is amentoflavone bunk??

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carmaf said:
It seems like it's always bodybuilders that will swear by/try anything and everything under the sun, but never any other athletes, and yet somehow, they get by just fine. Bodybuilding wasn't changed by any supplement, but rather by Dorian Yates bringing a whole new level of roid usage into the game and more effective roids/the rise of HGH/insulin abuse.

You've obviously have never been around elite level athletes. I've spoken to a certain infamous Canadian Olympic gold medalist. They would take anything if it meant it would give them an edge.....but first the stuff has to actually work. They spend thousands upon thousands on all the illegal/dangerous stuff, so it's "simple economics" that a 40 dollar bottle of AmentoMax will break their bank? I guess they prioritized their finances wrong.

All the effective supplements like creatine, caffeine, whey, etc. have stood the test of time for a reason, bc they are simple and they work.

I've said my piece, I'm not going to argue with you. It's your life, your body, your pocketbook. Do what you enjoy and works for you, as long as you enjoy doing it, bc life is short.
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You obviously didn't read my post.
 
nattydisaster said:
Yes. In the case of Mucuna there is also other compounds that have a positive effect on HPTA that are unrelated to L-DOPA. For some reason though, when I take lower % extracts of L-DOPA i get way more nauseous mg for mg than a high % L-DOPA. It may just be me
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Thoughts on itpp
 
jimbuick said:
You obviously didn't read my post.
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I did. I'm not trying to convince you, just think about this. Let's say an Olympic program is willing to spend 20k a month on an athlete for just their steroids/hgh/masking agents etc., let alone their food, housing etc.....do you really think even an extra 1000 a month(which is a **** ton considering how relatively cheap most supps are) for all the fancy supplements under the sun is going to make a difference? Money is never a concern at this level of athletics for the countries that can afford it. Their only concern is gaining an edge, and if any of this stuff ever gave anyone an edge, everyone would be using it like immediately. Maybe some supps (Beta-Alanine, Citrulline-Malate) will stand the test of time, but they are still a ways away from doing that.
 
carmaf said:
I did. I'm not trying to convince you, just think about this. Let's say an Olympic program is willing to spend 20k a month on an athlete for just their steroids/hgh/masking agents etc., let alone their food, housing etc.....do you really think even an extra 1000 a month(which is a **** ton considering how relatively cheap most supps are) for all the fancy supplements under the sun is going to make a difference? Money is never a concern at this level of athletics for the countries that can afford it. Their only concern is gaining an edge, and if any of this stuff ever gave anyone an edge, everyone would be using it like immediately. Maybe some supps (Beta-Alanine, Citrulline-Malate) will stand the test of time, but they are still a ways away from doing that.
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If they are spending all that money and taking all that, they will notice almost nothing from an OTC supp...

If they aren't spending that money or taking anything, you have people like Ray Lewis stating Deer Antler Velvet Spray is working.

Either way, I think its a bad example.
 
carmaf said:
I did. I'm not trying to convince you, just think about this. Let's say an Olympic program is willing to spend 20k a month on an athlete for just their steroids/hgh/masking agents etc., let alone their food, housing etc.....do you really think even an extra 1000 a month(which is a **** ton considering how relatively cheap most supps are) for all the fancy supplements under the sun is going to make a difference? Money is never a concern at this level of athletics for the countries that can afford it. Their only concern is gaining an edge, and if any of this stuff ever gave anyone an edge, everyone would be using it like immediately. Maybe some supps (Beta-Alanine, Citrulline-Malate) will stand the test of time, but they are still a ways away from doing that.
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What about all of the other professional athletes? The ones that don't have governments backing them significantly?

Notice I said that there is no reason for them to use these supplements when their money can be better spent on more drugs, more food, etc.

No one hear is saying that amentoflavone is going to produce more significant results than either of those things (and I don't recall ever seeing anyone saying that about any supplements on this board). Why spend your money on something that may make a miniscule difference at that level (because of all the other factors) when you could spend that money on other things that are guaranteed to be more effective?
 
