refer to as BK is teaming up with PA to use his facility for testing and packaging now, right? OK, I can understand the nature of that immoral alliance, but there are 2 more players in this game. I will call one MM. Then the forth player and the common denominator that inspired all this. The mastermind who remains cloaked that now seeks to become like the one he claims to despise and who claims to despise him back. The one that has pushed a lot of product for PA back in the day for one thing and one that recently obtained my product idea after I had developed it years before. I can understand he feels cheated, because I'm sure he paid well for it and now Epi is doing better than his product, but it's not my fault and I will simply not take the hit for it. I even offered to align with him and help him out in the future because I'll still be here designing top products after his current stuff is long gone and he needs some help, but he chose to go with his old connections and the fast cash. I can understand I guess, but once again, it's not my fault and will not take it on as my problem! There is just no way to take Epi or IBE out without hitting me too, and that is where you'll lose. These lies always surface in time and come back to damage you so I'm not really concerned personally.

This is all about old favors owed and debts being settled and chips finally getting cashed. It's not about an honest concern to protect you from a bad product. If it was, I would insist he post results now to back him claims. Are you going to let him sit on that? It's his responsibility now to let everyone know what he found so demand it till he does! If he honestly found something wrong like he said, and doesn't tell you at this point, then do you really still think he gives a sh!t about you anyway?! Think about that while you praise him and worship him. That's not what this is about guys. This is about money and friends and enemies and friend's enemies forming money making alliances now. Oh yes, it is not what it seems and then again it is just exactly what you might expect to see... lies and treachery for the love of ****ing money. I tell you what though, truth will prevail in time, and much sooner than later if they step over that line and post some bunk results. I still invite them to.......

In the final days, enemies will live under the same roof. Persecution is also to be expected, but I'm not worried about it in the least. In fact, this battle is already over and won in my mind, because I know the truth and can show it if needed. Your trust is not misplaced with IBE and this product is what it claims to be no doubt. I can promise you that and really don't know what else to say. Either you can see now or you're just blind. These kind of con games hurt every single one of us and not just good, honest companies like IBE that don't deserve it.

If these people don't end this game now and end the lies about Epi, or post some results to finally back their claims, I hope you are all strongly moved to finally grow a pair and take a stand against them. Enough is enough and this hurts everybody in the end.
 
Thats exactly what i was wondering. It seems as though that was the case. I have seen epistane work on people for their first cycle and I have two bottles in the mail set to be here tues. It was just worrysome to see something like this come up with something my friends and I are putting in our bodies. Thank you for your response. IBE will have my loyalty untill physical proof is shown on the contrary.

By the way when you run the tests dont you only test the pure product before it makes it into the pills, you know before the fillers are in it and such. Could'nt he have zoomed in on a part of the field that was showing just filler and the GC/MS should spit out the weights for all the products so he could have just given you the weight of microcrystal cellulose or whatever else your company uses as fillers, if any.
 
friction515 said:
Thats exactly what i was wondering. It seems as though that was the case. I have seen epistane work on people for their first cycle and I have two bottles in the mail set to be here tues. It was just worrysome to see something like this come up with something my friends and I are putting in our bodies. Thank you for your response. IBE will have my loyalty untill physical proof is shown on the contrary.

By the way when you run the tests dont you only test the pure product before it makes it into the pills, you know before the fillers are in it and such. Could'nt he have zoomed in on a part of the field that was showing just filler and the GC/MS should spit out the weights for all the products so he could have just given you the weight of microcrystal cellulose or whatever else your company uses as fillers, if any.
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About the fillers, yes, it could be a binder or some MCC or a bad column or dirty glassware or a hundred things, as you know if you've even been an analyst. It could be a cold instrument or a detector glitch or you just changed your gas cylinders or anything! That's why I ran the test twice to be certain it was good before I started running my mouth. But I'm telling you, this is not a genuine charge anyway so it's pointless to ponder it and I only entertain the idea to answer your question. That's not what's happening here.

