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Oconns28 Becomes the K1ng Slayer

Working a long one out of town today but I’m going to try and hit the gym as soon as I get back into town before going home.

Stepped up my breakfast game today!

- 2/3 cup oats
- Spoon of Chia Seeds
- Fresh raspberries and strawberries
- 1 Scoop of protein

-3 eggs
-red and green peppers
-ham
- little cheese on top

725 calories
 
Week 2 Day 4

Well after a long day I listened to my body and skipped the gym. My workout was going to be heavy deadlifts and I knew mentally as well as physically I just wasn’t going to be into it 100%.

Nailed my timing of king slayer and my diet for the day though!
 
Nailing diet is just as important as getting to the gym! And every needs off days from the gym.
 
Week 2 Day 5

Rest day from the gym but did some good hard work out around the house prepping to do a front walkway/patio.

K1ng Slayer thoughts

The increase in appetite is very real!!!
 
Oconns28 said:
Week 2 Day 5

Rest day from the gym but did some good hard work out around the house prepping to do a front walkway/patio.

K1ng Slayer thoughts

The increase in appetite is very real!!!
Click to expand...

Increase in appetite is always a plus when trying to pack on some lean muscle.
 
Ok so before I increase calories and can’t go back, I have had some discussions with people about their feelings that calories should stay the same during my entire log and others thinking to bump them up. Just going to tag a few more people here and hopefully get some more opinions of what people would want to see to make this log more useful to others. Hoping people will actually post some opinions. Thanks!
booneman77 The Solution Mowglisml dougefresh93 pyrobatt Jebrook xtyler NoAddedHmones GNO Woody VO2Maxima Danes TrainerTone thebigt Ricky10 LeanEngineer

Sorry if I’ve missed anyone that should be tagged!
 
I would think to keep diet the same. You already have some good starting data (from your 2nd post physique measurements). Why not keep things the same and see how much the product actually worked? Also, good to keep things the same like you did for major gains and give some comparable feedback.
 
I know this always becomes a big stink in logs but here’s my 2 cents (face value .01). I bought Kingslayer for the appetite boosting effect. I am trying to gain weight and force feeding is a bit difficult for me. In that regard, I have felt an appetite increase and will capitalize on it (as my original intent for purchasing). Would seem like a waste for me not to as this is my primary driving factor.
 
Oconns28 said:
Ok so before I increase calories and can’t go back, I have had some discussions with people about their feelings that calories should stay the same during my entire log and others thinking to bump them up. Just going to tag a few more people here and hopefully get some more opinions of what people would want to see to make this log more useful to others. Hoping people will actually post some opinions. Thanks!
booneman77 The Solution Mowglisml dougefresh93 pyrobatt Jebrook xtyler NoAddedHmones GNO Woody VO2Maxima Danes TrainerTone thebigt Ricky10 LeanEngineer

Sorry if I’ve missed anyone that should be tagged!
Click to expand...
I would increase calories within reason (~500cals/D) to utilize the nutrient partioning benefits.

I wouldn’t worry too much about people shaming your log because you are changing your diet slightly.
 
GNO said:
I would increase calories within reason (~500cals/D) to utilize the nutrient partioning benefits.

I wouldn’t worry too much about people shaming your log because you are changing your diet slightly.
Click to expand...
Yeah i mean it would be ideal to keep it the same but ive taken supps (mostly hormonal anabolics) that really kicked in my appetite and it sucks trying not to eat when you're starving all the time. Thats actually something im going through right now lol
 
Thanks to the people so far that have commented!

I totally get both sides and I’m torn.

A reason for me TO INCREASE is that KS claims to increase your appetite and well I honestly believe it has!
Also I believe KS is meant to be a bulking type supplement so to use it for what it’s intended would mean me eating more calories. To measure this I’d be looking at my measurements, scale weight, BF % and just before and after pictures.

To MAINTAIN the same, my reasons would be to see how I feel compared to when I wasn’t taking KS. What would I exactly be hoping for by taking a bulking supp while in a small caloric deficit? To maintain strength while reducing BF? Losing inches in the right places?
 