You guys both just made some good points, It's just my contention that you will see a negligible effect from most supps whether you are completely natural or otherwise. If something is effective it is effective, period. Caffeine is effective, which is why it is used by so many people all over the world for a variety of reasons. Creatine is effective, fact, which is why it is used by both natural and enhanced athletes alike, even though the effects are not earth-shattering for either athlete. Top level athletes would pay for something that would help, no matter how marginally.

I think the supp industry sells this myth that you can be in a state that is between natural and synthetically-enhanced, when I just think it's not true. You are either natural and taking stuff that doesn't work, or you are not and are taking stuff that does, there is no stopgap.
 
Admin said:
If they are spending all that money and taking all that, they will notice almost nothing from an OTC supp...

If they aren't spending that money or taking anything, you have people like Ray Lewis stating Deer Antler Velvet Spray is working.

Either way, I think its a bad example.
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Two points:
1. Olympic athletes don't want to risk putting supplements in their body due to rigorous testing done by wada, even a minuscule cross contamination can ruin a career. That is why usain bolts diet is literally grilled chicken and skittles because Wada tests him so often.

2 . Although an OTC supp may have a very small impact, remember at this level a small impact can have huge results. Big difference running a 9.69 in the 100m v 9.73
 
Are Skittles bunk?
 
braskibra said:
Two points:
1. Olympic athletes don't want to risk putting supplements in their body due to rigorous testing done by wada, even a minuscule cross contamination can ruin a career. That is why usain bolts diet is literally grilled chicken and skittles because Wada tests him so often.

2 . Although an OTC supp may have a very small impact, remember at this level a small impact can have huge results. Big difference running a 9.69 in the 100m v 9.73
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I.highly doubt Bolt is an all natural athlete

No way in hell
 
carmaf said:
You are either natural and taking stuff that doesn't work
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I dont think it's that 'blatant' or black-and-white (nor either/or). Take ArA, for example. The science (biochemically/physiologically) shows it should work, anecdotal feedback is overwhelming in favour of its working, and the latest study demonstrates it works. Im not aware, though, of many (any?) Olympic athletes taking it...but, even if they did, this wouldnt negate the fact that ArA supplementation is legal and effective for naturals (or just about anyone with the requisite biological composition).

My intuition is that, beyond some point of athletic development, many natural supps wont do jack for someone. Hence why many are not utilised.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
I dont think it's that 'blatant' or black-and-white (nor either/or). Take ArA, for example. The science (biochemically/physiologically) shows it should work, anecdotal feedback is overwhelming in favour of its working, and the latest study demonstrates it works. Im not aware, though, of many (any?) Olympic athletes taking it...but, even if they did, this wouldnt negate the fact that ArA supplementation is legal and effective for naturals (or just about anyone with the requisite biological composition).
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And maybe ArA does work, but it's going to take some time and more research to determine that. My original point was that new supplements come out, and the marketing/hype ALWAYS precedes the science/results. People jump way too quickly on an ingredient that later on(& more often than not) turns out to be a joke that later supp users laugh at, like some of the stuff floating around in the 80s/90s....which is potentially what has happened here with Amentoflavone.
 
carmaf said:
And maybe ArA does work, but it's going to take some time and more research to determine that. My original point was that new supplements come out, and the marketing/hype ALWAYS precedes the science/results. People jump way too quickly on an ingredient that later on(& more often than not) turns out to be a joke that later supp users laugh at, like some of the stuff floating around in the 80s/90s....which is potentially what has happened here with Amentoflavone.
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I think its possible that youre opinion here is based on a historical myth? I could be wrong myself *shrug*. But anyway, innovation, in the most general sense, would be completely stifled if we had to await some sort of exhaustive results or conclusions that absolutely demonstrated things one way or another (some would say that this standard is an impossible one anyway...see JudoJosh's new thread which deals with human fallibility and falsification).
 
carmaf said:
And maybe ArA does work, but it's going to take some time and more research to determine that. My original point was that new supplements come out, and the marketing/hype ALWAYS precedes the science/results. People jump way too quickly on an ingredient that later on(& more often than not) turns out to be a joke that later supp users laugh at, like some of the stuff floating around in the 80s/90s....which is potentially what has happened here with Amentoflavone.
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There's actually quite a bit of research in favor of ArA
 
Piston Honda said:
There's actually quite a bit of research in favor of ArA
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WELL THEN INJECT IT STRAIGHT INTO MY VEINS!