Besides, I know PA's chemist and he's a good one. He can extract the contents of a cap and run them with his eyes closed I'm sure. He could have zoomed in on an excipient peak like you said, but it looks like he didn't even let the vertical expand once the main peak came off. It looks like baseline noise to be honest. This is just a dirty game played by some cold people, but I plan to win if it keeps on after this because IBE is innocent and I've been honest and I'm tired of this ****.

Also, you and your friends are in good hands. That's my word and I take this seriously. I alpha test every compound and run bloodwork before I ever OK it to cap for beta testing much less consumers. That's as responsible as I can think to do it man. Probably more that anybody else did before they started selling this same compound, because me and SS's bloodwork are still the only results I've seen so far, yet IBE isn't the only company selling it. What else can I do? I will not tolerate any more lies though. This **** ends now.
 
DR.D said:
About the fillers, yes, it could be a binder or some MCC or a bad column or dirty glassware or a hundred things, as you know if you've even been an analyst. It could be a cold instrument or a detector glitch or you just changed your gas cylinders or anything! That's why I ran the test twice to be certain it was good before I started running my mouth. But I'm telling you, this is not a genuine charge anyway so it's pointless to ponder it and I only entertain the idea to answer your question. That's not what's happening here.

Besides, I know PA's chemist and he's a good one. He can extract the contents of a cap and run them with his eyes closed I'm sure. He could have zoomed in on an excipient peak like you said, but it looks like he didn't even let the vertical expand once the main peak came off. It looks like baseline noise to be honest. This is just a dirty game played by some cold people, but I plan to win if it keeps on after this because IBE is innocent and I've been honest and I'm tired of this ****.

Also, you and your friends are in good hands. That's my word and I take this seriously. I alpha test every compound and run bloodwork before I ever OK it to cap for beta testing much less consumers. That's as responsible as I can think to do it man. Probably more that anybody else did before they started selling this same compound, because me and SS's bloodwork are still the only results I've seen so far, yet IBE isn't the only company selling it. What else can I do? I will not tolerate any more lies though. This **** ends now.
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D,
Just in case it hasn't been said yet today. You are the F*CKING MAN!!!! Just incase you have yet to hear it today.

Adams
 
DAdams91982 said:
D,
Just in case it hasn't been said yet today. You are the F*CKING MAN!!!! Just incase you have yet to hear it today.

Adams
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I am just the messenger that works for Him actually, but God bless you old friend and I can't tell you how much the support mean Mr. Adams. I would not let you guys down. If you put your trust in me, I will come though or die trying!
 
well when he (PA) self destructs its one thing but now the fallout is reaching the good parts of the land and it isnt fair. i wish they woulda just kept him locked up longer n done us all a favor. i guess its time for us all to get our stockpiles in order cause who knows how bad this next explosion might be with dumbasses like that being so high up in the industry. allright im done with my metaphors and this thread it just pisses me off more and more just knowing this is going on and we are the real victims who will suffer in the end unless these asses are unseated...
 
DR.D said:
I am just the messenger that works for Him actually, but God bless you old friend and I can't tell you how much the support mean Mr. Adams. I would not let you guys down. If you put your trust in me, I will come though or die trying!
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And this right here, is why I take your advise to the "T". You havent let anyone down yet, and ALWAYS share your wisdom with others, without even the slightest attitude. Most would become jaded by now.

Bottom line, you are one of the Pillars of this community, and looking forward to what the future holds coming from the good Doc.

Adams
 
DAdams91982 said:
And this right here, is why I take your advise to the "T". You havent let anyone down yet, and ALWAYS share your wisdom with others, without even the slightest attitude. Most would become jaded by now.

Bottom line, you are one of the Pillars of this community, and looking forward to what the future holds coming from the good Doc.

Adams
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exactly my thoughts this man and the company (ibe) and representives(integrity )is what comes to mind .
 
Shady scheming plan backfiring... :numbered:

I've never had any drama with any people on this board. Mostly because I just keep my mouth shut. Even before Dr.D posted the details of the conspiracy theory, I PM'd him and said "You notice every time there's some petty thread about Epi and Havoc that always a certain somebody is right there to chime in. Well, this thread is a big ordeal, but who haven't we heard from yet?"
 
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