I can attest to the increase in appetite. My main goal in purchasing has been fulfilled as long as it continues on this way
 
Oconns28 said:
Ok so before I increase calories and can’t go back, I have had some discussions with people about their feelings that calories should stay the same during my entire log and others thinking to bump them up. Just going to tag a few more people here and hopefully get some more opinions of what people would want to see to make this log more useful to others. Hoping people will actually post some opinions. Thanks!
booneman77 The Solution Mowglisml dougefresh93 pyrobatt Jebrook xtyler NoAddedHmones GNO Woody VO2Maxima Danes TrainerTone thebigt Ricky10 LeanEngineer

Sorry if I’ve missed anyone that should be tagged!
Click to expand...
It’s very simple IMO. Use KS in a manner that supports your current fitness goal. OL sponsored this log but ultimately it’s your log and no one else’s. Our only concern would be using other supps that conflict with the results. Beyond that, if you want to bulk, then eat in surplus. Eat at maintenance if you want to recomp. Eat in a deficit to cut. In the end compare your results and review your experience honestly. Remember, this is a log and not a scientific study. KS will be used in all 3 types of situations so your experience be valid no matter what.
 
Jebrook said:
It’s very simple IMO. Use KS in a manner that supports your current fitness goal. OL sponsored this log but ultimately it’s your log and no one else’s. Our only concern would be using other supps that conflict with the results. Beyond that, if you want to bulk, then eat in surplus. Eat at maintenance if you want to recomp. Eat in a deficit to cut. In the end compare your results and review your experience honestly. Remember, this is a log and not a scientific study. KS will be used in all 3 types of situations so your experience be valid no matter what.
Click to expand...
Very well said and I agree 100%
 
I agree with what everybody already said here. I know some people are against changing your routine when logging a product but when you are logging a product that shines in a bulk, I see no reason not to switch up the variables a bit. Not crazy amounts, but a few tweaks here and there should definitely help.
 
Week 2 Day 6


Pull 1

Deadlift - (5/3/1) - 5x305, 3x345, 1x380
Meadow Row - (3x10-12) - 3x11x105
Leg Curl - (3x10-12) - 3x12x105
DB Pullover - (3x12-14) - 3x12x75
DB Hammer Curl - (10-14+Micros) - 13x40 + 5 Micro sets of 3
DB Shrugs - (1-10Hold) - N/A

Also went for a swim at a different gym before this workout.


I am a huge fan of Meadow Rows, I know I’ve said it before but I really feel them! Also I keep the rest periods short so I get a sweat going. I think my form might need a little work though

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Thoughts on KS

Just feeling good and crushing through my numbers. My stomach is always feeling good after meals and I don’t really feel that extra urge to use the toilet after taking KS, well at least I haven’t yet today.
 
tyga tyga posted this in my log before, but I agree with what he said in regards to running logs and gauging feedback:

Changing your total intake when logging and reviewing a product skews feedback. When you manipulate a variable (nutrition) you can’t 100% understand how well the product being reviewed. Therefore the controlled log will have a different outcome since you are changing a major aspect.

When dietary changes are made there will always be growth or loss (surplus or deficit) with or without a supplement.
Keep sleep time consistent
Dietary changes the same
And training frequency the same

Then add the supplement.

Once you start making small transitions and variations (ex, training intensty and volume) you benefit from that alone. However if you’re taking a “natural anabolic” at the same time, one starts to attribute the “gains” to the supplement when in reality it’s because you added another stimuli .

I am always an advocate when running logs to keep all factors consistent. The only thing you add is the supplement which will dictate in a controlled environment how well it matches what is expected out of the product.

Everyone can run "Their own log" how they want. I just find this is the best way to give 100% honest feedback when everything is said and done.
 
The Solution said:
tyga tyga posted this in my log before, but I agree with what he said in regards to running logs and gauging feedback:

Changing your total intake when logging and reviewing a product skews feedback. When you manipulate a variable (nutrition) you can’t 100% understand how well the product being reviewed. Therefore the controlled log will have a different outcome since you are changing a major aspect.

When dietary changes are made there will always be growth or loss (surplus or deficit) with or without a supplement.
Keep sleep time consistent
Dietary changes the same
And training frequency the same

Then add the supplement.

Once you start making small transitions and variations (ex, training intensty and volume) you benefit from that alone. However if you’re taking a “natural anabolic” at the same time, one starts to attribute the “gains” to the supplement when in reality it’s because you added another stimuli .