I agree I am probably too cautious, but I have been burned by the supp industry one too many times in the past.

I would like to get this thread back on topic bc I am curious to know what's the real deal with Amentoflavone?
 
I love anabolicminds but it's sad people going back and forth over a supplement that u can get for 20 bucks! Buy it! If it works for u then u know! If not wow!!! A petty 20 down the drain!!! Smh.......
 
Amentomax 19.99 at np. If that cheap price gonna make or break u. Get out the supplement game!!!
 
Cjg said:
I love anabolicminds but it's sad people going back and forth over a supplement that u can get for 20 bucks! Buy it! If it works for u then u know! If not wow!!! A petty 20 down the drain!!! Smh.......
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For practical purposes, I totally agree with you. There are, however, issues pertaining to knowledge which go beyond mere utility (I would think it good for the growth of knowledge to encourage this type of debate/discussion, particularly where the science is concerned).

Put it this way, I already believe that AMF is effective for me, but Id like to know *how* (by what mechanism).
 
Very true! Science doesn't explain everything sometimes! I've seen 4 blood test showing Arimistane didn't do anything for estrogen yet the same people who had taken it had all signs of lower estrogen! Joints hurt. felt dry. nipples tighter yet no change in estrogen levels. Hmmmmmmmm
 
nattydisaster said:
An example or two include Naringin from grapefruit extract and Resveratrol from red wine, both of which are only orally active when consumed as part of a plant extract.
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Damn insomnia. Argh.

"The oral absorption of resveratrol in humans is about 75% and is thought to occur mainly by transepithelial diffusion. Extensive metabolism in the intestine and liver results in an oral bioavailability considerably less than 1%." So, it appears resveratrol doesn't have bioavailibility issues.

As for naringin, that appears to be typically used as a P-glycoprotein inhibitor to improve drug bioavailibility, but the drugs being used seem to have good bioavailibility in the first place (nolva being one), or at least far better bioavilibility than amentoflavone. Wouldn't this suggest that if something is competing for P-glycoprotein, amentoflavone would end up being a good candidate for P-glycoprotein inhibition since it would have a high affinity to it (I'm presuming it has a high affinity to it thus making bioavailibility an issue in the first place)?

Cjg said:
Very true! Science doesn't explain everything sometimes! I've seen 4 blood test showing Arimistane didn't do anything for estrogen yet the same people who had taken it had all signs of lower estrogen! Joints hurt. felt dry. nipples tighter yet no change in estrogen levels. Hmmmmmmmm
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That could be placebo tbh, placebo would explain that. Blood tests are all telling.
 
kissdadookie said:
"Extensive metabolism in the intestine and liver results in an oral bioavailability considerably less than 1%." So, it appears resveratrol doesn't have bioavailibility issues.

As for naringin, that appears to be typically used as a P-glycoprotein inhibitor to improve drug bioavailibility, but the drugs being used seem to have good bioavailibility in the first place (nolva being one), or at least far better bioavilibility than amentoflavone. Wouldn't this suggest that if something is competing for P-glycoprotein, amentoflavone would end up being a good candidate for P-glycoprotein inhibition since it would have a high affinity to it (I'm presuming it has a high affinity to it thus making bioavailibility an issue in the first place)?



That could be placebo tbh, placebo would explain that. Blood tests are all telling.
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Read what I bolded. Bioavailability is how much makes it into systemic circulation. Bioavailability is NOT absorption.

Naringin is a p-glycoprotein inhibitor BECAUSE it is a substrate for the pump. In other words, this is a great real life example of how extra flavanoids that compete for the pump can jack up the bioavailability of co-ingested flavonoids.

