New PA JISSN study

[Driven2lift]

Not in humans, but an area of interest for AM'ers and fresh of the JISSN presses

http://www.jissn.com/content/12/1/32

 

[kpeaceoutbye]

Didn't even see this thread. I just posted this in the PA forum asking what this means for us PA users because I thought I read something about a fasted state? Not sure I kinda skimmed through it tbh lol

 

[MidwestBeast]

subd for later

 

[Misfit28]

subbing. Haven't had a chance to read it yet.

 

[ma70]

From what I read, it proves that PA stimulates mTOR without ingesting protein or doing physical activity, as we've been assuming all along, right?

 

[booneman77]

subbed for convo

 

[kboxer7]

From what I read, it proves that PA stimulates mTOR without ingesting protein or doing physical activity, as we've been assuming all along, right?

Just briefed over it real quick and I think you are correct.

Confirming what we already knew. PA will indeed increase mTOR with or without protein and with or without physical activity (though to a greater extent with the addition of exercise stressors).

 

[ma70]

Just briefed over it real quick and I think you are correct.

Confirming what we already knew. PA will indeed increase mTOR with or without protein and with or without physical activity (though to a greater extent with the addition of exercise stressors).

Yeah, that's why we still choose (or most of us anyway) to dose on off days as well.

 

[kboxer7]

Yeah, that's why we still choose (or most of us anyway) to dose on off days as well.

I dose on off days for sure.

Besides, we all know muscle is built outside of the gym during recovery...so why anyone would NOT want to use PA on an off day when recovering is beyond me.

 

[ma70]

I dose on off days for sure.

Besides, we all know muscle is built outside of the gym during recovery...so why anyone would NOT want to use PA on an off day when recovering is beyond me.

Well it's probably different for those who spent 60 dollars on the concentrated PA products vs the 7 dollar Soy Lecithin Granule containers.

 

[kboxer7]

Well it's probably different for those who spent 60 dollars on the concentrated PA products vs the 7 dollar Soy Lecithin Granule containers.

True.

Don't forget, Phosphatidyl Serene can be bought in bulk fairly cheap and works via the same exact MOA as PA (though to a lesser extent). Would almost need 2x the dost of PS to equal PA. But it is an option.

 

[Volvo140G]

Nice find

 

[kpeaceoutbye]

So, is it best to dose (on off-days) PA in between meals for MPS kind of like leucine, or am I an idiot?

Or keep dosing with food as an emulsifier?

 

[WigBrah]

Just briefed over it real quick and I think you are correct.

Confirming what we already knew. PA will indeed increase mTOR with or without protein and with or without physical activity (though to a greater extent with the addition of exercise stressors).

I would just add to this that, to my reading, it also suggests that PA may slightly blunt/delay mTOR singaling from leucine/whey protein when taken simultaneously:

"MPS levels in the gastrocnemius were significantly (p < 0.05) elevated in WPC versus CON rats, and tended to be elevated in PA versus CON rats (p = 0.08), though MPS was less in PA + WPC versus WPC rats (p < 0.05) in spite of robust increases in mTOR pathway activity markers in the former group."

So, if resistance training isn't needed, if you're one to have a shake PWO, save the PA for later, I guess?

This a rat study though, so will be interested to hear what some the other PA guys say. Subbed.

Thanks for sharing, "Driven2lift"

 

[kbayne]

The main limitations in the study are the doses used and exercise -- but it seems the main point is that it may not be in your greatest benefit to dose Whey Protein Concentrate with your Phosphatidic Acid.

Another interesting aspect of the study is PA ability on GLUT-4.

 

[ma70]

Danes

 

[Danes]

Just briefed over it real quick and I think you are correct.

Confirming what we already knew. PA will indeed increase mTOR with or without protein and with or without physical activity (though to a greater extent with the addition of exercise stressors).

This!

 

[Danes]

The main limitations in the study are the doses used and exercise -- but it seems the main point is that it may not be in your greatest benefit to dose Whey Protein Concentrate with your Phosphatidic Acid.

Another interesting aspect of the study is PA ability on GLUT-4.

