BamBam0319
Well-known member
OL outshining BSL... Why am I not surprised?
MK-677
- Thread starter WhatsaRoid?
- Start date
OL outshining BSL... Why am I not surprised?
jake1986
Member
Yeah I have OL too. I stick with 10mg though because I get all the benefits and no noticeable bloat. So 2 bottles makes 6 months for me
Maybe I'll experiment with that.
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Everyone's different. For me 10mg gives me all the benefits with less of the sides.
kboxer7
Well-known member
Could always turbocharge that dose with a somatostatin inhibitor too : )
LiftWithDonuts
Well-known member
What are the major sides that people are experiencing when they take more than 20mg ed?
cheeky1
Active member
I can't say that OL Ghar1ne is better than MK Ultra as I never ran Ultra at 10mg, simply that what i'm experiencing at 10mg is similar to my 20mg run. When I go to 20mg of Ghar1ne - now that will be a fair comparison.
BamBam0319
Well-known member
I do! 6-9mg of melatonin every night.
LiftWithDonuts
Well-known member
Same here. I've been doing 30mg along with 9mg melatonin a night for about a week
cheeky1
Active member
Yup, I got awesome sleeps for a couple of weeks at 20mg then that effect slowly wore off. Enjoy it while it lasts!
You guys are going to just wet yourselves at 20mg then! :veryhappy:
No sides at any dose for me, apart from initial dose at 20mg which gave me awful sides for the first night. After that it was smooth sailing.
No additional sides at 30mg either, but that was a short time spent at that dose & I didn't really see much improvement over 20mg.
I have sleep apnoea & adrenal fatigue so lethargy is difficult to gauge, though I do sleep better on MK & have just run 5 weeks no stims & reset my adrenals so feeling pretty good during the day.
cheeky1
Active member
It's a sound top up, but I wouldn't recommend every day use. Try & keep it for working days & let your body do it's own thing on days you don't have to get up & charge. Either that or cycle it, as in time you will become dependent on the external Melatonin & natural production will drop considerably.
If there are stim addicts reading this then go for Valerian also/instead as it counters the effects of caffeine. I find the liquid products much more effective than capsules.
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Interesting, I hadn't heard that before. I'm off MK677 for the time being to log a sleep aid supplement but when I get back on I was thinking about using Huperzine A.
I've heard several good things on Valerian, have had plans to investigate it in the near future as well.
sinewave3
Member
Good advice, but people on methylated compounds may want to keep the valerian dose low. It can cause liver stress over the long term or if the dose is high.
cheeky1
Active member
True. like anything, research a little & make sure there are no counters to existing products. I treat Valerian the same as Melatonin - only when necessary.
9mg of Melatonin is high too, i'd be wary of using more than 5-6mg as higher dosages may shut down natural production.
Toren
Well-known member
Agree with Cheeky! 6-9 mg of Melatonin is not a good thing at all. Definitely cycle it as well. I would write more about this topic but it's late and most of it has been covered. Just be careful with the Melatonin boys.
Huperzine A is great but should be cycled as well. I am on a 2 on/2 off or 3 on/2 off weekly protocol with the Hup A. Seems to be working great and no sleep issues with it at all.
Huperzine A is great but should be cycled as well. I am on a 2 on/2 off or 3 on/2 off weekly protocol with the Hup A. Seems to be working great and no sleep issues with it at all.
Toren
Well-known member
I wish. Unfortunately what I have noticed is diffuse thinning and recession of my hairline. I have honestly never experienced anything like this in my life. It has been quite drastic to say the least. The only thing I have been taking for the last while is Ghar1ne (Oct. 23) and BAIBA for a couple of weeks or so.
There is a chance that the hairloss is just a result of my last DHT-based cycle but that ended in mid-August. I did thin on cycle but it stabilized and has now taken off again in recent weeks. I understand the nature of hairloss as I have studied it quite a bit, so I will hold off judgement for now...
The other thing I have noticed is a bit of back acne since I started MK. I have NEVER had back acne in my entire life, no matter what I cycled.
Hopefully these things settle down. They are curious almost androgenic-related sides though...
cheeky1
Active member
That's curious alright. My hair grows like wild fire anyway so can't say that it's noticeably thickened any out of the ordinary - but it most certainly has not thinned or receded. I have a little bacne, courtesy of LGD, can't recall it being an issue on my last MK cycle.