Does that make sense?
 
Cjg said:
Very true! Science doesn't explain everything sometimes! I've seen 4 blood test showing Arimistane didn't do anything for estrogen yet the same people who had taken it had all signs of lower estrogen! Joints hurt. felt dry. nipples tighter yet no change in estrogen levels. Hmmmmmmmm
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It's more of a cortisol supplement.
 
Cjg said:
Very true! Science doesn't explain everything sometimes! I've seen 4 blood test showing Arimistane didn't do anything for estrogen yet the same people who had taken it had all signs of lower estrogen! Joints hurt. felt dry. nipples tighter yet no change in estrogen levels. Hmmmmmmmm
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i think some people who took it who all had the signs of low estrogen and responded well to it most likely didn't have as much bodyfat anyway and might of been much leaner than others taking it, like i can imagine someone 40% bf not seeing anything from that at all
 
Cjg said:
Amentomax 19.99 at np. If that cheap price gonna make or break u. Get out the supplement game!!!
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Seriously, if I spent 20 bucks on every "powdered tree bark/inferior creatine salt/glutamine peptide/oral HGH peptide etc of the month" that turned out to be bunk over the two decades , I'd have been a fool and dropped 1000s (I've only been slightly foolish a dropped 100s on crap :) ). Some onus has to be on the company. Users are far to vulnerable to placebo.

I have no horse in this race, Im enjoying this debate as it unravels here and on other forums, takes me back to the good old forum days.
 
Cjg said:
Very true! Science doesn't explain everything sometimes! I've seen 4 blood test showing Arimistane didn't do anything for estrogen yet the same people who had taken it had all signs of lower estrogen! Joints hurt. felt dry. nipples tighter yet no change in estrogen levels. Hmmmmmmmm
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I dont believe in arimistane either TBH.
Seen 2 bloodworks from my friends and thats enough for me.

I cant fint one study showing how effective it is?or am i wrong?
 
sprintsss said:
I.highly doubt Bolt is an all natural athlete

No way in hell
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Thanks captain obvious,

Do u think these guys are going to risk eligibility on crappy OTC supps that may be cross contaminated with trace amounts of banned substances?

No

Their going to risk it for things that have a much greater reward
 
braskibra said:
Thanks captain obvious,

Do u think these guys are going to risk eligibility on crappy OTC supps that may be cross contaminated with trace amounts of banned substances?

No

Their going to risk it for things that have a much greater reward
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I really don't care to be honest lmao
 
Skigazzi said:
Seriously, if I spent 20 bucks on every "powdered tree bark/inferior creatine salt/glutamine peptide/oral HGH peptide etc of the month" that turned out to be bunk over the two decades , I'd have been a fool and dropped 1000s (I've only been slightly foolish a dropped 100s on crap :) ). Some onus has to be on the company. Users are far to vulnerable to placebo.

I have no horse in this race, Im enjoying this debate as it unravels here and on other forums, takes me back to the good old forum days.
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No, it doesn't

They arent forcing u to do jack

Boo hooooo we shud protect people from being stupid
 
braskibra said:
O nooooo I spent 40 dollars on amentoflavone I shud be able to gives my opinion on itssss!!!!!!

This isn't little sisters of the poor time to get over it
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40 here and there adds up

If you don't care about a simple 40$
Its because you either have your mom and dad buy it for you
Have no family to support and or
Have poor credit and just don't care

I work hard for my money
Seems like you have no concept of the dollar

Your parents should of raised you better
 
braskibra said:
O nooooo I spent 40 dollars on amentoflavone I shud be able to gives my opinion on itssss!!!!!!

This isn't little sisters of the poor time to get over it
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That doesn't include the Dopadex in my room and the 2 in my workplace, the F95,that I keep in my workplace and also the other HV that I keep in my workplace as well .


I have a right to cry, moan, be positive at whatever AS, PES product as I please because I actually spend the money and try them out.