I am always an advocate when running logs to keep all factors consistent. The only thing you add is the supplement which will dictate in a controlled environment how well it matches what is expected out of the product.

Everyone can run "Their own log" how they want. I just find this is the best way to give 100% honest feedback when everything is said and done.
Click to expand...

I get what you’re saying but I don’t think if I was to add 200-300 cals and state that clearly in my log that it would mean I wasn’t given honest feedback. Now if I added the calories but didn’t post it, that would be shady or if I just started TRT or whatever else and didn’t say it.

If I up the calories slightly that will be the only additional change, everything else in my life is the exact same
 
Oconns28 said:
I get what you’re saying but I don’t think if I was to add 200-300 cals and state that clearly in my log that it would mean I wasn’t given honest feedback. Now if I added the calories but didn’t post it, that would be shady or if I just started TRT or whatever else and didn’t say it.

If I up the calories slightly that will be the only additional change, everything else in my life is the exact same
Click to expand...

A manipulation is just that. When changing nutrition there can be various factors that change over the course of weeks in a log as it does increase a surplus.

So it’s hard to say if you see weight gain, strength, mood, better sleep, endurance, recovery and other factors start to increase how much is X(supplement) and Y(nutritional changes)
 
The Solution I completely agree and won’t argue that to in fact run a truly accurate log to assess a product that manipulating variables skews results. Mine is unsponsored and my curiosity/goal was increased appetite. But once again, I do agree that to evaluate a product on its own standing all variables must be kept consistent. My situation is just a bit different for my own goal, and it has delivered to my satisfaction of said goal.
 
The Solution said:
A manipulation is just that. When changing nutrition there can be various factors that change over the course of weeks in a log as it does increase a surplus.

So it’s hard to say if you see weight gain, strength, mood, better sleep, endurance, recovery and other factors start to increase how much is X(supplement) and Y(nutritional changes)
Click to expand...

Sorry but I’ll have to disagree here, clearly stating an increase in calories for everyone to see and then running the log, stating everything I do wouldn’t be dishonest. It would be letting everyone see what I did and then letting them form their own opinions
 
Oconns28 said:
Sorry but I’ll have to disagree here, clearly stating an increase in calories for everyone to see and then running the log, stating everything I do wouldn’t be dishonest. It would be letting everyone see what I did and then letting them form their own opinions
Click to expand...

That’s perfectly fine
This is your log, do as you please.

It’s pretty clear since your inital concern of raising calories you had your mind made up, so you may as well do what you had planned and enjoy the ride.
 
The Solution said:
That’s perfectly fine
This is your log, do as you please.

It’s pretty clear since your inital concern of raising calories you had your mind made up, so you may as well do what you had planned and enjoy the ride.
Click to expand...

Anyone and everyone is welcome to their opinions.

In fact I haven’t made up my mind at all. Still haven’t actually. I wouldn’t ask people and question and look for their input if I had already made my decision.

I want to have my body at a certain point before I consider the increase. I’m close to it but I stated I would see where I’m at on Friday. With the appetite increase it has been a struggle to keep my calories in check but I’ve been hitting them! I am committed to running this log, I’ve been tracking my food everyday, logging my workouts, taking pics and measurements.

If anyone else wants to post feedback either way, it’s always appreciated
 
The Solution said:
tyga tyga posted this in my log before, but I agree with what he said in regards to running logs and gauging feedback:

Changing your total intake when logging and reviewing a product skews feedback. When you manipulate a variable (nutrition) you can’t 100% understand how well the product being reviewed. Therefore the controlled log will have a different outcome since you are changing a major aspect.

When dietary changes are made there will always be growth or loss (surplus or deficit) with or without a supplement.
Keep sleep time consistent
Dietary changes the same
And training frequency the same

Then add the supplement.

Once you start making small transitions and variations (ex, training intensty and volume) you benefit from that alone. However if you’re taking a “natural anabolic” at the same time, one starts to attribute the “gains” to the supplement when in reality it’s because you added another stimuli .

I am always an advocate when running logs to keep all factors consistent. The only thing you add is the supplement which will dictate in a controlled environment how well it matches what is expected out of the product.

Everyone can run "Their own log" how they want. I just find this is the best way to give 100% honest feedback when everything is said and done.
Click to expand...