Very curious, I wonder if your hormone levels are a little off? Got any mild PCT products you can take to see if things settle down?
xtyler
Well-known member
Well, IGF-1 mediates the effect of androgens in several tissues.
On a side note, I can now officially say this has been my most successful PCT in 15 years. With Ghar1ne and Burn24 I'm still just as big, strong and full, feel fantastic, eating like a horse with zero fat gain.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Just to confirm, you ARE NOT taking ArA? I swear ArA made my hair fall out.
Re: Melatonin - I take a 5mg sub-lingual tab and 1/4 it in a pill cutter (1.25mg) - is that enough as a Somatostain inhibitor?
Re: Hup-A - when *exactly* is the best time to take this to help Mk-677? (It's also in my current PrWO, which I take every other day around 10AM, 50mcg IIRC).
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
I take Valerian pretty often, but what dose do you use to counteract caffeine?
kboxer7
Well-known member
Hup- a has a half life over 24hrs, but dosing away from bed time is recommended as it interferes with sleep for some.
Lynks8
Well-known member
I've been taking 10mg ed for a month and 20mg ed now for 1 week. I have also begun to notice some diffuse thinning and more hairs falling out in the shower. A study showed a correlation between high levels of IGF-1 and MPB, but it didn't conclusively prove it to be a causal factor.
I've also read that high levels of IGF-1 can downregulate thyroid function, which may also cause hair loss.
I am drawing no conclusions thus far, but I will be looking into this further as I'm prone to MPB and will cease my Ghar1ne run immediately if it might be causing any hair loss. If anyone has more thoughts on this subject, I'd love to hear them.
I've also read that high levels of IGF-1 can downregulate thyroid function, which may also cause hair loss.
I am drawing no conclusions thus far, but I will be looking into this further as I'm prone to MPB and will cease my Ghar1ne run immediately if it might be causing any hair loss. If anyone has more thoughts on this subject, I'd love to hear them.
xtyler
Well-known member
Funny how we all react differently...
I'm using Ghar1ne in PCT and I swear hair is thicker and shiner. Also nails growing at an annoying rate.
From the studies I've seen, MK-677 has either no effect on T3 or causes a slight increase in free T3
criticalbench
Legend
12.5mg bloated me to much
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
I believe my nails and hair have been growing at an annoying rate as well.
hamdysayed
Well-known member
So hold up ppl experience hair thinning from this .. damn
xtyler
Well-known member
...and some, hair growth.
cheeky1
Active member
Good question & not one I have a reliable answer for i'm afraid. What I can tell you is that when I was really hitting the stims hard...and i'm now suspecting that MK did indeed cause me lethargy...I used a product that gave me 1000mg of Valerian in approx. 2ml of non-alcohol liquid. This worked well, but I reserved its use for nights when I knew I was going to be short on sleep &/or have to be up early for work.
Like melatonin, I use it only when necessary. I also have a "Slumber" formula that offers 2000mg/2ml of a herbal complex including valerian, hops, passionflower & skullcap, precise quantities unknown. This works ok, I use it when off the stims & need a good nights sleep.
Cycle your melatonin guys, try 2.5 - 3mg/night for no more than 5 nights/week with the MK. Max 5 - 6mg/night. Cycle off after 6 - 8 weeks for at least 2 weeks, 4 - 6 weeks better. Most sleep formulas from the supp co's (that I've seen) use 5mg of melatonin, if using one of them run it ED for a month then take a break, switch to herbal formulas if need be.
Toren if you can add anything further to this please do.
LiftWithDonuts
Well-known member
I've been using mk 677 for a little over a week and today idk if it was placebo after reading through this or not but the lethargy was serious as well as the hunger. Pre workout didn't even fix it, finished my workout but damn it was tough
cheeky1
Active member
It can be pretty brutal. Try to avoid increasing your stims, instead extra rest & increased calories may be of assistance. Many posters on AM have reported a lessening of the lethargy over time.
Has anyone added in Carderine as a potential MK lethargy cure?
Rocket3015
Legend
I have been on 20mg of MK for about a week now, No increased hunger or lethargy just some numbing of the left hand and better sleep.
LiftWithDonuts
Well-known member
It's started to wear off. I'm only using stims around workout times so I'm not increasing caffeine intake. It was basically a day and a half that were horrible.