I'm not a cheerleader dik rider like u tho

Just because I support a company don't mean I got to lie on the boards to feel accepted or cool
 
So like I said amento is bunk.

If u dont want to waste 40 bucks get their Dopadex, HV and or F95

Those are my staples from AS-PES
 
Cjg said:
Amentomax 19.99 at np. If that cheap price gonna make or break u. Get out the supplement game!!!
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If i was in the US i would agree, I would try allot more things too.

To buy it here in the Uk it works out about $35, To buy it from the US I need to buy more products in bulk to make it worth it as there is the shipping costs (shipping can be no more than $7 sometimes) but the big problem is customs. The last 5 things I have bought from the US have killed me in customs charges.
 
braskibra said:
O nooooo I spent 40 dollars on amentoflavone I shud be able to gives my opinion on itssss!!!!!!

This isn't little sisters of the poor time to get over it
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No you right no ones forcing anyone to buy products but if they buy it and spend $1 or $500 i still think people should be able to question the products.

(This is not directed at you braskibra)
I don't why people seem to get so defensive over this, This is a supplement forum and I thought this is a place where they could be discussed. All people want is the product to do what we have been told it does, Is this really to much to ask? and i'm not saying its not doing what its supposed to.
 
DarthGainer said:
No you right no ones forcing anyone to buy products but if they buy it and spend $1 or $500 i still think people should be able to question the products.

(This is not directed at you braskibra)
I don't why people seem to get so defensive over this, This is a supplement forum and I thought this is a place where they could be discussed. All people want is the product to do what we have been told it does, Is this really to much to ask? and i'm not saying its not doing what its supposed to.
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That's not the point of my post, the point is sprintss continually is crying over spilled milk, wahhhh i spent 40 dollars and it didnt work

Give your opinion for example, "i didn't derive any benefits from supplementing amentoflavone" and move on

In regards to ingredients that do not have much data to extrapolate from then yes sometimes it is too much to ask. It always come back to you as the consumer to make your own decision
 
sprintsss said:
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Invalid Link Removed

That doesn't include the Dopadex in my room and the 2 in my workplace, the F95,that I keep in my workplace and also the other HV that I keep in my workplace as well .


I have a right to cry, moan, be positive at whatever AS, PES product as I please because I actually spend the money and try them out.

I'm not a cheerleader dik rider like u tho

Just because I support a company don't mean I got to lie on the boards to feel accepted or cool
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cry-me-a-river_o_183875.jpg


cool story bro, do you mind telling it again
 
braskibra said:
Give your opinion for example, "i didn't derive any benefits from supplementing amentoflavone" and move on

In regards to ingredients that do not have much data to extrapolate from then yes sometimes it is too much to ask. It always come back to you as the consumer to make your own decision
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We all take decision to try products which have no studies showing it works at all.
It will allways be like that.
A wise man on this forum learned me that even those who are"pushing" ingredients which have no data to support any benefits in humans, many do that because they really believe in that / those ingredient(s). They personaly believe it works and i do understand that. Its easy to say "****..this and that company is/are trying to fool us"

Cooper is a guy full of knowledge. Does he push Amento? I more believe he BELIEVE self in amento and he believe it works.

Does it mean Amento is working? Not at all!
But i dont think he is promoting amento because he want to fool people .

For me amento did not worked at 120mg.
Personaly I support N_H on amento but maybe time will show abother story. Maybe a study will show that amento really works, or it works in higher dosage etc
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Read what I bolded. Bioavailability is how much makes it into systemic circulation. Bioavailability is NOT absorption.

Naringin is a p-glycoprotein inhibitor BECAUSE it is a substrate for the pump. In other words, this is a great real life example of how extra flavanoids that compete for the pump can jack up the bioavailability of co-ingested flavonoids.

Does that make sense?
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Good catch on the resveratrol.

To the second point, wouldn't the high polar nature of amentoflavone make it even more susceptible to get effluxed? What other constituents in amentomax or St. John's Wort would have more affinity to p-glycoprotein?
 
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