I agree 200% with what The Solution says, if you change anything about your routine, sleep, training, macros, anything, then you won’t have a reliable test results, this is cause you’ll never know if whatever results you’re gonna have are related to the fact that you changed routine (training, macros, sleep, anything) or the supplement itself.

Every supplement should be tested WITHOUT applying any changes otherwise results will be not reliable.

A supplement that “needs” you to increase calories to build lean mass for example, to me is useless, I can save the money and invest my money on healthy food choices and proper dense food.

My two cents...
 
Jebrook said:
It’s very simple IMO. Use KS in a manner that supports your current fitness goal. OL sponsored this log but ultimately it’s your log and no one else’s. Our only concern would be using other supps that conflict with the results. Beyond that, if you want to bulk, then eat in surplus. Eat at maintenance if you want to recomp. Eat in a deficit to cut. In the end compare your results and review your experience honestly. Remember, this is a log and not a scientific study. KS will be used in all 3 types of situations so your experience be valid no matter what.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. :D
 
Xrkc6x said:
I agree 200% with what The Solution says, if you change anything about your routine, sleep, training, macros, anything, then you won’t have a reliable test results, this is cause you’ll never know if whatever results you’re gonna have are related to the fact that you changed routine (training, macros, sleep, anything) or the supplement itself.

Every supplement should be tested WITHOUT applying any changes otherwise results will be not reliable.

A supplement that “needs” you to increase calories to build lean mass for example, to me is useless, I can save the money and invest my money on healthy food choices and proper dense food.

My two cents...
Click to expand...

Couldn’t agree more. It’s pretty silly to alter a parameter right as you’re starting a supplement log. In my opinion it’s just pointless and it tells you absolutely nothing about the efficacy of the product. And it would be great if people stopped claiming that a product added weight/muscle when the product really just spikes your appetite. That doesn’t make it a good natty anabolic. There’s nothing anabolic about it that is specifically adding a significant amount of muscle. The only claim you can make from supplements like that is that it’s a great appetite booster and helps you to consume a surplus of calories.

Moral of the story- if you’re going to make claims on a product and the actual effect is has then you NEED to control EVERY variable with the exception of adding in the candidate supplement for analysis. Any scientist will tell you the same thing and it’s something most learned in junior high chem class.
 
Thanks guys! This is what I was hoping for just some honest feedback and avoiding it turning into an argument. I enjoy logging on AM and also like feedback from you guys.

I know the AM world has been on hold waiting for this decision(I’m clearly joking) but I think I will continue to hold at 2400 at least for another week.

Other than the increased hunger I have felt leaner and stronger so I might as well stick it out longer and see if I really can start to notice a difference and better yet get it to a point where it’s visible from pics to share.

Now that being said I am a married man with 3 kids under 5 so if I start to be a bear and get hangry I might have to consider upping my calories so my wife doesn’t kill me haha.

Seriously though thanks again everyone for their input and hope you all continue to give your feedback
 
The Solution said:
tyga tyga posted this in my log before, but I agree with what he said in regards to running logs and gauging feedback:

Changing your total intake when logging and reviewing a product skews feedback. When you manipulate a variable (nutrition) you can’t 100% understand how well the product being reviewed. Therefore the controlled log will have a different outcome since you are changing a major aspect.

When dietary changes are made there will always be growth or loss (surplus or deficit) with or without a supplement.
Keep sleep time consistent
Dietary changes the same
And training frequency the same

Then add the supplement.

Once you start making small transitions and variations (ex, training intensty and volume) you benefit from that alone. However if you’re taking a “natural anabolic” at the same time, one starts to attribute the “gains” to the supplement when in reality it’s because you added another stimuli .

I am always an advocate when running logs to keep all factors consistent. The only thing you add is the supplement which will dictate in a controlled environment how well it matches what is expected out of the product.

Everyone can run "Their own log" how they want. I just find this is the best way to give 100% honest feedback when everything is said and done.
Click to expand...

The Solution said:
A manipulation is just that. When changing nutrition there can be various factors that change over the course of weeks in a log as it does increase a surplus.

So it’s hard to say if you see weight gain, strength, mood, better sleep, endurance, recovery and other factors start to increase how much is X(supplement) and Y(nutritional changes)
Click to expand...

We have the same thought process.
 