I'm on 30mg nightly and I'm not noticing hunger either. But I did notice pretty serious lethargy. Are you using gharnine?
LiftWithDonuts
Well-known member
And sleep was amazing the first few nights but now that affect has worn off somewhat. The first few nights I slept like 8.5 hours easy. Now I'm getting 6-6.5
cheeky1
Active member
Was the same for me, I hadn't slept that well in decades!
Toren
Well-known member
I don't believe my hormone levels are off. From experience, there are tell-tale signs for me. Issues with libido, energy, moodiness, dry or oily skin, lethegy, etc. My last PCT went very well and I have had no issues since with any of the above mentioned areas.
There is quite a lot of different opinions on IGF-1 and hairloss/growth. Some people experience thinning on it and others say it is the latest cure for people suffering from MPB. There is a bit of reseach on IGF-1 and HGH and head hair and I have learned quite a bit from reading. Having said that, I do not believe my hairloss over the past while has much to do with Androgenic Alopecia as I have had many years of consistent hair cycles from devoted AA counter-measures. This new hairloss is definitely different and may have something to do with IGF-1 receptors sites in the scalp. I'm still learning. As usual, us human beings are still in the infancy stages of understanding the complexities of the human body.
Definitely no ARA for me. I don't have any interest in that compound.
I am not the best one to answer the question on Melatonin and somatostatin inhibition. From what I have read, much higher doses than 1.25mg are needed as it weak in the action of soma' inhibition. I see most people experimenting with 5-15 mg ED to achieve the desired affect. That's just foolish to me. There are other things such as Hup-A/EGCG and Horny Goat Weed that are better for that specific purpose. As far as sleeping goes, 1.25 mg is a perfect moderate dose. There have been studies showing that 0.3 mg is a highly affective dose to help with sleep. I beliieve anything over 3 mg is excessive. Melatonin can have some very negative sides for some people, especially when using too much and for too long of a duration. Side-effects such as depression, headaches, dificulty sleeping and desensitization can occur. I have experienced all of them when I used too much and for too long. This was many years ago now. I am fine with melatonin in moderation and when cycled conservatively.
I take 100 mcg of Hup-A with my MK-677 appx. 60 minutes before bed. The combo gives me incredible dreams and no difficulty with falling or staying asleep. I then take another 100 mcg of Hup-A in the morning with 250mg of EGCG, to help with the absorption of the Hup-A and with crossing the blood-brain barrier. Recommendation for Hup-A are using 100 mcg 2-3x daily and cycled 2 weeks on/2 weeks off or something like that. If Hup-A gives you trouble sleeping, you can just take your doses during the day, as it has a long half-life and the acute effects won't be as noticeable at night.
I have read both of those things as well. I have decided not to bump my dose up to 20mg and will stay at 10mg for another 2 weeks or so. If I see continual shedding, I will have plenty of bottles of Ghar1ne to sell in the future. If it stabilizes a bit, I may stay on 10mg for a while. I like Ghar1ne for all of the positives but it is not worth going bald earlier than necessary.
Here is a Invalid Link Removed with excerpts of some studies (somewhat older).
Mine have too. Unfortunately, in the case of my hair, there is less of it to grow quickly.
I believe this is the case in my circumstance. Of course for every one that experience this, there appears to be more people that see the opposite result.
I am a bit more conservative in my recommendations for melatonin than you are. This is of course based upon my somewhat negative experiences in the past and seeing disrupted sleep and headaches form others as well, especially when abusing the compound. Whether using melatonin for improving sleep or for another reason altogether, I would not recommend taking more than 3 mg a night and for more than 3-4 nights a week. I'd also recommend taking equal time off. Having said that, I don't see a major problem (if you see no negative sides) with taking 5+ mg on a once in a blue moon occasion. This doesn't do much for somatostatin inhibition though. As I mentioned above, there are better options for this, such as Huperzine-A/EGCG and Horny Goat weed. Keep in mind though that Somatostatin is not something we want to inhibit for long periods of time as it's inhibitory nature is responsible for peforming inhibitory functions elsewhere in the body.
I agree (as far as help with sleep) that swapping out melatonin for things like Valerian, lemon balm, skullcap etc is better than staying on melatonin for long periods of time. I ddin't find that valerian did much for me but it was around the time of excessive melatonin consumption and that may have been a strong influencing factor. I like a mild dose of melatonin (1.5 mg) with 100 mg of L-theanine and 15 mg of L-5-HTP.