I really see no point taking PA with Whey anyway

 

[kpeaceoutbye]

Soooo the point is, take it away from quality protein sources, or just effing take it whenever off days and pre-workout training days like I have been doing?? I am much confused lolz

 

[Jiigzz]

Soooo the point is, take it away from quality protein sources, or just effing take it whenever off days and pre-workout training days like I have been doing?? I am much confused lolz

I wouldnt over think it too much. Increases in MPS over time do not necessarily equate to more muscle mass. Its just an optimization of the pathway

 

[kdubson14]

MPS was only measured at the 3h mark. They point out this weakness in the discussion

 

[kbayne]

I really see no point taking PA with Whey anyway

Agreed.

 

[kbayne]

MPS was only measured at the 3h mark. They point out this weakness in the discussion

They point out all the limitations.

 

[kboxer7]

I wouldnt over think it too much. Increases in MPS over time do not necessarily equate to more muscle mass. Its just an optimization of the pathway

Very good point.

The body must be primed for building muscle in the first place. Increasing MPS during those times the body is most likely to be repairing/building muscle is the aim.

 

[ma70]

I don't think it's problematic. I guess my habits are taking all my PA before my workout, and by the time my workout is done, it will have been 2-3 hours and by then I end up taking my shake or whatever.

I don't know many lifters who take whey + PA at the same time. (just pointing out that by coincidence, people have been doing fine with PA dosing away from Whey)

 

[Danes]

I know many people (including me) have experienced increased Appetite with PA/SL.

"It should also be noted that serum was not obtained from these animals and, given that Glut-4 mRNA transiently increases in PA-fed rats, future research should examine how dietary PA effects the post-prandial hormonal milieu (i.e., potential PA-mediated increases in insulin). Finally, the potential metabolic effects of PA supplementation beyond skeletal muscle hypertrophy (i.e., the effects of PA supplementation on glucose tolerance and/or appetite given that hypothalamic mTORC1 activation is anorectic*[38]) may unveil PA as a nutraceutical candidate in populations beyond resistance-trained athletes."

 

[Nyrin]

I know many people (including me) have experienced increased Appetite with PA/SL.

"It should also be noted that serum was not obtained from these animals and, given that Glut-4 mRNA transiently increases in PA-fed rats, future research should examine how dietary PA effects the post-prandial hormonal milieu (i.e., potential PA-mediated increases in insulin). Finally, the potential metabolic effects of PA supplementation beyond skeletal muscle hypertrophy (i.e., the effects of PA supplementation on glucose tolerance and/or appetite given that hypothalamic mTORC1 activation is anorectic*[38]) may unveil PA as a nutraceutical candidate in populations beyond resistance-trained athletes."

That study is saying the opposite; an anorectic is an appetite suppressant, not a stimulant. The conclusion here is saying that PA may be useful as a weight loss aid in overweight populations.

From the FT of the referenced article (38, "Anorexigenic and Orexigenic Hormone Modulation of Mammalian Target of Rapamycin Complex 1 Activity and the Regulation of Hypothalamic Agouti-Related Protein mRNA Expression"):

Activation of mammalian target of rapamycin 1 (mTORC1) by nutrients, insulin and leptin leads to appetite suppression (anorexia). Contrastingly, increased AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) activity by ghrelin promotes appetite (orexia).

For what it's worth, I found my SL-enhanced oatmeal noticeably more "filling;" then again, I threw protein powder in there, so I was doing it wrong

 

[Danes]

That study is saying the opposite; an anorectic is an appetite suppressant, not a stimulant. The conclusion here is saying that PA may be useful as a weight loss aid in overweight populations.

From the FT of the referenced article (38, "Anorexigenic and Orexigenic Hormone Modulation of Mammalian Target of Rapamycin Complex 1 Activity and the Regulation of Hypothalamic Agouti-Related Protein mRNA Expression"):



For what it's worth, I found my SL-enhanced oatmeal noticeably more "filling;" then again, I threw protein powder in there, so I was doing it wrong

I do know anorectic is an appetite suppressant BUT dont forget the power of GLUT4. Keep in mind, those words below are from a scientist:
That's them assuming that based on mTORC1 having satiating effects but one should keep in mind that GLUT4 is upregulated, this clears out blood glucose more efficiently in which can lead to hunger.