While I would agree that drastically altering your diet or workout routine will definitely make it hard to tell if it's the supplement that is doing anything, a small increase isn't going to skew anything so much that it'll take away value from the log. As Jebrook stated, this is a log, not a scientific study. Furthermore, part of the benefit to K1ngslayer is the ability to increase appetite AND allow your body to take advantage of those calories. Assuming your goal is to gain mass, why limit the effect of the supplement by not allowing it to do one of the things it shines at? There's more than one KS log running...eat for your goal. If someone is reading hoping to hear about someone's experience with KS on maintenance or a cut, they can look for a log on that, or they can extrapolate from your log. Anyway, I'm assuming this wouldn't be the first time in your life that you've increased calories. I'm sure you can compare it to previous experiences. If you had to keep parameters exactly the same in order to evaluate a supplement, and you weren't able to just compare to previous experiences, no one would EVER be able to evaluate PCT supps, for example, since obviously there's going to be a big change in supplement protocol right before beginning those.
 
VO2Maxima said:
While I would agree that drastically altering your diet or workout routine will definitely make it hard to tell if it's the supplement that is doing anything, a small increase isn't going to skew anything so much that it'll take away value from the log. As Jebrook stated, this is a log, not a scientific study. Furthermore, part of the benefit to K1ngslayer is the ability to increase appetite AND allow your body to take advantage of those calories. Assuming your goal is to gain mass, why limit the effect of the supplement by not allowing it to do one of the things it shines at? There's more than one KS log running...eat for your goal. If someone is reading hoping to hear about someone's experience with KS on maintenance or a cut, they can look for a log on that, or they can extrapolate from your log. Anyway, I'm assuming this wouldn't be the first time in your life that you've increased calories. I'm sure you can compare it to previous experiences. If you had to keep parameters exactly the same in order to evaluate a supplement, and you weren't able to just compare to previous experiences, no one would EVER be able to evaluate PCT supps, for example, since obviously there's going to be a big change in supplement protocol right before beginning those.
Click to expand...

Very well said! Thank you for your input!
 
lol...reading thru the last few pages made me think of the old saying....opinions are like a$$holes, everyones got one
 
One more thing to consider is that your starting cals intake (2400/day) was most likely too low at your current size/activity level to sustain lean tissue accrural. I recommended just a slight cals increase, then re-evaluate after about 10-12 days. Adding 1500 cals overnight would certainly be silly and wouldn't allow to gauge the product's effectiveness.
Last but not least, IGF-1 supercharges anabolism so NO extra raw material would easily mean (partially) wasting a chance.
 
Week 2 Day 7


Did it right this time! Steak and eggs with a patato patty!

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I’ll hit the gym tonight for a squat push workout! Already had a good sweat going this morning moving interlocking brick and shoveling some dirt!
 
Oconns28 said:
Ok so before I increase calories and can’t go back, I have had some discussions with people about their feelings that calories should stay the same during my entire log and others thinking to bump them up. Just going to tag a few more people here and hopefully get some more opinions of what people would want to see to make this log more useful to others. Hoping people will actually post some opinions. Thanks!
booneman77 The Solution Mowglisml dougefresh93 pyrobatt Jebrook xtyler NoAddedHmones GNO Woody VO2Maxima Danes TrainerTone thebigt Ricky10 LeanEngineer

Sorry if I’ve missed anyone that should be tagged!
Click to expand...

If your goal is hypertrophy or more strength that = surplus
If your goal is fatloss= calorie deficit
As long as your protein is adequate(my rule of thumb is 1g per lb due to ease of tracking) the other 2 macros are KIND of irrelevant in terms of body comp as long as your fat doesn't dip below 15% of total calories(for most people)

I would adjust food in order to accomplish your goals. If you're jonesing for more calories then you may have one of the intended effects of king slayer.

It's up to you brother.
 
Week 2 Day 7

Well I went and F’d myself tonight! I should have trusted and stuck with my programming!

My squats have been weak and to be honest I neglected legs for years. Anyways I had set my 5/3/1 schedule of squats back a couple cycles because I tweaked my back a few weeks ago. Tonight I went through my 5/3/1 and my 1 rep of 265 felt so good I bumped it to 285(290 is my PR) on the way up I felt a oh cr@p feeling. It’s either a very low lat muscle or external oblique.

I’m thinking I’m going to have to take a break from heavy squats. It really bums me about because honestly this run so far of KS has me feeling strong and ready to break PRs!!
 