Rocket3015
Legend
PRIMEVAL EPI-GH
BamBam0319
Well-known member
So for those that are more knowledgeable on this than I, what is a somatostatin inhibitor that doesn't have to be cycled or used sparingly?
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Somatostatin is a GHIH - Growth Hormone Inhibiting Hormone.
BamBam0319
Well-known member
I know this... I was asking if anyone knew of an inhibitor of somatostatin that didn't need to be cycled or utilized sparingly. Since some of the more knowledgeable individuals here informed me that melatonin shouldn't be used daily for an indefinitely length of time.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Lol it's no big deal. Just trying to find a way to maximize my 10mg MK 677 daily when I start it again
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Delta sleep inducing peptide is supposed to be really strong somatistatin inhibitors. Plus i heard the shyt gives you the best sleep ever. I don't know if it needs to be cycled though
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Yeah, me too. I'll be starting either in Feb for an Ostarine Cut (GH is great for fat loss) if the hunger doesn't do me in - or in August for an LGD cycle. I'm going to try Toren's Huperzine-A recommendations for Somatostatin inhibition.
BamBam0319
Well-known member
Interesting, I'll look into it. Never used peptides before.
Yes definitely me too.
kboxer7
Well-known member
Melatonin.
Only take it at night though. Not as strong of an inhibitor as Hup-a but there are numerous studies on long term use.
BamBam0319
Well-known member
I know it's a somatostatin inhibitor but some of the guys were saying that you shouldn't use it indefinitely on a daily basis as it can shut down your natural production of melatonin. I already take it, but will now be cycling on and off of it and being careful with my dosages. I was looking for other candidates.
Rocket3015
Legend
I have used melatonin everyday for years. Maybe I should start cycling it ???????????????
kboxer7
Well-known member
I like to cycle it, but there have been LONG term studies on safe continuous use.
Not saying it shouldn't be cycled, just that it appears safe to do so.
Rocket3015
Legend
kboxer7
Well-known member
Toren
Well-known member
In my opinion, there are none that you should take indefinitely without cycling off for a brief period of time. Somatostatin plays a role in many different parts of the body and long-term inhibition may not be desireable. FWIW, I noticed very little difference during the 2 weeks I cycled off Hup-A when compared to the previous time I was on it. There may have been a slight difference in sleep and energy. Hup-A has the ability to increase energy levels and memory. I do notice that I am more alert now after being back on Hup-A since Friday. You could try a 2 week on/1 week off protocol if you wanted.
Somatostatin also plays a role in inhibiting prolactin so if you are stacking MK-677 with a 19-Nor, you'd be well-advised to watch for that if you are inhibiting soma'. GH tends to increase prolactin anyways.
Here is a list of somatostatin inhibitors (provided by russianstar on another forum)
"The best of these Acetylcholineesterase inhibitors and there are lots like..
Physostigmine
Neostigmine
Pyridostigmine
Ambenonium
Demarcarium
Rivastigmine
Phenanthrene derivatives
Galantamine
Piperidines
Donepezil, also known as E2020
Tacrine, also known as tetrahydroaminoacridine (THA')
Edrophonium
Huperzine A
Ladostigil,
Of the ones ive tried Huperzine A is the very best, and fairly cheap, now by adding ECGCs from green tea, as these ECGCs will transport the huperzine better so finding the receptor it needs the effects are even stronger on inhbiting the acetylcholineesterase.
Otherwise a really good one i used recently was Horny goat weed, its the only one i know that actualy increases acetylcholine as it inhibits the enzyme acetylcholinesterase."
Personally speaking, I would. Melatonin is so much more than just a sleep aid or a means to re-setting your Circadian rhythm. It works as an anti-oxidant and can be both inflammatory and anti-inflammatory. One thing I did not know about it until recently is that people with auto-immune diseases (such as psoriasis and rheumatoid arthritis) should avoid melatonin use as it may stimulate an already over-stimulated immune system.
Here's a good read on Invalid Link Removed.
Kboxer7 is right though. Plenty of people tolerate Melatonin usage for long periods of time. I guess it just depends on the person. For me though, it is a synthetic drug and I like to use it only when required. Heck, I even cycle my fat-soluble vitamins
.