Oconns28 said:
Week 2 Day 7

Well I went and F’d myself tonight! I should have trusted and stuck with my programming!

My squats have been weak and to be honest I neglected legs for years. Anyways I had set my 5/3/1 schedule of squats back a couple cycles because I tweaked my back a few weeks ago. Tonight I went through my 5/3/1 and my 1 rep of 265 felt so good I bumped it to 285(290 is my PR) on the way up I felt a oh cr@p feeling. It’s either a very low lat muscle or external oblique.

I’m thinking I’m going to have to take a break from heavy squats. It really bums me about because honestly this run so far of KS has me feeling strong and ready to break PRs!!
Click to expand...
Where are you feeling it? Obliques would just be such an odd muscle to tweak during squats. Is it low back, kind of to the side? Just because stuff like quadratus lumborum are so much more common to tweak while squatting.
 
VO2Maxima said:
Where are you feeling it? Obliques would just be such an odd muscle to tweak during squats. Is it low back, kind of to the side? Just because stuff like quadratus lumborum are so much more common to tweak while squatting.
Click to expand...

It’s hard to say exactly but I could barely get out of bed this morning.

After searching Quadratus lumborum that looks about right!

If I move wrong I get a sharp pain. It’s on my left side and if I lean to the right side it’s much worse


On a positive note, just about killed me getting the scale out but I’m 181.2 today and other than my back I’m feeling lean and strong!
 

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super late....

1. looking lean
2. your log, your goals, do as you wish
3. love eggs, hate green peppers.
4. people still train legs?

carry on, and good work!
 
Oconns28 said:
It’s hard to say exactly but I could barely get out of bed this morning.

After searching Quadratus lumborum that looks about right!

If I move wrong I get a sharp pain. It’s on my left side and if I lean to the right side it’s much worse


On a positive note, just about killed me getting the scale out but I’m 181.2 today and other than my back I’m feeling lean and strong!
Click to expand...
YouTube ART for quadratus lumborum and find a friend willing to help.
 
Weight Tracker

Week 1 - 182.8

Week 2 - 184.4

Week 3 - 181.2

I feel mentally and physically like I’m in a great spot. If it wasn’t for hurting my back I’d say physically I’m feeling as good as ever!


Question - What else can I do/add to this log that people want to see and think would help?
 
SkRaw85 said:
I know this always becomes a big stink in logs but here’s my 2 cents (face value .01). I bought Kingslayer for the appetite boosting effect. I am trying to gain weight and force feeding is a bit difficult for me. In that regard, I have felt an appetite increase and will capitalize on it (as my original intent for purchasing). Would seem like a waste for me not to as this is my primary driving factor.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this. If you're trying to gain and it's increasing your appetite i would increase calories to get the most out of the product. Kingslayer is just going to help you capitalize on it even more.
 
Week 3 Day 2

Breakfast

38g of Protein
7g of Carbs
39g of Fat

* as much as I wanted to, I didn’t eat everything pictured

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Well my back is still killing me. My son was having a hard time in the night. I lifted him out of his crib with relatively no pain but when I went to lay him back down it was severe! I actually had to get my wife up just so she could lay him down in the crib. This pain is extremely frustrating in day to day life with young kids and of course with the gym just when I was feeling great.

Thoughts on KS

I’m feeling some pretty deep sleeps! There has been a couple wake ups the last 2 nights due to back pain and my son just having a hard time but overall I think they have been deep!
 
Oconns28 said:
Week 3 Day 2

Breakfast

38g of Protein
7g of Carbs
39g of Fat

* as much as I wanted to, I didn’t eat everything pictured

Invalid Link Removed


Well my back is still killing me. My son was having a hard time in the night. I lifted him out of his crib with relatively no pain but when I went to lay him back down it was severe! I actually had to get my wife up just so she could lay him down in the crib. This pain is extremely frustrating in day to day life with young kids and of course with the gym just when I was feeling great.

Thoughts on KS

I’m feeling some pretty deep sleeps! There has been a couple wake ups the last 2 nights due to back pain and my son just having a hard time but overall I think they have been deep!
Click to expand...

it will get better hopefully...last few workouts I was expecting to be sore the next day, not as sore as I expected---k1ngslayer???
 
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